Vr3

[lucid]

I am thinking about purchasing a VR3 this week. I did a search and found a lot of negative things about this computer. I also noticed that most of the negative posts where old and there are very few new ones. I contacted OMS and they said that most of the issues that where found in earlier models have been ironed out. Now questions for people that own this computer;

1) Has the computer improved?
2) Are the software downloads and other upgrades that where supposed to be "out in the later part of 2002" actually being made available?
3) Have you used the computer as an oxygen analyzer?

Please give me any feedback you can.

Thanks

Nathan Swafford

[MechDiver]

I've been looking at the VR3 for awhile. According to folks at DEMA, buttom problems are still there. Also, OMS appears to stretch the facts when dealing with features that are actually in place.

Biggest problem, price apparently has skyrocketed. Almost $2000 for OC trimix version, and that doesn't include software or IR link. IMO they have priced themselves out of consideration.

Phil

[padiscubapro]

I have the new VR3 ccr/trimix version.. I don't have the latest software, since I was told I'd have to pay for the software upgrade..
My biggest complaints are the buttons stick, and the display is too damn small, but I haven't had any failures yet like otherss I have heard.
I use it as a backup computer to my Explorer.. I feel its a much better computer, and the version supporting an external sensor will be out in january.. The explorer is the ONLY computer out that has the true full implementation of RGBM. I am a dealer for the explorer but that isn't biasing my feeling I use it all the time myself and am very happy with it. I woun't recomment any eqpt that I don't use myself..
If you want more info drop me a private message.

[madmole]

Mine has been faultless since new in July (50+ dives). CC Trimix

Pricewise they are roughly £1000 ($1500) new from the manufacturers. OMS does not have a good reputation as a dealer for them, worth buying directly form UK

Most hardware problems have been ironed out. Support is good and the computer is a dream to use. Just silicon the buttons occasionally to keep it all working

[lanun]

sorry to barge in to this thread. does vr3 come with proplanner ? i see that the Explorer does include the deco program.

given the comments on the user-friendliness/or lack thereof of one deco program Vs the other, which bundle would be better if you're to progress into trimix but possibly stop short of getting a CCR (irregardless of the practice of using tables, manually calculated or otherwise, to generate your dive plan)

[madmole]

No, proplanner is extra, although you can plan dives with multiple mixes with the VR3

Logging software, proplanner and dIR download cable are about £120 extra together ($165)

[MechDiver]

madmole once bubbled...
No, proplanner is extra, although you can plan dives with multiple mixes with the VR3

Logging software, proplanner and dIR download cable are about £120 extra together ($165)

I was quoted almost $400 for proplanner alone from OMS. I was told by Delta-p that we (assume meaning USA) could not order direct from them, and we are stuck with OMS.

Too expensive.

[madmole]

OMS are ripping you off

Complain to delta P

Might help to remind them that single dealer territories are illegal under European law

[MechDiver]

padiscubapro once bubbled...
The explorer is the ONLY computer out that has the true full implementation of RGBM. I am a dealer for the explorer but that isn't biasing my feeling I use it all the time myself and am very happy with it. I woun't recomment any eqpt that I don't use myself..
If you want more info drop me a private message.

My instructor and one guy in my trimix class have the Explorer and used them on some of our dives. I was not impressed and would not spend the money on one, even with the offered $400 off. The upload/download link is a piece of junk, the "dive history" is a fairly useless text file, and the planning software wasn't great either.

Phil

[lucid]

Mechdiver,

You stated that you wouldn't waste your money on the Explorer. Could you elaborate on the reasons why? I am interested in what you have to say as long as you have facts to back it up.
I am not that interested in the Uplink software. I have that on my computer now and have never used it. Maybe once I start diving more complex dives it will become usefull. I am not challenging you I just want more info =]

Thanks

ps= Are there older models of the explorer? If so is it possible that your trainer and friend had that?

[padiscubapro]

MechDiver once bubbled...


My instructor and one guy in my trimix class have the Explorer and used them on some of our dives. I was not impressed and would not spend the money on one, even with the offered $400 off. The upload/download link is a piece of junk, the "dive history" is a fairly useless text file, and the planning software wasn't great either.

Phil
The HSE version of the softweare is better than the ABYSS version.

If it wasn't in the last month it didn't have RGBM it only had Buhlman.. Its great for multi level dives and if you plan it right you can always fall back on tables..
The d/l is an actual dump of the dive profile.. time, depth mix number ect.. its all you need (I find its better for record keeping than those that present it in only a graphic format), if you want to graph, it its simple if you have excel, just cut and paste into excel and you got the whole profile.. The software is good for doing fast mix updates and building square profile based bailoiut tables.. (its not meant to be a stand alone dive planner) set your mixes, give it a depth and time it will build tables for depth less than and greathjer than your target with a large range of times.. d/l the software from their web site.. the latest beta is pretty nice, and will give you the overall run times for RGBM but not all the stops (only the computer is allowed by agreement), Bruce wants people to license his code for PC programs.

The areas that the computer is stong in is A) its very easy to program without the use of another computer, and it has a very large readable screen.. Some people love the buttons (cold water divers) others hate it (usually warm water divers). The older version did not do deep stops but the asymetric on/offgassing does create stops deeper than straight buhlman (which is also an option within the computer).

Right now its the ONLY computer that does true RGBM don't take my word for it just Ask Bruce W. who created RGBM.

