Forum consensus inquiry

[marksm]

Just trying to get a feel for what users expect from the group trips forum.

I had a recent post about some openings on an Australia trip the first week of April deleted because it was considered spamming the board to post such items. And yet, I see many many items mentioning just that sort of thing. As a new user to the forum, I am confused.

I have been diving for many years and helping a local shop out as an independent instructor. As a thank you, they offered me one of the comp spots on their group trip. Unfortunately some people just cancelled and I lost my spot. The owner said if I could get the spots filled, then I could go on the trip.

So I searched the web and found this forum which seemed an ideal place to mention such openings because there were so many other such openings mentioned.

I hope, that as a community of divers, the decision to delete my post was not based on seniority, cronyism, or another personal censure method. That would be a shame and a diservice to all.

Now of course as a new member making some waves as I giant stride into this abyss, I have no idea whom I may have just accidentily insulted with my little story. However, I assure you no disrepect was intended. It takes a lot of effort to moderate these type of boards, I know, I have done it myself for some of my other hobbies. I respect and appreciate the efforts the moderators are puting forth.

There are lines not to be crossed when posting to boards like advertising a fin special or rudely stomping on another's opinion. It is my opinion, that posting open slots on trips is a perfect use for this "group trips" forum. I would like to know yours.

Of course there is a chance this little ditty will be deleted as well.

Cheers and g'day.

Mark Santa-Maria
SSIOWI #103666

[11B3Y]

I had a recent post about some openings on an Australia trip the first week of April deleted because it was considered spamming the board to post such items.

Were you notified your thread was deleted and the reason? I am a bit curious myself. Although I never saw your thread, I am interested in knowing why it was deleted.

Just curious......

Thomas

[AquaTec]

Me too.

I was considering advertising a trip up here to BC, to see if anyone wants to go.

I see trips advertised here which i think are "pre aproved"

I also see DIR courses advertised all the time here.

would I not be allowed to do the same....if not then i think we should have a section on the board for trips course, etc

[marksm]

Yes, I was notified and it was a polite and couteous notification. It follows...
--------------------------------
"Hi Marksm

Welcome to ScubaBoard.

I just wanted to let you know that I have removed your post advertising your shop's trip to Australia . Our members consider posts that simply advertise a product, shop, service or website to be spamming the board, which we do not allow.

I look forward to your continued participation on the Scuba Board forums. If there is anything I can do for you, please let me know and thank you for your cooperation."
--------------------------

I won't repost my original message because I don't think that would be appropriate. If the moderator wishes to repost it so it can be discussed then that is up to them.

I don't believe; however, that it was any more or less a pitch for an open spot on a trip that I was seeing posted already. Seriously, it was just a mention of the openings and why I wanted to book them and I even gave my personal contact info and not the shops.

Thanks for replying.

Cheers!

Mark

[DiveTub]

G'day Mark
Where abouts in OZ are you planning on diving ?
when is your tirp planned

[marksm]

Well, it isn't looking very promising at this point but my comp spot was for the Spoilsport out of Townsville... a 7 day the 1st week of April. I hope I can still go but I only had a few days to rebook the cancelled spots. Story of my life.

From your moniker, I assume you are in Sydney and getting ready for the summer diving season while I'm trying to get out of the way of another Michigan winter. Good on you mate.

Thanks for replying.

Cheers!

Mark

[Rooster1]

I don't know the complete nature of your post because I didn't get a chance to read it so it is hard for me to make a fair judgement on it if it was spamming or not, but if it is as you say then I am sorry that it did get deleted.

I for one hate spam in my web based mail just like the junk mail that arrives in your home mail box and my biggest peave of all are the ****** telephone solicitors.

I wouldn't want to see this board go to lots of ads and constant spamming however If your post is as you said then IMHO I think you were a victim of Hypocricy and I say that because I have seen similar posts many times before as far as there being a spot on a charter or of that nature, not to mention other forms of selling right on the forums and not in the classifieds that goes unchallenged by the powers that be. Personally the pitches for open charters or trips have for the most part been nothing to worry about as far a spamming that I have seen and has seemed harmless and actually more helpful then harmful that is why I don't understand that yours' if it is as you say would have been deleted......that seems unfair and a hypocritical.:upset:

[Dee]

Mark, I believe Ladydiver was the one who removed your post. If you're going to quote a personal notification, you should put the author on it as well. If you have any further questions, I'd suggest you return her PM to you and ask her directly for a more thorough explaination.

