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Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 10:19 AM
There have been a couple of threads on the CESA lately, with several folks declaring it an unnecessary skill, because with "proper" diving skills you'd never need it.

Here are just two of many examples (I ain't pickin' on you two; y'all just said it clearer and in fewer words than the others :) )

CESAs are a last ditch resort resulting from a deficiency in skill and if divers were trained better to use team work, planning, disciplined monitoring of gas, and gas redundancy, would become unnecessary.

Gas Planning, Buddy Skills and S-drills can really eliminate the need to ever do a CESA
It seems many folks feel the only reason anyone would want to do a CESA is in an out-of-gas situation, and since any good diver will never, ever be in that situation then the CESA is not a necessary skill.
I'd like to revisit that.
What is a "Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent" and what are some of the reasons we might want to do one? The CESA is simply the means to make an emergency ascent to the surface. Are there reasons we might want to do that other than being low on, or out of gas? I say "Absolutely!"
Because there are reasons other than "gas planning and buddy skills" that might lead to the CESA decision, the ability to do a safe CESA in the face of great stress, pain or distress or injury is an essential skill for all Scuba Divers.
What are some of those reasons?
1. CVA. A cardio-vascular accident - a survivable heart attack, stroke, etc often leaves little time for decision-making and action before complete disability to do anything useful, like informing a buddy you're in distress. An immediate CESA could give you a chance to avoid certain drowning, and to get to help on the boat in time to save your life. Every second counts.
2. Bleeding. A severe cut or bite can start the blood-loss clock; your ability to do anything may be short lived and a CESA while you can do something can once again get you to a more survivable environment.
3. Severe pain. Whether it be some internal source (sudden burst appendix or ovarian cyst or kidney stone etc) or from injury (poisonous spine, sea wasp etc), once again, pain of this magnitude may severely limit your time of useful consciousness; time to topside help is of the essence and a CESA may be your best choice.
4. Impending panic. It is far, far better to do a CESA while still in control than to allow panic to take over and do a UPA ("Uncontrolled Panicked Ascent"). Indeed, just knowing you have the option and are competent at the CESA can go a long way in keeping under controll in the first place.
---
The CESA should remain in the syllabus at the entry level; the ability to conduct a safe, rapid emergency ascent without danger of an overexpansion injury should be ingrained to the point of "automatic" in every Scuba Diver, even those who will never, ever run out of air. IOW, I think the CESA is as important in a Scuba Diver's "tool kit" as a wrench is to a mechanic.
Rick

Diver Dennis
March 29th, 2007, 10:23 AM
Thanks for the well thought out post Rick.

Karibelle
March 29th, 2007, 10:24 AM
In those instances, assuming you still have air, you think the CESA is a better choice than a normal ascent? What am I missing?

LetterBoy
March 29th, 2007, 10:24 AM
So I wonder what they do in DIR if you have one of the above incidents. . .

drbill
March 29th, 2007, 10:27 AM
Good points, Rick.

There are only three times over 45 years that I've had to do a CESA.

The first one was back in the 60's when we didn't have SPG's, just J-valves. I had pulled a tank off the "filled" rack and descended to 90 feet only to find it was an empty. Somehow the J-valve had been pulled in the descent. My buddy experienced the same problem. The CESA was uneventful.

The second doesn't really count. I was on my ascent (along a slope) at the end of a dive and saw something I just HAD to film. I kept shooting until my tank ran dry, and ascended but only from a depth of 15 ft.

The third illustrates another valid reason for knowing the skill that has nothing to do with gas management. I had descended to 70 ft (without my pony... bad on me) and suddenly air flow from my tank ceased shortly after I exhaled my last breath. I did an 80 sec CESA. We discovered that the tank valve on a full tank had become clogged, stopping air flow.

Diver Dennis
March 29th, 2007, 10:28 AM
In those instances, assuming you still have air, you think the CESA is a better choice than a normal ascent? What am I missing?




If I was rapidly losing consciousness, I would not be doing a normal ascent. That could be happening in any of those examples.

DeepBound
March 29th, 2007, 10:29 AM
It's so refreshing to read a logical thought-out post about CESA.
Given that this is a useful skill, how can it be practiced safely?


The CESA should remain in the syllabus at the entry level; the ability to conduct a safe, rapid emergency ascent without danger of an overexpansion injury should be ingrained to the point of "automatic" in every Scuba Diver, even those who will never, ever run out of air.
Rick

fppf
March 29th, 2007, 10:38 AM
Good post Rick.
CESA is also another way to reinforce to a new diver NEVER to hold your breath.

There are many reasons someone would need to make an accent. There are also equipment failer modes that would cause an uncontroled accent.

In any event, if you hold your breath, you may as well just stay down there.

Karibelle
March 29th, 2007, 10:48 AM
If I was rapidly losing consciousness, I would not be doing a normal ascent. That could be happening in any of those examples.

Would you be ascending more quickly than a "safe ascent rate"? if you are, then you're not doing a CESA either.

Steve50
March 29th, 2007, 10:53 AM
In those instances, assuming you still have air, you think the CESA is a better choice than a normal ascent? What am I missing?

I agree - you may choose to make a more rapid than normal ascent - but why not breathe normally.

Guba
March 29th, 2007, 10:55 AM
Nice job, Rick, of outlining other poetential causes for a CESA.

I'll add one, though the nay-sayers will say, "well, that's your fault, so it's just incompetence"--Complacency.
The one and only time I considered a CESA was when a fouled tank plugged my first stage. My partner was in plain sight and only about a dozen feet away, but he was intently swimming away (I had been following him closely until I spotted that turtle I wanted to shoot), and my partner was up-current. Yup, one crowd will say my negligence had bred the problem and it was all my fault, but notice just how easy it was to get into this jam. A five second pause was all it took to put me in a pickle on a very easy dive in clear conditions (Cozumel) with virtually no noticeable threats.
I managed to get out of it without a CESA by "repartnering" with a DM that was just below me. However, had I needed to make one, it was nice to know that I had the knowlege and skills to do so.

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 10:58 AM
So I wonder what they do in DIR if you have one of the above incidents. . .

Why not ask an instructor. That's what I do.

LetterBoy
March 29th, 2007, 10:59 AM
now it makes sense. . . so where is an instructor to ask?

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 11:01 AM
Doing three things at once...

Blackwood
March 29th, 2007, 11:07 AM
NEVER to hold your breath

Excepting when you are supposed to.

-MB

Steve R
March 29th, 2007, 11:11 AM
There are only three times over 45 years that I've had to do a CESA.

The first one was back in the 60's when we didn't have SPG's, just J-valves. I had pulled a tank off the "filled" rack and descended to 90 feet only to find it was an empty. Somehow the J-valve had been pulled in the descent. My buddy experienced the same problem. The CESA was uneventful.
Good thing we now have pressure gauges...not a reason.



The second doesn't really count. I was on my ascent (along a slope) at the end of a dive and saw something I just HAD to film. I kept shooting until my tank ran dry, and ascended but only from a depth of 15 ft.
You're right here, purposely putting yourself behind the 8-ball of gas management requires learning and adhering to gas managment principles, not learning cesa. Again not a valid reason for cesa.



The third illustrates another valid reason for knowing the skill that has nothing to do with gas management. I had descended to 70 ft (without my pony... bad on me) and suddenly air flow from my tank ceased shortly after I exhaled my last breath. I did an 80 sec CESA. We discovered that the tank valve on a full tank had become clogged, stopping air flow.
No, it illustrates the reason why proper team diving is essential for successful dives when little things go wrong from time to time, instead of solo diving. Doing an 80ft cesa would probably work well a huge majority of the time if that's your bag, but speaking only for myself in our team environment, I'll stick with a controlled ascent on the long hose, which is clearly a safer method.

45 years of evidently successful solo diving to upwards of 200ft certainly is impressive, and maybe shows just how often gear doesn't break down or cause issues, but it's not the type of diving I'd be teaching or touting as safe. Why you haven't been laughed off of scooby-board only shows the level of understanding most people have with respect to responsible diving around here.

No offense Rick, but maybe sitting there at 1 ATA typing your post sounds like you'd be able to work through most of those problems via a successful cesa may sound logical, but in reality is pretty much laughable bud.

I'm having a 'heart attack'..maybe I'll do a cesa,........I'm going to be panicking in 10 seconds, maybe I'll do a cesa.....c'mon...what a joke.

But hey, let's see how many times we can flog the same pony....have fun kids.

:deadhorse:

I swear, if some of you would spend as much time perfecting proper individual and team skills as you do on BS cesa arguments, you'd be way further ahead.

LetterBoy
March 29th, 2007, 11:13 AM
So you are saying that someone has a major incident at depth you will continue the dive? or you will surface?

DeepBound
March 29th, 2007, 11:20 AM
I'm having a 'heart attack'..maybe I'll do a cesa,........I'm going to be panicking in 10 seconds, maybe I'll do a cesa.....c'mon...what a joke.

What a joke? Is that supposed to be a rebuttal, or an argument of some form? If you disagree, I for one would like to hear a reason. If you don't have one, insulting the OP is childish and impolite.

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 11:21 AM
Surfacing, and CESA are not necessarily the same thing.

To wit, the recently aired video of the Dave Shaw episode. Dave's buddy, watched his friend die in front of his face. He had a medical problem himself and a gear failure. Did he CESA? No. He had several hours of DECO ahead of him. He did what he had to do, and got out of the water as quickly as possible.

If a shark bites your leg off, you're going to leave the water pretty quickly. If you have a cramp, you might leave the water, or you might stretch it out. Either option is viable. Heart attack, I don't know. Never had one. Do you stop breathing?

There is no dead pony to beat here. All the answers are the same. Those who view CESA as viable, always will. Those who don't, never will. And never shall the two meet! :)

fisherdvm
March 29th, 2007, 11:26 AM
I've been "banned" from technical diving because I felt that there is still a place for CESA... Oh, well, not going to miss it.

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 11:32 AM
So you are saying that someone has a major incident at depth you will continue the dive? or you will surface?Nah, what he's saying is that he's never had debilitating pain, and never come close to bleeding to death. Those of us who have, understand both circumstances. If he lives long enough he will understand too.
In the meantime, he'll continue to be "young and immortal" as we all were, once upon a time, and continue to feel that those of us who do contemplate those things are wasting our time on "jokes."
Rick :)

fisherdvm
March 29th, 2007, 11:38 AM
I think the term ESA, swim ESA, and CESA are misunderstood, and missused.

The focus should be on preventing the reflexive action of the larynx - specifically - laryngeal spasm.

As people have mentioned before - chemical irritation, vomitus, or even swallowing of water can trigger this reflex.

The skill which I think many of us think of is the "humming", "aaaaaaa'ing", or whistling that forces the epiglottis to remain open, or blocking larygospasm.

Even a technical diver, if his rebreather canister break, can get toxic irritating gas in his larynx.... and if there is any controlled, or uncontrolled ascent - laryngospasm can cause lung barotrauma.

From this perspective, it is at least good to talk about this reflex, and how to overcome it.

Charlie99
March 29th, 2007, 11:40 AM
Those who view CESA as viable, always will. Those who don't, never will. And never shall the two meet! :)And then there are those that recognize there are situations where a CESA is viable and will work, and there are situations where CESA is not viable and will kill you.


There are probably many divers out there that don't really have a feel for situations for which a CESA is a acceptable response.
Having a couple of minutes of deco obligation on a Suunto computer doesn't mean that a rapid ascent to the surface is going to kill you. If it did, then we would have had a lot more fatalities when people were using the USN tables with its longer NDLs and 60fpm direct ascent to the surface.

Charlie Allen

diver 85
March 29th, 2007, 11:54 AM
Ran across this thread.....(maybe viewpoints on CESA have changed in 4 or so years, DIR??? maybe)......Guys we're making a mountain out of a mole hill...It's a skill, one I keep in my little black bag of tricks, one that might save my life one day(it helped my wife long a go from about 40'...lol, she decided to do a ESA rather than buddy breath with me- maybe she knew my skill levels....lol)....http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=32607..

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 11:58 AM
... Heart attack, I don't know. Never had one. Do you stop breathing? ... The most common symptom of a heart attack is sudden death. If you get lucky enough to not have that one, then your clock is ticking. You have little time to mess around, and you'll be in extreme severe pain. You need help. You need to be on the surface, on the boat.
My point is simply this: running out of gas is not the only circumstance that puts you in a situation where your time of useful consciousness is very limited. There are other circumstances that can do that, and an ability to make a controlled, emergency ascent without killing yourself - without reverting to the natural tendency to hold your breath underwater - must be so ingrained that it is automatic and overcomes instinct.
'Course you could look at it like "oh, well, if any of those things happen to me I'm dead anyway, so why bother..." To some extent those of us who go into caves or substantial deco obligations - where a CESA isn't an option - have to accept that, but during any dive (or part of the dive) when a CESA is a viable option, it needs to be there.
Me, I'll keep the CESA in my bag of tricks, and take the time to equip my students with it as well.
Rick

Karibelle
March 29th, 2007, 12:05 PM
my question remains - about ascent rate. "CESA" is to be conducted at a "normal ascent rate" - if it's faster than that, I would call it a buoyant emergency ascent, or something other than a CESA... if you're ascending at a normal rate, and you have air, why not breathe while ascending? If you're ascending more quickly, then why call it a CESA? Maybe it's just a difference in terminology among agencies?

kari

fisherdvm
March 29th, 2007, 12:11 PM
I imagine, if you are only 15 ft from the surface, you'd want to stay as close to 60 ft per minute, so you are still obeying your NDL criterias.

If you are 30 ft from the surface, my guess is, more most recreational divers, we are going to exceed 60 ft/min and might get the bends if we are at the yellow zone or near our NDL.

If you are 60 ft from the surface, I am definitely going to dump my weight, and shoot to the surface faster.... I know that there are many folks here who can do without a breath for 2 or 3 minutes.... But not me. I will take a chance of DCS, but rather have that than larygospasm and a lung blow out.

Second reason why you would want to dump weight, is swimming ESA will burn calories, producing carbon dioxide, and you would not want to induce a breathing reflex too early before you reach the surface. Remaining relatively motionless with a buoyant ESA would allow you to go longer without a breath... and less likely to gasp water, and suffer a larygospasm.

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 12:14 PM
My point is simply this: running out of gas is not the only circumstance that puts you in a situation where your time of useful consciousness is very limited.

I think this is really the crux of the matter. Getting to the surface because of poor planning, is obviously not a good thing. Getting out of the water quickly because of a medical emergency, is something different entirely.

However, I have not yet heard anyone in this argument (besides you) to date, mention ANY other reason for CESA than running out of gas. I will continue to assert that doing a CESA because of poor gas planning is a recipe for disaster. Doing a rapid ascent (call it ESA, CESA, or whatever) may in fact be prudent to save your life at some point. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

in_cavediver
March 29th, 2007, 12:17 PM
I am gonna pick on all of you because people keep confusing terms and meaning. OK, for the definitions:

1) CESA - Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent - as taught in PADI. This is where you exhale continuosly to the surface maintaing neutral buoyancy. You do not inhale.

2) ESA - Emergency Swimming Ascent - Essentially the same as a CESA but you have air to breathe - so you breathe it. This could be your air or an air share

3) Bouyant Ascent - this is basically the I must get to the surface and I may not be able to do it myself mentality. This is only marginally controlled and may or may not be done with air or while breathing. Very much the last ditch effort

Everything Rick posted above is for ESA or Buoyant ascents simply because you have gas.

DBailey
March 29th, 2007, 12:19 PM
You missed one word...

I am gonna pick on all of you because people keep confusing terms and meaning. OK, for the definitions:

1) CESA - Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent - as taught in PADI.