There also is a recall for all computers that were received prior to mid september(both HSE and Abyss).. the user will get a new case and a free software upgrade to the latest non RGBM version, if the person wants RGBM there is a $50 upgrade fee along with another 1 year warranty.
Right now the Abyss versions are still non RGBM but can also be upgraded for $50.
ALso the newer units (and upgraded units) have had a tremendous increase in battery life, its now well over 100 hours.

I had one of the earliest units shipped and put several hundred dives on them with only a few minor complaints, each was addressed in free upgrades I received(and my customers), none was serious and all were quickly fixed. Most of the problems dealt with CCR mode which didn't have as much early on testing as the OC portion did.

If the VR3 got away from the Indiglo display they are using I would recommend it more strongly.. But indiglo displays have a documented problem.. they have a LIMITED life and the brightness/contrass loss is easily measurable even after only a year..

My "new model" VR3 is just about 1 year old and I already notice the display has dimmed.

[MechDiver]

lucid once bubbled...
Mechdiver,

You stated that you wouldn't waste your money on the Explorer. Could you elaborate on the reasons why? I am interested in what you have to say as long as you have facts to back it up.
I am not that interested in the Uplink software. I have that on my computer now and have never used it. Maybe once I start diving more complex dives it will become usefull. I am not challenging you I just want more info =]

Thanks

ps= Are there older models of the explorer? If so is it possible that your trainer and friend had that?

See also padiscubapro's comments as they are relevant.

The units we had were new and HSE versions, but they did not have the RGBM yet. Both computers locked up the first dive with ERR and would not unlock for 24 hours. Also, neither worked the way the manuals said they were supposed to, and really didn't do anything to further the dive.

Granted, they are very readable and appear to be very well make, except for the link.

My biggest objection is the Explorer just does not give me $1000 worth of functionality over tables, a slate, and B/T. To be fair, neither does the VR3.

Phil

[lucid]

Does anyone know if this locking problem is being addressed by the Manufacturer? Or has it already been fixed?

[padiscubapro]

in all likelyhood the computer did what it is supposed to do! Your tables were probably different than the computer.. If you are going to generate tables you either should use its table generator on the PC software or find which CF factor matches most closely to your tables.. If you used the default cf=9, these tables are very concervative and is probably what cauysed your Err since you were running a more agressive table.

I find most people don't read the manual carefully enough and don't understand how the Cf factors work.. The models that the explorer uses is an asymetric model most table generation software does not do this so you really have to generate a few profiles to see how to set the computer.

cf 9 on the hse version (latest)has an offgassing time thats 135% of ongassing time(plus other factors), the abyss version is 150% of ongassing time. There is a typo in the manual that after all the descriptions of CF factors and how the work, state the opposite in a later paragraph, but it still should have been understood by the decription of the algs..

Directly from the manual!

Broken Decompression - 'Err'
If you surface with decompression remaining, you have 10 minutes to return to the decompression stop
depth and complete the decompression requirement. In the event decompression time is remaining, the
HS Explorer will go into broken decompression mode and the cryptic "Err" will appear in the TTF/SI
location. The HS Explorer now requires 24 hours to 'clear' the broken decompression mode. During this 24
hour period it will function as a bottom timer and depth gauge only. No decompression information is
displayed. The gauge information is for emergency conditions only.

as for the manuals, on occasion the newest software has been ahead of the manual.. its usually best to check the web page for the lastest.. right now the newest manual doesn't reflect the RGBM update yet. There was a period where additional functionality was added with the gas switches and PO2 setpoints that didn't make it immediately into the manual. But the detailed procedures worked well enough..

ABYSS was sending out a real outdated manual for a long time (their computers also boot up HSE since thats who made the computers) The only way to tell which one it is is by the label on the back of the computer , and the sticker on the front is different..
the oem version has a sticker HSexplorer.

[AquaTec]

I dive with two VR3's
i can not compare it to the others mentioned so I won't
I can tell you how i like it and how i use it.

I also believe there is nothing that comes close.

1st I have had them about 9 month and they have about 100 dives on them none less than 200 feet and as deep as 404 feet
Two other dive buddies i dive with also have two each. so we are diving with six VR3's a lot

I have the small current style, which there seems to be two versions of.
the first version is a light aluminum looking color and the second is the dark metal color. I am not speaking of the software here

Now the light color one deffenitly has a different type of button and the darker type is an improvement on the way the buttons work. the darker version the button have a feeling of clicking in and the 1st version the buttons push in very softly.

we as a group have experienced the following problems.
1 - on my very first dive after buying one. it stopped working while i was in deco. - I returned it and it was replaced with a brand new one

2 - on the other one i bought durring its fifth dive, on the way down it stopped working, shut off as if you removed the battery, after i hit about 250 it just turned back on and started the dive then, so run time was 3 minutes behind, and all the defalt settings were there. the computer rebooted. luckly i had the second and completed the dive. - the problem had been experienced by one of my buddies and it was discovered that the threads to the battery were not perfect so the battery lost contact with the cover. this was easy to fix, and has worked file ever since

3 - I can't think of any other problems except for one was dropped and as a result a button doesn't work. but that is a result of damage

4 - on thing is the IR link does not work with XP, but i hear there is a solution, I just need to send an email and find out.

Those are the only problems and they happened shortly after they were new. the problems were delt with and they have worked well ever since.