One difference in your post and those already posted, is the authors are all long standing, well established members. You are a new member who posted the trip as your very first post. With no record here and no participation yet so folks can get a feel of whether you are an honest fellow or not. Nothing personal and I'm not calling you dishonest. I'm just trying, in my bumbling way, to point out the differences.

Only Ladydiver or King Neptune, the owner of this site, can fully explain it. As I suggested, you should ask them for further clarification.

[marksm]

Dee:

Thank you for responding. I'd rather have you bumble so we can come to an understanding then have me running for my flame proof suit. :)

Actually, I felt that saying who the private message was from was the wrong thing to do because my intention was not to drag any single person into it. Who deleted the post, IMO, wasn't as important as to why. I did not know that Ladydiver and King Neptune owned the site. I can now see your point as to why it may have been helpful.

Actually, I did request an explaination but have yet to receive a reply. To be fair, it has only been a day since I asked for a better understanding of why some charters and trips were allowed to be posted and mine was not. I assure you it was a polite and courteous message with referenced posts that I thought were very similar to mine.

I can appreciate the "established members" explanation. I see where that makes some sense. However, I wouldn't want to believe that being allowed to post trips and openings is based on how many posts you make to the forum or when you signed up.

IMHO, the merits of the post and its benefits to the members should be the deciding factor. If it is against the rules, then so be it for everyone. I am of the opinion; however, that posting vacancies is a great asset to the members and should be allowed to continue.

Dee, I really like the trip postings I see on the forum. The Wreckmania trip and Natasha's planning a singles trip are great ideas and I would love to participate and meet some of the forum members.

Last but not least, I'm sorry, in a way, that this entire thread will end up forming the first impression many forum members will have of me. This whole thing just struck a nerve with me. I just wanted to have an open discussion and I thank you for your response.

Cheers!

Mark

[Dee]

marksm once bubbled...
...I can appreciate the "established members" explanation. I see where that makes some sense. However, I wouldn't want to believe that being allowed to post trips and openings is based on how many posts you make to the forum or when you signed up.

IMHO, the merits of the post and its benefits to the members should be the deciding factor. If it is against the rules, then so be it for everyone. I am of the opinion; however, that posting vacancies is a great asset to the members and should be allowed to continue.

The "established members" is just one of my observations rather than an 'official' stance on things. LD will have to explain more fully what the 'official' rules are.


Dee, I really like the trip postings I see on the forum. The Wreckmania trip and Natasha's planning a singles trip are great ideas and I would love to participate and meet some of the forum members.

We look forward to your future participation and contributions. I'm sorry I couldn't give you a more definative answer, but I didn't want yo to think you were being ignored on a touchy subject. I hope you'll stick around. I've met so many people from this and other message boards that have become really good friends. If you ever get down Texas way, we'll add you to the list!


Last but not least, I'm sorry, in a way, that this entire thread will end up forming the first impression many forum members will have of me. This whole thing just struck a nerve with me. I just wanted to have an open discussion and I thank you for your response.

On the contrary, your entrance here has shown you to be a polite person, asking a reasonable question in an unthreathening manor. The same can't be said for others. You should see some of the faux pas us old "established members" have made in the past! Through your future posts, people will get to know you.

BTW...Welcome to Scuba Board! :out:

[Uncle Pug]

Dee once bubbled...
On the contrary, your entrance here has shown you to be a polite person, asking a reasonable question in an unthreathening manor.

BTW...Welcome to Scuba Board! :out:
I second Dee's motion... all in favor make pirate sounds.

[Ber Rabbit]

Welcome aboard!
Some of us are diving at Gilboa Nov. 16/17 if you want to show up and meet people! See the Kentucky Pirahna section of the board.
Ber :bunny:

[chepar]

While I cannot say anything as to the TOS, I can offer an observation from the viewpoint of someone reading the posts. I think Dee was onto something when she said:


Dee once bubbled...
One difference in your post and those already posted, is the authors are all long standing, well established members. You are a new member who posted the trip as your very first post.


Actually, I read your original post and didn't really see anything too bad with it. However, on the other side of the coin I have seen in the past questions from members concerning a certain geographical location, and someone coming along to respond with a "call me, here's my website, here's my email, here's my phone, this is what I charge, and by the way, I'M THE BEST!!!" They then proceed to put this on EVERY SINGLE post asking about this location. Better yet, a competitor of theirs then comes along and posts right after for their own establishment.

That is the kind of thing that bugs me - all advertising, no real participation. However, I hope you stick around and I hope to see more of your posts.

