Limits: Comfort vs. Training vs. Certification

Here is one for that has been bothering me for a while.

I define limits as:
-comfort
Increased through going diving.
-training
Increased through taking classes.
-certification
Increased through completing a classes.

How do you know when you are doing too much?

My guess is that in an ideal situation.
A diver takes a class (training), completes the class (certification)
and then goes diving (comfort).
At some point after enough diving that comfort limit will start to
approach the training and certification limits. Hopefully the
individual realizes that it is time to increase their other limits and
then start the cycle again. (If they want to dive beyond those training
and certification limits.)

1-My personal situation was a bit different:
Being very comfortable led me to dive beyond my limits of training and
certification.(At the time having no overhead training) Luckily it was
at dive sites that are supposed to be Open water safe..like Devils Den,
Crystal River, Paradise Springs, Blue Grotto.
Actually the people I was diving with and the dive site offered a video
and hazards of the environment lecture. There was an instructor in the
group but no overhead instructors. At the time I took this in as
Training....(but no certification was given).

Question 1: Does this count as training?

(Maybe not very good or backed by an agency but certainly better than
going in without knowing anything,right?)

After some more dives, I decided to do a formal class that would issue a
certification (Cavern). Why? Because there was a couple of dive sites
required it to take lights. I already had comfort from my previous dives
and now extended my training and certification limits.

2-After some more dives, I found myself again...exceeding my training
and certification limits because of my comfort. The reel went from being
a guideline to a leash. At one point there was a Cave Diver that showed
me how to tie into the mainline and go further without having to deal
with the real. He went some things and then came with us to check on
us. He thought we did good.

Question 2: Does this count as training?

(Maybe not very good or backed by an agency but certainly better than
going in without knowing anything, right?)

Luckily, I went back to do another formal class (Intro to Cave). I
extended my limits for training and certification to match my comfort.
My comfort limit was to stay within non-deco tables and nice big clear
tunnels.

3-I met a cave diver that invited me to go on a dive with him. He told
me there would be a jump that we could visual and then another one that
we would put a line in. At any point during the dive he knew a couple
of visual jumps we could make to take us back on the line if we hit turn
pressure. He also gave me a stage bottle and showed me how to do a gas
plan with it.
I told him my training and certification limits but he said that I was a
cave diver and already had all the training I needed. This is just a
different part of the cave. He told me he has done this dive many times
and to just follow him.
I accepted the dive and was very excited to go.
Blind jump...no problem it was very close.
One of the tunnels was low and silty...that pushed my comfort limit.
Signaling to turn the dive and my buddy said ok, just a bit
further...that pushed me beyond my comfort limit
We made another blind jump and swam for a bit...I was not a happy camper
anymore.
to my surprise there was our stage bottles...By the time I got on it I
had 500 psi left in my back mounted single 80 with H-valve.
Once I was breathing the stage and back in the big tunnel...I went back
to being comfortable.
We got out of the dive and I thought "Wow, what a rush to do that dive
but it was a little bit too much for me."
I never went diving with that Cave diver again and a couple of months
later (when I knew better) let him have a piece of my mind for taking me
on that dive.

Question 3: Does this count as training?

(Maybe not very good or backed by an agency but certainly better than
going in without knowing anything,right?)

I pretty much stuck with diving within the limits of my comfort (big
tunnels, within no deco times), my training, my certification (Intro to
cave) . I even went a step back to reinforce it with a GUE Cave 1
class. That really increased my comfort level in dealing with any kind
of emergency. It went to the point that I wanted to continue practicing
skills all the time.

It was at this point that I finally knew better than to go beyond any of
my limits. (Comfort, Training, Certification)
I think the additional time spent practicing emergencies really hit home
on just how ugly a dive could get.

I then took an apprentice class to extend my training and certification
limits. I knew that soon I would have to complete the full cave portion
before a year but was in no rush. I did a lot of diving at this level
and then....

