GUE Membership

[Aquamaniac]

With the recent airing of The Britannic Mission by the illustrious GUE and the attention it seemed to get, I feel it may be a poignant time to ask how many of us ARE members.
For just $100 you can do your bit in supporting GUE. With the amount we spend on gear, it’s a drop in the ocean (pun intended). And you get a really cool t-shirt!!
So if your not a member, get off ya butt and fill in the forms, its a wealth of information and worth every cent.

Dave

[omar]

Oh yes by all means you must join GUE. What other opportunity will you get to subsidize other peoples diving and an unnamed "nonprofit research entity". (directly from their web site)

Until I see a demonstrated benefit to the "Diving Community" as a whole from GUE like they claim to be effecting, I believe that it would be more beneficial to express and support more rigorous standards than to join at the $100 or more level.

omar

[MikeFerrara]

This is a conversation I have tried to have with several people and got nothing but insults every time. I am a member of the NACD and the NSS-CDS. These organization make obviouse (to me) contributions to the cave diving community (me), so I pitch in. They actively work toward increasing access to caves. The NSS even owns access to several. There are many research projects sponsored by each of these organizations that have clear benefits both to cave divers and the community. Just go to cave country, pick up any cave map and see who the survey team members are. Having my NSS-CDS membership card gets me into some wonderful caves. If there are such benefits to being a GUE member I have not been able to find out about them. I know it is a seperate organization (but there is certainly a relationship) but the WKPP and specificaly GI seems more interested in gaining exclusive access for themselves. It seems counterproductive to fund them. And the cost is much higher than the other organzations.

[padiscubapro]

Mike,
I second that.. I don't do much cave diving theses days (Its probably been over 2 years now) but I still continue to support the NSS-CDS.. There is clear evidence on the good they do from protecting public access to cleaning up locations and making them more accessable.. Send your money to a worthy organization who has clearly benefited the community and can show it..
What kind of research has this unamed gue not for profit organizaton done?? who else has it benefitted?? They should let people see the books if they want funds...

[Scubaroo]

padiscubapro once bubbled...
What kind of research has this unamed gue not for profit organizaton done?? who else has it benefitted?? They should let people see the books if they want funds... Erm, expeditions to the Britannic spring to mind, to determine the real cause of what sunk a hospital ship in WW1 with loss of 30 lives... the expedition had specific goals such as determining if illegal munitions were being smuggled on the ship by the British Government of the time, whether watertight doors were sealed or not.... did you watch the documentary?

I'm not a member though.

[MikeFerrara]

bengiddins once bubbled...
Erm, expeditions to the Britannic spring to mind, to determine the real cause of what sunk a hospital ship in WW1 with loss of 30 lives... the expedition had specific goals such as determining if illegal munitions were being smuggled on the ship by the British Government of the time, whether watertight doors were sealed or not.... did you watch the documentary?

I'm not a member though.

We dive wrecks in the Great Lakes where hundreds of lives were lost. There are uncountable unsolved mysteries of historical value associated many of these wrecks. Would you help me pay for next seasons dives? Well the Brtannic is deeper and more sensational but more historicly significant? A greater tragedy in terms of loss of life? Something I am willing to pay for? You do it.

The GUE is a cave/tech certification agency/org. I am a cave diver. I haven't found a benefit to me or the cave community. Research? I have had trouble finding anything that even comes close to what the other organizations are doing. I don't know about their official policy but some of their members seem to want to keep the rest of us out of the caves. I can't pay for that.

[tombiowami]

I would suggest just calling them up and asking what research they do.

Tommy

[MikeFerrara]

Why? I didn't have to call the NSS or the NACD to figure out what it was they would do for me as a member or what they have done for cave diving. Are you a member? If you are, why did you join? What do you feel you have gained from it?

[eramosakarst]

I am also a member of the NSS-CDS{just renewed after a hiatus}I do not remember such exclusiveness springing from the NSS or The Nacd.Cave diving was available to those who were interested in caving but in a subtle-mentoring way.I respect this way of thinking and I do not agree with the mainstreaming of cave diving as certain organizations have begun to market this.The NSS is low profile to the masses{for a reason}And they are PRIMARILY INTERESTED IN CAVES not the bottom line/bragging rights.I know what the NSS has done for ALL cavers dry and wet and I know that They do this with a pure love for CAVES!I am not against new techniques being shared and I cannot take away amazing accomplishments but I DO NOT LIKE the mentality springing forth these days.perhaps it is more evident to me because i have been out for a while but I see such unprofessoinalism being displayed by certain followers.The NSS would never think of belittling a prospective caver due to poor choices/technique IE STROKES -they would mentor this individual with an eye on progression.After all who invented this stuff?and who trained A lot of GUE?{pre-gue} Sorry I just get po'd at some people that push stuff simply because they said so rather than we discussed this and this is the best approach.This is by no means an attack on the poster of this thread.