NOW THE ADVANTAGES
1 - Ten gasses changable and programable underwater.
2 - Helium
3 - Hetox decompression calculations
4 - NEVER LOCKS OUT, no matter what you do it will provide you with a deco procedure, if you really mess up and a deco profile does not match an algritham, it will provide you a "best guess"
5 - CNS tracking, this is a huge advantage for extreme decompression dives
6 - you will be out of the water much faster than most other divers
7 - you can change the conservativity of the profile
8 - you can run sample dive profiles on the computer

Recomendations
1 - this is a computer designed for those pushing the limits of technical diving, most computers are designed for those doing recreational dives or maybe touching on tech diving.
2 - dive it several times as your back up method prior to depending on it
3 - it is very dependable
4 - buy it from Phenoix
6 - buy two and have one as a redundent computer, cause you do not want to go to tables after doing a dive on this unit.
7 - don't use it for a hammer, but they are pretty durrable

some software notes
1 - I bought the IR link and ProPlanner directly from Phenoix and it was cheap, maybe 150.00...i cant really remember so that means it must have been cheap
2 - The newest version is the 2.0 and it is downloadable from your computer.

final analysis
1 - this computer will change the way you do trimix dives
forget about depth and bottom time and start thinking about time to the surface. keeping our discution strictly to decompression planning, you simple plan for how long you want to do deco, say for instance you plan for two hours of deco. you dive up and down, all around and you just make sure you arive at your first deco stop when the time to surface says two hours.
so there is some new thinking for you. through some 10/50 in your tank and dive away...you must first change the way you think.
2 - there may be some out there hat have had a few problems with them, but i would say that is a one time glich, probably from lack of quality control during production. this will improve and they are backing them up quite well, once the defficet has been resolved there have been no problems


well thats all i can think of about them right now, if something else comes to mind i will add it

[MechDiver]

AquaTec once bubbled...
I dive with two VR3's

final analysis
1 - this computer will change the way you do trimix dives
forget about depth and bottom time and start thinking about time to the surface. keeping our discution strictly to decompression planning, you simple plan for how long you want to do deco, say for instance you plan for two hours of deco. you dive up and down, all around and you just make sure you arive at your first deco stop when the time to surface says two hours.
so there is some new thinking for you. through some 10/50 in your tank and dive away...you must first change the way you think.
2 - there may be some out there hat have had a few problems with them, but i would say that is a one time glich, probably from lack of quality control during production. this will improve and they are backing them up quite well, once the defficet has been resolved there have been no problems


Great post AquaTec. Thank you. From reading the manual, I agree with your "final analysis" and wish I had more options to try one of these things. But, not being able to deal direct with the UK, and now, with a grossly inflated price hike by OMS, it just isn't worth $2500 to find out.

Phil

[lucid]

I just called OMS and the VR3 msrp is now $1900+. How the heck can a company justify raising the price of a computer that has had a lot of problems since it first came out? Completely rediculous.

/me makes mental note to by backup bottom timer and stick to tables for a while =]

[WreckWriter]

lucid once bubbled...
I just called OMS and the VR3 msrp is now $1900+. How the heck can a company justify raising the price of a computer that has had a lot of problems since it first came out? Completely rediculous.

/me makes mental note to by backup bottom timer and stick to tables for a while =]

/me, huh? An old IRC vet I see!

Try these guys for VR3: http://www.1877scubausa.com/

I THINK they get theirs straight from UK. I got mine there and there was no mention of OMS on box, manual, or unit.

Tom

[lucid]

-

I check them out. Tom, did you have any problems getting warranty work done since you purchased it from an online source?

-Nate

[WreckWriter]

No problem. Delta-P never even asked where I bought it.

[zboss]

lucid once bubbled...
I just called OMS and the VR3 msrp is now $1900+. How the heck can a company justify raising the price of a computer that has had a lot of problems since it first came out? Completely rediculous.

/me makes mental note to by backup bottom timer and stick to tables for a while =]

You mean like the $200,000 piece of crap Astin Martin?

[MechDiver]

lucid once bubbled...
-

I check them out. Tom, did you have any problems getting warranty work done since you purchased it from an online source?

-Nate

BE careful here. I quizzed Delta-p concerning prices from LeisurePro and they said "who?" They stated that the ONLY authorized US agent is OMS. They did not seem to care that alot of us do not particularly like to deal with OMS.

I have not checked the UK web prices lately, but when I did last, they were very close to LPs. LP also did not have the IR link and Proplanner.

Phil

[padiscubapro]

I posted earlier that the HS explorer manual wasn't fully up to date with the latest software. the web site has been updated with a new simulator and up to date manuals.. So far I haven't found any mistakes or omissions.
The explorer doesn't truely lock out.. If you blow required deco it still functions as a bottom timer and guage.. if you haven't completed its required deco, it shouldn't be guessing.. I've have had many occasions where my VR3 went into Use tables (but since I never really violated the deco ceiling it still functioned but made its stops much longer) mainly because its deep stops are deeper than everything else buhlman based. to get the deep stops the same I really have to raise the GF but then the decos become much longer than necessary.

[ericfine50]

So of the two, which would you blow your $$ on?

