Today I came across a video of seals being clubbed in Norther Canada. Like most ignorant Americans, I had let this practice slip into the back of my mind. The film, though very one-sided, really left an impression on me, since just last week I was happily hunting with a pack of harbor seals.
What are your thoughts, Canadian divers? Does it bother you? Is it just a tradition that you don't see going away?
dlndavid
February 8th, 2007, 04:31 PM
Wardric? :popcorn:
cerich
February 8th, 2007, 04:33 PM
We've been down this road before on the seal hunt. At the end of the day emotions and politics de-rail a open conversation.
Being Canadian and with my folks living in Northern Newfoundland and having many people I know who actually participate in the hunt my views are pro hunt.
Unfortunately seal hunting is necessary in the exact same way deer are treated in the US and elsewhere, as a cull of the herd. Due to the decline in cod ( a main food source) and the rabbit like ability of seals to reproduce the hunt is needed to reduce mass starvation and disease. In addition it may help the cod population rebound and provides a living to the hunters
LetterBoy
February 8th, 2007, 04:34 PM
:popcorn: I agree where is Wardric. . .
Hockeynut
February 8th, 2007, 04:36 PM
We've been down this road efore on the seal hunt. At the end of the day emotions and politics derail a open conversation.
Being Canadian and with my folks living in Northern Newfoundland and having many people I know who actually participate in the hunt my views are pro hunt.
Unfortuantly seal hunting is necessary in the exact same way deer are treated in the US and elsewhere, as a cull of the herd. Due to the decline in cod ( a main food source) and the rabbit like ability of seals to reproduce the hunt is needed to reduce mass starvation and diesease. In addition it may help the cod population rebound and provides a living to the hunters
Great Post!
cbborromeo
February 8th, 2007, 04:47 PM
It's well documented that Cod population has ben descimated by overfishing and bottom trolling which kill the reefs. I must be missing something here, but I can't see why culling seal will help cod population rebound.
Furthermore, there are better ways of killing seal than clubbing them to death. I've never been on a deer hunt before, but I can assure you they don't club them to death.
I'm not against keeping the seal population in check to protect against disease or starvation , but there are much better ways of going about it don't you think?
cerich
February 8th, 2007, 04:55 PM
It's well documented that Cod population has ben descimated by overfishing and bottom trolling which kill the reefs. I must be missing something here, but I can't see why culling seal will help cod population rebound.
Furthermore, there are better ways of killing seal than clubbing them to death. I've never been on a deer hunt before, but I can assure you they don't club them to death.
I'm not against keeping the seal population in check to protect against disease or starvation , but there are much better ways of going about it don't you think?
I agree 100% as to the why of the cod decline! That being said th decline is a fact and it is possible that cod may very well end up extinct, if they do the seals will follow, make no mistake about it. The seal hunt does provide relief on cod stocks that runs into the millions of cod per year. Seals eat lots of cod...
You are aware that hogs are killed with a hammer, high volume hog farms just use a pneumatic version. It's quick and as humane as it gets. Having seen both clubs and guns (.22 and .223's) used to hunt seals it has been my personal experience that a club in the hand of a experienced hunter is much more humane to the animal than a gun. The club kills them instantly, the gun kills them but it normally takes between 1-5 mins. A larger caliber would do the killing better but destroy the value of the meat and fur.
There isn't a pretty way to kill any animal, when you throw in how beautiful seals are it will always be an ugly picture, however every hunter I know wants to do it as humane as possible.
cerich
February 8th, 2007, 04:59 PM
I've never been on a deer hunt before, but I can assure you they don't club them to death.
It sicken me and most serious deer hunters (which I'm not but hunted with many when I was younger) but there are MANY hunters who don't manage to kill a deer with one shot and the deer suffers. Even worse there are "hunters" who will shot and not kill a deer who don't bother to follow and kill the animal because they know the meat is ruined when you don't kill them cleanly.
wardric
February 8th, 2007, 05:07 PM
I'm here ;)
yes overfishing is an important part of the cod decline. But the seal population is blooming like pigeons in europe. Here is a link that explain some myths about the seal hunt:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/myth_e.htm
from that site:
According to a 2004 survey, the Northwest Atlantic harp seal population is now estimated at approximately 5.8 million animals, nearly triple what it was in the 1970s
And clubbing is the most humane way to kill a seal. It's instantaneous unlike a bullet or an arrow. I hunt deer myself but I aint fast enough to club one. ;)
also from the site:
A 2002 report published in the Canadian Veterinary Journal found that the club or hakapik is an efficient tool designed to kill the animal quickly and humanely.
and before someone mentions it, baby seals (the white fluffy cudly ones) are not allowed to be killed. from the site:
The image of the whitecoat harp seal is used prominently by seal hunt opponents. This image gives the false impression that vulnerable seal pups are targeted by sealers during the commercial hunt.
The hunting of harp seal pups (whitecoats) and hooded seal pups (bluebacks) is illegal – and has been since 1987. Marine Mammal Regulations prohibit the trade, sale or barter of the fur of these pups. Furthermore, adult seals cannot be harvested when they are in breeding or birthing grounds and younger seals must be weaned, self-reliant and independent.
Dont let the videos fool you.