[AquaTec]

I have always been a little leary of joining an organisation without knowing what they are doing with the money.

I was in cave country this last summer, and after returning i emediatly joined the NACD.

They are mapping, and providing maps, they are sponsering park clean ups.

I left there with a general feeling that they were doing a lot for the caves and the cave comunity down there. so i am happy to support them.

Tell me what is the WKRP doing fro the general cave divers, the caves, etc [this is not a troll] i simply do not know.
can i go dive in the caves they are diving in

[AquaTec]

i forgot a picture

Thanks NACD

[detroit diver]

Hey guys,

GUE and the WKPP are two different organizations. George Irvine may advocate (albeit agressively) for DIR, but he has nothing to do with GUE.

I bought an upgraded membership because of the access it gives to certain parts of the website, the quest list, and discounts on Halycon gear. I think it's worth the money.

You couldn't pay to get into the WKPP:) (although I"d love to!)

[eramosakarst]

i realize they are different organizations but my experience has been that some GUE followers have become fervent in a GI way.I dont feel being elitist is productive but I know J. Jablonski contributes to the NSS as A major member.

[detroit diver]

eramosakarst once bubbled...
i realize they are different organizations but my experience has been that some GUE followers have become fervent in a GI way.I dont feel being elitist is productive but I know J. Jablonski contributes to the NSS as A major member.

Of course. You'll find extremes in every group.

[ElectricZombie]

detroit diver once bubbled...

and discounts on Halycon gear




How much of a discount do you get? Need to get some stuff from them...might be worth my effort to join.

[dmdalton]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...




How much of a discount do you get? Need to get some stuff from them...might be worth my effort to join.

Discount varies (I think) based on membership level. Check the membership level pages on their site. It used to be better than it is now. When I first joined, I paid $50 and got a coupon for $50 off gear purchase over $300. I needed some stuff so I got my membership for free. Then someone did the math and changed the deal! Then they did away with the $50 membership ( the lowest level at which you get a printed copy of their mag) and made the bottom $100. I dropped to the electronic membership level for $29.95 and can download the mag and print it out. They do have about the best info I have seen reported on deco, O2 window and such. Beats the heck out of Advanced Diver & Imersed which are more "coffee table" magazines (in my never to be humble opinion). I'm willing to pay for the mag but not their exploration.

Dave D

[detroit diver]

It depends on the level that you join in on. Here's from their site:


Individuals interested in becoming integral elements of an organization committed to setting new standards of diving excellence-in diver education, in global underwater exploration, and in the defense of the aquatic environment and its inhabitants-can become members of GUE and help it realize its singular vision. Besides being responsible for a diving revolution that will forever transform the face of diving, membership entitles individual members to an ever-growing list of benefits; these are listed below and vary according to one's degree of participation. Please contact GUE for information regarding exciting forthcoming benefits or for how to add your company's services to this list of resources.

Membership categories
Electronic Membership
$29

5% discount on all GUE purchases
Online subscription to DIR/Quest through www.dirquest.com. This revolutionary journal will redefine the dissemination of diving information with quarterly issues and a dynamic electronic presence.
Membership at this level also includes a subscription to the private quest@gue.com mailing list, a moderated forum bringing together the world's top divers, environmentalists, and fitness experts. You will also have access to the online archive of quest@gue.com through our DirQuest site.

Silver Membership
$100

5% discount on all GUE purchases
High quality cotton GUE T-shirt
Subscription to DIR/Quest. This revolutionary journal will redefine the dissemination of diving information with quarterly issues and a dynamic electronic presence. Subscription also includes access to the DIR/Quest Online.
Membership at this level also includes a subscription to the private GUE mailing list, a moderated forum bringing together the world's top divers, environmentalists, and fitness experts. You will also have access to the online archive of quest@gue.com through our DirQuest site.