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 12:21 PM
... if you're ascending at a normal rate, and you have air, why not breathe while ascending ... In all of the circumstances other than "out of gas" (and my basic premise for this thread is that gas supply is not an issue) you should absolutely inhale whenever you need to during the emergency ascent. If you're ascending so fast that air needs to come out of your lungs while you're "inhaling" it will do just that. Breathe during the ascent. The only reason we teach "exhale all the way" is that if you have no gas, in order to be "always breathing," that is exhaling. Instructors should make sure this point is driven home - exhaling is breathing, and so is inhaling.
Rick

in_cavediver
March 29th, 2007, 12:21 PM
You missed one word...

Thanks - PC was acting up as I was typing - kept posting updates before I was done.

Karibelle
March 29th, 2007, 12:25 PM
In all of the circumstances other than "out of gas" (and my basic premise for this thread is that gas supply is not an issue) you should absolutely inhale whenever you need to during the emergency ascent. If you're ascending so fast that air needs to come out of your lungs while you're "inhaling" it will do just that. Breathe during the ascent. The only reason we teach "exhale all the way" is that if you have no gas, in order to be "always breathing," that is exhaling. Instructors should make sure this point is driven home - exhaling is breathing, and so is inhaling.
Rick

thanks - then we're just having a terminology issue. In my world, a "CESA" is conducted by breathing out, not in, because you have no gas left. Therefore, if gas supply is not an issue, one would not conduct a CESA, but would conduct some other sort of ascent, perhaps "ESA" as indicated by a previous poster.

kari

DeepBound
March 29th, 2007, 12:28 PM
My point is simply this: running out of gas is not the only circumstance that puts you in a situation where your time of useful consciousness is very limited. There are other circumstances that can do that, and an ability to make a controlled, emergency ascent without killing yourself - without reverting to the natural tendency to hold your breath underwater - must be so ingrained that it is automatic and overcomes instinct.

Wouldn't you continue breathing on the way up in that scenario? if so, is it really a CESA? I thought CESA is something you do without breathing?

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 12:33 PM
I am gonna pick on all of you because people keep confusing terms and meaning. OK, for the definitions:

1) CESA - Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent - as taught in PADI. This is where you exhale continuosly to the surface maintaing neutral buoyancy. You do not inhale.

2) ESA - Emergency Swimming Ascent - Essentially the same as a CESA but you have air to breathe - so you breathe it. This could be your air or an air share

3) Bouyant Ascent - this is basically the I must get to the surface and I may not be able to do it myself mentality. This is only marginally controlled and may or may not be done with air or while breathing. Very much the last ditch effort

Everything Rick posted above is for ESA or Buoyant ascents simply because you have gas.
Wouldn't you continue breathing on the way up in that scenario? if so, is it really a CESA? I thought CESA is something you do without breathing? I guess we need to define terms here... when I say "CESA" my emphasis is on "Controlled" and not restricted to "normal" or "out of gas." If I'm reading you right then what I'm calling a "CESA" is called an "ESA" by PADI if you have gas. If that's the case then I'm talking about "ESAs" here, or even "modified ESAs" because I'll accept an ascent rate that's greater than 60FPM for myself. (This is not to advise any of you to do that - if you do you'll die immediately!)
I was raised in the 60/60/60 school... "emergency" connotes something outside that :)
The shift to "buoyant" is made when you make the "I'm not going to make it" decision and you decide your only option is an uncontrolled ascent.
Rick

DeepBound
March 29th, 2007, 12:43 PM
It's all fine and dandy to say that if you do everything perfectly and have perfect buddy skillz, you'll never need to do a CESA.

But how about having it in your arsenal just in case one day you don't quite reach perfection. It happens. I'm not perfect yet, so I like backup plans.

I've only used it once, and only from 17ft deep, and yes it was because I screwed up, but I'm glad it was an option.

LetterBoy
March 29th, 2007, 12:46 PM
I took the air bags outof my car because I will never get into a car accident because I am a good driver. . .

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 12:48 PM
Wouldn't you continue breathing on the way up in that scenario? if so, is it really a CESA? I thought CESA is something you do without breathing? OOooo.... target in sight... two's in hot...
Now it's my turn to parse words :D
Never hold your breath! Always breathe! If you have no gas, what does "always breathe" mean? Gotta exhale, right?
All too often we confuse "without breathing" and "without inhaling."
(sorry... couldn't resist :) )
Rick

in_cavediver
March 29th, 2007, 12:49 PM
I guess we need to define terms here... when I say "CESA" my emphasis is on "Controlled" and not restricted to "normal" or "out of gas." If I'm reading you right then what I'm calling a "CESA" is called an "ESA" by PADI if you have gas. If that's the case then I'm talking about "ESAs" here, or even "modified ESAs" because I'll accept an ascent rate that's greater than 60FPM for myself. (This is not to advise any of you to do that - if you do you'll die immediately!)
I was raised in the 60/60/60 school... "emergency" connotates something outside that :)
The shift to "buoyant" is made when you make the "I'm not going to make it" decision and you decide your only option is an uncontrolled ascent.
Rick

Yep. I bet most of the people argueing over the CESA stuff really agree as well.

My opinion - teach ESA, CESA and Buddy Breathing. Mention buoyant ascents but don't actually do one. (on the fence about whether to do CESA's or not)

Again, these are all tools an OW diver should have and know. They also need to know the ratings of how best choose. Clearly the buoyant ascent is the bottom rung last ditch survival option. Buddy breathing falls in bottom options as well. CESA's may be better than buddy breathing - may not. Ultimately though, an ESA with buddy's air or pony etc is much better than CESA, Buddy Breathing or Buoyant ascent.

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 12:52 PM
I took the air bags outof my car because I will never get into a car accident because I am a good driver. . .


Did you practice with those airbags? Did you drive with your seatbelt off because you had those airbags?

Again, running out of air is preventable in nearly all circumstances. I believe that is all the "don't do CESA" camp is putting forth.

limeyx
March 29th, 2007, 12:52 PM
There have been a couple of threads on the CESA lately, with several folks declaring it an unnecessary skill, because with "proper" diving skills you'd never need it.

Here are just two of many examples (I ain't pickin' on you two; y'all just said it clearer and in fewer words than the others :) )
Rick

IMO none of those cases require a CESA.

CESA is when you have NO GAS. The only real reason(s) to have no gas in single-tank recreational diving is

1) you and your entire team all run out of gas (or really low) at the same time (gas planning, violating the plan)
2) you run out of gas and your buddy is nowhere to be found
3) you both have a catastrophic tank failure at the same time that drains both your tanks.
4) you have some kind of "event" tox/pass out/medical emergency/panic that requires an immediate ascent. here, you still can do a 30 fpm ascent because your buddy will be there to help you, and he has gas, right? and he can have a reg ready for if you become able to take a reg.

I dont see a need to do a CESA for basically exactly the reasons lamont suggests.

of course, if 99% of your diving is with instabuddies who dont follow good procedures then

1) dont dive with them
2) get redundancy (doubles)

limeyx
March 29th, 2007, 12:54 PM
I've been "banned" from technical diving because I felt that there is still a place for CESA... Oh, well, not going to miss it.

there is no room for a CESA in tech diving (or should there be in rec diving)

In tech diving you can solve 99% of problems underwater. The other 1% you may have to surface early and blow off deco, but definitely not do a CESA unless you have a suicidal dive plan.

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 12:57 PM
Again, running out of air is preventable in nearly all circumstances. I believe that is all the "don't do CESA" camp is putting forth. Sorta throwing out the baby with the bathwater, eh?
By all means never run out of gas. Never.
There are other reasons you may need to do a CESA.
Rick

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 12:59 PM
there is no room for a CESA in tech diving (or should there be in rec diving) I disagree. See post 1.
Rick

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 01:04 PM
CESA is when you have NO GAS. Not in this thread. I defined it in post #1. If you want to argue the definition then that's another issue entirely.
This thread is about Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascents with gas.

Rick

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 01:16 PM
Sorta throwing out the baby with the bathwater, eh?
By all means never run out of gas. Never.
There are other reasons you may need to do a CESA.
Rick

No, By your definition of CESA, which includes making a rapid ascent WITH GAS, then I agree with your statements.

There are emergencies underwater. Running out of gas shouldn't be one of them.

limeyx
March 29th, 2007, 01:41 PM
I disagree. See post 1.
Rick

I just saw your post clarifying what you meant by CESA -- in that you still have gas.

And in that case, I agree -- there is a place in rec and tec diving to ascend more rapidly than you had planned in certain emergency cases.

However, this still needs to be within "safe" parameters (i.e. 30fpm for rec dives, and for tec dives it will depend on circumstances more). Also, this should be minimized to the greatest extent possible (training, planning, diving with buddies you trust) and should be an extremely rare event.

of course, there is a possibility that the worst will happen (the entire team goes out of gas, or has a heart attack at the same time), then you are on "OMG" deco (Oh my god deco) and you do what you have to do to survive.

However, this does not fit the definition of CESA that I learned or practiced during PADI Open water classes.

In fact, this type of ascent was not taught at all specifically since it's just a regular ascent but minus the "safety stop" (although if someone looks like they are really dying, and there's a chance to save them, then I can see ascending faster than 30fpm in some cases)

eric229
March 29th, 2007, 02:03 PM
I see two different issues in this thread. One is you should never have to do a CESA and the other is that you should not teach CESA to new divers.

I can still remember my PADI open water course and I can tell you that my instructor tought us that we should plan on having that last 500 PSI in our tank as a reserve and that we should always know how much air is left in our tank. They also tought us to use the buddy system and that in case of an OOA emergency our buddy is our redundand air source. CESA was only presented as a last ditch attempt to save your life. So even PADI OW agrees that you should never have to do a CESA and that, if you do, it is because you are having a life threating accident that shouldn't have happened if you followed your training.

Teaching CESA, even though you should never use it, is important because it also teaches the students to always keep their airway open by making a buzzing sound. This is counterintuitive to non divers and is an important part of their diving education. If they panic underwater, their first reaction is going to be to hold their breath and bolt for the surface, which is going to give them a life threating injury. Teaching CESA and doing a practice CESA demonstrates to new divers that they don't have to hold their breath to make it to the surface. I can still remember doing my CESA from 30' as part of my OW checkout dive. I thought it was amazing that, not only could I make it to the surface doing a slow and controled ascent, but I could do it comfortably.

Even a PADI OW diver following thier training should never have to CESA. New divers benifit form learning about CESA and practing a CESA, even if it is just to demonstrate that they can ascend while breathing out. It gives them the confidence that they can make it to the surface from rec depths that will help hold off panic and a possible lifethreating breathhold ascent should they ever have an accident.

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 02:21 PM
I just saw your post clarifying what you meant by CESA -- in that you still have gas.

And in that case, I agree -- there is a place in rec and tec diving to ascend more rapidly than you had planned in certain emergency cases.

However, this still needs to be within "safe" parameters (i.e. 30fpm for rec dives, and for tec dives it will depend on circumstances more). Also, this should be minimized to the greatest extent possible (training, planning, diving with buddies you trust) and should be an extremely rare event.

of course, there is a possibility that the worst will happen (the entire team goes out of gas, or has a heart attack at the same time), then you are on "OMG" deco (Oh my god deco) and you do what you have to do to survive.

However, this does not fit the definition of CESA that I learned or practiced during PADI Open water classes.

In fact, this type of ascent was not taught at all specifically since it's just a regular ascent but minus the "safety stop" (although if someone looks like they are really dying, and there's a chance to save them, then I can see ascending faster than 30fpm in some cases)
You're on a site with the crewed boat anchored above.
You are at 100'
You've been there for 20 minutes.
You have plenty of gas.
Your team is nearby.
You have an injury. (this is a single, unforeseeable event - not a "poor planning" event or a "chain of events")
You have 60 seconds of useful consciousness.
What's your plan.
Mine's a CESA, on the surface with 10 seconds to say "help."
Rick

jefffalcone
March 29th, 2007, 02:25 PM
Great post Eric. I think everyone agrees that you should never have to do a CESA. But is this a reason not to teach it? The simple fact is that people do screw up and find themselves in situations that they shouldn't be in. Anyone who has had to do a cesa might be dead if they didn't know how. If instructors stop teaching it, there will be injuries as a result.

LetterBoy
March 29th, 2007, 02:27 PM
Rick, I think what they are trying to point out is, how do you know how much time you have left before you black-out, or become unconscious?

dbulmer
March 29th, 2007, 02:27 PM
The CESA should remain in the syllabus at the entry level; the ability to conduct a safe, rapid emergency ascent without danger of an overexpansion injury should be ingrained to the point of "automatic" in every Scuba Diver, even those who will never, ever run out of air. IOW, I think the CESA is as important in a Scuba Diver's "tool kit" as a wrench is to a mechanic.
Rick

Rick - this is the bit of your first post I think is the most important because it teaches an important principle to the new diver. The same principle can be used in building underwater confidence for the new diver.

For example, in our club every diver at some stage has to take off their gear on the bottom, return to the surface and then go back down and put it on again. Clearly, the student has to be briefed to exhale and gives them the opportunity to learn about a little dive physics. Of course this is no news to you but the lesson does help to build confidence in the new diver and re-inforce an essential principle of diving.

However ... from there on the new diver is instructed to keep close to their buddy and multiple air shares take place (over time I hasten to add). The emphasis moves from learning a principle to good practice. This is where the advice Soggy posted comes in (from your post).

IMHO this first principle is a basic of diving which should be thoroughly understood but the student has to come to realise that keeping an eye out for your buddy and preventing issues from happening is a safer way of diving.

I think most of us trained by PADI at least should remember that even PADI put the CESA down the list of priorities and that there are better alternatives (as intimated by Soggy, LimeyX and PerroneFord in this thread.)

My worry about the CESA is that the newly trained forget that it's down the list.
A few years ago I was diving in Cancun. The dive was pleasant but there was quite a bit of surge and the DM leading made about 5 course corrections - into the current, across it,around it back into it etc. The dive was thumbed and the group started the ascent. I was diving with my dad and we had enough air but some less experienced divers (and I use the term loosely as my diving is poor) were running low on air. We got to about 20 foot and saw one diver signalling OOA.

A different DM handed over his octopus and the OOA diver refused it and headed up to the surface doing a CESA.

For me this was a violation of the training the OOA diver would have received ( I cannot conceive of any other reason) yet a simple air share did not appear to enter that person's head. I know this for a fact because I was the only one to ask him why he did it. Maybe I shouldn't have - he became aggressive and simply said because he was safe not doing it. (The last time I've ever questioned someone's diving BTW).

The samples you cite in your post sound too unrepresentative for me to comment - I can't argue with someone who's been there, done it and has forgotten more about diving than I've ever learned or will learn but I just thought I'd give you a different slant on things. I also disagree with PerroneFord - I think you can be in favour of CESA while at the same time being more in favour with a team approach to diving.

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 02:31 PM
Rick,

I don't know what Limex will say, and I know you didin't ask me, but I believe I'd signal my buddy (3-5 seconds), thumb the dive (2 seconds) and start a rapid ascent with my buddy. This helps in a couple of ways.

1. If I CESA there is no guarantee I'll make it to the surface conscious

2. If I CESA there is no guarantee anyone from the boat will see or hear me

3. If I take a buddy along he can help me stay above water.

4. If I take a buddy, he can signal the boat

5. If I take a buddy, he can make sure I keep a reg in my mouth at all times even if I go unconscious.

6. If I take a buddy, he can give some clues as to my condition during the dive and perhaps assist the boat crew with figuring out what went wrong.


Of course, this course of action takes 10 more seconds than your plan. But honestly, I like it better.