Diver Dennis
February 8th, 2007, 05:08 PM
This should answer a lot of your questions...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/myth_e.htm
Sponsored Link
Diver Dennis
February 8th, 2007, 05:09 PM
Sorry Eric...:D
wardric
February 8th, 2007, 05:11 PM
It sicken me and most serious deer hunters (which I'm not but hunted with many when I was younger) but there are MANY hunters who don't manage to kill a deer with one shot and the deer suffers. Even worse there are "hunters" who will shot and not kill a deer who don't bother to follow and kill the animal because they know the meat is ruined when you don't kill them cleanly.
I agree with that. There is also the trophy hunters who will shoot many animals and keep only the nicest antlers. I myself hunt with a bow. I practice long range (100-120') but will never release an arrow from more than 30-40 ft, just to make sure it is well shot and will suffer the least.
wardric
February 8th, 2007, 05:12 PM
Sorry Eric...:D
lol
:D
Diver Dennis
February 8th, 2007, 05:15 PM
It all depends what gets the most publicity. I never see veal farms or a Foie Gras duck on TV.
http://www.goveg.com/feat/foie/
cerich
February 8th, 2007, 05:16 PM
Just a couple quick points about the video that was linked in the OP post.
It has been illegal in Canada for years (misd 80's if I remeber) to kill yearling seals (the cute white ones and young ones called blue backs).
Most of the videos you see on clubbing white seals are not shot in Canada, in fact one that was really gruesome and ugly a few years back was shot in the US and the hunter was with one of the anti sealing groups.
Make no mistake the seal hunt is a very visually disturbing sght for most people, then again so is watching cattle, chicken or hogs slaughtered.
This is misleading the public.
This ex-beatle would not be clubbed. Has-been singer clubbing is illegal in Canada :D
What a cute critter. . .
cerich
February 8th, 2007, 05:19 PM
That seal is cute!, my parents wouldn't give in when I wanted to catch and keep a baby as a pet...
My step dad pointed out that I wouldn't be able to catch enough cod to keep it fed!
wardric
February 8th, 2007, 05:21 PM
Most of the videos you see on clubbing white seals are not shot in Canada, in fact one that was really gruesome and ugly a few years back was shot in the US and the hunter was with one of the anti sealing groups.
Exactly. Again, misleading information by extremist groups.
wardric
February 8th, 2007, 05:23 PM
What a cute critter. . .
Are you talking about Paul McCartney's ex-wife? ;)
(btw, she almost got bitten by the pup during her encounter. They were harrassing the poor creature)
Sponsored Link
LetterBoy
February 8th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Are you talking about Paul McCartney's ex-wife? ;)
(btw, she almost got bitten by the pup during her encounter. They were harrassing the poor creature)
Oh you mean those people in the background are actually famous people:huh:
OH and she probably deserved to get bitten :D
cbborromeo
February 8th, 2007, 05:25 PM
Thank you for the education. Obviously, I thought that clubbing was outdated and only used for cultural reasons. Knowing that it is the most effective and immediate form of killing and that the industry is closely regulated and monitored is a good thing.
Is it because of the myths then that seal hunting is seen as barbaric? Is seal meat sold and consumed widely in Canada?
LetterBoy
February 8th, 2007, 05:25 PM
It is barbaric if done to another human but not to a seal . . .
PUGMASTER
February 8th, 2007, 05:29 PM
Any guessues as to whether this particular thread is going to end up like the dolphin massacre one:coffee:
cerich
February 8th, 2007, 05:32 PM
It is barbaric if done to another human but not to a seal . . .
it kills a seal faster than electrocution or lethal injection kills a human which we don't do in Canada....:D Which country is barbaric?
cbborromeo
February 8th, 2007, 05:33 PM
This ex-beatle would not be clubbed. Has-been singer clubbing is illegal in Canada :D
His latest album is actually quite good. "Chaos and Creation in the Backyard".
cerich
February 8th, 2007, 05:33 PM
Is seal meat sold and consumed widely in Canada?
no, mostly sold to Asia.
cbborromeo
February 8th, 2007, 05:34 PM
What happened to the dolphin massacre one?
wardric
February 8th, 2007, 05:35 PM
His latest album is actually quite good. "Chaos and Creation in the Backyard".
:lol: Then he's game ;)
LetterBoy
February 8th, 2007, 05:36 PM
it kills a seal faster than electrocution or lethal injection kills a human which we don't do in Canada....:D Which country is barbaric?
the French :popcorn:
wardric
February 8th, 2007, 05:36 PM
Any guessues as to whether this particular thread is going to end up like the dolphin massacre one:coffee:
I dont think so. We are all mature adults after all :)
LetterBoy
February 8th, 2007, 05:36 PM
What happened to the dolphin massacre one?
You mean this
LetterBoy
February 8th, 2007, 05:37 PM
I dont think so. We are all mature adults after all :)
I know I'm very mature Ohh look 33. . .
PUGMASTER
February 8th, 2007, 05:38 PM
Maybe we should pick up one of dem dere seal, get it stuffed wit lead and den go club us a few of dem dolphins in Japan.
Would they still be shouting about the inhumane way THEY kill thier dolphins?
Relax, it's just a rhetorical question:mooner:
cbborromeo
February 8th, 2007, 05:46 PM
Wow, 29 pages worth of arguing over dolphin massacre? Who's got that amount of time to argue that much on a forum? I can't see this thread going that way, specially since clubbing is kills the seals immediately. What they do in Japan is purely cultural and totally in-humane (unless someone has evidence to suggest otherwise) in my opinion. For a society that depends so much on the sea, the Japanese fishing folks really haven't caught on to sustainable fishing.
