Discussion - tech progression....

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Genesis

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Having heard some of the positions of instructors and LDSs around here for technical training, I would like to throw the door open for discussion of progression from "recreational" diving to technical.

Background: AOW and Nitrox, most of my dives are between 80-110'. Most are spearfishing, although there are some "look around" dives. Certified in the last year, but diving a lot - well over 50 logged thus far, and with a "run rate" that looks like somewhere between 100-150 a year, with the real limiting factor being weather to get out. I own my own boat (so I can dive when I want, where I want, subject to having others that want to go)

Goals:

1. Planned deco. Not just a "contingency", but a plan for it and the gear to match.

2. Possible depths beyond 130'. There are a few things I'd like to dive up to 200' around here. Beyond 200' there isn't much that I can think of; I'm not interested in "Doing the Doria". There are, however, some dives that would make really cool spearfishing sites that are just beyond recreational depths (150' or thereabouts) around here.

3. Extended run times, even above 130'. Basically, being able to stay down longer than the "no deco" diving permits, along with its contingent decompression obligation.

4. I MAY want to get overhead training (cavern/cave/wreck penetration) in the future, but that is uncertain. Caves themselves don't have much of a call to me, but then again I've never been in one.

So, starting from a "comfortable in the water, doing 100' profiles on virtually every dive" point, what training - in what order - and with what experience between the steps - would you do to reach the above goals?

I'm agency-independant, but I have no desire to breathe anything with a PO2 of > 1.4, nor do I want to get narced out of my mind. This appears to eliminate PADI/DSAT's "Tech/Rec" program, for example.

(Looking at the "DIR Fundamentals" set of tests for qualification into their tech program, the only one that I don't meet today is that I don't have a "formal" exercise program. I do meet the "dive skills" and "lifestyle requirements" they list. However, I'm not at all sure I want to buy a religion as well as a training program!)

Thoughts?
 
Start with cave training. The equipment is for the most part the same as deep tech. diving. Where cave training makes the biggest impact is your basic skills. The bouyancy, trim and finning. That is the base from which you build everything esle.

Second you spoke of weather being a problem. Well there are no waves in caves. I remember the last time I was in Destin to go out and dive the USS Ozark we had 5 foot wave and red tide. :( Where as caves, I have never seen more than a ripple.

Third you live in Florida! You really need to know how to dive caves. When you can't dive the gulf, dive the caves.

I short, with 50 dives, I would work on being a good dive first. The cave training will help greatly. Then work at the knowledge that will allow you to go deep.

Lastly, (not tring to start something) check out what the folks at GUE have to offer in High Springs.


Kevin Jones
 
is a long way from here.

And I don't want to buy a religion. Even though I currently dive a long hose, backplate and wing, I don't do it to have some "label". I do it because it makes sense to me and is more comfortable, even in open water.

Doing the Cavern/Cave route is possible here; there is a cave system within a couple of hours from my home....

Anyone else wanna chime in? :)
 
Genesis once bubbled...
[B}...And I don't want to buy a religion...[/B]

I will just say that it ain't my religion....there is something in the Big Book about false idols.

If you talk directly to the GUE group, as I have done recently, you don't get the same vibes you do from the Internet DIR crowd. So I would recommend giving it some thought (disclaimer: I haven't taken any GUE training as of yet.) MHK or chickdiver on the board might be a good starting point.

If you choose to go with another agency I think you can receive wonderful training as well. As usual alot has to do with what instructor you choose. This can only be decided by meeting other divers who have been through the training and talking to them and diving with them to see if thier skills look like what you wish to emulate. Also interview instructors to see if thier attitudes instill trust in you.

I am personally planning to persue training through NSS and GUE. I want to be well rounded and my dive buddy just took a NAUI class from a NSS instructor and was impressed with the instuctor (I really trust my buddies judgement). Hey how many GUE instructors list GUE as thier only training agency? I realize that this will produce some redundency but I think I will be a better diver for it.

Good luck on you training.

