There is a good LDS out there!

[cstreu1026]

I dropped of the Sea Quest Radier I bought on Ebay for service tonight. The owner of the shop was actually happy that I got such a great deal online. Of course That might be because he knows I will be in next week to plunk down $600+ on a new Uwatec Smart Pro. Over all it was an absolutely wonderful experience dealing with this shop. Now if only he would make me a better deal on the computer. I guess I should consider myself lucky that he doesn't groan and mumble about people buying equipment online.

[jamiei]

no lds should grumble about a thing... they should be glad to have you coming in because there are plenty of other places you could go. I think LDS mentality is too stuck in the old days when they were your only source of equipment/service/knowledge within any reasonable distance and you were the one that couldn't grumble about a thing. One day all dive shops and the sport of diving will be different... hopefully we'll be alive to see it.

[scuba-punk]

The reason that I go to my LDS of choice is because of one thing that the owner told me. "I realise that you can get your gear anywhere. I really don't care where you get your gear, but I want you to know that I sincerely appreciate it when you do get stuff here." How cool is that? That why I drive 50 miles one way as many as 2 or 3 times a week to go diving in that area and patronize his shop. There are other LDS's closer to me that IMHO aren't worth the hassle of going there...

[MikeFerrara]

jamiei once bubbled...
no lds should grumble about a thing... they should be glad to have you coming in because there are plenty of other places you could go. I think LDS mentality is too stuck in the old days when they were your only source of equipment/service/knowledge within any reasonable distance and you were the one that couldn't grumble about a thing. One day all dive shops and the sport of diving will be different... hopefully we'll be alive to see it.

These days and LDS has plenty to grumble about but we shouldn't grumble to the customer we should grumble to the manufacturers and the cert agencies.

But for the record, one reason some of us get grumbly with the customer is because they come to us for all the things that we don't make any money on like air. The industry will be like this for a while.

In my town I hear there is a big water sports store opening up that will carry scuba gear and bunches of other stuff. Between that, the net and the horse poop ways of the manufacturers that will be the end of us.

their equipment will be cheaper and they will have a bigger in-stock selection but they will never be able to pass on the knowledge I do. Who cares, though when most think that between Rodales and the net that they already know it all.

Fast, cheap, lots of pretty colored gear that is useless to a diver who knows and nice resorts are what sells.

[jamiei]

hey, look at Walmart... do you shop there? Think of what they've done to their industry? Made tons of money and saved people a lot too... while putting countless small businesses out. If I pay $50 for a OW manual (PADI makes a little money) and I pay $250 for OW class time... maybe 20 hrs total and with 5 other people (you and padi make a little more money) and then pay $250 for open water dives... 10 hours including 100 mile round trip and with 5 other people (you and padi make a little more money). Thats $2,750 we've paid out for 30 hours of your time and PADI's resources. Thats almost $92/hour. Even if you split it 75/25 with PADI, you're getting $23/hour. Thats with only 5 people... what if you had 10 people? I realize you have overhead, but if you're not making decent money from certifications... PADI is screwing you... not us. If we can get equipment cheaper, most of us will be glad to spend more on trips/advanced certifications/etc. Not everyone that dives has plenty of money to spend on it. Businesses make money, not by ripping off the few customers they have, they make money by selling a lot of products/services. Walmart is a perfect example... they sell things cheaper (or used to), but make more money because so many more people buy from them. This is why all the online scuba stores can sell things so cheap.... they sell a higher volume and so could a LDS if they (and manufacturers/cert. agencies) changed their policies. Maybe an LDS shouldn't be selling equipment? Maybe there should be scuba superstores around. And they would offer the same knowledge, becaue YOU would be working there. If the sport didn't have so many people that had so much money to throw around, things would already be different I believe. It's different from walmart in that the majority of the population put walmart where it is... the majority of the people that dive put dive shops where they're at charging 100% markups because they can afford to pay it. Dive shops will not see any lasting growth because they aren't willing to meet the needs of the diver thats on a tighter budget.
Also, don't get me wrong... i feel for the LDS owner... its a bad spot to be in, but thats where change has to take place and the LDS has to speak for the divers because the manufacturers will only listen to you. Things will only change for YOU and US if you make them. I personally think that the cert. agencies should only get 10% of the costs of cert. plus card fees, etc. Another thing... if cert agencies take so much of the money... why won't any LDS tell you how much? Too many secrets...

[cstreu1026]

No body minds seeing the little guy go out of business, until its someone you know. Besides, have ever tried to find someone for some help in a Wal Mart. If you can actually find someone, chances are they don't know anything about what you want or even where it is at in the store. I have witnessed first hand the invasion of these mega stores. I work in a family run sporting goods store and have for the last 8 years. I have seen the other two major sporting goods retailers in the Cincinnati area go out of business thanks to the invasion of Dick's Sporting Goods. Fortunately for us we offer things that Dick's will never be able to. One of which is service. That is the one thing the LDS has to offer. I know it probably disappoints the LDS when I tell them that I bought my BC on Ebay. However, it was not a new BC so they didn'texactly loose a sale. Besides by buying someones used BC I am allowing someone else to buy a new one. Now I know that isn't the best philosophy or reasoning for buying online. By still providing good service and and complaining about my online purchase the LDS has earned my business, both now and in the future. Of course a good deal would be greatly appreciated by my broke college student budget.