PUGMASTER
February 8th, 2007, 05:47 PM
I saw a dog once, run up to a mountain sheep that was tangled in some barbed wire from an old fence. It was very disturbing to watch this dog go at it. NOT PRETTY!!!
There was also a time when I went flying to a remote location for a Native caribou hunt and they needed help to get them home..... NOT a PRETTY STORY.
The point I'm making is that if one looks closely at the postings, hunters are alot more accepting. The people at home sipping God knows what and chubbying (not a word I know) up on the couch with no clue other than to what's going on in their own livingroom, get all bent backwards and need to speeeel.(again another word).
I get disturbed even watching some of the Discovery channel programs on the world of animals and the strong keep alive, fittest....
Life is what it is, There's a demand for seals and we have or could have population problems with them...
SeanQ
February 8th, 2007, 05:53 PM
This should be a poll called "Seal or No Seal: Canada".
Diver Dennis
February 8th, 2007, 05:56 PM
This should be a poll called "Seal or No Seal: Canada".
:rofl3: :rofl3: :rofl3:
cerich
February 8th, 2007, 06:00 PM
funny thing is, the true problem, be it the dolphins in japan, seals and cod in Canada, the real root cause is us humans.
Maybe the poll should be
Are you willing to commit suicide to help save the environment?:popcorn:
cbborromeo
February 8th, 2007, 06:01 PM
Yes, another poll is exactly what we need. On the other hand, your little picture icon of Canadian Club just given me a better idea, thanks SeanQ.
file:///C:/TEMP/moz-screenshot.jpg
Sponsored Link
PUGMASTER
February 8th, 2007, 06:02 PM
TOUCHE:eyebrow:
wardric
February 8th, 2007, 06:04 PM
This should be a poll called "Seal or No Seal: Canada".
It seems like some here are much more knowledgeable than I am on the subject, so please forgive this stupid question:
If cod populations are endangered, wouldn't it make more sense to stop overfishing them, rather than clubbing their natural predators to death?
Secondly, even if it is 'necessary' to control the seal population - isn't there a more humane way to do it? I realize that there are other species around the world that carry with them the same problem, such as kangaroos in Australia. However, most if not all of these overpopulation problems are largely a result of human activity.
It seems like some here are much more knowledgeable than I am on the subject, so please forgive this stupid question:
If cod populations are endangered, wouldn't it make more sense to stop overfishing them, rather than clubbing their natural predators to death?
Secondly, even if it is 'necessary' to control the seal population - isn't there a more humane way to do it? I realize that there are other species around the world that carry with them the same problem, such as kangaroos in Australia. However, most if not all of these overpopulation problems are largely a result of human activity.
There is no cod fishing in Eastern Canada anymore.
As posted before, this is information on the killing method...
Myth #3: The club – or hakapik – is a barbaric and inhumane tool that has no place in today’s world.
Reality: Hunting methods were studied by the Royal Commission on Seals and Sealing in Canada and it found that the clubbing of seals, when properly performed, is at least as humane as, and often more humane than, the killing methods used in commercial slaughterhouses, which are accepted by the majority of the public.
Clubs have been used by sealers since the onset of the hunt hundreds of years ago. Hakapiks originated with Norwegian sealers who found it very effective. A 2002 report published in the Canadian Veterinary Journal found that the club or hakapik is an efficient tool designed to kill the animal quickly and humanely.
pakman
February 9th, 2007, 02:44 AM
Dennis, think of the export potential on the hakapik... Have you guys thought about finding a Japanese distributor?:eyebrow: Maybe also send a few free samples to the Aussies to try on Skippy...
:joke:
Diver Dennis
February 9th, 2007, 02:45 AM
Dennis, think of the export potential on the hakapik... Have you guys thought about finding a Japanese distributor?:eyebrow: Maybe also send a few free samples to the Aussies to try on Skippy...
:joke:
:rofl3: :rofl3: :rofl3:
Actually, I was thinking I could use one here...;)
pakman
February 9th, 2007, 02:47 AM
:rofl3: :rofl3: :rofl3:
Actually, I was thinking I could use one here...;)
to give out to the mods? think how quickly they could kill mindless threads with that. Of course in a very humane way... :rofl3:
Diver Dennis
February 9th, 2007, 02:51 AM
to give out to the mods? think how quickly they could kill mindless threads with that. Of course in a very humane way... :rofl3:
:11: :11: :rofl3: :rofl3:
Mike Veitch
February 9th, 2007, 02:52 AM
i love baby seal threads
JimLap
February 9th, 2007, 03:00 AM
Me too. they are good for sewing up my raccoon dog fur slippers!
Well, I guess the consensus opinion on this subject is pretty obvious.
I'm not going to get all high and mighty on y'all, even though I happen to like the seals in my local waters.
I have played that game on newgrounds.com before, and laughed when I played it (it was many years ago now). Like all video games though, it can be fun to do things in the game that you wouldn't necessarily find fun to do in real life. Though I must admit some of you here would probably enjoy that to a great degree as well, from the sounds of it! :eyebrow:
Thanks for the responses. I learned quite a few things, not only about seals and population, etc., but also about how people view the practice of clubbing them.
cerich
February 9th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Well, I guess the consensus opinion on this subject is pretty obvious.