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 02:37 PM
I also disagree with PerroneFord - I think you can be in favour of CESA while at the same time being more in favour with a team approach to diving.

Could you give me something concrete to go on with this? Meaning, if a person is in favor of CESA (which is by definition a solo event), how can that person also be in favor of a team approach?

I'm not attacking you here, just genuinely curious how you view it.

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 03:24 PM
Rick, I think what they are trying to point out is, how do you know how much time you have left before you black-out, or become unconscious? Precisely.
Only after the fact do you know.
So if you suffer a potentially incapacitating injury or feel sudden exteme pain coming on, what do you do? You may not have time to guess wrong. If the surface and help is within a minute or so I'm going for it, in a controlled way that assures no overexpansion injury in addition to whatever else is going on.
My properly trained and disciplined buddy will be right on my tail to help if I don't make it, right?
Rick

dbulmer
March 29th, 2007, 03:31 PM
PerroneFord
Sure.

What I was suggesting is that the CESA is a last ditch measure (not the only one by the defintions we've seen earlier in the thread) to perform when all else has failed. I was putting up a DSMB with my buddy in a quarry at 16 metres. My buddy tried to help me put up the DSMB (at this point very much a team exercise) but the line got caught round my fingers and I let go but then I stupidly grabbed the line again but it got wrapped round my thumb and fingers and this time I couldn't let go (skills deficiency yes but I was practicing that skill deficiency). Anyway I ended up in a fast ascent (not a planned CESA but I turned it into one by blowing out to try and arrest my ascent. Physics took over and it was futile .)

At that point I was practicing a team skill which ended up in me doing the mechanics of CESA. I never plan to dive solo - ever - but in this example I ended up that way. The reason I blew out continuosly was to try and regain buoyancy control but I failed and I ended up slowing my ascent but not to the point to be honest where I was in control.

A direct answer to your question is that the CESA is a building block that you should learn to grow out of. I just think CESA is a foundation skill like the fin pivot (I know you hate fin pivots) - you learn the lesson and then move on to learning about how to keep an eye on your buddy- looking for signs of discomfort, kit issues dive enjoyment etc. How do you do reg to snorkel exchange or long hose to backup without learning to blow bubbles?

Why bother learn to remove your drysuit or BC inflator feed if it plays up? - your buddy should be next to you but well separation can occur even with good buddies. Team diving for me means that you work together as a team helping each other out when necessary and enjoying the dive to its potential but does not rule out the odd blip when you do have to be prepared to sort out your own mess.

This is not a self sufficiency argument that you see some folks arguing about BTW It's more about making sure that basic skills are understood and fully mastered.
If you're worried about solo events - well again they can occur (they shouldn't but that's what practice and skill acquisition are all about) DSMB deployment for example. If someone let's go of the shotline on a wreck for example, (well me !) the other diver had to put a DSMB to tell the skipper that we'd moved off the wreck.

Hope that answers your question and I didn't take your view personally at all.
Now a question for you?

You are in a team of 2 - who puts up the DSMB and you can assume it's an 80 foot dive of 30 minutes on EAN32?. Typically over here it would be one person - if the DSMB is lost, another team member (your buddy) would put up the DSMB - a solo event as by and large the rule in the UK is for a member of a buddy team to put up the DSMB (and that includes divers of all agencies). It would be unusual for your buddy to help you unless entanglement took place ie entangled reg etc.

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 03:39 PM
Thanks Dbulmer. Nice explanation.

To answer your question:

The designated person puts up the SMB. That is decided before the dive. As for the mechanics, if it's dark, the diver shooting the bag puts his light away, and the other diver shines his light. The diver not shooting the bag, holds depth to act as a reference for the diver shooting the bag. The diver not shooting the bag looks above to make sure they path is clear. The diver not shooting the bag can lend assistance in case something goes wrong. VERY much a team excercise.

fisherdvm
March 29th, 2007, 03:47 PM
It seems to me, with alot of respect and admiration, that the folks who say you should not ever, ever be too far from your buddy, or run out of gas, are folks trained by DIR.

I wished my instant buddies have the same mentality. However, a large number of recreational divers don't practice good air management skill. As example of my nephew I dove with a month ago, I drilled in his brain the need to ascend from his dive at about 1000 psi. Fine - while he was with me. He ascended with at least 600 psi on our 2 dives. Nevermind that he shot past the 15 ft safety stop and I had to drag him back down.

On the 5th dive, being over confidant, or what ever (3rd dive of the day - meaning he is pretty close to his NDL), he went up with 100 psi, and tried to skip the 15 ft safety stop..... I had a long talk with him the day before about how he should give up diving, or practice his skills with a mentor. He didn't like to hear it at all....

When he told me about his going up with a nearly empty tank.... He said it was the DM fault.....

It is this kind of mentality that we need to teach CESA. I had told my sister who dove with him on the 5th dive that we got to watch over him like a hawk, because he is too cocky and too incompetent... But despite my warnings - we still had a close to OOA situation.

dbulmer
March 29th, 2007, 03:47 PM
PerroneFord,
That's how I (try) to do it but it takes practice - for example the tide is running a little bit. You keep in front of the diver and watch him but at the same time you don't want to get too close - stay away from that line etc. Stick in poor vis and you really have a test of buoyancy control ie not too close but close enough to assist. It's hard and at that point losing your buddy can happen so the other sucker might end up having to put up another DSMB because he's lost his buddy, needs to ascend because of lost diver protocol , takes a minute to take out the spool from the pocket , another minute to put up the DSMB so you end up with 2 DSMbs (2 solo events) drifting a bit away at the surface.

Happened to me a week or so - I told you I was crap ! :) Forgot the other minute to look around 360 degrees up and down.

Lehmann108
March 29th, 2007, 03:50 PM
Good thing we now have pressure gauges...not a reason.


You're right here, purposely putting yourself behind the 8-ball of gas management requires learning and adhering to gas managment principles, not learning cesa. Again not a valid reason for cesa.


No, it illustrates the reason why proper team diving is essential for successful dives when little things go wrong from time to time, instead of solo diving. Doing an 80ft cesa would probably work well a huge majority of the time if that's your bag, but speaking only for myself in our team environment, I'll stick with a controlled ascent on the long hose, which is clearly a safer method.

45 years of evidently successful solo diving to upwards of 200ft certainly is impressive, and maybe shows just how often gear doesn't break down or cause issues, but it's not the type of diving I'd be teaching or touting as safe. Why you haven't been laughed off of scooby-board only shows the level of understanding most people have with respect to responsible diving around here.

No offense Rick, but maybe sitting there at 1 ATA typing your post sounds like you'd be able to work through most of those problems via a successful cesa may sound logical, but in reality is pretty much laughable bud.

I'm having a 'heart attack'..maybe I'll do a cesa,........I'm going to be panicking in 10 seconds, maybe I'll do a cesa.....c'mon...what a joke.

But hey, let's see how many times we can flog the same pony....have fun kids.

:deadhorse:

I swear, if some of you would spend as much time perfecting proper individual and team skills as you do on BS cesa arguments, you'd be way further ahead.

Wow! I'm a newbie, but sometimes the visibilty on scubaboard is so good you can see right through some posters. :11:

H2Andy
March 29th, 2007, 03:56 PM
again?

can't we pick on Thas or something?

limeyx
March 29th, 2007, 04:09 PM
You're on a site with the crewed boat anchored above.
You are at 100'
You've been there for 20 minutes.
You have plenty of gas.
Your team is nearby.
You have an injury. (this is a single, unforeseeable event - not a "poor planning" event or a "chain of events")
You have 60 seconds of useful consciousness.
What's your plan.
Mine's a CESA, on the surface with 10 seconds to say "help."
Rick

if I have enough consciousness to do a CESA, I have enough to swim toward my team, vigorously signaling them with my light, *especially* if i think i might lose consciousness because they are the people that are going to try to keep a reg in my mouth to keep me breathing on the way up.

way better than trying to ascend from 100 feet to the surface in 60 seconds ...sounds like a "inflate BC and hope I wake up in the chamber" rather than a CESA anyway.

limeyx
March 29th, 2007, 04:14 PM
Precisely.
...
My properly trained and disciplined buddy will be right on my tail to help if I don't make it, right?
Rick

Depends if he can find you. Say he takes 20 seconds to notice you aren't behind him, and the vis is 15 feet or worse.

By the time your buddy manages to get to you, you could have drowned on the surface as your face flops into the water.

Give me the services of a good buddy any time.

I think teaching a CESA even it is a "building block" as some have said is not useful because it instills the thought into a lot ofpeople heads that "oh, I can always do a CESA if I mess up" when that should be only the "OMG" option when there is absolutely nothing else that will work, and the other choice is drowning.

airsix
March 29th, 2007, 04:21 PM
Wow! I'm a newbie, but sometimes the visibilty on scubaboard is so good you can see right through some posters. :11:


High-five. :D

-Ben M.

DeepBound
March 29th, 2007, 04:21 PM
Your buddy calls the dive due to reaching agreed-upon gas pressure and you head back towards the upline. As you reach the upline, your wing suddenly fails and you drop down 30ft to the bottom while attempting to correct it. Your buddy follows you down to help you but you've become tangled in a fishnet. Your buddy tries to get you untangled but because of the increased depth and stress he's using up his gas quickly. He decides to save his own life he has to ascend to get help.

Your buddy is ascending, and as you continue to try to get out of the net, yoru regulator gets snagged and you can't reach it anymore. You cut off your own gear, and its all tangled in the fishnet, and you're down to 200psi by now. You're wearing a weight belt, but pick up a rock to add to your weight to make up for the removed gear.

What option do you have now, besides CESA?

PerroneFord
March 29th, 2007, 04:23 PM
PerroneFord,
That's how I (try) to do it but it takes practice - for example the tide is running a little bit. You keep in front of the diver and watch him but at the same time you don't want to get too close - stay away from that line etc. Stick in poor vis and you really have a test of buoyancy control ie not too close but close enough to assist. It's hard and at that point losing your buddy can happen so the other sucker might end up having to put up another DSMB because he's lost his buddy, needs to ascend because of lost diver protocol , takes a minute to take out the spool from the pocket , another minute to put up the DSMB so you end up with 2 DSMbs (2 solo events) drifting a bit away at the surface.

Happened to me a week or so - I told you I was crap ! :) Forgot the other minute to look around 360 degrees up and down.

Crap?? Sounds like you're pretty darn ok to me! We ALL struggle with this stuff man. It's not easy. I have good days and bad. Some days I can hover 6" off the silt and do whatever I want. Some days, like last Sunday, I couldn't stay within 5ft of my target depth, and actually corked. First time I'd done that in over a year. It's a constant struggle. As the diving season ramps up, and I get more practice, I get more consistent. I'm getting 2-4 dives a month right now, in a couple months it'll be 2-4 dives a week.

If you ever get a chance, take a GUE Fundamentals or the NAUI equivalent course. I think you'll find it worthwhile and fun. And you get to work through stuff like your bag shooting. Which you get to do in a team of 3-5. FUN stuff! Trying to stay out of everyone's way is a hoot!

BKP
March 29th, 2007, 04:35 PM
Good thread. Question to all (except Steve R... wouldn't want to get his panties in a knot...):
How would you define the situation if it wasn't your incapacity...? You're at 100 feet, and your spouse/buddy goes into sudden distress (choking, seizing, passing out, unable to breathe, etc.). Is a CESA (as defined by Rick, with gas) now warranted?

GreenDiverDown
March 29th, 2007, 04:43 PM
You're at 100 feet, and your spouse/buddy goes into sudden distress (choking, seizing, passing out, unable to breathe, etc.). Is a CESA (as defined by Rick, with gas) now warranted?

I suppose that would depend on your relationship with your spouse. :14:

Heffey
March 29th, 2007, 05:06 PM
Good thread. Question to all (except Steve R... wouldn't want to get his panties in a knot...):
How would you define the situation if it wasn't your incapacity...? You're at 100 feet, and your spouse/buddy goes into sudden distress (choking, seizing, passing out, unable to breathe, etc.). Is a CESA (as defined by Rick, with gas) now warranted?
No, a good buddy wouldn’t choke, seize or pass out unless the two of you had practiced it before.:rofl3:

BKP
March 29th, 2007, 05:08 PM
I suppose that would depend on your relationship with your spouse. :14:
Good point... good thing Lynn Turner, the anti-freeze killer, doesn't dive...

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 05:29 PM
Your buddy calls the dive due to reaching agreed-upon gas pressure and you head back towards the upline. As you reach the upline, your wing suddenly fails and you drop down 30ft to the bottom while attempting to correct it. Your buddy follows you down to help you but you've become tangled in a fishnet. Your buddy tries to get you untangled but because of the increased depth and stress he's using up his gas quickly. He decides to save his own life he has to ascend to get help.

Your buddy is ascending, and as you continue to try to get out of the net, yoru regulator gets snagged and you can't reach it anymore. You cut off your own gear, and its all tangled in the fishnet, and you're down to 200psi by now. You're wearing a weight belt, but pick up a rock to add to your weight to make up for the removed gear.

What option do you have now, besides CESA? I see this thread has outlived its usefulness...
Rick :)

dumpsterDiver
March 29th, 2007, 05:47 PM
If I was presented with the feeling that I was going to pass out immediately and I could not immediately signal my buddy that I needed to ascend, then I would be on my inflator. I would not be swimming up. I would hopefully have my other hand on the weight belt, and wait to ditch that until the last moment. Swimming while neutrally bouyant is much more work then is necessary in my mind. If after completing a portion of the ascent in a bouyant condition, and the diver feels somewhat better, he can always just flare out, dump air from the BC and try to hang for a few moments at 20 ft.

I was once diving solo at around 170 feet and almost instantly upon arriving at depth became extremely dizzy and my ability to see became very poor. I was reasonably sure that the symptoms were due to a reverse squeeze or un-equal equalization in one ear, however this time it felt different. I was also taking psuedophederine and was suddenly concerned that (since I had both nitrox and air tanks on board) that I might have mixed up an air tank with a nitrox tank and I might be experiencing impending oxygen convulsions. (Maybe the narcosis was affecting my thinking somewhat also, but my head was spinning and there was no way that I could read my guages). I was really pretty alarmed and I just totally relaxed my body, filled the BC and went for a quick ride to around 60 feet or so. The thought of doing a rapid SWIMMING ascent really didn't cross my mind and I knew that I could not see well enough to effectively monitor the speed of my ascent while swimming.

My whole point is that, if a diver REALLY feels that they are willing to risk nearly everything to get to the surface fast, establishing positive bouyancy ASAP should be a higher priority than trying to swim up. Of course, I think too many people would get killed if we really tried to teach emergency bouyant ascents, but that is how I will handle the situation. I think it is an important skill, that a diver should try to at least mentally rehearse.

mdb
March 29th, 2007, 06:02 PM
I see this thread has outlived its usefulness...
Rick :)

Rick: Sure you were not surprised. The folks who think CESA is not necessary and their "teams" etc are the answer will continue to post the same stuff over and over.

I've done 3-4 CESA's over the past 35 years. Glad that I had practiced. As you pointed out in your OP, it is just one more tool. Nothing more complicated than that.

caseybird
March 29th, 2007, 06:31 PM
can't we pick on Thas or something?
Don't worry Thas, I've got your back.
:m16:

Steve

LetterBoy
March 29th, 2007, 06:35 PM
Don't worry Thas, I've got your back.
:m16:

Steve

I believe thats called brown nosing. . .and here is a bigger gun for you. . .

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/jhbryaniv/m16x.gif

jeckyll
March 29th, 2007, 06:52 PM
I've never had to CESA. But I've had one issue in current where I thumbed the dive and ascended at a rather quick rate (I detailed it in 'incidents and lessons learned').