Eric

[lanun]

this post has yielded a wealth of info - kudos to lucid :)

for me personally, since i'm at least a year away from trimix, i'll stick with my bottom timer for now due to the following reason :

1) technology progresses at a fair clip so there's probably enough advances by then to slightly change the answers on this thread
2) save me some moolah on upgrades to get the latest
3) embed the discipline of working with dive tables

[AquaTec]

padiscubapro once bubbled...
I posted earlier that the HS explorer manual wasn't fully up to date with the latest software. the web site has been updated with a new simulator and up to date manuals.. So far I haven't found any mistakes or omissions.
The explorer doesn't truely lock out.. If you blow required deco it still functions as a bottom timer and guage.. if you haven't completed its required deco, it shouldn't be guessing.. I've have had many occasions where my VR3 went into Use tables (but since I never really violated the deco ceiling it still functioned but made its stops much longer) mainly because its deep stops are deeper than everything else buhlman based. to get the deep stops the same I really have to raise the GF but then the decos become much longer than necessary.

The use tables sign is their liability release. it will still provide you with deco info that works.
If you have had many occations were this has happend then you are not doing proper deco...i'll bet you are skipping the deep stops...the only way it goes into this mode is if you mess up your deco profile. actualy come to think of it for it to go in this mode you must miss two deco stops.
it also bases its deco on helium that is why it is shorter. Buhlman bases it on nitrogen..[the short version here] but it is why it is quicker on deco.

if you havent done your required deco, and your computer goes into gauge mode, and then you pull out a table..you are guessing, because you missed your deco stops you are no longer within a known algrithom. so either you guess with a timer and tables or the computer guesses by adapting or adjusting the algarithom. it is your chioce.

[AquaTec]

If you are not diving trimix...the VR3 is a waste of money....however it was cheaper than my Vytek

[padiscubapro]

AquaTec once bubbled...


The use tables sign is their liability release. it will still provide you with deco info that works.
If you have had many occations were this has happend then you are not doing proper deco...i'll bet you are skipping the deep stops...the only way it goes into this mode is if you mess up your deco profile. actualy come to think of it for it to go in this mode you must miss two deco stops.
it also bases its deco on helium that is why it is shorter. Buhlman bases it on nitrogen..[the short version here] but it is why it is quicker on deco.

if you havent done your required deco, and your computer goes into gauge mode, and then you pull out a table..you are guessing, because you missed your deco stops you are no longer within a known algrithom. so either you guess with a timer and tables or the computer guesses by adapting or adjusting the algarithom. it is your chioce.

I don't agree, many of the tables I have run (and follow) I end up seeing the VR3's first stop is 10-20 feet deeper (depends on profile and seems to be worse on a CCR).. If I am to stay on my tables I ignore the VR3 stop, now I'll get that use tables message..(and I end up staying in the water longer to clear the VR3 which now penalized me) IF I raise the GF I can get it to match but the times become longer than I feel is necessary.. I don't use proplanner and I hate the computer menu interface so I don't know what the VR3's stops are going to be(to put that in as a waypoint).. So iTs strictly a backup for me(if my explorer craps out and I go off my tables - pretty unlikely).. I stay within my tables and within my Explorer.. On "air" based dives I leave the VR3 home and use a commander (with constant PO2) as a backupup since I can get the 2 computers to agree nicely. I havent used the RGBM mode on the explorer yet, but judging by the profiles I have run the stops are deeper and would satisfy the deep stop of the VR3 but now since the deco is shorter I'm afraid I'll end up "bending" the VR3 unless I end up hanging alot longer..
It would be nice to be able to skip the deep stop without getting penalized on deco..

It also looks like the profiles generated by the RGBM software are relatively close to VPM so thats another plus for me since I was experimenting with those profiles this summer..

I would also add to the comment IF you don't dive helium its a waste.. I don't think its ENTIRELY true.. If you dive a CCR either computer VR3 or Explorer are worth using..
On OC if you aren't diveing Trimix your wasting your money.

[AquaTec]

Remember I can not comment on the computer you are using as i do not have one, or am i familure with it....tables i can comment on along with the VR3

[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't agree, many of the tables I have run (and follow) I end up seeing the VR3's first stop is 10-20 feet deeper (depends on profile and seems to be worse on a CCR).. If I am to stay on my tables I ignore the VR3 stop, now I'll get that use tables message..(and I end up staying in the water longer to clear the VR3 which now penalized me)
First off it is ok to disagree, but to look at two differnt sides is benificial. as long as you remember i am not trying to convince you to do anything different than you are doing now.

the stops on the VR3 are deeper than tables by a little bit, if you skip them then you will send the VR3 in a missed eco mode "use tables" and you will do extra deco, especialy at gas switches or high Po2 portions of the dive, this is a good thing.

A quick question for you ...how do you plan your deep stopsI take half the distance between my first stop and my max depth and make that my first deep stop, then do it again between those two stops until i have reached my first deco stop. the VR3 does something simular but it tends to end up slightly deeper.


IF I raise the GF I can get it to match but the times become longer than I feel is necessary.. I don't use proplanner and I hate the computer menu interface so I don't know what the VR3's stops are going to be(to put that in as a waypoint).. So iTs strictly a backup for me(if my explorer craps out and I go off my tables - pretty unlikely).. I stay within my tables and within my Explorer..
I agree i too do not use the simulator mode on the computer, just out of lazyness though. the GF is a safety factor and will add to your overall decompression commitment, [i am assuming you are talking about the setting in set up labled "safe" I set mine at zero or 1 depending on the dive, and i will match the others in my team.. also when you add in your way points on other software it is using nitrogen as the speed to which you will on gass and off gas. as far as i know the VR3 is the only one using Helium the gas.if it is programed in to do so. this is why the run times are a bit shorter.