I'm not going to get all high and mighty on y'all, even though I happen to like the seals in my local waters.
I have played that game on newgrounds.com before, and laughed when I played it (it was many years ago now). Like all video games though, it can be fun to do things in the game that you wouldn't necessarily find fun to do in real life. Though I must admit some of you here would probably enjoy that to a great degree as well, from the sounds of it! :eyebrow:
Thanks for the responses. I learned quite a few things, not only about seals and population, etc., but also about how people view the practice of clubbing them.
I think you're missing our point.:blinking:
We actually like seals as well and it isn't a mater of wishing then harm, the opposit in fact. What you are seeing is a somewhat more pragmatic "country mouse" approach to the relationship of animals and humans when it comes to harvesting and control versus a "city mouse" approach that hasn't ever had the need to approach animals that way because the "country mouse" does it for you.
akbpilot
February 9th, 2007, 03:31 PM
funny thing is, the true problem, be it the dolphins in japan, seals and cod in Canada, the real root cause is us humans.
Maybe the poll should be
Are you willing to commit suicide to help save the environment?:popcorn:
I've used this comment many times in my "discussions" with animal rights activists here in Alaska. I have never had any takers. Most are not even willing to alter their own lifestyle, which they consider the standard to judge all others.
wardric
February 9th, 2007, 03:39 PM
We have seal in the atlantic portion of my province. It's called Gaspésie and I dived there last year. To see my first gracefull seal meet me at 60' deep was one of the nicest thing I ever saw while diving. They are very playful and like to play with our fins. I love seals as I love any animal on this earth.
Like deer. I like to see them all year long, but that doesn't stop me from hunting them during fall. I see myself as part of the ecosystem (circle of life sounds too much "Lion King" ;)), I happen to eat meat. I feel less hypocrit when I kill what I eat myself instead of letting others do the dirty job. I do it with all the respect for my prey that it deserve. I do my best so it will suffer the least. The kill part is the one I like the less in deer hunting, but it's part of it. Tracking, shooting, preparing the meat and eating it.
Would I "enjoy" clubbing a seal? surely not. Do I find it acceptable and necessary? Yes. And I have great respect for the ones who chose to do it.
Diver Dennis
February 9th, 2007, 03:40 PM
Well put Eric.
Calvin Tang
February 9th, 2007, 06:54 PM
We have seal in the atlantic portion of my province. It's called Gaspésie and I dived there last year. To see my first gracefull seal meet me at 60' deep was one of the nicest thing I ever saw while diving. They are very playful and like to play with our fins. I love seals as I love any animal on this earth.
Like deer. I like to see them all year long, but that doesn't stop me from hunting them during fall. I see myself as part of the ecosystem (circle of life sounds too much "Lion King" ;)), I happen to eat meat. I feel less hypocrit when I kill what I eat myself instead of letting others do the dirty job. I do it with all the respect for my prey that it deserve. I do my best so it will suffer the least. The kill part is the one I like the less in deer hunting, but it's part of it. Tracking, shooting, preparing the meat and eating it.
Would I "enjoy" clubbing a seal? surely not. Do I find it acceptable and necessary? Yes. And I have great respect for the ones who chose to do it.
Wow, I guess you learn something new every day. I didn't know that people hunted seals - as in - just one, to eat. I guess us 'city mice' only see the videos of them being clubbed, one after another. Kudos to you if you eat the whole damn thing, then make some seal skin slippers out of the skin. I figure, if you're going to kill em, might as well do so for good reason. So, for your purposes - do you still hunt the young ones, or do you go for the larger/older ones?
You do have to admit though, this is quite different than the mass harvesting where they simply skin the best part of the young seals, leaving the carcasses to freeze/decay on the ice. Am I right?
wardric
February 9th, 2007, 08:01 PM
Wow, I guess you learn something new every day. I didn't know that people hunted seals - as in - just one, to eat. I guess us 'city mice' only see the videos of them being clubbed, one after another. Kudos to you if you eat the whole damn thing, then make some seal skin slippers out of the skin. I figure, if you're going to kill em, might as well do so for good reason. So, for your purposes - do you still hunt the young ones, or do you go for the larger/older ones?
You do have to admit though, this is quite different than the mass harvesting where they simply skin the best part of the young seals, leaving the carcasses to freeze/decay on the ice. Am I right?
Maybe it's the language barrier but I dont understand your post. :huh:
I never said I hunted seals, I said deer. When I wrote: Like deer. I like to see them all year long, but that doesn't stop me from hunting them... "them" refered to deers. there's a dot after deer, not a ","
If I would kill a seal, (which I never did), you bet there would not be much left of it. I try to waste the least possible.
Your second paragraph is unfortunately taken from the video propaganda.
You say mass killing because it's in a concentrated area but in numbers, it does not exceed many other hunted animals. And when deer are killed, where do you think we put the guts? It's left in the forest and of course, it's not as visual as it would be on white ice or snow. And even on the ice, it will not rot since it becomes a source of food for scavenger birds and foxes. Nothing is ever lost for everyone on this lovely planet. :)
Since it seems to me from your last posts that you either dont read our posts correctly or want to bait us, I think you might be trolling just a bit so I will not reply anymore if it looks like a bait :sigh: If you're not trolling, then it's just a misunderstanding and all is well.