Chad
 
Genesis once bubbled...
Having heard some of the positions of instructors and LDSs around here for technical training, I would like to throw the door open for discussion of progression from "recreational" diving to technical.

Background: AOW and Nitrox, most of my dives are between 80-110'. Most are spearfishing, although there are some "look around" dives. Certified in the last year, but diving a lot - well over 50 logged thus far, and with a "run rate" that looks like somewhere between 100-150 a year, with the real limiting factor being weather to get out. I own my own boat (so I can dive when I want, where I want, subject to having others that want to go)

Goals:

1. Planned deco. Not just a "contingency", but a plan for it and the gear to match.

2. Possible depths beyond 130'. There are a few things I'd like to dive up to 200' around here. Beyond 200' there isn't much that I can think of; I'm not interested in "Doing the Doria". There are, however, some dives that would make really cool spearfishing sites that are just beyond recreational depths (150' or thereabouts) around here.

3. Extended run times, even above 130'. Basically, being able to stay down longer than the "no deco" diving permits, along with its contingent decompression obligation.

4. I MAY want to get overhead training (cavern/cave/wreck penetration) in the future, but that is uncertain. Caves themselves don't have much of a call to me, but then again I've never been in one.

So, starting from a "comfortable in the water, doing 100' profiles on virtually every dive" point, what training - in what order - and with what experience between the steps - would you do to reach the above goals?

I'm agency-independant, but I have no desire to breathe anything with a PO2 of > 1.4, nor do I want to get narced out of my mind. This appears to eliminate PADI/DSAT's "Tech/Rec" program, for example.

(Looking at the "DIR Fundamentals" set of tests for qualification into their tech program, the only one that I don't meet today is that I don't have a "formal" exercise program. I do meet the "dive skills" and "lifestyle requirements" they list. However, I'm not at all sure I want to buy a religion as well as a training program!)

Thoughts?

for most divers I have met 150 isn't a problem with regards to narcosis as long as you aren't in an overhead enviroment.. warmm clear water seems to have less of an effect than dark cold water which many people report narcosis more prevalent..
for optimum deco you will be using switchpoints that give you a PO2 of 1.6... Don't be afraid of this, for many years 1.6 was used as a bottom gas without any confirmed incidence (there is 1 opossible case but that person also had a history of seizures).

Personally if I'm getting gas for a dive to 150 I'll use a light tri-mix, but if all I have is an air diluent available I don't have a problem doing that depth, deeper than 160 I'm always on mix Unless He is not available, then my max depending on condtions would be between 180-220.. On my loacl diving conditions 160 is definately my max now, in truk I was doing 220, most warm water dives 180-200 is my normal limit if I cant get mix.

The agency is of second concern the instructor is what is important.. Some agencies may make it easier to find a good instrutor, but what it boils down to is the instructor.. He is the one conveying his/her knowledge and assisting you in your skill development..

The number of students an instructor certifies is not important, hwt you want to do is find an instructor that routinely does the types of dives you want to do.. there are too many instructors out there that the only technical dives they do are with students (and these are generally going to be the easiest dives)
 
Having taken both GUE Cave I and DIRF, I’d suggest you take the DIRF class first. Stop harping on “religion”. Religion requires faith, and there’s NO faith in the DIRF class. You’re clearly told the reason for everything you’re doing.

If you’re as hostile toward GUE after the class as you are now, you can use the excellent skills you learned in the class and apply them to any other agency you decide to continue with; you’ll be way ahead of the game under any other agency. It’s your call, but if you’re interested in a technical track, to NOT take DIRF as your first step is a serious mistake.

Roak
 
How could I not chime in on this one. In "technical"diving there are two things that I think are extremly important. SKILLS and ATTITUDE.

Hopefully you have part of the attitude and your training, experience and instructor can help you develope the rest.