Gold Membership
$250

10% discount on all GUE purchases
High quality cotton GUE T-shirt
Subscription to DIR/Quest. This revolutionary journal will redefine the dissemination of diving information with quarterly issues and a dynamic electronic presence. Subscription also includes access to the DIR/Quest Online.
Membership at this level also includes a subscription to the private GUE mailing list, a moderated forum bringing together the world's top divers, environmentalists, and fitness experts. You will also have access to the online archive of quest@gue.com through our DirQuest site.
Guaranteed spot on a yearly exclusive dive trip with GUE exploration divers to a dive location of interest to the membership (e.g., Scapa Flow, Yucatan caves, Brazilian caves, Baltic Sea); members are responsible for their own expenses. These trips will run each year around springtime (depending on environmental conditions). Plans for 2001 are being laid out for a trip to the Yucatan.

Platinum Membership
$1000

20% discount on all GUE purchases
High quality cotton GUE T-shirt
Subscription to DIR/Quest. This revolutionary journal will redefine the dissemination of diving information with quarterly issues and a dynamic electronic presence. Subscription also includes access to the DIR/Quest Online.
Membership at this level also includes a subscription to the private GUE mailing list, a moderated forum bringing together the world's top divers, environmentalists, and fitness experts. You will also have access to the online archive of quest@gue.com through our DirQuest site.
Guaranteed spot on a yearly exclusive dive trip with GUE exploration divers to a dive location of interest to the membership (e.g., Scapa Flow, Yucatan caves, Brazilian caves, Baltic Sea); members are responsible for their own expenses. These trips will run each year around springtime (depending on environmental conditions). Plans for 2001 are being laid out for a trip to the Yucatan.
2 days of diving with GUE's top divers and instructors, including GUE's President Jarrod Jablonski. Participants may structure their time in the areas they are most interested in improving.

[ckharlan66]

I have been concidering joining but my question for those of you who are member is does the discount that is mentioned apply to Halcyon gear or is it only for GUE materials?

Thanks

Chad

[AquaTec]

and in the defense of the aquatic environment and its inhabitants-can
an anybody elaberate on this

[detroit diver]

ckharlan66 once bubbled...
I have been concidering joining but my question for those of you who are member is does the discount that is mentioned apply to Halcyon gear or is it only for GUE materials?

Thanks

Chad

Chad,

It used to be available for Halcyon stuff, but I'm really not sure anymore. I used it for my DIRF class this year.

Go to www.gue.com and ask them directly. They've changed some of the perks over the years, and the web site still shows some 2001 dates (see my post above). I'd contact them to find out what's current.

For those with the money, the opportunity to dive with this group, and JJ, would be well worth it.

[ckharlan66]

DD,

Thanks for the reply. I hadn't even though about using it for DIRF, but I am taking it in the Spring and that would be a plus. I will contact them and see what they have to say.

Chad

[ckharlan66]

I emailed GUE and got a response already, gosh those guy are even working on Sunday.

The discount only applies to GUE products.

Chad

[detroit diver]

I knew their service was outstanding, but I wouldn't have thought you'd find them today!!!

[ckharlan66]

I was expecting it to be Tuesday before I got a response.

Chad

[ckharlan66]

I sent another email to see if it applied to training or to materials only and the response was materials only.

Chad

[tombiowami]

I am not exactly sure what they do, I joined the lowest tier just to get access to the Quest Forum. I have discussed with my buddies how useful it is and I doubt I would rejoin just for them. There are some good divers on there willing to share good info, but it is not like they are unaccessible off of the GUE site either.

In our DIR Fund class JJ made mention of another forum that would be moderated by an instructor and geared toward newer divers or those just learning about GUE techniques but nothing has materialized yet.

Quest discourse is a step or so above techdiver IMO but not by much.

Tommy

[O-ring]

But, since they are often lumped together by people, we can look at them together. I don't know what they are doing with caves, but I know they sponsored a coastal cleanup in Florida this year.

It doesn't really matter, IMHO, because what they are doing every day is worth every penny of GUE membership. I attended a talk by Bruce Wienke earlier this season about RGBM, deco, deep stops, etc. and guess where he got the data he was using in his examples - WKPP and GUE (specifically JJ's profile data). The work done by the WKPP and GUE on furthering the science of decompression is something that affects us all and they have also been instrumental in testing the RGBM model. The guys from Duke follow them around and run tests on them all the time - doppler, etc.