On "air" based dives I leave the VR3 home and use a commander (with constant PO2) as a backupup since I can get the 2 computers to agree nicely. I havent used the RGBM mode on the explorer yet, but judging by the profiles I have run the stops are deeper and would satisfy the deep stop of the VR3 but now since the deco is shorter I'm afraid I'll end up "bending" the VR3
Like i said you must stay within your comfort level when you dive, i leave my VR3 home for recreational dive and i use a Vytek.

You can not bend a VR3, that is another great point of it, it will always give you the best deco procedure for the dive you are doing. by using the words "best guess" it is telling you that you are outside the normal algarithom thats all,


It would be nice to be able to skip the deep stop without getting penalized on deco..
In the original version "the Brick" you could eliminate the deep stops, but the feeling now is that would be as silly as eliminating the shallow stops, so now it is not an option.

I was recently in the Caymans, four of us diving two on tables and two on VR3's, our deep stops were deeper than theirs, but we caught up to them and we cleared deco about 20 minutes faster than them

[MechDiver]

AquaTec,

My impression of the VR3 from that manual was that it would recompute your profile on the fly. IOW, you stay at depth longer or, as in your last post, not do a stop, and it would refigure your remaining profile based on that new info, gases, etc. That would not seem to be the case based on your last post. Or does it do that, but give you the "use tables" message in the bargain?

Phil

[AquaTec]

MechDiver once bubbled...
AquaTec,

My impression of the VR3 from that manual was that it would recompute your profile on the fly. IOW, you stay at depth longer or, as in your last post, not do a stop, and it would refigure your remaining profile based on that new info, gases, etc. That would not seem to be the case based on your last post. Or does it do that, but give you the "use tables" message in the bargain?

Phil

maybe i didn't explain it very well.

on the screen there are several icons. in the top right corner you have a choice of eather a clock or a graph showing nitrogen loading. the only time it goes into a "use Tables" mode is when you miss two [i think] deco stops and there are some peramiters for this, like ascending past the stop by 5 feet or something.

the "use tables' icon then replaces the clock/graph icon
but the information regarding deco is still visable
The VR3 will then provide a "best Guess" scenario for decompression, it displays it the same as if you followed the proper profile other than the icon mentioned earlier.

as with any computer it calculates your profile on the fly throughout the dive

you can stay at depth as long as you want i believe it will provide unlimited deco information were some are limited to 999 minutes

does this explain it

here is a link to ProPlanner free shareware planning software

link to the VR3 and picture
http://www.omsdive.com/computer.html
you will see in the pix that it is calling for a gas switch this will override the "use Tables" icon but be in the same place

[MechDiver]

AquaTec once bubbled...
does this explain it

here is a link to ProPlanner free shareware planning software

link to the VR3 and picture
http://www.omsdive.com/computer.html
you will see in the pix that it is calling for a gas switch this will override the "use Tables" icon but be in the same place

Yep, that sunk in finally. Thanks for the additional clarification and I'll give the software a spin.

Phil

[padiscubapro]

Aquatec Said
"A quick question for you ...how do you plan your deep stopsI take half the distance between my first stop and my max depth and make that my first deep stop, then do it again between those two stops until i have reached my first deco stop. the VR3 does something simular but it tends to end up slightly deeper."


Your method is basically Pyle stops, Thats one of the ways I'll do it.. and gets you up the line faster..

Another method which will generate profiles similar to GF profiles is to do your first stop at 80% of your max depth, then do stops every 10 feet.. its not exact but will put you on a Deco curve that approximates GF. On OC you may get some additional gas loading (on the slower compartments) if its done before the calculated off gassing point for your mix, but on An RB there really isn't a penalty since your mix is constantkly getting richer with o2...

Debate is a good thing.. People get to see each others point of view and hopefully both learn something (as are others who are following the debate), and maybe try something new. I'm not against using the VR3 (I do use it), I'm just saying its deco profiles are different than I'm used to run.. More modern adapted Buhlman algs don't really work based only on nitrogen (the earliest hacks did they built in some concervatism to simulate faster loading of He), most modern software calculates the total compartment loading based on both gasses in proportion to the mixes and the allowable gradient for both gasses. Some can even predict the overloading of compartments based on an imporper gas switch (being SATURATED with a slow gas like nitrogen THEN switching to a light gas like helium).
When deco programs calculate percentages and PO2 its not just based on the gas compsition, but as stated above.. 32% oxygen really isn't a PO2 of 1.6 @40m ist actually less due to Water vapor and CO2.
I don't consider myself an expert (in reality noone should) since its all theory, and models based on our current understanding anyway..
Non CCR programs also used a fixed value for water vapor and CO2, whereas rebreather capable programs take into account the variable potential of water vapor based on loop temperature.. standard OC uses a temp of 35C since its assumed all inhaled gas will be warmed to body temperature, whereas a loop in general is warmer and may be above body temp.. also the method used to calculate ascents had to be changed since on OC takeing the average between the deepest and shallowest points work for gas loading, it doesn't work for constant PO2.

WHen I said leaving the VR3 at home on air based dives its not necessarily a recreational dive.. Depending on where I am and the availability of He I may or may not have it in my mix, but it still may be a deco dive.