Brand0n
February 9th, 2007, 09:23 PM
I am A ok with the seal hunt. I currently dive for Fish Farms in east nova scotia, i see first hand the damage a seal can do. 1 seal gets into a salmon cage and will kill 2000 fish just eating there liver and leaving the rest of the fish to rot.
mikerault
February 9th, 2007, 10:41 PM
How about research into a sterilization drug that could be shot via a dart gun? No clubbing, just pffft! No more little seal babies for that seal...target a certain percentage of the breeding population.
Doc Harry
February 10th, 2007, 02:45 AM
During a similar debate about hunting, a European prime minister was quoted as saying:
"Why do you have to kill animals to eat? Why can't you just eat beef like the rest of us?"
wardric
February 10th, 2007, 09:05 AM
During a similar debate about hunting, a European prime minister was quoted as saying:
"Why do you have to kill animals to eat? Why can't you just eat beef like the rest of us?"
:rofl3: :rofl3: :rofl3:
tedtim
February 10th, 2007, 12:19 PM
How about research into a sterilization drug that could be shot via a dart gun? No clubbing, just pffft! No more little seal babies for that seal...target a certain percentage of the breeding population.We could use it on humans too. Just think, control the human population so we don't end up with too many of us on this small planet. Hey, there was a very populous country that had a one child policy. People tried to get rid of the unwanted children.
Which seals would you pick and what criteria would you use? Random? One in five? The ones that look to be the most frisky?
Calvin Tang
February 11th, 2007, 01:58 PM
Maybe it's the language barrier but I dont understand your post. :huh:
I never said I hunted seals, I said deer. When I wrote: Like deer. I like to see them all year long, but that doesn't stop me from hunting them... "them" refered to deers. there's a dot after deer, not a ","
If I would kill a seal, (which I never did), you bet there would not be much left of it. I try to waste the least possible.
Your second paragraph is unfortunately taken from the video propaganda.
You say mass killing because it's in a concentrated area but in numbers, it does not exceed many other hunted animals. And when deer are killed, where do you think we put the guts? It's left in the forest and of course, it's not as visual as it would be on white ice or snow. And even on the ice, it will not rot since it becomes a source of food for scavenger birds and foxes. Nothing is ever lost for everyone on this lovely planet. :)
Since it seems to me from your last posts that you either dont read our posts correctly or want to bait us, I think you might be trolling just a bit so I will not reply anymore if it looks like a bait :sigh: If you're not trolling, then it's just a misunderstanding and all is well.
Nope, misunderstanding. Apologies.
I won't be commenting further on the subject and thank you for the responses.
wardric
February 11th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Nope, misunderstanding.
It happens a lot on internet.
Apologies from my side too then. Thanks for helping to keep this discussion civil and friendly.
Calvin Tang
February 17th, 2007, 04:21 AM
Sorry to revive this dead topic but....
I just came across this video (http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin) (beware, this is *very* gruesome footage) of dolphins being massacred mercilessly in Japan. I don't think of myself as an animal rights crusader, and I probably use plenty of products that involve testing on lab mice, etc. But, is this type of stuff really necessary? Do those of you who defended the practice of seal clubbing also feel the same way about the 'harvesting' of these dolphins in this way?
Please know that this is not a loaded question; I don't anticipate an answer one way or another, I just wonder where the line is drawn in other peoples' minds, perhaps as a better way to understand my own thinking on the tough subject.
To me, it is inevitable that we kill other organisms to survive, and to some extent, even to enjoy ourselves at the expense of animals. I guess I personally just don't see a life of a bug, a plant or a cow equal to that of a seal, dolphin or elephant. I suppose, perhaps wrongly, that slaughterhouses are much more of a necessary - as a means to provide food to our society - than is killing dolphins for their meat. I know that from a logical standpoint, this thinking likely contains a number of fallacies - but that's just the best I have at this point.
Your thoughts?
DivetheRock
February 17th, 2007, 11:50 AM
funkyspelunker,
I live in Newfoundland, so I know a little bit about the seal harvest (not an expert by any means, though). For me, it always comes down to how humanely an animal is killed...no matter what type of animal, big or small. I don't agree with the seal hunt, nor do I disagree with it. Once again, it comes down to how the animal is killed. I think clubbing anything is inhumane, but from my experience and knowledge, people are mostly using guns these days. Do we have to kill seals?...I don't know. When I was a child my mother used to cook seal for us. I enjoyed seal back then, but I haven't had it in years. It was a source of food. We also ate a lot of fish (especially cod), moose, rabbit, turr, partridge, grouse, etc. Was that necessary? Well, it was food, and it depends on family income for many folks (at least back then it did).
I feel that killing an animal solely for the "fur" is unnecessary (and there's a difference between fashion clothes and the type that the native people <Inuit> of, say, Labrador, wear).
Sometimes our emotions get the better of us, and we find it hard to kill animals that look cute, or may resemble us (particularly human babies/children). But that's not necessarily a bad thing, is it? When I was younger (teenager) I used to hunt, but I would not be able to kill a living creature now (haven't since I was 20 yrs. old).
There's a mink farm where I live. Now there's a cruel situation. Just one of many. Once again, it's just for the fur. Why not just wear something manmade (synthetic)?
As for the slaughterhouses, I hate to think of it, but that's another fact of life. Incidentally, my wife and I are having homemade cheeseburgers for dinner - I haven't given it much more thought than "I'm hungry"...strange behaviour, hey?