[Divesherpa]

As a side note,
For those of you who want to join another group, here's a great opportunity.
Dive Sherpa Enterprises or DSE.
You can provide my associates and I the material backing to continue our Telford Survey Project. As this benefits all cave divers, you can send goods (survey markers, new software, etc...) to any of us. We will take your money, but will make no promises as to how it will be spent (British Deco). WE also accept gift certificates for top-offs, O2, and T bottles of He, O2, or Ar.
If you have a damaged scooter, we will take it and use what we can for our survey.


We are also in dire need of a compressor and a Haskel.
Anyone interested can PM me and I'll send you our addresses.

You can't write it off, but you can help with the survey.

:dieputer:

[MikeFerrara]

Divesherpa once bubbled...
As a side note,
For those of you who want to join another group, here's a great opportunity.
Dive Sherpa Enterprises or DSE.
You can provide my associates and I the material backing to continue our Telford Survey Project. As this benefits all cave divers, you can send goods (survey markers, new software, etc...) to any of us. We will take your money, but will make no promises as to how it will be spent (British Deco). WE also accept gift certificates for top-offs, O2, and T bottles of He, O2, or Ar.
If you have a damaged scooter, we will take it and use what we can for our survey.


We are also in dire need of a compressor and a Haskel.
Anyone interested can PM me and I'll send you our addresses.

You can't write it off, but you can help with the survey.

:dieputer:

After due consideration I have decided that I can also apply British deco to my own Telford explorations so joining your organization is more worthwhile so...sign me up.

He in Telford?

[O-ring]

Speaking of GUE, what's the deal with the bent diver on the Brittanic project...and something about an instructor getting bent? Is GUE covering up instances of their members/instructors getting bent?

[detroit diver]

It was supposedly a support diver that did a bounce dive to 100 ft on his own. Not sanctioned by the expedition.

If you do something stupid, you're going to pay for it. That, and diving is an inexact science.

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring,
Where did you hear about this. This is the first I heard. Tell me more!

[O-ring]

Not sure what it means...yet. I just heard on some other lists (techdiver, quest) that a GUE support diver got bent on the Brittanic trip (I also heard it explained like DD posted above). That might not mean much...I haven't heard anything about the instructor though...was hoping someone here had heard more than I had.

As for the support diver getting bent...they should be upfront about it. Nobody will be surprised or give them a lot of crap over someone getting bent...shoot, I remember them talking about having to get out of the water and run laps to "get some good bubbles going" so the Duke guys could get some useful data. If they are hiding it...that would look pretty bad, IMHO.

[detroit diver]

O-ring once bubbled...
Not sure what it means...yet. I just heard on some other lists (techdiver, quest) that a GUE support diver got bent on the Brittanic trip (I also heard it explained like DD posted above). That might not mean much...I haven't heard anything about the instructor though...was hoping someone here had heard more than I had.

As for the support diver getting bent...they should be upfront about it. Nobody will be surprised or give them a lot of crap over someone getting bent...shoot, I remember them talking about having to get out of the water and run laps to "get some good bubbles going" so the Duke guys could get some useful data. If they are hiding it...that would look pretty bad, IMHO.

If you read the quest post, then you must have missed this response, which I think is very appropriate:


> I had a prostate infection a couple months ago, and
> failed to mention it on
> the list until now. Do I owe you all an apology
> because I "covered it
> up"? No, because it's none of your damn business.
>
> Folks who get bent are free to mention it or not.
> It's their body. You
> have no "right" to their medical information, and
> this notion that there is
> a cover up is ludicrous.
>
> George, GUE, and others given people more than
> enough information to go on
> with respect to avoiding DCS. Don't bounce, don't
> dive with a shunt, don't
> let yourself get hypothermic, use the right mixes,
> take the right gas
> breaks, do the right deep stops, etc. You don't
> need a list of who ignored
> these things to learn them yourself. These feeble
> attempts to personalize
> the subject serve no purpose other than gossip.
>

[O-ring]

If you read the quest post, then you must have missed this response, which I think is very appropriate:
..My counterpoint was just that I thought they might want us to learn from it. I can understand people wanting to keep their medical records private though...

[MikeFerrara]

Every DCS case is another point of data. We don't need the name of the diver. This privacy argument is BS.

[detroit diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Every DCS case is another point of data. We don't need the name of the diver. This privacy argument is BS.

Not BS at all. If the diver asked not to disclose the info, that's up to him. We don't know otherwise.