[Jonathan]

the only time it goes into a "use Tables" mode is when you miss two [i think] deco stops

Afraid not - I missed one deep stop by about 1m or maybe 2m and when I noticed I could not get down quick enough to get the deep stop, you have 1 minute and it counts down for you. If you can get back down then then it starts reversing the count and let's you finish the stop.

Why could I not get down that 1m? When I noticed I had about 20 seconds to go and I was in the middle of Sara's flight deck......

[AquaTec]

Jonathan once bubbled...


Afraid not - I missed one deep stop by about 1m or maybe 2m and when I noticed I could not get down quick enough to get the deep stop, you have 1 minute and it counts down for you. If you can get back down then then it starts reversing the count and let's you finish the stop.

Why could I not get down that 1m? When I noticed I had about 20 seconds to go and I was in the middle of Sara's flight deck......

I wasn't sure about this, the only time i missed eep stops was in Truk Lagoon on a wreck at 220 feet for 60 minutes, the ascent required an up the ladder through the gangway down to another level then out through a cargo hold. well somewere in there you are supposed to do a couple of deep stops. and i missed it every time. i would still do them but only on my final ascent not the up and down part. but to late it went innto missed stop mode.

I found that if you started deco. say you are on your first deep stop, then descend down again. say inside a wreck, it also puts you into "Use Tables" mode

Of all the diving I have done with it,. the unit has gone into "Use Tables" mode only a couple of times mostly on these wrecks

[WYDT]

It completely blows my mind that you guys would pay more than $1000 (sometimes as much as $2000!!) for something that is totally useless and not needed.

Learn how deco works and you won't need to rely on a computer and can spend that money on things you really DO need like more regs or stages or a trip to your favorite destination.

What are you afraid of? You need a machine on your arm to tell you it's ok to get out of the water?? :bonk:

[WreckWriter]

WYDT once bubbled...
It completely blows my mind that you guys would pay more than $1000 (sometimes as much as $2000!!) for something that is totally useless and not needed.

Learn how deco works and you won't need to rely on a computer and can spend that money on things you really DO need like more regs or stages or a trip to your favorite destination.

What are you afraid of? You need a machine on your arm to tell you it's ok to get out of the water?? :bonk:

You always state your position so eloquently Rob. You, of course, use nothing but deco-planner, right? And you have how many years of trimix experience?

Terms like "useless" are relative in my experience.

Tom

[WYDT]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
You always state your position so eloquently Rob. You, of course, use nothing but deco-planner, right? And you have how many years of trimix experience?

Terms like "useless" are relative in my experience.

Tom

Ok Tom, I take that back... computers aren't completely useless... they can make a nice (albeit very expensive) paperweight. ;)

In all seriousness: No, I don't have a lot of Trimix experience but I do have a lot of deco experience and I haven't used a computer yet... and neither do the guys/gals who do have a lot of trimix experience that I dive with (including a trimix instructor).

I think simpler is better and using a computer might seem simpler on the surface but it's not.... you still have to have tables in case the computer dies anyway right? So why even use it in the first place??? I just don't get it....

If the argument is against square profiles aren't most "trimix" dives pretty square? If not one can use an avg depth with tables too... I do that all the time in the caves. I know most technical wrecks are a square profile....

I'm not trying to hammer on the people who use computers I just don't understand it... sure they look cool and make great conversation pieces but they are so expensive (even most of the EANx models are $400 and up) that I just don't see any benefit and for technical diving I just think they are useless.

If one studies decompression theory and looks at all the information out there and really gets a good feel for how it works it's easy.

What I do: Print out a set of tables with Decoplanner's "Table's" feature. I print out tables for all the standard mixes I'll be using both with and without deco gas and the range I'll be using them at. I cut them into strips that will fit in my wetnotes and then laminate them and put them in my wetnotes.

Also I'll say now that I don't follow the tables decoplanner puts out exactly. I add deep stops and take some time away from the 20ft stop and do a very slow ascent along with some other minor adjustments.

Once one does the same dive a couple of times this way one won't even need to look at the tables anymore.

This is the advantage of not using or relying on a computer and using standard mixes. One gains a better feel for how things work and saves a lot of cashola in the process.

DSAO!!

[WreckWriter]

For me the computer is the backup. What I do is to cut tables prior to the dive (I prefer V-planner to deco-plan as it gives me a better deep stop most of the time), I then do the deep stop the computer calls for to keep it from going into "use tables" mode (an 80% of max depth stop for 1 minute usually, sometimes 2) then deco out on the tables, occasionally checking myself with the puter. The tables and computer are rarely more than a minute or two apart throughout the whole deco.

I bought the computer prior to my mix class. Had I not done so I likely wouldn't have bought it but now I have it and I feel its a good backup in the case where a dive goes outside the planned for range.

Yea, most mix dives are fairly square, not all though. A good exception is the Spiegel Grove. A shallow mix dive for sure but far from square when you get to crawling around inside.

Looking forward to meeting you on the Gulf trip on the 22nd.

Tom

[AquaTec]

WYDT

It completely blows my mind that you guys would pay more than $1000 (sometimes as much as $2000!!) for something that is totally useless and not needed.

Learn how deco works and you won't need to rely on a computer and can spend that money on things you really DO need like more regs or stages or a trip to your favorite destination

What are you afraid of? You need a machine on your arm to tell you it's ok to get out of the water??