I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing and understanding the skill. Personally, I wouldn't dive beyond 80 fsw without doubles (or if nothing else was available due to boat size restrictions a slung 40) and a buddy I trust.

In much of the water I dive (cold, dark often between 80 & 100 fsw) I would think that in the emergencies listed by Rick I would still signal my buddy/team first. I would count on them to get me to the surface should I fail part way. On a couple of occasions I have turned dives due to onsets of slight panic narcs, but always under controlled circumstances.

I think that CESA's due to lack of gas planning or attention to reserves should be unnecessary in todays day & age given the technology available, and the ease with which the information required to do basic Rock Bottom gas planning is available online :)

String
March 29th, 2007, 07:00 PM
1. CVA. A cardio-vascular accident - a survivable heart attack, stroke, etc often leaves little time for decision-making and action before complete disability to do anything useful, like informing a buddy you're in distress. An immediate CESA could give you a chance to avoid certain drowning, and to get to help on the boat in time to save your life. Every second counts.

Something like that you're unlikely to make a controlled proper rate ascent anyway which is what cesa is supposed to be. You also still have air so can breathe so dont need to worry about silly hums and breathing out all the time.

Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?



2. Bleeding. A severe cut or bite can start the blood-loss clock; your ability to do anything may be short lived and a CESA while you can do something can once again get you to a more survivable environment.

Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?



3. Severe pain. Whether it be some internal source (sudden burst appendix or ovarian cyst or kidney stone etc) or from injury (poisonous spine, sea wasp etc), once again, pain of this magnitude may severely limit your time of useful consciousness; time to topside help is of the essence and a CESA may be your best choice.


Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?



4. Impending panic. It is far, far better to do a CESA while still in control than to allow panic to take over and do a UPA ("Uncontrolled Panicked Ascent"). Indeed, just knowing you have the option and are competent at the CESA can go a long way in keeping under controll in the first place.

I suspect trying for the surface whilst trying not to breathe is likely to induce panic far more easily than ascending and continuing to breathe.


Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?

All of the above you have air so why would you choose to ascend without using it? Rather than worrying about making noises, blowing out etc why not ascend at a similar rate while continuing to breathe your gas?


---


The CESA should remain in the syllabus at the entry level; the ability to conduct a safe, rapid emergency ascent without danger of an overexpansion injury should be ingrained to the point of "automatic" in every Scuba Diver, even those who will never, ever run out of air. IOW, I think the CESA is as important in a Scuba Diver's "tool kit" as a wrench is to a mechanic.
Rick

Im of the view its a dangerous relic with no place in the modern world and should be remove. Some agencies have already done it, hopefully more will follow suit. It puts divers in the wrong mindset entirely for dealing with problems underwater.
Fosters the very bolt and pray instinct dive training is trying to remove.

Tom R
March 29th, 2007, 07:01 PM
What a joke? Is that supposed to be a rebuttal, or an argument of some form? If you disagree, I for one would like to hear a reason. If you don't have one, insulting the OP is childish and impolite.

Pot calling Kettle, come in Kettle

300bar
March 29th, 2007, 07:04 PM
ok here's my small input on cesa,

I've forgoten all about this for a long time(must have been on my flash braincell(1)):D

About 10 years ago my wife and I rented some tanks in egypte,we first checked out the divecenter and it was brand new(includining tanks and compressor)
So we went out for a 2 person dive. a normal ean 21% so there was no gas check :shakehead
After a few minutes and a good 20m we both began to feel (very)sick.The gas was havely poluted with CO.(wich we found out later) we both gave the out of air signal(on a full tank) and both made a cesa,because we both feld we could not breath this air.
I think, if we would not have done a cesa and made a normal breathing accent,we would not have been here anymore.:no

So yes there is a place for cesa IMO as a last resort

ps.. at that time we already had 15 years of diving logged so we where no newbys,
if we had been, we might have smelled on the air, as experianced divers we didn't:eyebrow:

GreenDiverDown
March 29th, 2007, 07:42 PM
Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?



Your question makes no sense given how Rick has defined CESA for this thread. Nowhere has he suggested that one should not continue to breathe while they still have air available. To suggest otherwise is silly.

Diver Dennis
March 29th, 2007, 08:21 PM
I agree Stephen. A CESA is not an out of control ascent and even with gas, you would still be breathing out all the way up because of the ascent rate. Rick definition of a CESA is correct IMO. I always thought it was ascending at a rate that you had to be breathing out all the way up, not necessarily only because you you were out of gas.

String
March 29th, 2007, 08:58 PM
Your question makes no sense given how Rick has defined CESA for this thread. Nowhere has he suggested that one should not continue to breathe while they still have air available. To suggest otherwise is silly.

In that case its not called a CESA, its called an ascent.

All divers train to do them and get to practice them on every dive.

A controlled rate ascent executed while breathing through a reg. Yep, thats an ascent.

CESA to me is non-breathing bolt n pray.

caseybird
March 29th, 2007, 08:59 PM
I believe thats called brown nosing. . .and here is a bigger gun for you. . .

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/jhbryaniv/m16x.gif


Thanks for the gun.

fisherdvm
March 29th, 2007, 09:04 PM
CESA to me is non-breathing bolt n pray.

Or better, non-inhaling, non-breath holding, exhaling bolt and pray.

Cheekymonkey
March 29th, 2007, 09:06 PM
There have been a couple of threads on the CESA lately, with several folks declaring it an unnecessary skill, because with "proper" diving skills you'd never need it.

Here are just two of many examples (I ain't pickin' on you two; y'all just said it clearer and in fewer words than the others :) )


It seems many folks feel the only reason anyone would want to do a CESA is in an out-of-gas situation, and since any good diver will never, ever be in that situation then the CESA is not a necessary skill.
I'd like to revisit that.
What is a "Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent" and what are some of the reasons we might want to do one? The CESA is simply the means to make an emergency ascent to the surface. Are there reasons we might want to do that other than being low on, or out of gas? I say "Absolutely!"
Because there are reasons other than "gas planning and buddy skills" that might lead to the CESA decision, the ability to do a safe CESA in the face of great stress, pain or distress or injury is an essential skill for all Scuba Divers.
What are some of those reasons?
1. CVA. A cardio-vascular accident - a survivable heart attack, stroke, etc often leaves little time for decision-making and action before complete disability to do anything useful, like informing a buddy you're in distress. An immediate CESA could give you a chance to avoid certain drowning, and to get to help on the boat in time to save your life. Every second counts.
2. Bleeding. A severe cut or bite can start the blood-loss clock; your ability to do anything may be short lived and a CESA while you can do something can once again get you to a more survivable environment.
3. Severe pain. Whether it be some internal source (sudden burst appendix or ovarian cyst or kidney stone etc) or from injury (poisonous spine, sea wasp etc), once again, pain of this magnitude may severely limit your time of useful consciousness; time to topside help is of the essence and a CESA may be your best choice.
4. Impending panic. It is far, far better to do a CESA while still in control than to allow panic to take over and do a UPA ("Uncontrolled Panicked Ascent"). Indeed, just knowing you have the option and are competent at the CESA can go a long way in keeping under controll in the first place.
---
The CESA should remain in the syllabus at the entry level; the ability to conduct a safe, rapid emergency ascent without danger of an overexpansion injury should be ingrained to the point of "automatic" in every Scuba Diver, even those who will never, ever run out of air. IOW, I think the CESA is as important in a Scuba Diver's "tool kit" as a wrench is to a mechanic.
Rick

I praise you Rick

D_B
March 29th, 2007, 09:07 PM
They don't teach spin recovery training any more, only stall avoidance ... Why? ... because you should not get yourself in a spin ... Well guess what? it still happens .
Good post Rick, I want to have ALL my options, for whatever reason

friscuba
March 29th, 2007, 09:14 PM
I've had to essentially CESA before with plenty of air, to rescue a panicky diver. 60 feet to 20 feet in all too fast of an amount of time. I exhaled all the way and caught up with them before they caused themselves a whole lot of possible harm. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered.

Some of the...proper buddy awareness/management posters take some things for granted - like being able to see your buddy. It's only happened to me once, but I was on a dive off Oregon where the viz went from about 8-9 feet to 4 inches in about 15 seconds (a red tide rolled in) or less. If he hadn't been right next to me we'd have never been able to find each other. I felt him grab my leg I looked down and all I could see was his arm, then his hand, then my own bcd then nothing. He basically wrapped up on me and we went straight up slowly. There was no such thing as proper light signals, it was nasty soup. Afterwards he said he was right behind me and then saw it go dark and it was pretty much luck that he caught my leg becasue he's just seen the fin moments before.

Stuff can happen, just because it generally doesn't shouldn't mean it shouldn't be taught... otherwise all the DIR guys with seven foot hoses in clear tropical caveless and wreckless environments are just wasting hose.

later,

fisherdvm
March 29th, 2007, 09:16 PM
1. CVA. A cardio-vascular accident - a survivable heart attack, stroke, etc often leaves little time for decision-making and action before complete disability to do anything useful, like informing a buddy you're in distress. An immediate CESA could give you a chance to avoid certain drowning, and to get to help on the boat in time to save your life. Every second counts.

Nitty picky stuff:

1. CVA - cerebral vacular accident - or a stroke. Certainly can happen underwater. We would like to treat it as a "brain attack", but rushing to the surface would add a few nitrogen bubbles and blow out a few more pieces of brain. Ascend at a safe rate - or have your buddy help you ascend at a safe rate. Then they can rush you to the hospital for determination the type of stroke - thrombotic vs. hemorrhagic, and can give you thrombolytic therapy ASAP. But don't rush to the surface because of a CVA.

2. MI - myocardial infarction - or a heart attack - certainly exertion can exarcebate it. I don't think rushing to the surface would make a difference. Pain in the chest that improves with rest is angina. A relaxed slow ascend without panicking would be preferred than rushing to the surface and risk adding more damage to the rest of your body. I don't think spending time in the compression chamber is preferable to being in the MI-CU at 1 ATM. I would say - have chest pain? Signal to your buddy to assist you, and swim up to the surface at a safe 30-60 ft min rate. Take your 1 min to 3 min safety stop if you can. Getting you to the surface faster will just mean they can give you an aspirin earlier, and hopefully some oxygen.

3. Massive MI with cardiac arrest under the water?? You are a dead man.... Whether they get you to the surface fast enough or not. CPR on open water - then NO AED on the dive boat equals a deader than a door knob dead man. Without defibrillation - your chance of surviving a cardiac arrest with a normal IQ is ZERO. Certainly, by the time they get ashore... continueing CPR ... you might still be alive, but probably can not take care of yourself ever.... If I had cardiac arrest diving... at least I died doing something I love.

In either of this case, buddy assisted slow ascent will add less burden to your brain, or your heart.

fisherdvm
March 29th, 2007, 09:19 PM
2. Bleeding. A severe cut or bite can start the blood-loss clock; your ability to do anything may be short lived and a CESA while you can do something can once again get you to a more survivable environment.

Yes, perhaps if a shark rip out your leg... Can't swim too fast, so I guess a bouyant ascent is the easiest way to go. But if your buddy was near, and the cut is small enough for a direct pressure with his hand or thumb .... Slow ascent is still the way to go. Unless you know that your nitrogen level is very low.

fisherdvm
March 29th, 2007, 09:23 PM
4. Impending panic. It is far, far better to do a CESA while still in control than to allow panic to take over and do a UPA ("Uncontrolled Panicked Ascent"). Indeed, just knowing you have the option and are competent at the CESA can go a long way in keeping under controll in the first place.
---


I totally agree with this. The more we discuss about CESA, buoyant ESA, swim ESA, wet ESA (without a reg in the mouth), dry ESA (with a dry reg in the mouth), etc. etc... The more comfortable a diver will be when the situation arise. The best valium for a scuba diver is a working reg and at least 1000 psi. The best valium when your reg doesn't work and 0 psi is the quick thinking, instant reflex.....

... "I am gagging... got water in my mouth.... my reg is flooded.... pull weight belt... whistle as you kick.... Hopefully, the bend wouldn't hurt too much...."""

fisherdvm
March 29th, 2007, 09:26 PM
3. Severe pain. Whether it be some internal source (sudden burst appendix or ovarian cyst or kidney stone etc) or from injury (poisonous spine, sea wasp etc), once again, pain of this magnitude may severely limit your time of useful consciousness; time to topside help is of the essence and a CESA may be your best choice.


If I had to deal with any of the above injuries, I would much rather treat you in an office at 1 ATM than in a compression chamber. Unless you are sure of your nitrogen status... controlled, slow ascent with a buddy is best. Saving 2 minutes to get to the surface and ending up with DCS is not a good enough reason to do an ESA.

GreenDiverDown
March 29th, 2007, 09:30 PM
In that case its not called a CESA, its called an ascent.

All divers train to do them and get to practice them on every dive.

A controlled rate ascent executed while breathing through a reg. Yep, thats an ascent.

CESA to me is non-breathing bolt n pray.

That's fine. Just start your own thread. I don't think that's what Rick has described for this one.

Rick Murchison
March 29th, 2007, 09:50 PM
Something like that you're unlikely to make a controlled proper rate ascent anyway which is what cesa is supposed to be. You also still have air so can breathe so dont need to worry about silly hums and breathing out all the time.

Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?



Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?




Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?



I suspect trying for the surface whilst trying not to breathe is likely to induce panic far more easily than ascending and continuing to breathe.


Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?

All of the above you have air so why would you choose to ascend without using it? Rather than worrying about making noises, blowing out etc why not ascend at a similar rate while continuing to breathe your gas?


---


Im of the view its a dangerous relic with no place in the modern world and should be remove. Some agencies have already done it, hopefully more will follow suit. It puts divers in the wrong mindset entirely for dealing with problems underwater.
Fosters the very bolt and pray instinct dive training is trying to remove. I've defined CESA for this thread three times now.
Here it is again.
"Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent" does not mean "Controlled Emergency Out Of Air Swimming Ascent." It just means swimming to the surface quickly - safely and in control - in an emergency, which may or may not be "out of air."
During a CESA you continue to breathe. If you can't inhale, because you're not getting anything from your air delivery system, breathing means exhaling, but when you do have gas during the controlled emergency swimming ascent (CESA), by all means inhale if you want to. Inhaling or exhaling is breathing, and breathing during the CESA is key to avoiding an overexpansion injury.
I'm really at a loss to understand why so many of you equate a CESA with "don't inhale." Even in an out of gas situation (which of course will never happen), if you (oops, not you, someone else) run out of breath on the way up, by all means see if the decreasing pressure around the tank will allow you to get another breath. It probably will. Even when teaching the OOA CESA, I tell students "The important thing is to keep your airway open during the entire ascent. The best way to insure that the airway stays open is to always breathe. Since in this case we're simulating an 'out of air' situation, and therefore you can't inhale, the only way you can keep breathing when you start the ascent is to exhale. Just for the drill, try to make whatever air you have in your lungs when you start the ascent last all the way; keep a steady stream of bubbles coming out. Use your vocal cords to fine tune your exhalation if you want. If you run out of breath, go ahead and inhale, then start exhaling again. In a real OOA CESA you may or may not get another breath, depending on the failure mode of your gas supply, but that's ok - as long as you're trying to inhale you're keeping the airway open as well as when exhaling. Inhaling or exhaling, you're breathing and the airway's open."
The whole point of this thread is this: (again) There are situations other than "out of gas" that warrant a controlled emergency swimming ascent. Knowing how to safely do it is a necessary skill for the competent scuba diver.
If you still want to argue that there's no CESA but an OOA CESA then have at it, but please take it elsewhere, 'cause that ain't what we're discussing in this thread.
Rick

drbill
March 29th, 2007, 10:00 PM
Good thing we now have pressure gauges...not a reason.