4-I was invited to do a dive at telford by a Cave diver/Cavern
Instructor and his buddy. After that dive he invited me to dive at Cow
Springs with him. That was my first time going to the upstream section.
He told me all about the restrictions and how to get past them, what to
do incase of getting stuck, how to stay off the walls and use the rope.
We did the dive and after getting past the restrictions to get in...that
was all I could think about...How the hell are we going to get out? The
tunnel was big and clear and I regained my comfort and forgot about it.
Next thing you know there is a rope...what fun! Then I see my buddy go
fins first into a hole. I do the same but my comfort level is now
blitzed. If figure a little bit more no problem. We are now in 100'
and the tunnel is nice and clear. I start to think about all the little
holes I am expected to get out of and call the dive(before time or gas
limits). We get out with no problems and I told my buddy I reached my
comfort limit and wanted to end the dive. He said for some one not
comfortable I sure went very far.

Question 4: Does this count as training?

(Maybe not very good or backed by an agency but certainly better than
going in without knowing anything, right?)

I started to do some longer dives and was not comfortable with the deco
training I had done during apprentice. I wanted to do some longer dives
involving stages and decided to do my GUE Cave 2 class.

Everything is all finally on the same level. Comfort, Training and
Certification. I am sliding in an out of Cow springs like butter. Diving
in small silty passages in the back of Telford, doing longer dives at
Little River making it to the last room involving stage bottles and
longer deco schedules. Everything's cool, right?

5-Along comes a cave diver with 2 scooters. I have never used a scooter
in open water and he is offering to take me cave diving with him. I
spend 30 mins in open water doing circles and feel very comfortable with
moving, stopping and turning. I tell him I am ready to go cave diving
now. On our predive he tells me about scooter run times, what to do if
it fails, how to use a tow rope, how to set the speeds and that he will
keep mine on a low speed and his on high incase he needs to come after
me. I refuse to go in a cave without running a line...so he lets me
fumble with the scooter and reel. Once inside, WOW what a great
dive...until my buddies scooter dies. I pull out the tow rope and bring
him all the way back out just like we planned.

I decided to go on another dive with him and this time the dive went
smooth from start to finish.


Question 5: Does this count as training?

(Maybe not very good or backed by an agency but certainly better than
going in without knowing anything, right?)

I was very comfortable on those 2 dives but didn't like the lack of
control and figured there had to be more to scooters than use 1/6 of gas
and knowing how to use a tow rope. I decided to not scooter in caves
again unless I had a couple of 100 dives with them in open water
learning all about them.

6-A couple of months later here comes another buddy with 2 brand new
scooters and he just recently completed a scooter class.
He invited me for a dive and I agreed to go if he gave me some time in
open water to get used to it. This scooter was perfectly weighted and
immediately felt much better than my previous experience. I let my
buddy who recently completed the class plan the dive and show me some
stuff that he learned from rigging to emergency procedures.

Off we went and had 2 great dives. My only complaint was how heavy the
things were.

Question 6: Does this count as training?

(Maybe not very good or backed by an agency but certainly better than
going in without knowing anything, right?)

That has been my personal experience. Since then, I have not been
diving with a scooter and stick to diving within my comfort, training
and certification limits.

What do you think?

you sure do a lot of "trust me" dives. I have done 2 and will do no more. Both could have cost me my life, and while I do not even try to pass them off as "training", they are a part of my experience and have taught me NEVER TO BLINDLY TRUST ANOTHER DIVER... no matter how good their intentions might seem to be.

Always dive within ALL of your limits. Don't trust your feelings... narcosis starts early and is not forgiving of fools.

There is nothing in a cave worth dying for.

I say this as someone who is NOT even cavern trained. But I know that there are more INSTRUCTOR fatlities in caves than any other, and I bet they felt real comfortable until it was too late. Train as if your life depends on it... it does! Train first, then dive withing your limits.

Geez, I thought I was bad about pushing limits! Be careful william.

Tom

Aren't you an instructor?

Sounds like the "take it slow" approach is another way to do thing above your level of training.

Too many trust me dives. Those are unacceptable, especially for a wanna be GUE instructor.