I was going to blast you for making the above offensive statements without intoducing the way you do deco, but i had to run out, and when i got back you had submitted the post below. Good for you.
everybody is entitled to their oppinion, it doesn't supprise me that yours is offensive, and demeaning considering your training.
you ar eright if computers were totaly useless and not needed then it would be a huge waste of money..you are correct in the fact that they are not needed at all, however they are usefull by making your dive more efficiant, felxible, and deco more reliable.

I do need..no ....like to have...yes.....a machine on that says it is safer for me to get out of the water, even providing a graph showing compartment loading, which is a benificial part of that deco process.

If you don't mind i would like to address some of your comments, not in order to convince you to change the way you do things, but to educate you in the way others might do it, so you will consider that prior to barking comments down from your high horse. since this thread is on the VR3 i will keep my comments associated to that



In all seriousness: No, I don't have a lot of Trimix experience but I do have a lot of deco experience and I haven't used a computer yet... and neither do the guys/gals who do have a lot of trimix experience that I dive with (including a trimix instructor).
As i stated before...anybody pushing the limits of decompression theories and procedures and using trimix will find to there advantage the use of the VR3, i described why in posts above.
as you stated you do not have much experience so you probably don't need a computer at all until you get more experience.


I think simpler is better and using a computer might seem simpler on the surface but it's not.... you still have to have tables in case the computer dies anyway right? So why even use it in the first place???[
Why use a dive computer on the surface, i carry two computers, with my dive buddies two computers as back up to my back up. who needs tables...


I just don't get it...
that is the most accurate point you have made so far


If the argument is against square profiles aren't most "trimix" dives pretty square? If not one can use an avg depth with tables too... I do that all the time in the caves. I know most technical wrecks are a square profile....[
once again you are displaying your lack of experience and the lack of experience of those you tell you what to think over a beer after their dive.
any table dive will be a square dive as far as planning goes, that is why computers offer such an advantage over tables. you can use average depth for planning deco. but you loose flexability and accuracy it is the good old George rule of thumb method.
with a VR3 depth and time are completly flexible, you can do saw tooth dives at any depth for any time, and take advantage of the offgassing [or i should say, less on gassing] at the shallower portions of the saw. it is calculated every couple of seconds.
say at 300 - 400 feet every minute will add exponesualy to your deco commitment. with the VR3 you monitor your deco commitment and dive were you want and for how long.


I'm not trying to hammer on the people who use computers I just don't understand it
another true statement, I couldn't have said it better myself


that I just don't see any benefit and for technical diving I just think they are useless.
As you gain more experience and expand your thinking and circle of divers you encounter, the benifits might become clearer


If one studies decompression theory and looks at all the
information out there and really gets a good feel for how it works it's easy
this is very true, see we think the same on many of your statements

Like I said it is interesting to read and good backup for your original statements that you have posted your methods below

You are basicly a table diver, table generated by a comnputer on the surface. nothing wrong with that, i do like how you indicate that you you don't really follow the tables you make anyways, you add this and take away that. this is a good display of not understanding decompression or how to generate proper tables.
maybe you should look at a different deco planner that works for you instead of guessing...oh i forgot you are only aloud to use that one..to bad..well keep guessing and hopefull it all works out for you.



What I do: Print out a set of tables with Decoplanner's "Table's" feature. I print out tables for all the standard mixes I'll be using both with and without deco gas and the range I'll be using them at. I cut them into strips that will fit in my wetnotes and then laminate them and put them in my wetnotes.

Also I'll say now that I don't follow the tables decoplanner puts out exactly. I add deep stops and take some time away from the 20ft stop and do a very slow ascent along with some other minor adjustments.

Once one does the same dive a couple of times this way one won't even need to look at the tables anymore

This is the advantage of not using or relying on a computer and using standard mixes. One gains a better feel for how things work and saves a lot of cashola in the process.

[WYDT]

I was hashing out a big long reply to Aquatec but I changed my mind.... I guess I pi$$ed him off... ;-0

Sigh... It's just not worth the trouble...

You guys have fun playing with all your toys....

DSAO!!

[AquaTec]

Oh you haven't seen me PISSED OFF.

I was just having fun with you, beside i am in therapy for anger management. they said i should try out a chat board and discuss stuff i am passionate about, without the physical contact. this will help me deal with issues without hurting people like you

[just kidding, i'm not in therapy, anymore]

i do find it a trend for people with your background to just jump off the thread when the reasoning gets reasonable.

so i antisipated your response to be something along these lines ending in you not wanting to communicate any further.

It must be part of your DIR traing

Rule number 12b
if backed into a corner were logic outways what i tell you, then say something smartass and remove yourself from the conversation

[Uncle Pug]

AquaTec once bubbled...
remove yourself from the conversation
OKaaaay.... hmmmm.... what are we arguing about here Doug?

Oh.... VR3? Computers rot your brain? :out:

[AquaTec]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

OKaaaay.... hmmmm.... what are we arguing about here Doug?

Oh.... VR3? Computers rot your brain? :out:

maybe....i was just talking about VR3's and then WYTD brought up the rot you brain thing, and high jacked the thread.

I was having a good conversation with several others
padiscubapro, wreckwriter, johnathan, and a few others. it was informative and interesting until WYTD made his first post.

i am just responding, and also the others who made this interesting have left. so not much else to talk about

[Uncle Pug]

AquaTec once bubbled...
maybe....i was just talking about VR3's and then WYTD brought up the rot you brain thing, and high jacked the thread.