You're right here, purposely putting yourself behind the 8-ball of gas management requires learning and adhering to gas managment principles, not learning cesa. Again not a valid reason for cesa.


No, it illustrates the reason why proper team diving is essential for successful dives when little things go wrong from time to time, instead of solo diving. Doing an 80ft cesa would probably work well a huge majority of the time if that's your bag, but speaking only for myself in our team environment, I'll stick with a controlled ascent on the long hose, which is clearly a safer method.

45 years of evidently successful solo diving to upwards of 200ft certainly is impressive, and maybe shows just how often gear doesn't break down or cause issues, but it's not the type of diving I'd be teaching or touting as safe. Why you haven't been laughed off of scooby-board only shows the level of understanding most people have with respect to responsible diving around here.

No offense Rick, but maybe sitting there at 1 ATA typing your post sounds like you'd be able to work through most of those problems via a successful cesa may sound logical, but in reality is pretty much laughable bud.

I'm having a 'heart attack'..maybe I'll do a cesa,........I'm going to be panicking in 10 seconds, maybe I'll do a cesa.....c'mon...what a joke.

But hey, let's see how many times we can flog the same pony....have fun kids.

:deadhorse:

I swear, if some of you would spend as much time perfecting proper individual and team skills as you do on BS cesa arguments, you'd be way further ahead.

Well, so "nice" of you to join in the discussion, add your somewhat arrogant and definitely sarcastic two cents worth and then bow out! Welcome to ScubaBoard, Steve. Just the kind of guy we like to see here. I think you'll fit in nicely... at least with a few of the members who seem to prefer to criticize the comments of other divers with little to no understanding of the type of diving they do, or why they do it (I'm basing that on your 10 posts worth of experience on SB, although you may be one of those who lurk long and hard before they contribute anything substantive to these discussions. If they "bore" you and you don't feel like further beating what you perceive as a dead horse, then you have the option of simply leaving the thread without comment. I guess that was too difficult for you, though... eh?

No question that you raise some issues based on your opinions. And your opinions may be very valid in a number of situations... that I won't deny. However, I find it rather arrogant for you to criticize both myself and Rick when you probably know next to nothing about our diving habits, why we engage in them, what our training is to do them, etc.

Yes, we now have SPG's. "No excuse" as you say... until the needle on your gauge sticks at 1,500 psi while your tank drains to 0. I've seen it happen. Neither analog nor digital SPG's are perfect... but they are far better than when we had to dive without them!

My second example involved an ascent from about 15-20 ft with a tank that I knowingly emptied to zero because the subject I was filming was extremely important to me to get good footage of. While I never drain a tank in normal diving (especially a HP steel tank), in that case it was an informed decision based on the value of the footage I was able to take. The subject would have been long gone if I'd gone up to get another tank to continue the dive. I should add I had the tank visualed after emptying it.

As for the third, I acknowledge that I violated one of my own rules of solo diving... never do it without an adequate pony bottle for the depths. I had intended to go to 40 ft, but was drawn down to 70 ft by another subject I wanted to film. No question that I took something of a risk there, one that I've never taken since. A CESA from the 70 ft depth was not life threatening, although I would have preferred having my pony bottle with me. It is always on my kit now even if I'm diving to 10-15 ft. When one is a videographer, one cannot always plan dives... nature often plans them for you. A wreck diver diving at a known location to a known range of depths has the ability to (and should) plan their dive and dive their plan.

And as to the solo diving to 200 ft, I agree. It is NOT something I would suggest to anyone else. In fact I will NOT take any of my regular buddies (who are all skilled and experienced instructors) to that depth with me. I acknowledge the risks, I advise the dive boat that they are NOT to go after me at such depths, and I have told my family that should something happen to me on those dives I do not want them to hold the dive operator responsible unless gross negligence is demonstrated (something highly unlikely with the boat and crew I dive with).

When I'm diving on the boat with OW or AOW classes, I appreciate it when their instructors explain why they shouldn't dive solo like I have done for over 45 years. I do not recommend solo diving to anyone else... I'm not in a position to judge their capabilities, their response to narcosis or their response to unexpected emergencies.

As for my gas management skills, I am considered quite good at estimating gas consumption and the duration at varying depths of my dives. Even when I do the 200 ft dives, they usually last 55-60 min and I return with 500 psi in my tank despite extending any deco obligation two- or three-fold to be extra cautious. I spend many of my dives practicing gas management by setting dive goals (depth/duration) and managing my gas to meet those goals while consuming the anticipated amount of gas.

So while your cautionary advice is well warranted, and I would hope you would teach your classes based on those recommendations, your delivery to both Rick and me seems (at least to me) to be distastefully arrogant. But that's just my opinion! Welcome on board.

Diver Dennis
March 29th, 2007, 11:34 PM
Seems pretty clear to me Rick.

Nice one Dr. Bill. I am of the same opinion.

dry heat diver
March 29th, 2007, 11:54 PM
There have been a couple of threads on the CESA lately, with several folks declaring it an unnecessary skill, because with "proper" diving skills you'd never need it.

Here are just two of many examples (I ain't pickin' on you two; y'all just said it clearer and in fewer words than the others :) )


It seems many folks feel the only reason anyone would want to do a CESA is in an out-of-gas situation, and since any good diver will never, ever be in that situation then the CESA is not a necessary skill.
I'd like to revisit that.
What is a "Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent" and what are some of the reasons we might want to do one? The CESA is simply the means to make an emergency ascent to the surface. Are there reasons we might want to do that other than being low on, or out of gas? I say "Absolutely!"
Because there are reasons other than "gas planning and buddy skills" that might lead to the CESA decision, the ability to do a safe CESA in the face of great stress, pain or distress or injury is an essential skill for all Scuba Divers.
What are some of those reasons?
1. CVA. A cardio-vascular accident - a survivable heart attack, stroke, etc often leaves little time for decision-making and action before complete disability to do anything useful, like informing a buddy you're in distress. An immediate CESA could give you a chance to avoid certain drowning, and to get to help on the boat in time to save your life. Every second counts.
2. Bleeding. A severe cut or bite can start the blood-loss clock; your ability to do anything may be short lived and a CESA while you can do something can once again get you to a more survivable environment.
3. Severe pain. Whether it be some internal source (sudden burst appendix or ovarian cyst or kidney stone etc) or from injury (poisonous spine, sea wasp etc), once again, pain of this magnitude may severely limit your time of useful consciousness; time to topside help is of the essence and a CESA may be your best choice.
4. Impending panic. It is far, far better to do a CESA while still in control than to allow panic to take over and do a UPA ("Uncontrolled Panicked Ascent"). Indeed, just knowing you have the option and are competent at the CESA can go a long way in keeping under controll in the first place.
---
The CESA should remain in the syllabus at the entry level; the ability to conduct a safe, rapid emergency ascent without danger of an overexpansion injury should be ingrained to the point of "automatic" in every Scuba Diver, even those who will never, ever run out of air. IOW, I think the CESA is as important in a Scuba Diver's "tool kit" as a wrench is to a mechanic.
Rick
Good information for us noobies. Thanks for sharing.

Rick Murchison
March 30th, 2007, 12:45 AM
They don't teach spin recovery training any more,Surely you jest!
Talk about essential skills!
Sheeesh!
Rick (CFI 1733438 - 1967)

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 12:50 AM
In those instances, assuming you still have air, you think the CESA is a better choice than a normal ascent? What am I missing?

Somebody suffering from severe crushing chest pain is not able to ascend "normally".

You know? ... those people that cross medians?

Lamont and Soggy are ten pound brains but have not been brought to their knees yet, maybe? Once you have had your own "come to Jesus" moment, I think this *crude* survival skill becomes more understandable. Then again, maybe the team really does prevent that. It's too late for me to change the way I think, lol. For me, it's about controlling your airway and conceptualizing how not to blow a lung.

Lets say you are hemmoraging, as in surfer Bethany and her arm was gone. Are you going to take your time and watch yourself bleed out?

Obviously, there are depths where you might consider not going for the surface, with a big deco load. At least you have options.

And for those of us who often don't have buddies... well, like it or not, we take the same OW course.

CESA saves a lot of people, I'm guessing. Most divers at recreational depths, I think can usually get to the surface without buying a chamber ride.

redrover
March 30th, 2007, 01:01 AM
….every solution may cause pleasure and gladness to know about. I say; the more the merrier.

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 01:29 AM
Lisa! That is your shortest post EVER! :D

Seriously, that "DIR" attitude of "We train for all possibilities and nothing else is on the radar" is what makes some DIR divers scarey, to me. I dive with all types. I know one excellent DIR diver. The others are a bit of a mess, works in progress, But they have beautiful trim! ...then they do the most amazing things. I think THEY should skip CESA and just wing it if they ever change their mind down there, lol.

lamont
March 30th, 2007, 01:44 AM
There have been a couple of threads on the CESA lately, with several folks declaring it an unnecessary skill, because with "proper" diving skills you'd never need it.

Here are just two of many examples (I ain't pickin' on you two; y'all just said it clearer and in fewer words than the others :) )

It seems many folks feel the only reason anyone would want to do a CESA is in an out-of-gas situation, and since any good diver will never, ever be in that situation then the CESA is not a necessary skill.
I'd like to revisit that.
What is a "Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent" and what are some of the reasons we might want to do one? The CESA is simply the means to make an emergency ascent to the surface. Are there reasons we might want to do that other than being low on, or out of gas? I say "Absolutely!"
Because there are reasons other than "gas planning and buddy skills" that might lead to the CESA decision, the ability to do a safe CESA in the face of great stress, pain or distress or injury is an essential skill for all Scuba Divers.
What are some of those reasons?
1. CVA. A cardio-vascular accident - a survivable heart attack, stroke, etc often leaves little time for decision-making and action before complete disability to do anything useful, like informing a buddy you're in distress. An immediate CESA could give you a chance to avoid certain drowning, and to get to help on the boat in time to save your life. Every second counts.
2. Bleeding. A severe cut or bite can start the blood-loss clock; your ability to do anything may be short lived and a CESA while you can do something can once again get you to a more survivable environment.
3. Severe pain. Whether it be some internal source (sudden burst appendix or ovarian cyst or kidney stone etc) or from injury (poisonous spine, sea wasp etc), once again, pain of this magnitude may severely limit your time of useful consciousness; time to topside help is of the essence and a CESA may be your best choice.
4. Impending panic. It is far, far better to do a CESA while still in control than to allow panic to take over and do a UPA ("Uncontrolled Panicked Ascent"). Indeed, just knowing you have the option and are competent at the CESA can go a long way in keeping under controll in the first place.
---
The CESA should remain in the syllabus at the entry level; the ability to conduct a safe, rapid emergency ascent without danger of an overexpansion injury should be ingrained to the point of "automatic" in every Scuba Diver, even those who will never, ever run out of air. IOW, I think the CESA is as important in a Scuba Diver's "tool kit" as a wrench is to a mechanic.
Rick

Rick, I have never written the words "CESA should not be taught" for a reason.

And there's one really good golden reason to learn how to do it, which is that if you are underweighted and you suck your tank down to the point where you can't stay neutral and you shoot to the surface uncontrollably, you better keep your airway open on the way up. I know that I had that happen to me sometime around dive #50 and I wouldn't be here if I didn't know to exhale on the way up.

The way that CESA is currently taught, though, is in response to running out of air. That is completely back-asswards in my viewpoint since the students should be given the skills to manage their gas and stick together so that gas situations don't get to that point. But instead you read incident reports here on scubaboard of "i was at 80 fsw and gave the DM the LOA sign when I hit 500 psi and he just swam off" and the response by some posters is to want to "practice the CESA skill" instead of knowing that you should have at least around 1100 psi of gas left in an Al80 at 80 fsw.

Its also not a very difficult skill, the one time I was called on to exhale on an uncontrolled ballistic ascent I pulled it off fine after only having had the one pool and one OW practice back in my OW class. I don't understand where the desire comes to want to 'practice' something that seems like it should be completely obvious to any certified OW diver.

Meanwhile, all the cases that you cite should be extreme edge conditions. Panic you can deal with by teaching the panic cycle and how to break it and building up experience progressively. Things like CVAs aren't worth thinking about enough to worry about "practicing a CESA" if you are experiencing a CVA -- any such maneuver is a hail mary into the endzone -- you can score a perfect 10.0 from the judges on your CESA and you'll still probably wind up drowned and dead from the CVA.

So, yes divers need to be taught about CESAs. But the major utility of that skill in the ideal world would be the underweighted diver or the weight belt which slips off during the dive. Every OW diver necessarily needs to know how to ascend to the surface on a uncontrolled buoyant ascent without dying in the process. But I don't understand how a sane, thinking certified OW diver can look at their own gas mangement problems and leap to the conclusion that what they really need to do is practice CESAs. Either get a better buddy or even get a pony bottle.

My statement "Gas Planning, Buddy Skills and S-drills can really eliminate the need to ever do a CESA" should be taken *strictly* in the context of the OP in that thread who wanted to practice CESA skills because he was worried about running out of gas. That is really an idiotic response to being afraid of running out of gas since it doesn't solve the underlying problem before it ever gets started and is the wrong end of the equation to be focusing on 'skills practice'. That is what I was responding to. Not to the idea that it should never be taught. It should be taught as a skill to use on a buoyant ascent (and any of the hail mary corner cases you mention, although I doubt I'd recommend teaching those cases to OW students). What is particularly sad is that in OW courses gas management consists of "be back on the boat with 500 psi" and CESA. That is just screwed up in my opinion, sorry.

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 01:58 AM
thinking certified OW diver can look at their own gas mangement problems and leap to the conclusion that what they really need to do is practice CESAs. Either get a better buddy or even get a pony bottle.



So...just for argument's sake, what's wrong with diving solo at 60 feet with no pony, no deco load and...maybe doing a couple CESA's every ten years?

JeffG
March 30th, 2007, 02:01 AM
So...just for argument's sake, what's wrong with diving solo at 60 feet with no pony, no deco load and...maybe doing a couple CESA's every ten years?
For practice or for real?

If its for real...then Darwin is hard on your heels


If for practice....hummmmm....hawwwwww....there may be better solutions to the problem than CESA.

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 02:04 AM
I don't need to practice, but I've done two.

Just not ready to comit to diving joined at the hip.

JeffG
March 30th, 2007, 02:07 AM
I don't need to practice, but I've done two.

So that lack of practice did not hinder the swiming up and breathing out.



Good to know.


Just not ready to comit to diving joined at the hip.
and as an adult...you are allowed that choice.

lamont
March 30th, 2007, 02:48 AM
So...just for argument's sake, what's wrong with diving solo at 60 feet with no pony, no deco load and...maybe doing a couple CESA's every ten years?

I've done a couple of those dives, although they were to 30 fsw, not 60 fsw. The problem is just that if you're planning on a CESA with no gas then you've got huge problems if something else happens at the same time. You are in the regime of a plausible cascade of failures where one event that you plan on seeing every 1-10 years occurs at the same time as something else and the result is a fatality. When the solution is just carrying a pony bottle, I'm definitely more risk averse than that...

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 03:12 AM
You are in the regime of a plausible cascade of failures where one event that you plan on seeing every 1-10 years occurs at the same time as something else and the result is a fatality.

okay, but I don't understand why the probability of the "multiple issues at the same time" approaches "likely to happen" since it's very rare that someone dies but very common that people live because they performed a CESA.

That is the logic I cannot see. I do understand your point about gas planning, btw, especialy at depths exceeding 90 ft or so.