If you want to find out about bounce dives and the problems associated with them, go to www.wkpp.org and look for

"Why we dont' bounce dive in the WKPP"

[MikeFerrara]

I of course read that long ago. That little diddy is no substutute for data. The one thing we really are lacking in our understanding of decompression is DATA. As I said nobody wants the divers name. Profiles and other relevant facts are what is important. You know the kind of stuff DAN tries to get. Only when it comes to technical diving we are really lacking data because so few dives are done as compared to recreational dives.

Anyone as devoted to the understanding of decompression science as they claim to be should be upfront with the data that they have.

You can disagree or ignore me or tell me to F-off but please please stop with the "If you want to know go read the web-site junk". I think we get too many of those answer around here (usually from the ones who's entire knowledge base on the subject is that website).

If you are envolved in technical diving do yourself a favor and don't trust your life to little write-ups on websites. Or... we can tell DAN to protect everyones privacy by dumping their data base and everyone can just read Georges diddies on the website.

[AquaTec]

Why you don't offer names, and you don't advertise the event

It demenstrates that something went wrong on the expidition.
the name proves that something went wrong and provides a point of refference to discuss what went wrong.

by not advertising it, or mentioning any names then the promotors can simply use the excuse that hey you can get bent any time...this is a poor excuse. 99% of bends are due to some known fact or procedure not being adheared to.
but others do not have a victim to discuss, without a name

one last reason is because the diver was probably DIR.
this would allow everybody against their method of decompression to jump on them and use it as an example.

this would not be the case if it was a TDI diver. so you must appreciate the hesitation.

of couse they do have a hard time backing up any of their theories, so you certainly don;t want to advertise that people are getting bent using them.

[detroit diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I of course read that long ago. That little diddy is no substutute for data. The one thing we really are lacking in our understanding of decompression is DATA. As I said nobody wants the divers name. Profiles and other relevant facts are what is important. You know the kind of stuff DAN tries to get. Only when it comes to technical diving we are really lacking data because so few dives are done as compared to recreational dives.

Anyone as devoted to the understanding of decompression science as they claim to be should be upfront with the data that they have.

You can disagree or ignore me or tell me to F-off but please please stop with the "If you want to know go read the web-site junk". I think we get too many of those answer around here (usually from the ones who's entire knowledge base on the subject is that website).

If you are envolved in technical diving do yourself a favor and don't trust your life to little write-ups on websites. Or... we can tell DAN to protect everyones privacy by dumping their data base and everyone can just read Georges diddies on the website.

Actually, I hadn't thought of telling you to f-off, but if you want..

I'm sorry you didn't like the reference to the web page. I don't have a list of what you've read and what you haven't. If you send it to me, I'll peruse that list before offering the info later. And when you know how much that I do or don't know, then you can tell me where my knowledge has come from.

I thought that that link was one of the best explanations of bounce diving that I had seen. And because this team has had a ton of problems with it in the past, they have the data to back it up and the reasons that they don't allow it.

If some of the agencies that had the data would actually release it for public consumption, we would all be better off. But that's another thread...

[MikeFerrara]

No decompression method that we know of is perfect. Nobody knows that much and if they say they do they are not to be trusted. If the diver was bent following their procedures the information is usefull.

On the other hand if the diver was not following their procedures on an expedition it may indicates a real breakdown in the system that is supposed to avoid that. When you put yourself in the limelight (and if anyone has they have) you are under the microscope. IMO, They have willingly given up any right to privacy when it comes to their methods and procedures. Why? because they have openly claimed that they know more and do it right. Because of their claims there are divers who have abandoned more proven methods in favor of theirs. They should get the whole story. They come out and say that all the deco theory we have learned from others is total nonsense. If they get bent then maybe not.



DD,
As far as what I have read...They told us not to do bounce dives way back in my own OW class.

[O-ring]

...I have to agree wholeheartedly with this statement.


On the other hand if the diver was not following their procedures on an expedition it may indicates a real breakdown in the system that is supposed to avoid that. When you put yourself in the limelight (and if anyone has they have) you are under the microscope. IMO, They have willingly given up any right to privacy when it comes to their methods and procedures. Why? because they have openly claimed that they know more and do it right. Because of their claims there are divers who have abandoned more proven methods in favor of theirs. They should get the whole story. They come out and say that all the deco theory we have learned from others is total nonsense. If they get bent then maybe not.

Good words, Mike..

[TCDiver1]

It seems, from what i'm reading here, that GUE has been less than willing to divulge details of what actually happened on this incident. I apologize in advance if thats not true since this thread is all i've personally read about this incident.