There's so many ways to look at these issues, but there's also a lot of factors to consider (e.g. propoganda vs. truth).
wardric
February 17th, 2007, 12:08 PM
funkyspelunker,
I live in Newfoundland, so I know a little bit about the seal harvest (not an expert by any means, though). For me, it always comes down to how humanely an animal is killed...no matter what type of animal, big or small. I don't agree with the seal hunt, nor do I disagree with it. Once again, it comes down to how the animal is killed. I think clubbing anything is inhumane, but from my experience and knowledge, people are mostly using guns these days. Do we have to kill seals?...I don't know. When I was a child my mother used to cook seal for us. I enjoyed seal back then, but I haven't had it in years. It was a source of food. We also ate a lot of fish (especially cod), moose, rabbit, turr, partridge, grouse, etc. Was that necessary? Well, it was food, and it depends on family income for many folks (at least back then it did).
I feel that killing an animal solely for the "fur" is unnecessary (and there's a difference between fashion clothes and the type that the native people <Inuit> of, say, Labrador, wear).
Sometimes our emotions get the better of us, and we find it hard to kill animals that look cute, or may resemble us (particularly human babies/children). But that's not necessarily a bad thing, is it? When I was younger (teenager) I used to hunt, but I would not be able to kill a living creature now (haven't since I was 20 yrs. old).
There's a mink farm where I live. Now there's a cruel situation. Just one of many. Once again, it's just for the fur. Why not just wear something manmade (synthetic)?
As for the slaughterhouses, I hate to think of it, but that's another fact of life. Incidentally, my wife and I are having homemade cheeseburgers for dinner - I haven't given it much more thought than "I'm hungry"...strange behaviour, hey?
There's so many ways to look at these issues, but there's also a lot of factors to consider (e.g. propoganda vs. truth).
good post DTR,
As for synthetics, well we have to consider also that it is a non renewable ressource (made of petroleum products) and that it is also a polluting industry. Fur on the other hand is a renewable and non polluting ressource if done in a controlled way with quotas and lots of studies. So if we have to wear something, like we do in our frozen land, maybe we should not put fur or leather aside. I do prefer synthetics for trecking and mountaineering but I dont think fur should be demonised.
But I agree that if we kill for fur, why not take the meat also. I think that if you kill an animal, you should try to use as much as possible everything you can, as of respect for this animal. Beavers and muskrats have excellent meat :)
btw, could we stick to seals because those dolphins threads have a tendency to become nasty and I would hate this one to degenerate and get closed ;)
Maybe a new dolphin thread if necessary :sigh:
DivetheRock
February 17th, 2007, 12:29 PM
wardric, I'm clean of any responsibility re: the dolphin post...notice I didn't even use the word dolphin. ;-)
I agree with you, BTW, about the synthetic topic. I also agree about the leather and fur, too. I was merely referring to a possible alternative to fur for the fashion minded individual. :-) I didn't bother to proceed about the pollution, etc. A good point , though.
There was a very good program on the Documentary channel a couple nights ago about sealing and NL. There was an interesting point brought up, about that which I have seen firsthand. Every year hunters come from around the world (US, Germany, GB) to NL (and Quebec, too, as you know) to hunt moose, bear, caribou, and other "game". I know that many if not the majority of these animals carcasses are left behind to rot, while the hunter makes off with his/her trophy head/antlers/pelt. Now, that's a waste! It shouldn't be allowed in our country, or at least give the meat to a family that needs it. Seals, same thing.
LetterBoy
February 17th, 2007, 12:40 PM
I sure like my new dolphin skin boots :popcorn:
J/K :D :D :D
wardric
February 17th, 2007, 12:45 PM
as long as you ate the dolphin's fins John, that's fine... ;)
:joke:
wardric
February 17th, 2007, 12:48 PM
wardric, I'm clean of any responsibility re: the dolphin post...notice I didn't even use the word dolphin. ;-)
I agree with you, BTW, about the synthetic topic. I also agree about the leather and fur, too. I was merely referring to a possible alternative to fur for the fashion minded individual. :-) I didn't bother to proceed about the pollution, etc. A good point , though.
There was a very good program on the Documentary channel a couple nights ago about sealing and NL. There was an interesting point brought up, about that which I have seen firsthand. Every year hunters come from around the world (US, Germany, GB) to NL (and Quebec, too, as you know) to hunt moose, bear, caribou, and other "game". I know that many if not the majority of these animals carcasses are left behind to rot, while the hunter makes off with his/her trophy head/antlers/pelt. Now, that's a waste! It shouldn't be allowed in our country, or at least give the meat to a family that needs it. Seals, same thing.
Yeah, the guides on Anticosti island (a deer hunter's paradise) told me that many american trophy hunters came there only for antlers. At least, the meat was not wasted and was given to the guides. But I agree it's not always the case...
Bryan
February 17th, 2007, 12:59 PM
We could use it on humans too. Just think, control the human population so we don't end up with too many of us on this small planet. Hey, there was a very populous country that had a one child policy. People tried to get rid of the unwanted children.