Where I get relegated to the "fringe" SB diving element is diving solo or without a pony, and my point is that it is very common, even when people do not know they are diving solo. I've been diving a lot of years and I have never even actually seen a solo diver with a pony.

The fact is that we solo divers are at one end of the continuum and ..maybe DIR at the other end. Doesn't seem right to "chop us off" as irrelevant because some people relegate us to the "you are an adult" category like it is aberrant deviant behavior.

As long as a healthy percentage of divers turned out of OW class are diving solo, you really need to go along with CESA being taught. Then, the DIR divers (or whoever thinks they don't need it in the toolbox) can just choose not to execute if they have a team available with multiple tanks and redundant everything.

Let's face it. Some planes you can crash land, and others, you cannot.
Most of us can crash land, doing the dives we do. So, to not teach me to coast and set down in the field because you are flying a 767 doesn't make any sense. (probability-wise)

lamont
March 30th, 2007, 03:27 AM
okay, but I don't understand why the probability of the "multiple issues at the same time" approaches "likely to happen" since it's very rare that someone dies but very common that people live because they performed a CESA.

Depends on your definition of "likely to happen" it also isn't really "multiple issues at the same time".

Taking the last issue first, there's a difference between this and the hypothetical where you've got a free-flowing reg, your BC inflator hose pulled off, your drysuit has been catastrophically ripped open, your buddy has just gotten eaten by a shark and while you're ascending up the anchor line the boat is decending down to the bottom. You've got a situation which you now expect to happen once every 1-10 years. It has happened to you twice already, which means that things which happen 1 in 10 times can be expected to occur in conjunction with you having to do a CESA. As you run the risk in your lifetime of doing 10 or more CESAs the proability of having a 1-in-100 event occur at the same time as a CESA hits 1-in-10 in your lifetime. That starts to open up a whole realm of plausible coincidences where you run OOA at the same time as you get entangled by some monofilament or something...

Now when it comes to "likely to happen" I personally like to suppress fatal outcomes to something more along the lines of "winning the lottery in reverse" kinds of events. And even considering 1 in 10,000 events that could kill you if it happened during a CESA if you do 10 CESAs in your lifetime that's a 1 in 1000 chance of dying, which is *much* better odds than winning the lottery. Also, when considering the entire population of divers, if those odds are roughly in the ballpark, that means that 1 in 1000 divers who solo dive without a pony bottle will die screwing up a CESA (but 999 other divers will hop onto scubaboard and claim they've never had an issue -- and that is 9990+ successful CESAs for every fatal one).

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 03:34 AM
I personally like to suppress fatal outcomes to something more along the lines of "winning the lottery in reverse"

I trust your math is correct but I think you believe you have more control about death than you do. Which is okay, because it makes people feel better. But there is a diminished return for worrying about things as they become less and less probable.

(isn't there?)
I hope you at least see my point that there are more solo divers running around pony-less than there are DIR divers planning to perfection.

That fact alone tips the scale to the CESA side. How is this not logical?

Now, if you guys are going to convert us first, and THEN ban CESA, that would be at least a little more logical. But, don't pretend we are not "out there" diving.

This whole discussion points up a very huge issue.

DIR is about being risk aversive. A safer dive is a better dive, etc.

That is not universally accepted. You want to ride to the store with a helmet on in your car? Cause that might make sense, if you took an honest look at MV accident stats.

lamont
March 30th, 2007, 03:46 AM
I trust your math is correct but I think you believe you have more control about death than you do. Which is okay, because it makes people feel better. But there is a diminished return for worrying about things as they become less and less probable.


Well, I don't really need to feel that I'm personally in control of my own death. A friend of mine died awhile back from cancer of the bile duct which normally kills only people over 70, but he was 35 and it was 1 in a million, but he's still gone. Something like that could happen to me, easy, tomorrow. I don't try to help that process along though.

But when we're considering the population of scuba divers and recommending best practices, even statistically reasonably remote chances of death in a lifetime like 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 100,000 can have a large effect on the number of scuba divers dying out there. With an audence potentially listening I wouldn't recommend diving solo without a pony bottle. When it comes to individual risk, though, clearly we all set our own levels of acceptable risk in life.



(isn't there?)
I hope you at least see my point that there are more solo divers running around pony-less than there are DIR divers planning to perfection.

That fact alone tips the scale to the CESA side. How is this not logical?

Well, its just a pony bottle. To me, it feels closer to wearing your seatbelt than it does to be being paralyzed in fear and unable to leave your own home...

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 03:51 AM
So....can you see a difference in "Best Practices" and where the "Rubber meets the Road?"

Cause lots of people are not diving close enough to the buddy to actually have it help a lot. I KNOW you guys are....most divers are not.

So...I am saying that you need to change how people are ACTUALLY DIVING before you drop CESA. All the math in the world doesn't help if you don't see that, IMV.

But, I will agree you don't need to spend much time on it, it is just a reminder not to hold your breath, that's all.

lamont
March 30th, 2007, 03:53 AM
Oh also, we don't really know how often a solo diver runs out of air and dies attempting a CESA. The photographer who recently was lost at sea is a good case in point. Anything could have happened there, but that is exactly how you would expect to read about a fatal OOA/CESA...

lamont
March 30th, 2007, 03:55 AM
So...I am saying that you need to change how people are ACTUALLY DIVING before you drop CESA.

No real argument from me (although I do think it should still be taught, just the emphasis is all wrong).

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 04:02 AM
okay, I can buy that.

The photog did not want to dive with others and did not want to drag cylinders around in addition to his double strobes, let's not forget that part.

Rick Murchison
March 30th, 2007, 08:04 AM
1. CVA - cerebral vacular accident - or a stroke. Certainly can happen underwater. We would like to treat it as a "brain attack", but rushing to the surface would add a few nitrogen bubbles and blow out a few more pieces of brain. Sorry 'bout confusing the acronym... However... There seems to be a great misconception on ascent rates from no stop dive profiles and bubble formation.
First, a bit of history. The 30fpm of today wasn't always the standard. For decades after the development of the Navy tables, 60fpm with no safety stop was the standard. We dove the 60/60/60 (60 feet, 60 minutes max bottom time, 60fpm ascent) tables for decades with a very low (near zero) incidence of DCS. Even the 60fpm rate of ascent was a compromise between the Navy's Scuba divers, who wanted a 100fpm standard, and Hardhat divers who wanted 25fpm. Indeed, we were taught that the tables' efficacy depended on hitting 60fpm quickly and maintaining it - otherwise you'd be ongassing during the ascent and your bottom time wouldn't really be valid any more.
During doppler studies it was discovered that sometimes, asymptomatic, systemic, venous bubbles were forming in divers who were diving profiles near the edges of the 60/60/60 tables. These bubbles were not causing DCS because they were being filtered out by the lungs and dissipated there harmlessly. From these studies come the three modifications to the Navy tables we see today - pull in the "edges" by truncating the tables by one to four pressure groups for depths over 20 feet, reduce the recommended ascent rate from 60 to 30 fpm, and add a safety stop. In the near future I think everyone will also adopt the Pyle stop.
My point is that divers who are diving today's no-stop profiles are not near the edges of the 60/60/60 tables, are not likely to form any bubbles on even the venous side, and certainly extremely unlikely to form any on the arterial side, so that absent a shunting PFO, you're highly unlikely to "add a few nitrogen bubbles" to a stroke in progress, and getting a stroke victim out of the water quidkly trumps that risk to me.

2. MI - myocardial infarction - or a heart attack - certainly exertion can exarcebate it. I don't think rushing to the surface would make a difference. ... A relaxed slow ascend without panicking would be preferred than rushing to the surface and risk adding more damage to the rest of your body. I don't think spending time in the compression chamber is preferable to being in the MI-CU at 1 ATM. How about a relaxed fast ascent, under control (that's what a CESA is, controlled). The latest conference on first aid for heart attack victims says that once a victim goes down, the chances of getting them back decreases about ten percent for every minute that passes. In water compressions are pointless - a real joke - you need to be on deck. Now! A CESA does not "risk adding more damage to the rest of your body." That's the whole point in doing one - getting to the surface quickly and safely.

3. Massive MI with cardiac arrest under the water?? You are a dead man.... Yep. Most likely. As I've said earlier, usually the first visible symptom of a heart attack is sudden death, and a CESA won't help you.
...NO AED on the dive boat ... More and more dive boats are getting them. I'm on a mission to get one on every boat and every corner.

In either of this case, buddy assisted slow ascent will add less burden to your brain, or your heart. A properly done CESA begun from neutral buoyancy is a near effortless maneuver. Indeed, it requires far less effort than swimming even 15 feet horizontally and grabbing a buddy. If you're "working" at it then you need to practice. In a way it's gratifying to see the widespread great concern about bubbling that's surfacing in this thread - that means our efforts to instill caution have not been without effect. But for an emergency where you need to get to the surface, the odds are hugely in favor of a CESA over concerns about bubblng for a diver who is within the recreational no-stop envelope.
Rick

dumpsterDiver
March 30th, 2007, 08:16 AM
I know one excellent DIR diver. The others are a bit of a mess, works in progress, But they have beautiful trim! ...then they do the most amazing things.

I find this comment fits the image of DIR divers that I have acquired from reading this board. I have no idea if it is really representative of the population (since I don't know any of them), but it sure seems funny to me. :) :) :)

Thalassamania
March 30th, 2007, 08:39 AM
... First, a bit of history. The 30fpm of today wasn't always the standard. For decades after the development of the Navy tables, 60fpm with no safety stop was the standard. We dove the 60/60/60 (60 feet, 60 minutes max bottom time, 60fpm ascent) tables for decades with a very low (near zero) incidence of DCS. ... Thanks for the reminder. I find this whole discussion a bit silly since a CESA is so easy to do and has been done with such safety for so many years. Frankly I think its another case of people being afraid of something that they do not understand because an instructor who does know any better was told by an IT who doesn't know any better that if they do that they're all gonna die.

Its the same old story, declare something unnecessarily or dangerous so you can drop it from the curriculum and get your course down to two days.

fisherdvm
March 30th, 2007, 08:43 AM
Yep. Most likely. As I've said earlier, usually the first visible symptom of a heart attack is sudden death, and a CESA won't help you. More and more dive boats are getting them. I'm on a mission to get one on every boat and every corner.



Thanks to you and other very patient scubaboard members, my knowledge of diving medicine has increased exponentially over the last year.

I think what you have said about CESA and MI (heart attack) is valid only if your diveboat has an AED.

Unfortunately, at the point of a heart attack, if you did go into cardiac arrest... I think a controlled buoyant surface ascent would be best. Since it is only a fraction of a second from ventricular fibrillation to loss of consciousness. If you are unconscious at the surface, you are dead..... If you are unconscious at depth, you are dead.

I think the most important thing is to signal to your buddy first, that you are in trouble. Once you lose consciousness.... and bouyantly float to the surface, if your buddy is not aware where you are - you are dead.

But even if your buddy was aware of where you are - chest compression is impossible in the water. As a recent study pointed out, chest compression alone is better than chest compression plus rescue breath...

You are correct that the sooner helps get to a cardiac arrest patient, the better. But in this case, it is the sooner you get to defibrillation the better. I almost think, returning to a dive boat without an AED with a cardiac arrest patient is a lost cause... Hopefully, one of this day, AED's are affordable and mandated on all dive boats.

Rick Murchison
March 30th, 2007, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the reminder. I find this whole discussion a bit silly since a CESA is so easy to do and has been done with such safety for so many years. Frankly I think its another case of people being afraid of something that they do not understand because an instructor who does know any better was told by an IT who doesn't know any better that if they do that they're all gonna die.

Its the same old story, declare something unnecessarily or dangerous so you can drop it from the curriculum and get your course down to two days. This morning I was just thinking about my typical checkout weekend, where I make about two dozen "normal" ascents (monitoring student air-sharing ascents) and a dozen CESAs from 30' or so. I must admit that some days dumping some of that is attractive :)
Rick

Rick Murchison
March 30th, 2007, 09:01 AM
...Hopefully, one of this day, AED's are affordable and mandated on all dive boats. Affordable and available, yes. Mandated? By the market, yes. By government? No, no, no, no, no! Keep the government out of our play. :D
Rick

fisherdvm
March 30th, 2007, 09:16 AM
It is kinda of sad... AED's can save alot of life, but can cause the LDS alot of headaches too. If we mandated it on dive boats - then the LDS will have to remember to plug it in daily to recharge. They have to change the battery yearly. Replace the adhesive pads yearly. Have the device serviced yearly. And know how to apply it correctly.

The initial investment of $1000 quickly adds up to at least $1500 a year in maintenance, update, etc... With higher gas price, and increased competition, I can see where alot of LDS will balk at a mandate.

Then if you don't do it correctly, you can get sued... I remembered the recent post by an older diver who was angry that some dive boats will not let divers over 50 years of age on board, and likely because they had a lawsuit or worried of a lawsuit over these matters.

At least the ambulances can charge $500 a pop for this kind of stuff. Don't suppose you even get a thank you if you defibrillated someone on a dive... More likely, you would get a lawsuit than a "thank you for saving my life"... Sad isn't it, the american mentality to lay blame on everyone else except themselves.

Rick Murchison
March 30th, 2007, 09:20 AM
... I remembered the recent post by an older diver who was angry that some dive boats will not let divers over 50 years of age on board, and likely because they had a lawsuit or worried of a lawsuit over these matters. If they're worried about a lawsuit they'd better not discriminate their customers by age! That's a huge no-no.
Rick

Charlie99
March 30th, 2007, 09:37 AM
If they're worried about a lawsuit they'd better not discriminate their customers by age! That's a huge no-no.
RickTo the best of my knowlege, most of the training agencies do discriminate by age. They treat "being over 50" as a medical condition and require well seasoned individuals to get a medical clearance to dive signed off by an MD.

Maybe the boat Fishdvm referred to had somehow adopted that sort of waiver. Never ran into it myself on a boat, but shortly after getting certified I did go shore diving with a guide that used a Naui training waiver for all of his customers. IIRC, it had a "gotta have a doctor's certificate if over 50" clause. I was a youngster of 49 at the time, so it wasn't an issue.

Charlie Allen

H2Andy
March 30th, 2007, 09:39 AM
better not discriminate their customers by age! That's a huge no-no.



Federal law doesn't extend age protection to customers, only to employees and participants in programs receiving Federal funding.

the various states model their own laws on the Federal law, but i am not aware of any state that has extended age discrimination protection to customers. if any state has, it's probably California.

Charlie99
March 30th, 2007, 09:52 AM
So...just for argument's sake, what's wrong with diving solo at 60 feet with no pony, no deco load and...maybe doing a couple CESA's every ten years?That sort of "risky" diving doesn't take place here on Scubaboard or anywhere else in cyberspace. Oooops. You do your diving in REAL life, making real life decisions as to risk/rewards. :)

Even over in the solo diving forum diving without redundant air isn't admitted to very often.

In real life, however, I'm not willing to haul along the extra tank, particularly for surf entries, so about half my dives are solo single tank dives. Mostly shallower than 40' for the long dives, if down to 90' it is near the beginning of the dive and with low deco load. If my reg were to suddenly explode or fail closed, then I'd have to CESA. Yeah, it's kind of like a lottery in reverse -- depending upon not drawing the rare fatal ticket ---- but that's true with so many things in life. I just try to truly understand the risks and make rational decisions as to whether the rewards are worth it to me.

If you are going to dive solo with no redundant air source, then CESA is a good skill to have. So far I've never done one for real, but did do a practice one from 90'. Much easier than I expected, PROVIDED YOU JUST LEAVE THE AIRWAY OPEN AND LET AIR BUBBLE OUT ON ITS OWN RATHER THAN FORCEFULLY EXHALING BY HUMMING OR GOING AAAAH.