With that said i gotta agree with Mike, the who is unimportant. The answers to what, how & where is important and very hard to obtain useful data for further study and understanding of DCS. If GUE has passed all that info. on then my opinion of them goes up. If they didn't then, IMO, they are apparently not as serious about pushing for safe diving as they claim to be.

I hear and read all the time on this board that arrogance is not in the GUE/DIR code and is just the normal wacked minority you get with any group. IMO it would be very selfish and arrogant to not share this info for futher study. It could help the diving community as a whole which is what i thought GUE was all about.

[MikeFerrara]

A little more...

I'm not trying to insult anyone and I opologize if I was a little gruff with DD.

This decompression stuff is not simple or clear cut. There have been many studies and theories abound. The problem is many of the theories conflict. When you get right down to it YOU decide what methods you have confidence in and use them. If you get bent you were wrong. Good deco is deco that works.

At the risk of being flame (like that has ever bothered me) the IANTD "Technical Diving Encyclopedia" sumerises and lists more studies than I have ever seen mentioned in one place. The book presents theory and counter theory and their sources. While they admit much of it is just theory they use the info to derive some basic do's and don'ts of decompression. I don't care much for the book as a text but it has some really good info in it when it comes to phisiology and decompression.

Anyone interested in these kinds of dives really needs to look at all this stuff. Don't just read one book and don't listen to just one person.

Deep stops are looking good. Taking advantage of the O2 window is SOP. Models like VPM and RGBM show promis. Then there are other things being presented as fact that seem pretty far fetched with little or no scientific validation and in some cases just the oposit.

The same is true for other aspects of diving.

[TCDiver1]

Mike,

How about the infinite variable? The human body. Great advances have been made in understanding the causes of DCS in the last 30 years but like medicine our understanding of the human body and how it react to certain things is still rudimentary.

People don't like to hear things like that but it's very true.

Valid hard data and study of same will be the only way to find that silver bullet if there is one.

[O-ring]

How about the infinite variable? The human body. Great advances have been made in understanding the causes of DCS in the last 30 years but like medicine our understanding of the human body and how it react to certain things is still rudimentary.

People don't like to hear things like that but it's very true.
I think that is one of the dangers with following WKPP/GUE deco "to the letter". If you have ever met those guys, chances are they are in much better shape than you are. Jarrod doesn't have an ounce of fat on him and George practically lives in the gym. These are not your "typical" diver specimens.

[TCDiver1]

O-ring once bubbled...

I think that is one of the dangers with following WKPP/GUE deco "to the letter". If you have ever met those guys, chances are they are in much better shape than you are. Jarrod doesn't have an ounce of fat on him and George practically lives in the gym. These are not your "typical" diver specimens. Yup, and i wish i was in that good of shape but hey, i'm working on it.:bonk:

Seriously, unfortunately it's not reasonable to expect that level of fitness in the average diver. That is the problem with the Navy tables. They built the tables using young, relatively fit divers.

Aging, is a slow, gradual shunting process by itself. How's that for a PC way to say it's easy to put on a few pounds and corrode your arteries a little each year?

[MikeFerrara]

gedunk once bubbled...
Mike,

How about the infinite variable? The human body. Great advances have been made in understanding the causes of DCS in the last 30 years but like medicine our understanding of the human body and how it react to certain things is still rudimentary.

People don't like to hear things like that but it's very true.

Valid hard data and study of same will be the only way to find that silver bullet if there is one.

Good point. I don't think there is a silver bullet. I think there are a bunch of silver bullets and if you line them up just right your ok. If you have too many out of place you get what's behind door number three.

[detroit diver]

These are the folks actually using and interpreting the data. It cerainly is good enough for me.


I have found all the members of the WKPP and GUE to be more than helpful and honest about past decompression concerns. We have been working on our decompression data collection and reporting system for a long time.
The inputs from the members regarding ALL aspects of their past medical histories have made this effort exceptionally easy.


Once in place and approved by the Duke IRB, all dives done in the WKP will be reported as de-identified outcome data. I would feel like I have wasted an incredible amount of time, energy, and resources if anyone was trying to cover anything up.


Todd is 100% correct about the gossip. It serves no useful purpose.


Take care,
G


Gene Hobbs, CHT
Medical Simulation Coordinator
Human Simulation and Patient Safety Center
Center for Hyperbaric Medicine and
Environmental Physiology
DUMC Box 3437
Durham, NC 27710
919/684.3661 Lab
919/970.1311 Pager

[O-ring]

detroit diver once bubbled...
These are the folks actually using and interpreting the data. It cerainly is good enough for me.