Cheers and safer diving,
Sherpa


Staging with only an Al 80 for back gas?

I hope you were joking!

Willanz appears to have been to the same certifying agency as myself...

The best bit of advice I was ever given was "Mind how you go..."

Duncan

My dives followinf cave and tech training started pretty small. It's one thing to go off with an instructor and yet another on your own. The cards I own have little effect on comfort. In a new cave or on a new wreck I start small. I can always go further next time. If I go too far though, there may not be a next time. I have been diving Roubidoux all summer. The cave is deep deco long and you don't get far. We have not yet strapped on a stage. Distance isn't my goal. BTW, we have gone further each time but on the same amount of gas or less. Efficiency has improved. At this stage we are no cometition for the guys who are pushing the cave. After a couple more perfect dives on back gas I will use a stage.

What does my training and certifications qualify me to do when I'm someplace I have never been?

BTW, I did a cave dive a few weeks ago. We penetrated 4 or 5 hundred feet with a max depth of nine feet. This seemingly little dive required all the skill and confidence that I have. I saw the end of the line and turned without laying any new deciding it was enough for that day.

Like Duncan said "Mind how you go"

Divesherpa once bubbled...
Aren't you an instructor?
[...]
Too many trust me dives. Those are unacceptable, especially for a wanna be GUE instructor.

Click to expand...

After taking a class from him, I can state to a certainty that the post is somewhat loaded, and written with his feelings at the time rather than his current feelings. I'm sure he has his own answers for his own questions; Have you ever used mistakes in the past to start a discussion to get feedback on how they have encouraged change in you?

Now at the risk of taking this thread off in a direction that William didn't intend...

William; You hit on specific points that make the answers fairly clear, however the general issue is steered away from by the obvious judgement errors made.

On the original subject: Comfort vs. Training vs. Certification. Taking Certification out of it, obviously the determining factor should be the lesser of your comfort and your training levels. However where does certification fall into the equation? As far as I'm concerned, certification is just a direct result of liability releases. For example, how are you to prove to a landowner that you are trained to dive on their land? If they don't require proof, then they run a higher risk of being liable if you get injured.

Certification is just a method to prove that you have the training. However, we all know that certification doesn't necessarily imply training; and personally I feel training isn't just course training, but rather the combination of certification and experience.

Now can you receive training without certification? Of course. Lets say we had the exact same weekend we did, but at the end I chose to not give you an extra $25 for a card... Is the training any less than if I bought the certification card at the end?

So to go back to your stories; Specifics aside, going through the individual scenarios, and knowing what you know now; do you feel it was training?

A friend of mine started a discussion last week. He was stating that one of the major problems with the dive industry is the crutch that certification cards represent. Not all cert cards are created equal. There are bad instructors; there are inexperienced instructors. Is the training from a certified instructor better than an experienced diver? It all depends on the experienced divers ability to teach at the certified instructors experience... Whenever you sign up with an instructor; you are basically trusting a stranger that they know what they are doing. The premise of his discussion was philosophical; proposing the concept of a mentor system, where you grow your experience with the experience of a mentor... as your experience and comfort progresses, your mentor progresses your training.

Personally, I found it to be an interesting concept...

willanz once bubbled...


What do you think?

Click to expand...

Listen to the voices. The little white crayfish will tell you what is right. If they don't talk to you, I know where there's a chimp and a bird....LOL

Remember, there's nothing in there but rocks and dirt.

Mentor. Now there is a concept for you. When divers travel for training and take training from instructors they don't know and maybe will never see again there is no mentor.

I sort of had a mentor early in my diving. Once I moved on to other stuff that was that. I do dive with one of my former tech instructors and my former cave instructor but I did a bunch of post cert dives without him before we ever matched schedules. The same is true for my trimix instructor.

I think mentoring used to be much more common than it is today and I expect it to become even less common.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I think mentoring used to be much more common than it is today and I expect it to become even less common.

Click to expand...

That was exactly the point being made in the conversation... well, with the added comment of "... and that's a bad thing".