Charlie Allen

fire_diver
March 30th, 2007, 09:52 AM
It is kinda of sad... AED's can save alot of life, but can cause the LDS alot of headaches too. If we mandated it on dive boats - then the LDS will have to remember to plug it in daily to recharge. They have to change the battery yearly. Replace the adhesive pads yearly. Have the device serviced yearly. And know how to apply it correctly.

The initial investment of $1000 quickly adds up to at least $1500 a year in maintenance, update, etc... With higher gas price, and increased competition, I can see where alot of LDS will balk at a mandate.

Then if you don't do it correctly, you can get sued... I remembered the recent post by an older diver who was angry that some dive boats will not let divers over 50 years of age on board, and likely because they had a lawsuit or worried of a lawsuit over these matters.

At least the ambulances can charge $500 a pop for this kind of stuff. Don't suppose you even get a thank you if you defibrillated someone on a dive... More likely, you would get a lawsuit than a "thank you for saving my life"... Sad isn't it, the american mentality to lay blame on everyone else except themselves.


You couldn't be more wrong. You must have the 20 year old AEDs stuck in your head. Modern AEDs are small, portable, and require basically nothing. The batteries last for years, the pads are good for just as long, and they never need "testing" They have an LED readout. All you have to do look at them to see if it's operational or needs attention.

Comrade Stroke

Thalassamania
March 30th, 2007, 10:17 AM
You couldn't be more wrong. You must have the 20 year old AEDs stuck in your head. Modern AEDs are small, portable, and require basically nothing. The batteries last for years, the pads are good for just as long, and they never need "testing" They have an LED readout. All you have top do look at them to see if it's operational or needs attention.

Comrade StrokeHow much do they cost?

fisherdvm
March 30th, 2007, 10:18 AM
You couldn't be more wrong. You must have the 20 year old AEDs stuck in your head. Modern AEDs are small, portable, and require basically nothing. The batteries last for years, the pads are good for just as long, and they never need "testing" They have an LED readout. All you have top do look at them to see if it's operational or needs attention.

Comrade Stroke

You are correct. I guess most modern AED are self testing, and are maintenance free. Except you have to check and make sure that they are OK and the battery doesn't need to be replaced. I guess that most are guaranteed for 5 to 7 years from date of purchase.

Perhaps you can tell me, do you need a constant power source plugged in to keep them charged, or can you leave them on the dive boat unplugged for extended duration of time.

I know that with my office defibrillators, we are supposed to get them checked yearly... Probably just for the sake of safety, as they too have internal self test.

fisherdvm
March 30th, 2007, 10:34 AM
I answered my own question. Some AED batteries are precharged, and have a shelf life of up to 10 years when not used on stand by. When placed inside an AED, their life is decreased, but they said you can expect up to 5 years.

Wow, that's alot less headache than my stupid defibrillators. I think I'll just save some money by buying an AED and not have to worry about checking it or testing it.

Thalassamania
March 30th, 2007, 10:36 AM
I answered my own question. Some AED batteries are precharged, and have a shelf life of up to 10 years when not used on stand by. When placed inside an AED, their life is decreased, but they said you can expect up to 5 years.

Wow, that's alot less headache than my stupid defibrillators. I think I'll just save some money by buying an AED and not have to worry about checking it or testing it.Send me your old ones.:D Or donate them to your favorite dive boats.

String
March 30th, 2007, 10:37 AM
None of the modern EADs ive found require that much house keeping. Most ive seen dont require a constant power source (but without one you need to check the battery more often).

Even boats provide electricity in 12v/24v form and can easily be adapted to trickle charge an EAD when the boat is running.

fisherdvm
March 30th, 2007, 10:39 AM
Send me your old ones.:D Or donate them to your favorite dive boats.

Unfortunately, they'll have to be ACLS certified to use it...

Refurbished AED are running about $800 with a 2 year warrantee.... Anyone can use it.

fire_diver
March 30th, 2007, 10:39 AM
The ones we carry don't need anything. We look at them every morning to ensure that it still reads "OK". We've had these for at least 3 years now. No plugging in. They sit in our jump bags on all the engines.

As to cost, I don't know for sure. I *think* they are a couple grand a piece. They might be less. I see the same models in malls and office buildings, so I don't think the cost is too far out there. I think if I was carrying one in a marine environment, I would have it a clear plastice box with some desicant.

As for using on a fibrillating diver, I bet everyone gets a jolt. Too much salt water everywhere.

Comrade Stroke

fire_diver
March 30th, 2007, 10:43 AM
Wow, that's alot less headache than my stupid defibrillators. I think I'll just save some money by buying an AED and not have to worry about checking it or testing it.

Thats like our old ones. We had to have 2 batteries for each AED. One charging always. We had to run a manual test and swap batteries every morning. Real pain in the keister.

They were mounted in what I swear were re-painted GI ammo cans. :shakehead

Comrade

Thalassamania
March 30th, 2007, 10:48 AM
If they're under a kilobuck I'll buy one tomorrow and find a clear case for it.

bikinibottom
March 30th, 2007, 11:11 AM
OK, I'm a NOOB to diving, so I will preface this by saying that "I don't even know all of the things that I don't know yet"....

However, I personally live my life in accordance to two philosophies....

#1 - "Murphy has a law for a reason." Chyte happens, and with some people, quite often. And since I know this, I want to have all of my bases covered because Murphy likes to hang out at my heels quite often. I want to know how to do a CESA. Mostly because as a new diver, I don't know how fast or how slow I'm ascending, nor do I know (for fact) that a lung-full of air can get me to the surface if need be without actually performing this task. I know that I know absolutely nothing, and I readily admit it. Oh, my instructor can tell me something all day long, but I like to pretend I'm from Missouri - show me, prove it to me. This is how I learn, period. Nothing with me is taken on strict faith. And since I don't have gills, nor can I ever COMPLETELY depend on ANYONE else to be there when needed, I want to know how I can save my own skin & do so as safely as possible.

#2 - "When you know better, you do better." I know that I know nothing at this point as I've been certified OW for a whopping 5 days. But I do know that you have to learn how to crawl before you learn how to walk. Once you learn how to walk, there is little to no use for crawling anymore. But that doesn't mean you didn't NEED to learn how to do it, nor do you forget how to do so. I'm at the crawling stage of diving right now, which means that I'm learning how to control my bouyancy, my speed, my depth, everything. Tis far better CESA to be ingrained into my mind at this point, IMHO, than for me to freak out and drown or die because I'm a moronic NOOB and screwed up somehow. Once I learn to control my bouyancy, breathing, speed, etc there may be little or no use for a CESA in my diving future. Until then, I want a back up plan (for whatever reason), because I want to come home to my family at the end of dive...and not in a body bag.

String
March 30th, 2007, 11:17 AM
T
As for using on a fibrillating diver, I bet everyone gets a jolt. Too much salt water everywhere.

Comrade Stroke

Not really. There are things to consider but as long as some precautions taken its not an issue.

djanni
March 30th, 2007, 11:21 AM
Rick: Thanks for the original post. It is thought provoking and well worth the read.

I don't understand why some people want to argue that its not possible to have control of yourself in an emergency.

Oh well, to each their own.

fisherdvm
March 30th, 2007, 11:42 AM
If they're under a kilobuck I'll buy one tomorrow and find a clear case for it.

I am getting a quote for 2 refurbished units for under $600 a piece. They are not meant for untrained individuals, because they were intended for health care folks. They are called semi-automatic,and will print an EKG strip too..

An idiot proof version is $800 on ebay.

Lehmann108
March 30th, 2007, 11:55 AM
Rick: Sure you were not surprised. The folks who think CESA is not necessary and their "teams" etc are the answer will continue to post the same stuff over and over.

I've done 3-4 CESA's over the past 35 years. Glad that I had practiced. As you pointed out in your OP, it is just one more tool. Nothing more complicated than that.

Exactly. Over the years I've collected some very specialized tools that I've only used a couple of times. They sit quietly in my tool box until I need them. And when I need them its great to have them. Why would I throw them out?

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 12:08 PM
Even over in the solo diving forum diving without redundant air isn't admitted to very often.

In real life, however, I'm not willing to haul along the extra tank, particularly for surf entries,

yea, there is some diving that requires more agility and many don't get it. I imagine strong fast downdrafts on a wall hauling several cylinders... or trying to time the sets and get past the surf zone in steel doubles and all that redundant gear? It's apples and oranges....

My good friend has an AED on the Elesium, I gave him a yoga mat last night cause last time they used it...they were wanting a rubber mat.

The one Alex has is a Phillips and has Lithium batteries that last three years, supposedly. He paid 1,800 dollars for it.

Personally, I think people should worry about getting one for their house first, rather than worrying about it on a dive boat, but I give him lots of credit for the good faith.

If I was a jury member and I heard he had dished out that kind of cash (and no other commercial boat here has), that would weigh in with me.

He exceeds the community standard. PADI still suspended his Master Instructor for not doing the paperwork correctly even though the client's Instructor made a full report and he spent hours with the Coast Guard.

We really expect too much from these guys, if you ask me. It sticks in my crawl that he got eleven divers out of the water, ran CPR, used the AED, and got the guy to the dock in 11 minutes...no extra points for excellence and heroics these days. It's all about the status quo and CYA.

PADI lost a few more points with me on that one.

String
March 30th, 2007, 12:43 PM
isn't this the same one where the person then failed to submit any paperwork following the incident ?

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 12:45 PM
sigh...yes.

so flog him. Meanwhile, if I arrest at sea, I'll take Alex.

between the Coast Guard and PADI, there sure are a lot of people with ideas and regulations for the Indians.

I wish they could ask themselves the question "how can we actually help?" Nobody cares if the guy actually lives, they just all care about their paperwork. Same thing when a diver died on my kid's boat. They sat there for 12 hours for drug testing and paperwork. Meanwhile, the USCG couldn't tell the parent's one reassuring word. Escapes imagination.

Tell me, how many man hours of "reports" is reasonable after an incident?

(you were wrong about the EPIRB thing too, Sting. The Coasties said they want people to use them, and that they save thousands of dollars on search and recovery)...even little solo boaters like me. So..I will summon "the whole Navy" thank you.

You sometimes don't know what you are talking about.

But, at least I have you to argue with. :D

Thalassamania
March 30th, 2007, 12:54 PM
(you were wrong about the EPIRB thing too, Sting. The Coasties said they want people to use them, ...That's not what the Coasties tell us ugly hairy guys.:D

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 12:59 PM
very funny.
...I hope they don't have my beacon on the black, "do not respond" list.

Thalassamania
March 30th, 2007, 01:03 PM
I'm sure that they have your beacon on the "all hands" list.

mikerault
March 30th, 2007, 01:06 PM
The one time I did a limited CESA was when my regulator got pulled from my mouth and somehow got jammed behind the tank (still don't know why I couldn't find it) I grabbed my Octo, a combined fill/octo, and started to breath, only to get mostly water and some air mixed, even after purging. I did a controlled assent gasping on the octo.

My buddies had swum on ahead and I really didn't have time to catch them and use their octo while I sorted things out. I don't think people realize most of the time that the OOA condition is going to occur after a full exhale, not when you have a nice full set of lungs.

Anyway, after a few hard turns on the surface the regulator came free and I was able to resume the dive. I have since bought a regular octo for that rig.

Mike

Cacia
March 30th, 2007, 01:16 PM
I don't think people realize most of the time that the OOA condition is going to occur after a full exhale, not when you have a nice full set of lungs.


excellent point. Ascending a bit feels good!

Thalassamania
March 30th, 2007, 01:22 PM
Yeah, whens the last time you discovered you couldn't get any air while exhaling?

nymbus
March 30th, 2007, 01:23 PM
Funny enough... I got to do this in the pool during a session last night. The students of one class were actually practicing the CESA across the bottom of the pool, getting the basics down before we brought them up the line in open water. Strangely enough, (and this is nothing I have ever seen or experienced in 5 years of teaching,) all of a sudden there was a great rush of bubbles coming from my tank. I took a cautious breath, assuming that it was a burst disk or some other such thing, and got nothing but water through my primary. Being a grand 12 feet under, I reached for my octo, which was also full of water, and decided that perhaps it was time to do a real CESA and figure out what the heavens was going on.
On the surface, I quickly unclipped and realized that the hose on my primary had COMPLETELY torn off, allowing water into the first stage, which then drained into the rest of the hoses. Odd. (Better me than one of the students...)
Good times. Anyway... some skills are good to have, not because you'd ever want to use them, but because you might someday be in a wierd circumstance that you might end up using them.

(Perhaps I'll post a different post with pictures of the reg later...)

limeyx
March 30th, 2007, 01:29 PM
I see this thread has outlived its usefulness...
Rick :)

Agreed. it will always be possible to come up with a "million to one" situation where so much stuff goes wrong that you cannot possibly plan for it.

Sometimes it just isn't your day and you are in the "OMG" category.

limeyx
March 30th, 2007, 01:31 PM
Or better, non-inhaling, non-breath holding, exhaling bolt and pray.

To rip off somebody else's quote "Controlled Emergency Screaming Ascent" :)

Diveral
March 31st, 2007, 02:34 AM
To rip off somebody else's quote "Controlled Emergency Screaming Ascent" :)

That's funny. I find that screaming ohhh! sh_____t while I'm coming up keeps the airway nice and open. Most people forget that closing the airway while under water is the natural human reflex. It's as natural as the gag reflex. It takes awareness and training to keep it open when you are going against the reflex. When you are task loaded in an emergency and performing a CESA is not the time to be trying to figure it out. There's a difference in reading about it or watching that 15 second caution statement on the DVD and actually practicing it. If that statement in the book or video is all that you know when you find yourself in that rare situation where you are attempting it 5 to 10 years later, thats not good.

It's funny you've got the old timers like Rick, Thalassamania, and Dr. Bill, the immediate following generation that they taught which includes me, and the solo divers all strongly believing that CESA is a valid tool in the scuba kit. That is a lot of water over the fins right there. I've practiced multiple CESA's. I've done it from 92 feet. I know that for me it's no sweat from 60 feet. That's why I don't wear a pony while soloing in the quarry's or the Keys or the Bahamas. I can CESA if the shyte hits the fan. But I'm also a freediver and 30' is an easy depth for me to hit while freediving. If I've got a friend diving then I've been know to take a hit or two off of the octopus to extend my freedive or get more depth. You do that you got to keep that airway open on the way up. Something we practiced many times in that old YMCA scuba course. So I've practiced these skills many, many times over the years and I know I can do it safely.

If I'm doing a deep wreck penetration then I've got the big tank on, have redundant air, have a lot of redundant gear and am diving with a dependable buddy. When I'm inside the wreck or if I've exited with a deco obligation then CESA is not a valid option and we plan accordingly. If I find myself in one of those medical situations Rick was talking about then I'm going to take my chances.

If you are diving and you suffer a sudden traumatic injury, say a wayward spear shoots through your femoral artery. This is a survivable injury but you are going to bleed out in about 4 minutes. If you can be on that boat in about 2 minutes and if there is someone there skilled in First Response or basic first aid that can hit that pressure point and treat that bleed then there's a very good chance that you will survive. What's your chance if you take that 6 minute ascent?

fisherdvm
March 31st, 2007, 05:30 AM
"Oh, sh........................................" sounds like a good idea. Can never remember what sylible to use, so I'll remember that when I sh..... my pants.

Now second reason to use "Sh..... ". You really have to try this at home.

Say "aaaaaaaa" till you run out of air with a time piece. Write down how many seconds it took till you run out of air.

Say "Ohsh...i.....i.....t...........", till you run out of air.