While humane, using the hakapik on unwanted children might be frowned upon in some locales...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fa/Hakapik.jpg/180px-Hakapik.jpghttp://perfectbabyshower.com/clipart/babypink.gif
LetterBoy
February 17th, 2007, 01:02 PM
as long as you ate the dolphin's fins John, that's fine... ;)
:joke:
. . . .SHEW. . . . Does that mean my shark skin boots and my ostrich skin boots are ok as well?
wardric
February 17th, 2007, 01:06 PM
. . . .SHEW. . . . Does that mean my shark skin boots and my ostrich skin boots are ok as well?
I guess.
Now, It's dinner time, my manatee steak is ready. Later ;):D
:joke:
dlndavid
February 17th, 2007, 01:25 PM
oh my god :sprint:
Diver Dennis
February 17th, 2007, 01:27 PM
While humane, using the hakapik on unwanted children might be frowned upon in some locales...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fa/Hakapik.jpg/180px-Hakapik.jpghttp://perfectbabyshower.com/clipart/babypink.gif
Like Rwanda? Not much of an uproar then while over 800,000 men, women and children were murdered, a lot of them hacked to death.
SeanQ
February 17th, 2007, 05:10 PM
I am A ok with the seal hunt. I currently dive for Fish Farms in east nova scotia, i see first hand the damage a seal can do. 1 seal gets into a salmon cage and will kill 2000 fish just eating there liver and leaving the rest of the fish to rot.
Ask a pacific salmon fisherman about the damage farms are doing to wild stock.
There's a good topic for a new thread.
LetterBoy
February 17th, 2007, 05:34 PM
Like Rwanda? Not much of an uproar then while over 800,000 men, women and children were murdered, a lot of them hacked to death.
Thats ok though. . . as long as we save the whales and dolphins and that cute little bog turtle that lives in the mud behind my parents house :shakehead
Brand0n
February 17th, 2007, 06:27 PM
Ask a pacific salmon fisherman about the damage farms are doing to wild stock.
There's a good topic for a new thread.
what kind of damage?? i didnt think they hurt them at all, they just sit in there cages eat grow get harvested.
DivetheRock
February 17th, 2007, 06:40 PM
Not to be argumentative, Brand0n, but something struck me as ironic when I read your post about how "1 seal gets into a salmon cage and will kill 2000 fish just eating there liver and leaving the rest of the fish to rot."
Similar to: 1 sealer gets onto the ice and will kill ***enter quota figure here* seals just pelting their hides for their fur and leaving the rest of the seal to rot.
Hmmm...
Again, my beef is just how humanely the execution is carried out, and not fully using the animal. BTW, NB salmon from farms rule (mouth watering...), never had NS products, though.
Brand0n
February 17th, 2007, 07:11 PM
well then they kill the fish for the liver, we kill them for the pelt,it all works out.
I caught this one in one of the farms, gonna feed me for a week
SeanQ
February 17th, 2007, 08:13 PM
what kind of damage?? i didnt think they hurt them at all, they just sit in there cages eat grow get harvested.
In an ideal world, they would. The salmon farmed here not are Salmo salar, which is not native to the area. Unfortunatly, they can frequently escape from the pens and compete with the wild species. Aside from competition, the farms are breeding grounds for pathogens, primarily sea lice and bacteria, which spread to the pacific salmon.
http://www.raincoastresearch.org/home.htm
I don't know about the situation on the east coast; but, you couldn't pay me to eat farmed salmon from BC.
Brand0n
February 17th, 2007, 09:31 PM
Well here on the east coast i have not seen one salmon with sea lice most fish look healthy except a few football shaped fish and fish with giant kinks.
jumbo
February 17th, 2007, 10:39 PM
I dont know about you guys but I hunt with mace and a mag lite
LetterBoy
February 17th, 2007, 11:10 PM
I dont know about you guys but I hunt with mace and a mag lite
How do you kill seals with mace and a maglite?? :rofl3:
Tigerman
February 17th, 2007, 11:57 PM
Well here on the east coast i have not seen one salmon with sea lice most fish look healthy except a few football shaped fish and fish with giant kinks.
Sadly for you and your argument, you dont SEE all the parasites fish get, just like you dont SEE the virus and bacteria that make you sick..
If you want to discuss animal cruelty however, you can skip right past whaling, seal clobbering, hunting, fishing and the rest and go for the bullfighting...
Diver Dennis
February 18th, 2007, 12:17 AM
Or this... http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/animal_cruelty/crush_videos.php
http://www.idausa.org/facts/fighting.html
DivetheRock
February 18th, 2007, 06:02 AM
If you want to discuss animal cruelty however, you can skip right past whaling, seal clobbering, hunting, fishing and the rest and go for the bullfighting...
Couldn't agree more with you here...excellent point. It goes on all the time, every year.
BTW, Brand0n, nice lookin' fish! How much did it weigh?
My wife's uncle works (management member, I believe) at a salmon farm in St.Stephen's, NB (I think this is accurate)...I know they live in St.George. Anyway,...
Calvin Tang
February 18th, 2007, 01:18 PM
I also agree that this is a good post/response DTR. I guess this is what I was looking for when i first posted here on this topic; Someone's honest experience who lives nearer to the happenings than I do. I am surprised at how many macho-sans-substance replies this topic brings.
It also seems that this topic has gone around and around on SB in the past, to the point where it can't be seriously discussed any longer. DTR & Wadric, feel free to PM me and I will direct you to a place where these issues are being freshly and intelligently discussed. I think both of you have valid and thoughtful views on the subject and others can benefit as a result.