It isn't highjacked unless you let it get highjacked.

I have been following it and found it interesting. Actually I thought you were doing a good job too debating Rob... you just need to be patient.

If you've ever been deer hunting you know that it is always better not to rush at them waving your arms and yelling. :D

[Jonathan]

OK, first some background - I have a degree in Systems Analysis and the course included 2 years of sociology including subjects like fear of change. For the last 13 years have I been a systems programmer and designer.

The best use of computers is to take away the mundane and repetitious tasks and allow the user do more exciting stuff!

I think this applies both in business and in diving. Yes it may make doing some of the more mundane stuff slower as I said in a previous post but it does free you up to be more productive.

Wouldn't you rather be reliving the dive or planning where you might look next than cutting tables?

Jonathan

[AquaTec]

PUG
thats why i like you...you always have good points

I have to go out for the evening, so my patients will come in the form of abscents.

[padiscubapro]

AquaTec once bubbled...


maybe....i was just talking about VR3's and then WYTD brought up the rot you brain thing, and high jacked the thread.

I was having a good conversation with several others
padiscubapro, wreckwriter, johnathan, and a few others. it was informative and interesting until WYTD made his first post.

I am just responding, and also the others who made this interesting have left. so not much else to talk about

I just ignored WDYT's post..

If he doesn't think his life is worth $1000 who are we to argue.. I feel you can't have too much safety.

He doesn't have the experience to understand the benefit.. I dive both ways.. If I know its a strict square profile tables are fine but when exploring an unknown site tables have to become a 3rd backup behind 2 computers which are unlikely to both fail... Tables are good to help you plan a worst case plan for how much gas you will need. If you start diving bubble models like VPM or RGBM ascent rate and run times are critical.. If you get delayed your tables are now useless.. They can now only be used as a general guide to get you to the surface and hope that you waited enough to cover the screw up. I'm not saying it can't be done, in fact so far only 1 computer supports RGBM, but it adds an added measure of safety(even if you have to fall back on a buhlmann alg.)... Plus how many of us get to decompress in a chamber or have one readily available anyway??

I have done dives that If I had to follow tables strictly I would have had to hang at least an hour more than I did.

He probably hasn't done dives in the 300ft range either when 5 minutes more can easily tack an extra 30 minutes of deco.. if your decent took longer than planned at least with a computer it adjusts for the delay and you can still do the dive without having to resort to the longer deco.. Longer deco isn't always better.. the longer you are in the water the greater chance something will happen.. I have been on dives where sharks started getting curious, the computer said it was ok to get out of the water.. I did.. My tables still had me hanging for some time..

I do alot of dive with repetetive profiles and I know what they are supposed to run like... watching the computer over these profiles gives you an intuitive way of seeing how you actions effect your obligation.. its a hell of a lot more enjoyable than just running profiles on a pc without doing it in real life.. most so called experienced divers I have met don't know how to control an ascent.. most think they are running it ok but in reality in the deep phase most are way to slow, and are usually to fast in the shallower stops. if you have a computer that tracks your profile you can analyze yourself and make corrections.. I too used to be a bit slow on my early ascents, but by constant analysis of my dives I know what I am really doing... with a bottom timer you have no tracking of your actual dive, the only thing you can say is I didn't get bent, but did the diver really execute the profile planned???

[cadet diver]

Just curious, what you guys use as back up computers? Another VR3 or something more conservative?

[WYDT]

AquaTec once bubbled...
Oh you haven't seen me PISSED OFF.

I was just having fun with you, beside i am in therapy for anger management. they said i should try out a chat board and discuss stuff i am passionate about, without the physical contact. this will help me deal with issues without hurting people like you

>[b]Ohh ohh, now I'm scared.... easy killer....

[just kidding, i'm not in therapy, anymore]

>I find that hard to believe

i do find it a trend for people with your background to just jump off the thread when the reasoning gets reasonable.

>you don't have the first clue what my background is or has your vast experience made you psychic as well??

so i antisipated your response to be something along these lines ending in you not wanting to communicate any further.

>Never argue with a fool. Someone watching may not be able to tell the difference

It must be part of your DIR traing

>what DIR training??

Rule number 12b
if backed into a corner were logic outways what i tell you, then say something smartass and remove yourself from the conversation

>backed into a corner huh? You should have posted "Coke Alert" on that one!

It's obvious that I hit a nerve with you and you're feeling the need to defend yourself... that's ok. My original post was not meant to inflame I was really amazed that someone would pay that much for somthing that even YOU ADMITTED was not necessary.

You think you're a great diver becasue you use a $1000 - $2000 computer to tell you the same thing I can do with NOTHING.... boy you ARE the smart one here..... what a moron I am... all along I could have been spending money on something that's not needed.... why didn't I think of that... ohh yeah, it's because I'm not experienced enough to see the benefit of something that's not needed....
:confused:

Also, I didn't mean to "hijack" the thread and now wish I'd not said anything (I certainly didn't mean to pi$$ anyone off so bad) so I'll leave you guys alone now. Note: I'm not running away and haven't been backed into a corne, I'm merely giving the thread back so whatever derrogatory comments Aquatec has about me so be it. I've got better things to do.

Wreckwriter: thanks for having a more civil dialog and not attacking me like Aquatec, I look forward to meeting you.