The second method allow you to do a much much longer CESA than the first.

fisherdvm
March 31st, 2007, 05:34 AM
http://www.divealive.org/

This is the initiative to save lives in divers by Florida.

The A in alive is for "Air" - return to the surface with at least 500, the NEED TO PRACTICE CESA, and availability of an alternate regulator (your buddy's I hope).

String
March 31st, 2007, 07:44 AM
http://www.divealive.org/

This is the initiative to save lives in divers by Florida.

The A in alive is for "Air" - return to the surface with at least 500, the NEED TO PRACTICE CESA, and availability of an alternate regulator (your buddy's I hope).

If they're pushing bolt and pray over modern day safer and more effective practices they've just lost any respect i might have for them.

People should be pointing out its never needed and simply aborting straight up without breathing is NOT a viable escape plan not encouraging it.

Rick Murchison
March 31st, 2007, 09:47 AM
... aborting straight up without breathing is NOT a viable escape plan ... That is true.
That is also not a Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent (CESA).
Have you read any of this thread? Start with post one.
I have never, ever, ever said anything to suggest you should ascend "without breathing."
You made that up all on your own.
Until you understand how to do a CESA correctly (breathing) you'll never understand the program.
Rick

Diveral
March 31st, 2007, 12:02 PM
"Oh, sh........................................" sounds like a good idea. Can never remember what sylible to use, so I'll remember that when I sh..... my pants.

Now second reason to use "Sh..... ". You really have to try this at home.

Say "aaaaaaaa" till you run out of air with a time piece. Write down how many seconds it took till you run out of air.

Say "Ohsh...i.....i.....t...........", till you run out of air.

The second method allow you to do a much much longer CESA than the first.

I like it! A true technical analysis and I just tried it and you are right. That syllable uses less air and you can sustain it longer. That may be the reason that 92 footer was successful when most of my deeper practice runs were from 32 to 60 feet. That was what I was saying on the way up.:D

Anyone who is saying that there is never ever a legitimate valid reason for a CESA with modern diving techniques is selling pie in the sky. I agree that modern techniques and good buddy skills can eliminate most of the reasons for ever considering a CESA but its not going to eliminate everyone of them. You are always going to have that one outlier that going to toss a spanner in the works. It may never happen to you but it's going to happen to someone, sometime, somewhere, and a CESA is going to provide the best chance for survival. Also CESA needs to be in the solo diver toolkit. If you are solo diving that is your ultimate bail out bottle unless you have grown gills.

Now I've borrowed some of the DIR techniques and philosophy for my deep wreck penetrations and I'll admit that it has made me a better and safer wreck diver. Maybe some of you DIR guys can admit that there may be some validity in some of the stuff us solo divers are saying for situations that are outside your envelope.

Peace,
AL

TeddyDiver
March 31st, 2007, 12:23 PM
I didn't read the whole thread throw so please forgive me if this have been mentioned before.
One more reason to cope CESA or ESA is when your buddy suffers a trauma, maybe one Rick stated in the original post and freeks out whiping your regs etc. There's just enough to do holding the victim, his/her reg in place etc while ascending that trying to recover your own reg is not on the top of priority.

Another thing about the CESA, ESA whatevernameweuse is that during the emergency ascend situations can change, and so can we change from one method to more propriate one...

String
March 31st, 2007, 12:49 PM
That is true.
That is also not a Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent (CESA).
Have you read any of this thread? Start with post one.
I have never, ever, ever said anything to suggest you should ascend "without breathing."
You made that up all on your own.
Until you understand how to do a CESA correctly (breathing) you'll never understand the program.
Rick


Aborting straight up without breathing is by definition a CESA. It means ignoring any chance of air on the bottom, bolting for the surface hoping you keep the rate low and dont run out of breath before you hit the top.

"Breathing" here i mean in and out. Purely out is just blowing not full breathing.

Likewise an ascent while breathing is NOT a cesa. Its just a bog standard normal ascent. Maybe more rapid than normal for whatever reason but its still a normal ascent.

In not one of your scenarios have you put forward a case for ascending while not breathing from the perfectly good tank on your back.

Rick Murchison
March 31st, 2007, 02:04 PM
Aborting straight up without breathing is by definition a CESA.Wrong!
Rick

fire_diver
March 31st, 2007, 02:33 PM
I gotta agree with String on this one. I was trained that a CESA was a "blow and go." There was no breathing, only exhaling as you swam up. If you are still breathing from a reg, how is it an emergency?

Comrade

Edit- this is a quote from my BOW book from SDI.

"If you find yourself in a situation where you run out of air and your buddy is not within a close distance to assist, it's possible to make a safe ascent to the surface without any air......
......To perform an emergency swimming ascent, signal "out of air." Look up, reach up and exhale through your second stage as you swim slowly to the surface"

Thalassamania
March 31st, 2007, 02:38 PM
The original term for a "blow and go" was a "free ascent" it later became an ESE and then a CSE and then a CESA, but that's all really just lawyer speak.

fisherdvm
March 31st, 2007, 03:07 PM
The terminology is getting all messed up. My padi book from 1993 implies that CESA was blow and go. Now my son's ssi book doesn't even talk about it, instead choosing swimming ESA (breathing and ascending), and bouyant ESA (breathing without the weight belt).

If they don't teach him CESA in SSI, I'll have to do it later in our pond.

marcienko
March 31st, 2007, 03:15 PM
Great Post.

Regards


Marcin

Rick Murchison
March 31st, 2007, 08:12 PM
I gotta agree with String on this one. I was trained that a CESA was a "blow and go." There was no breathing, only exhaling as you swam up. If you are still breathing from a reg, how is it an emergency? So the only emergencies that might require a safe, rapid return to the surface involve being out of air?
*** once again, this thread is about Controlled (as in "in control") Emergency (as in "I have an emergency other than OOA), Swimming (as opposed to buoyant) Ascents. If you have someting constructive to contribute to a discussion of this type emergency ascent, please do so. If you want to argue that the only CESA is a C(OOA)ESA then you're in the wrong thread.
Start your own and discuss it there.
Why is this concept so hard for you and String to grasp?
Rick

fast5frog
March 31st, 2007, 08:32 PM
ARGH!!! What is with all the he-mans....{banging head on wall}

D_B
March 31st, 2007, 08:43 PM
kinda makes it hard to hold a serious discussion, doesn't it ... might as well give up until .. umm 2pm west coast time tomorrow :D

fisherdvm
March 31st, 2007, 09:49 PM
So the only emergencies that might require a safe, rapid return to the surface involve being out of air?
*** once again, this thread is about Controlled (as in "in control") Emergency (as in "I have an emergency other than OOA), Swimming (as opposed to buoyant) Ascents. If you have someting constructive to contribute to a discussion of this type emergency ascent, please do so. If you want to argue that the only CESA is a C(OOA)ESA then you're in the wrong thread.
Start your own and discuss it there.
Why is this concept so hard for you and String to grasp?
Rick


I am a stupid man, so I just go by the book:

CESA, page 165, PADI Open Water Manual, 1990.

"""""Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent:

You learned in the Knowledge Development portion of this module that the controlled emergency swimming ascent is one option if your air supply is lost at 30 to 40 feet or less, and your buddy is not close enough to assist with his alternate air source.

Emergency swimming ascent are interesting because you start with air in your lungs, exhale all the way to the surface, and still have air in your lungs when you get there. This is due to the air expanding in your lungs as you ascend. The potential hazard in this technique is a lung-expansion injury, but this is avoided by not holding your breath."""""

This is verbatim. And it agrees with String, who I believe is a PADI instructor.

Thalassamania
March 31st, 2007, 09:50 PM
I am a stupid man, so I just go by the book:

CESA, page 165, PADI Open Water Manual, 1990.

"""""Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent:

You learned in the Knowledge Development portion of this module that the controlled emergency swimming ascent is one option if your air supply is lost at 30 to 40 feet or less, and your buddy is not close enough to assist with his alternate air source.

Emergency swimming ascent are interesting because you start with air in your lungs, exhale all the way to the surface, and still have air in your lungs when you get there. This is due to the air expanding in your lungs as you ascend. The potential hazard in this technique is a lung-expansion injury, but this is avoided by not holding your breath."""""

This is verbatim. And it agrees with String, who I believe is a PADI instructor.PADI does not know what "mastery" is ... why would then know what a CESA is?

in_cavediver
March 31st, 2007, 09:55 PM
I said this earlier in the thread - Its all about stupid terminology. PADI clearly defines CESA as the blow and go variety. But what about the other agencies? It sound like NAUI calls and ESA a CESA unless it a buoyant ascent.

I disagree with Rick about the definition of CESA he used but completely agree with everything else. My only bone to pick on that is if a new diver came along and saw this and got really confused by it. Fortuneately, many souls keeping bringing this up so there is not much chance of it.

fisherdvm
March 31st, 2007, 09:56 PM
SSI, which does not teach CESA, goes as followed:

SSI, Open Water Diver, 2002, pp. 3-30 to 3-35.

"""Ascent procedures:

1. Normal ascent
2. Air sharing ascent
3. Alternate air sharing ascent
4. Emergency Swimming Ascent (ESA) - ..... Keep your second-stage in your mouth, hold your weight system release with the right hand, kick toward the surface, and vent air from the BC to control your ascent, try to maintain a slow ascent rate.

The reason for being poised to ditch weights is that in many accidents the diver successfully reached the surface, only to sink back down the water. .... This leads us to the main objective of the emergency buoyant ascent.

5. Emergency Buoyant Ascent (EBA)

The emergency buoyant ascent is done in the case of a sudden loss of air which requires an immedate return to the surface. To perform the EBA:
a. Keep your second stage in your mouth.
b. Immediately ditch the weight system at depth, using the quick draw method. This provides positive buoyancy, which begins lifting the diver. From depths beyond which the wet suit has lost its buoyancy, a gentle kick will assist the ascnent.
c. Vent air from the lungs by contiously exhaling....."

fisherdvm
March 31st, 2007, 09:59 PM
PADI does not know what "mastery" is ... why would then know what a CESA is?

Unfortunately, when the overwhelming majority uses a word a certain way, it becomes the definition of the word.

Example would be "Cystic acne". The term has stuck for decades, and it does not have true cyst in the majority of the lesions we called cystic. It has only pustules and abcesses.

Other would be "Gay". The original definition has been out of use, and now it carried different connotation.

CESA in the mind of most divers (who are PADI initiated) will be how PADI defined it.

fisherdvm
March 31st, 2007, 10:18 PM
Unfortunately, I can not type all there is in the PADI book, nor the SSI book. They are different, but yet similar.

In PADI - CESA is controlled (meaning not buoyant), and swimming, and is exhaling - as in a true OOA situation. But it is not buoyant CESA, which is the same, except without your weight belt. I guess if it were buoyant, it wouldn't be controlled then right? so we would drop the C from esa, and called BESA??

In SSI - ESA is essentially the same as a normal ascent, except at a faster rate. You are breathing, in out in out, but you are ready to drop your weight if you ran out of air. They do not emphasize the need for saying ahhhhh or continous exhalation. Which I think should be mentioned, especially if your regulator is wet, busted, or failed.

In SSI - EBA is Buoant ESA. They do say to "Vent air from the lungs by continously exhaling". It is not the same as CESA in PADI, because it is BUOYANT CESA.

Personally, I think I would prefer non-buoyant CESA, as PADI teaches. It will minimize the risk of DCS if you are near the surface.

Buoyant CESA might be better if you are deeper, and might be at risk for drowning if you didn't ascent fast enough, or your carbon dioxide load from swimming is to high, and might trigger an inhalation of a wet regulator or when you don't have a regulator at all in your mouth.

Rick Murchison
March 31st, 2007, 10:31 PM
Lessee here... 135 posts ago I posted the following...
Here it is again...

I guess we need to define terms here... when I say "CESA" my emphasis is on "Controlled" and not restricted to "normal" or "out of gas." If I'm reading you right then what I'm calling a "CESA" is called an "ESA" by PADI if you have gas. If that's the case then I'm talking about "ESAs" here, or even "modified ESAs" because I'll accept an ascent rate that's greater than 60FPM for myself. (This is not to advise any of you to do that - if you do you'll die immediately!)
I was raised in the 60/60/60 school... "emergency" connotes something outside that :)
The shift to "buoyant" is made when you make the "I'm not going to make it" decision and you decide your only option is an uncontrolled ascent.
Rick
Rick

fisherdvm
March 31st, 2007, 10:38 PM
Sorry, Rick, I am very narrow minded, I believed that the diving community shared the same text book. It is hard to comprehend the complexity of ESA, BESA, CESA, Mesa, and Yousa...

Too bad we don't all use the same text book, the same standard, and the same curriculum.

It has been a very good and rewarding discussion though... Thanks for your patience to us beginners and inexperience. You have never been rude to me on this board, and I appreciate it.

fire_diver
April 1st, 2007, 12:19 AM
So the only emergencies that might require a safe, rapid return to the surface involve being out of air?
*** once again, this thread is about Controlled (as in "in control") Emergency (as in "I have an emergency other than OOA), Swimming (as opposed to buoyant) Ascents. If you have someting constructive to contribute to a discussion of this type emergency ascent, please do so. If you want to argue that the only CESA is a C(OOA)ESA then you're in the wrong thread.
Start your own and discuss it there.
Why is this concept so hard for you and String to grasp?
Rick

Damn Ricky, who pissed in your Cheerios today? You can hold on to what ever definition of terminology you want. But the fact is, all the training of the last decade have defined a CESA, ESA or whatever version they use as a "blow and go." Yes, you can have emergencies other than OOA, but that only involves swimming or towing a breathing diver to surface. That doesn't fall under the definition of the term. Argue all you want, but find me one, modern, BOW book that defines a CESA the way you explain.

Comrade Stroke

Rick Murchison
April 1st, 2007, 12:35 AM
Damn Ricky, who pissed in your Cheerios today? You can hold on to what ever definition of terminology you want. But the fact is, all the training of the last decade have defined a CESA, ESA or whatever version they use as a "blow and go." Yes, you can have emergencies other than OOA, but that only involves swimming or towing a breathing diver to surface. That doesn't fall under the definition of the term. Argue all you want, but find me one, modern, BOW book that defines a CESA the way you explain.

Comrade Stroke
In post #1 I defined what we were talking about here in this thread - whether that fits the PADI bible I frankly don't care.
In post #35 I said "... what I'm calling a "CESA" is called an "ESA" by PADI if you have gas. If that's the case then I'm talking about "ESAs" here, ..."
Now if that ain't clear enough for you, I give up.
My purpose in starting the thread was to explore situations that would make a controlled emergency swimming ascent that was other than "out-of-gas" prudent. I'm not talking about a "blow and go." You guys aren't interested in discussing that, because you can't accept the term. And there doesn't seem to be any way to discuss the issue with you because of it.
So, it's you pissin' in my Cheerios and wasting space in what should be a thread about ways to handle diving emergencies rather than the restrictive "blow and go" definition of CESA.
What do you want to call a controlled swimming ascent when it is an appropriate way to handle an emergency (NOT OOA)?
How about CEA? Can I use that?
Rick

fire_diver
April 1st, 2007, 01:03 AM
My purpose in starting the thread was to explore situations that would make a controlled emergency swimming ascent that was other than "out-of-gas" prudent. I'm not talking about a "blow and go."

Rick

Well, you DID name the thread CESA- I'll never run low on air. So, there you go. The title started the discussion on CESA.

Maybe you should have titled it, "Emergencies ascents other than OOA"

Becuase, quite frankly, by the time a late-comer reads through an entire thread, the first couple posts are lost. All that remains to be answered to is the last page we read. And the title tends to skew the looking glass.

So, sorry if I ruined your cereal :(

Comrade Stroke

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