[zboss]

I would never buy any diving stuff at a Wallmart-like place... the only knowledge the kid probably has of scuba diving is from when he worked in the Playstation area.

[jamiei]

not the point... what about at Lowe's... a lot of those guys are ex contractors... they have provided me with a lot of great info... and you know... the guy at the local hardware store doesn't know squat... You do shop at Walmart though don't you.... LDSs may have the knowledge of scuba... but not about business or sales, or true customer service. I've met very few in the dive industry that I consider truly helpful and "customer service oriented" besides those on this board. I convince myself of what I need to buy and I would buy a scubapro wetsuit from Walmart if they had it... or even a mk25/s600 if the price is right. If the product is the same... price is the only other consideration. I go to the LDS for some trips, education, little things like fills, service, and other small gear, but never again for major equipment purchases. I've been gouged already and its left a bad taste in my mouth. On the other hand, if a shop comes close to competing on price... they'll win my business... then and only then.

[MikeFerrara]

jamiei once bubbled...
hey, look at Walmart... do you shop there? Think of what they've done to their industry? Made tons of money and saved people a lot too... while putting countless small businesses out. If I pay $50 for a OW manual (PADI makes a little money) and I pay $250 for OW class time... maybe 20 hrs total and with 5 other people (you and padi make a little more money) and then pay $250 for open water dives... 10 hours including 100 mile round trip and with 5 other people (you and padi make a little more money). Thats $2,750 we've paid out for 30 hours of your time and PADI's resources. Thats almost $92/hour. Even if you split it 75/25 with PADI, you're getting $23/hour. Thats with only 5 people... what if you had 10 people? I realize you have overhead, but if you're not making decent money from certifications... PADI is screwing you... not us. If we can get equipment cheaper, most of us will be glad to spend more on trips/advanced certifications/etc. Not everyone that dives has plenty of money to spend on it. Businesses make money, not by ripping off the few customers they have, they make money by selling a lot of products/services. Walmart is a perfect example... they sell things cheaper (or used to), but make more money because so many more people buy from them. This is why all the online scuba stores can sell things so cheap.... they sell a higher volume and so could a LDS if they (and manufacturers/cert. agencies) changed their policies. Maybe an LDS shouldn't be selling equipment? Maybe there should be scuba superstores around. And they would offer the same knowledge, becaue YOU would be working there. If the sport didn't have so many people that had so much money to throw around, things would already be different I believe. It's different from walmart in that the majority of the population put walmart where it is... the majority of the people that dive put dive shops where they're at charging 100% markups because they can afford to pay it. Dive shops will not see any lasting growth because they aren't willing to meet the needs of the diver thats on a tighter budget.
Also, don't get me wrong... i feel for the LDS owner... its a bad spot to be in, but thats where change has to take place and the LDS has to speak for the divers because the manufacturers will only listen to you. Things will only change for YOU and US if you make them. I personally think that the cert. agencies should only get 10% of the costs of cert. plus card fees, etc. Another thing... if cert agencies take so much of the money... why won't any LDS tell you how much? Too many secrets...

I don't want to make this a real long discussion because we have hashed this stuff over so many times. The only money the agency gets from a cert is the cert fee itself (around $15) for a PADI class and the student materials. I have talked to some shop owners who make money on OW classes. They only do 5 or 6 hours in the pool and they stuff in between twenty and thirty students. We keep our class size small and spend 12 - 15 hours in the pool. With overhead I loose over $ 100 per student. I must sell mask, snorkel and fins to half the class just to break even. I don/t make any money unless some of those students take more classes and somebody buys equipment. Oh for a total class I have about 40 hours in it of my time alone thats only teaching not tank filling or equipment preperation of any of that. Also when I figured these costs I did not include travel or pay for the instructor, I work for free (so far). I also didn't figure in any DM costs. I don't give them a salary but I have to do domething for them and it costs me money. For me to make OW training a profit center I would need to get about $1000 dollars a head. Of course if the volume was higher the numbers would work out better but iit isn't.

The divers who just get OW and go on down the road (usually to the caribbean) and never further their training or buy equipment (from me) represent a loss. We must weed through them to find the others but I would be money way ahead if they never walked in the door. The airlines, resorts, charters and restraunts make money on the deal but not me.

[MikeFerrara]

"And they would offer the same knowledge, becaue YOU would be working there."

No I wouldn't. I opened my own shop because I won't even teach for anyone else.

What we are going to do is give this on-ine sales stuff a try. That's not real promissing though because most of the lines we carry don't let you sell that way and we don't have the capital to work the grey market end. If that doesn't work I will take my toys and slip off into the sunset and double or even triple the number of cave dives I do in a year.