[marksm]

Chepar:

I am getting a sense of what you mean. As I currently understand it, the reason for my post being deleted may have been a well-meaning premptive strike by the moderator to prevent spamming. Not knowing who I am, or what my intentions were, I can accept that as a reasonable course to take.

However, as I had mentioned before, it struck a nerve because, to me, it didn't make sense looking in from the outside.

It may have come down to a judgement call by the moderator to delete my post. Certainly the moderator has more experience and knowledge of the board then I and consequently made the call they felt neccessary. I haven't seen the shenanigans that you speak of by "advertisers" but I believe you. I know even divers can be morons at times.

I still believe that posting openings on trips and charters is a great idea. Maybe it does need its own catagory although I believe "group trips" makes the most sense. That said, and after hearing your thoughts, it is quite possible that such a new catagory would be inundated with advertising spam.

This is a tough one but I'm glad we are talking about it.

Cheers!

Mark

[Natasha]

Hi Mark:
Welcome to scuba board. Just for the record we never delete posts. Your post was moved to our management forum.
Hope that makes you feel better.
Looking forward to your contributions as an instructor.
:)

[KC_Scubabunny]

Mark,

I happen to catch your original post before it was removed and I have to say that red flags went up for me because you were new and your primary sales pitch for the trip seemed to be "come go on this trip and fill a slot so I can go for free!" I understand that comp trips are a large part of the diving world but most are not quite so blantant in their promotion of it. I guess I should have seen it as a fantastic attempt at honesty but maybe your sales pitch could use some work!

That said, I don't think your intention was to spam and I also agree that your forum selection was correct for the type of post so as a long time member, I was not put off by it. I think your follow up posts have been very appropriate and I to look forward to your future participation on the board. I think you will find that your first impression of us was uncharacteristically abrupt but we are normally a very open-minded group.

Again Welcome Aboard,
:bunny: Heather :bunny:

[raviepoo]

[QUOTE]KC_Scubabunny once bubbled...
[B]Mark,

I understand that comp trips are a large part of the diving world but most are not quite so blantant in their promotion of it. I guess I should have seen it as a fantastic attempt at honesty but maybe your sales pitch could use some work!

[raxafarian]

Hi Mark... I saw your original post... then I saw that it had disappeared, and commented on that to one of the mods.

I saw nothing wrong with your post. You stated that you needed to fill a couple of slots or you would lose your free slot. I don't see many others running group trips talking about their free ride.

Heck... it was a group trip. He spelled out the deal. He's not a travel agent that will be advertising constantly.


Oh well... maybe you'll be allowed to post something like the following:

"Looking for a buddy...anyone interested in a liveaboard trip in Australia.... email me"

??? maybe not.

[raxafarian]

KC_Scubabunny once bubbled...
Mark,
...your primary sales pitch for the trip seemed to be "come go on this trip and fill a slot so I can go for free!" I understand that comp trips are a large part of the diving world but most are not quite so blantant in their promotion of it.


should they say "Hey, join me on this group trip. Pay more than you would if you set it up yourself, so I can go free"?

[Ladydiver]

a public matter, I will explain why the post was pulled. In Marksm's original post, he stated




The shop I work with (Aqua Hut) in Toledo has been planning a trip on the Spoilsport in Austrailia for some time now and just had four last minute cancellations.



This statement, coupled with the fact that this was one of his very first posts to the board made it look as if he were advertising the trip for the shop he works with. As most of you know, this kind of advertising is not allowed on Scuba Board without the prior consent of KN or myself.

If you see commercial posts about trips in the group trips forum, it is because the poster has contacted us to make arrangements for posting the details.

[marksm]

LadyDiver:

That was the missing piece for me. Thank you for getting down to the nitty gritty of it. I have come to an understanding now as to why it was removed. Thank you.

As the owner/moderator, I'm sure you have decisions like this to make fairly often and I don't envy your position.

I have remained very open and fair in my discussions throughout the entire thread in trying to figure out the conditions which allowed some posts and not others. Some forums have a "vibe" to them that takes a while to get the feel of. Knowing when you are crossing a line can be a subtle art in both real and cyber life.

Although, as a group, I never really got a feel for how users felt about freely being able to post regarding open slots; I learned enough to realize spamming the board has been an issue in the past and a problem requiring some tough love at times.

All that said, I want to thank you, KN, and all the moderators for presenting a great board.

Cheers!

Mark

PS... BTW, I really made an effort to find such a pre-approval clause before posting but didn't find it. I can really appreciate and respect your notice/warnings in the tek sections as the first post. Although, not the potential life saver they are in those forums, it might help here too in explaining the ground rules.