I have found all the members of the WKPP and GUE to be more than helpful and honest about past decompression concerns. We have been working on our decompression data collection and reporting system for a long time.
The inputs from the members regarding ALL aspects of their past medical histories have made this effort exceptionally easy.


Once in place and approved by the Duke IRB, all dives done in the WKP will be reported as de-identified outcome data. I would feel like I have wasted an incredible amount of time, energy, and resources if anyone was trying to cover anything up.


Todd is 100% correct about the gossip. It serves no useful purpose.[/b]
Yeah, I met Hobbs once and he seemed like a really good guy...maybe chickdiver will come into this thread and a couple of others and straighten us out...

:hiding:

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver,

Your not still mad are ya?
i have another question though (for anyone who could answer). I can't help it honest. These things just keep popping into my head.

Was it a solo bounce dive?

[Iguana Don]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
detroit diver,

Your not still mad are ya?
i have another question though (for anyone who could answer). I can't help it honest. These things just keep popping into my head.

Was it a solo bounce dive?

A dive down to some extreme depth (solo) for the mere fact of going to that depth. You are just there long enough to record that depth. Also means his buddy has more brains than he does.

[detroit diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
detroit diver,

Your not still mad are ya?
i have another question though (for anyone who could answer). I can't help it honest. These things just keep popping into my head.

Was it a solo bounce dive?

I originally read your question as "What is a solo bounce dive"! Therefore the answer below.

I have no idea if it was solo or not.


Nah, just a little surprised at your comments.

Well, you know what a bounce dive is, so we won't go there. And you know what solo diving is, so we won't go there.

I'm guessing this guy's not on the team anymore...or maybe he wasn't part of the team in the first place.

[MikeFerrara]

I get a little blunt and even sarcastic sometimes. But in all seriousness, I am concerned about the fact that a certain person presents himselfe as the leading expert on this stuff (and he comes out and says so) and some believe it just because he says so. The WKPP dives are relatively small in number and limited in range of profiles. Some of the things this guy presents as facts are hardly proven as such. In fact some of these theories are not backed by anyone else (like his endorsement of reverse profiles).

There have been many groups who have come up with rule of thumb deco procedures that worked for the dives they were doing but none yet has turned out to be the Holly Grail.


How often do we see someone running around saying how they don't need tables, comuters or software all you have to do is research the Quest list. Even GUE doesn't teach it that way but divers read this stuff and go diving. They might not need tables but if they get off the net and do any real dives they may need a chamber. We had a guy here just the other day spouting off that exact line.

[chickdiver]

You say that WKPP dives are "relatively small in number and limited in range of profiles", I beg to differ. WKPP has compiled THOUSANDS of man hours of dives inprofiles ranging from those of support divers spending several hours at 30' and shallower to Trey and JJ's extreme exploration dives. The project has been ongoing for over 10 years, that equates to a LOT of diving. The dives may not always be conducted in the public's view at Wakulla Springs, but they are occuring- pretty much every weekend of the year.

RE: Endorsement of reverse profiles- Unless my memory is COMPLETELY gone- DAN has now retracted the old "dont do reverse profiles" adage. Please correct me if I am mistaken here.

How often do people read (barely) discussions on lists such as these and decide that they know what they are doing? I am specifically referring to people reading that the DIR methos does not use computers for deco. Nothing could be farther from the truth. DIR does not promote the use of DIVE Computers because the algorythms are less than optimal. However, the use of computer generated TABLES is correct.

The problem is not necessarily in the information, but rather in people doing theier own interprestation without the full scope of data.

[Aquamaniac]

chickdiver once bubbled...
You say that WKPP dives are "relatively small in number and limited in range of profiles", I beg to differ. WKPP has compiled THOUSANDS of man hours of dives inprofiles ranging from those of support divers spending several hours at 30' and shallower to Trey and JJ's extreme exploration dives. The project has been ongoing for over 10 years, that equates to a LOT of diving. The dives may not always be conducted in the public's view at Wakulla Springs, but they are occuring- pretty much every weekend of the year.

RE: Endorsement of reverse profiles- Unless my memory is COMPLETELY gone- DAN has now retracted the old "dont do reverse profiles" adage. Please correct me if I am mistaken here.