[norcaldiver]

Mike, I agree, I'm planning on getting my instructor in a year or so, once I feel I'm ready for it. I just worked out these numbers. Keep in mind that the instructor that work at my LDS are contractors, not employeed or paid by the store.

Prices are within about $50 between shops in the area, depending on if they include the PADI OW books and video, but here’s my shops price. $229 for Open Water – all of it. No extra costs for ocean dives, or if you need an extra pool session, or if you can’t make the ocean dives and need to get pushed back to do checkout dives with another class/instructor.
What that includes is $25 to the store(which they actually loose money on because they have to pay “rent” to the pool for confined water), $79 for the rentals, and $100 to the instructor. What it doesn’t include is $50 for the OW pack, $30 for the video ($80 total) and your personal gear, which can run from $200-$500.

Now lets look at what the instructors make. $100 per student. Wow, if I could get about 10 students a week, I could make a pretty good amount. Unfortunatly, there’s more to it than that. Lets take a look at an average class – 6 people.
$100 x 6 people = $600
-$20 / pic = $480
-$50 for a DM = $430
-$16 for parking at the ocean = $414
-$25 for gas (2 hr rnd trip x 2 days to ocean) = $389
divide that by the 30 hours of pool/ocean instruction = $12.96 / hour
divide THAT by your 6 students = $2.16

So for a class of 6 people, I’d be raking in a whopping $2.16/hour for my time.

Now, do I wonder why some instructors are half-assed? Yup.

Am I rethinking going to IDC when I make $35/hour at my day job? Nope! I love diving and I love talking about diving with people and I love working with students, and I loved every minute of my DM internship-even setting that damned float…

Now, the Shop makes $79 on rentals, but they had to buy the rental gear inteh 1st place, eventually, it'st going to pay for itself and then make money for the shop, but $79 isn't a whole lot. They also make money on the personal gear, but there is the overhead (space, original purchase, salesman wages, etc.) and the PADI material. So really PADI makes, from what I can see IF EVERYTHING has 100% markup, is Material ($40) and PIC ($10). $50 a head. Still not great.

[jamiei]

how are you living if you don't make any money?

[jamiei]

it seems that your overhead is way too high for the volume you do. I don't make any money in my remodeling business either ;)

[MikeFerrara]

jamiei once bubbled...
how are you living if you don't make any money?

I have a day job. The 40 or 50 hours/week I put in at the shop is my donation to the community. My wife is in the shop full time. I don't mind donating her. It appears as though I will never even make back my initial investment. I would have shut it down already except it's like any other investment you don't loose until you sell.

If I only knew then what I know now.

[MikeFerrara]

norcaldiver once bubbled...
Mike, I agree, I'm planning on getting my instructor in a year or so, once I feel I'm ready for it. I just worked out these numbers. Keep in mind that the instructor that work at my LDS are contractors, not employeed or paid by the store.

Prices are within about $50 between shops in the area, depending on if they include the PADI OW books and video, but here’s my shops price. $229 for Open Water – all of it. No extra costs for ocean dives, or if you need an extra pool session, or if you can’t make the ocean dives and need to get pushed back to do checkout dives with another class/instructor.
What that includes is $25 to the store(which they actually loose money on because they have to pay “rent” to the pool for confined water), $79 for the rentals, and $100 to the instructor. What it doesn’t include is $50 for the OW pack, $30 for the video ($80 total) and your personal gear, which can run from $200-$500.

Now lets look at what the instructors make. $100 per student. Wow, if I could get about 10 students a week, I could make a pretty good amount. Unfortunatly, there’s more to it than that. Lets take a look at an average class – 6 people.
$100 x 6 people = $600
-$20 / pic = $480
-$50 for a DM = $430
-$16 for parking at the ocean = $414
-$25 for gas (2 hr rnd trip x 2 days to ocean) = $389
divide that by the 30 hours of pool/ocean instruction = $12.96 / hour
divide THAT by your 6 students = $2.16

So for a class of 6 people, I’d be raking in a whopping $2.16/hour for my time.

Now, do I wonder why some instructors are half-assed? Yup.

Am I rethinking going to IDC when I make $35/hour at my day job? Nope! I love diving and I love talking about diving with people and I love working with students, and I loved every minute of my DM internship-even setting that damned float…

Now, the Shop makes $79 on rentals, but they had to buy the rental gear inteh 1st place, eventually, it'st going to pay for itself and then make money for the shop, but $79 isn't a whole lot. They also make money on the personal gear, but there is the overhead (space, original purchase, salesman wages, etc.) and the PADI material. So really PADI makes, from what I can see IF EVERYTHING has 100% markup, is Material ($40) and PIC ($10). $50 a head. Still not great.

Since i own a shop your numbers look good. The entire rediculas thing isn't even worth what I pay in insurance or the liability risk.

There are some bigger shops that do make money of course but many are in this business because they love diving.

But the kind of diving that makes money doesn't interest me at all. That is the one key piece of info I didn't have at the beginning.