About petroleum products and synthetic clothing, I *believe* those garments are made from excess portions of product from the fuel refining process, so buying this type of clothing actually reduces the amount of waste material, rather than increases it. I could be wrong about this though, but that is my inclination.
good post DTR,
As for synthetics, well we have to consider also that it is a non renewable ressource (made of petroleum products) and that it is also a polluting industry. Fur on the other hand is a renewable and non polluting ressource if done in a controlled way with quotas and lots of studies. So if we have to wear something, like we do in our frozen land, maybe we should not put fur or leather aside. I do prefer synthetics for trecking and mountaineering but I dont think fur should be demonised.
But I agree that if we kill for fur, why not take the meat also. I think that if you kill an animal, you should try to use as much as possible everything you can, as of respect for this animal. Beavers and muskrats have excellent meat :)
btw, could we stick to seals because those dolphins threads have a tendency to become nasty and I would hate this one to degenerate and get closed ;)
Maybe a new dolphin thread if necessary :sigh:
DivetheRock
February 18th, 2007, 06:01 PM
funkyspelunker,
Thanks for the invite to discuss these issues. I am, however, not one who seeks out to debate. Truthfully, I saw your post and just wanted to give my meager 2 cents - but that's it. These issues affect people differently across the board, but no matter what one could say there are those who set out to make war over such subjects (and I don't need my B/P raised over it). :-)
I know what I know from my experiences, but it's a Rubic's Cube of problems in our world. Tigerman, for example, brought up a very good point. And, you know what, no matter what we say, it's not going to change the fact that there will be seals clubbed this season; there will be bulls stabbed to death this year and the next and the next...; dolphins will continue to be slaughtered; wildlife hunted as trophies; bear farms in China;....you get my point.
Debating this via the internet, IMHumbleO, is moot.
(I'll continue to read these posts, though.) :-)
Thrillhouse
February 19th, 2007, 04:25 AM
Make no mistake the seal hunt is a very visually disturbing sght for most people, then again so is watching cattle, chicken or hogs slaughtered. Personally, I think this is a very important point to emphasise. The bottom line is that seals are cute, and attract a lot of public-attention because of it. While the annual slaughter of their populations up north attracts huge attention, many "less cute" animals that are also hunted off go unnoticed, and in places like Africa or Asia, are sometimes endangered species, which is far worse. Harp-seals are cute, but from an ecological point of view, the culling of their numbers is currently needed to maintain biodiversity, according to Fisheries Canada.
That being said, I personally support it for that reason. I'm not a fan of trophy hunting, but as it stands now, the hunt is needed to keep things in check. Of course it would be best to have a totally self-sustaining ecosystem, but 300 years of human habitation have so far made that impossible in the area. No one likes the idea of a seal getting clubbed to death, but I personally prefer a harp-seal having a chance against a clubber than a farm-animal having NO chance in a slaughter-house. In the end, the local ecosystems prosper, and those are ultimately more important than the individual lives of seals, as ecosystems have the potential to support many many many many MANY generations of creatures who will never be clubbed. ;) There was an awesome article I read in my enviro. ethics class about extinction, and how wrong it is... Basically, the extinction of a species is the 'ultimate ecological evil', as it doesn't only result in immediate suffering, but the ultimate end to both life AND death, eternally, of that speices and all its numbers. Once gone, they're lost. Things like the seal-hunt, according to what I've heard, help prevent this from happening.
Is it because of the myths then that seal hunting is seen as barbaric? Is seal meat sold and consumed widely in Canada? While most my life has been spent in the west, I've never once seen seal-meat for sale. Aside from remote communities, it is, like in the states, an extremely exotic foodstuff which you'll never see in a local supermarket.
All this being said, I personally have much more of a problem with Japanese/Norwegian whaling, or the hunting/poaching of endangered species. I know the above is a strong opinion, and don't mean to come off hard-headed... I'm open-minded, but to date this is how I've encountered the issue.
haha49
March 8th, 2007, 03:32 AM
It's well documented that Cod population has ben descimated by overfishing and bottom trolling which kill the reefs. I must be missing something here, but I can't see why culling seal will help cod population rebound.
Furthermore, there are better ways of killing seal than clubbing them to death. I've never been on a deer hunt before, but I can assure you they don't club them to death.
I'm not against keeping the seal population in check to protect against disease or starvation , but there are much better ways of going about it don't you think?
as for killing them.. they pop up above the water near the ice and people bop them on the head and throw them into the pile..
i say let the people hunt they have to make a living some how its like saying all fishing is bad.. i feel that alot of people are against it because of the pups.. but too the fishermen they are a pest like deer are too farmers.. the sea lion will go into there nets eat all the fish and let the fisherman have nothing.. ive been fishing and after spendins hours and hours fianly catching something the sea lion comes up and gives you the fish head and sits there and taunghts you.. people have to make a liveing off fishing and if something did that too you you would want to bonk it over the head as well.. i have nothing agianst seals though.. they not as anoying.. i mean people get all up set about something and they say its babaric what really worse then seal hunting is chickens they live in a steel cage then get eaten talk about a crap life.. cows are another animail people dont think about i mean they jab a metal rod into its brain to kill it..
if you try not to kill the sea lion by hiting it over the head its probly going to bite you i mean cows are hearded around a metal girter and killed one at a time and they keep moveing foward towards death a seal lion will atually hurt you..