How often do people read (barely) discussions on lists such as these and decide that they know what they are doing? I am specifically referring to people reading that the DIR methos does not use computers for deco. Nothing could be farther from the truth. DIR does not promote the use of DIVE Computers because the algorythms are less than optimal. However, the use of computer generated TABLES is correct.

The problem is not necessarily in the information, but rather in people doing theier own interprestation without the full scope of data.


Is that you Pina?;)

[MikeFerrara]

chickdiver once bubbled...

RE: Endorsement of reverse profiles- Unless my memory is COMPLETELY gone- DAN has now retracted the old "dont do reverse profiles" adage. Please correct me if I am mistaken here.



This is common misinformation. They did say reverse profiles are ok (no evidence that they're not) for no-stop dives above 130 ft with a range of depths less than 40 ft. They said no such thing with regard to technical dives. BRW has been kind enough to clerify that on this board.

After the report came out some of the dive magazines took off printing pieces saying it was now ok to dive reverse profiles. Then we had folks running around saying it was because of computers.

[TCDiver1]

detroit diver once bubbled...
These are the folks actually using and interpreting the data. It cerainly is good enough for me.


I have found all the members of the WKPP and GUE to be more than helpful and honest about past decompression concerns. We have been working on our decompression data collection and reporting system for a long time.
The inputs from the members regarding ALL aspects of their past medical histories have made this effort exceptionally easy.


Once in place and approved by the Duke IRB, all dives done in the WKP will be reported as de-identified outcome data. I would feel like I have wasted an incredible amount of time, energy, and resources if anyone was trying to cover anything up.


Todd is 100% correct about the gossip. It serves no useful purpose.


Take care,
G


Gene Hobbs, CHT
Medical Simulation Coordinator
Human Simulation and Patient Safety Center
Center for Hyperbaric Medicine and
Environmental Physiology
DUMC Box 3437
Durham, NC 27710
919/684.3661 Lab
919/970.1311 Pager
Thanks DD. Not sure who you think was gossiping, it certainly wasn't my intent, nor do i think it was others on this thread.

Sounds like WKPP & GUE are cooperating with DAN fully which will only help all divers in the long run. Certainly a good thing!

However, and maybe i'm just dense for asking this question but i don't see how the correspondence from DAN answered it.

Do you know if the DCS incident in question was reported to DAN?
This is an honest question with no intent to degrade GUE in anyway unless they did not report it.

[detroit diver]

I have no idea if it was reported or not.

[wb416]

DD,
If you are going to cross-post from the Quest list, you should:

a) clearly delineate your editorial comments from those of the cross-post,

b) provide a background context of the post that you are cut/pasting. It often has a myriad of facets due to the environment the original post was made in. Those seeing the cross-post don't have the benefit of the rest of the thread you chose to leave out.

IMHO, you are better off to avoid the cross-posting and just paraphrase what you've read from there. If you paraphrase, you need only be prepared to "defend" your interpretation of what you've read. If you quote, you have to "defend" what "they" said. With the nature of the threads on Quest, I'm guessing you'll do better to avoid cross-posting "sound-bites".

A general comment that I would toss out for thought, not necessarily directed at you or this thread, is that a true grasp of a topic lies not in understanding what your have read, but in how well you can explain and lead someone else to an understanding of what you've read.

respectfully,
wb (Bob)

[detroit diver]

cwb once bubbled...
DD,
If you are going to cross-post from the Quest list, you should:

a) clearly delineate your editorial comments from those of the cross-post,

b) provide a background context of the post that you are cut/pasting. It often has a myriad of facets due to the environment the original post was made in. Those seeing the cross-post don't have the benefit of the rest of the thread you chose to leave out.

IMHO, you are better off to avoid the cross-posting and just paraphrase what you've read from there. If you paraphrase, you need only be prepared to "defend" your interpretation of what you've read. If you quote, you have to "defend" what "they" said. With the nature of the threads on Quest, I'm guessing you'll do better to avoid cross-posting "sound-bites".

A general comment that I would toss out for thought, not necessarily directed at you or this thread, is that a true grasp of a topic lies not in understanding what your have read, but in how well you can explain and lead someone else to an understanding of what you've read.

respectfully,
wb (Bob)

If you're referring to the Gene Hobbs quote,

a. I did seperate his quote from mine with bold typeface.

b. This quote had everything to do with the direction of this thread.

I don't need to defend Gene Hobbs information. In fact, I find an experts comments to be more valid than trying to interpret what I believe they said. His post spoke for itself.