Skills should come before depth. A DIRF is one way to work towards good skills. If the DIRF isn't available or doesn't suit your tasts you still need to find a good instructor who can dive. I think the DIRF is a good start but so is Advanced Nitrox class with the right instructor. Don't let some of the internet folks scare you away from GUE. I think at this point all their instructors are good (their still small). IMO, its a good idea to interview an instructor like you would any other employee. If I ever take another class I will check the instructor out IN THE WATER before beginning a class. However if you decide not to go with GUE it doesn't have to be a serious mistake. The most occomplished divers I know were getting it done before there was a GUE. The trick is to get someone good.

I don't know the limits of tech one so I'll say a couple things about the IANTD progression. The Advanced Nitrox course gets you in doubles, develops skills and doing limited staged decompression dives to 130 on air/nitrox and using up to 50% for deco. I would suggest getting some experience at this level before going further. This is also a good time to get some overhead training. When you want to go deeper you can combine the "Technical Diver course with the "Normoxic Trimix"and avoid ever going past 130 on air.

Go slow. Develope the skills and attitude.
 
My personal opinion is that experience is highly under-rated among people making the transition from recreational to tech diving. I've known many divers that with barely 50 dives under their belt, they think they're ready to be diving at 300 feet on a CCR rebreather, because they think they're perfectly comfortable underwater, and that all they need is some more training to be able to reach their goals.

I didn't move to tech diving until I had about 400 dives under my belt, and a lot of experience diving in different conditions, ranging anywhere from reef diving in the Caribbean to ice diving in some silty Quebec lake. Granted, I generally like to REALLY take my time progressing from one step to the next, and I'm not saying that you need 400 dives to make the move to tech diving. But I think you need to feel "at home" underwater before you start venturing into overhead environments (be it caves or deco diving), because when the $#!@ hits the fan, if you panic (or can't control your panic) while doing that type of diving, your chances for survival are slim.

Don't get me wrong though... obviously the proper training is essential for doing this type of diving safely. My point is, training alone is not sufficient.

As for all the courses and agencies out there... I haven't take the DIRF class (or any GUE class for that matter), but I agree that the most important thing to look for is the quality of the instructor. Things to look for are a good amount of experience (both instructional and personal dives), an up-to-date knowledge of what he/she is teaching, and a good, constructive attitude.

Good luck with your prospective tech diving career.


Josh
 
First, congratulations on putting the time in to really think about how you want to progress in diving.

I'd suggest starting with what I thought would be obvious. Take some sort of a Rescue Diver course. As always, the instructor makes all the difference in the world with this one, so be diligent in finding a thorough course. Tech diving will require you to manage problems for yourself and possibly for your buddy underwater in scenarios where surfacing is not a good option. Your rescue skills should be sharp for any tech diving.

Dry suit. Dry suit. Dry suit. If you aren't diving in a dry suit yet, start. Tech dives can get rather long, and you can get pretty cold when you are fairly warm water for hours on end.

Then, I'd suggest diving. A lot. And then dive some more. Diving is learning at this stage of the game.

An advanced nitrox course such as what IANTD offers could be next. While the information is good, the experience with new equipment and a few basic skills is quite valuable. Whatever step you choose to take, you should start to get adjusted to diving with twins and deco bottles. Advanced nitrox can do this (though it could be taught without the twins) and start you on simple planned decompression dives.

Then go diving. A ton. Even more. And when you think you are ready for the next course... go diving in a new environment. Dive in water colder or warmer than where you normally dive so that you are comfortable with changing buoyancy with changing configurations.

(If you want to do overhead environment work, this is where I would throw in cave or wreck penetration training.)

After that, it may be time to go on mix. Start easy with a normoxic course. And find one primary buddy to learn this with. You need to be on the same wavelength with your buddy, so now is not the time to be diving with whomever shows up on any given day.

Then dive a lot. Go out again. Practice your skills on your dives. Practice various rescue scenarios. Practice your response to any equipment malfunction problem you can think of. Practice. Practice. Practice. Get 30-50 dives in on normoxic before proceeding.

Finally you can look to take on full trimix. By now you should probably have 400+ dives, with 100+ as planned deco dives.
 
1. Getting used to a drysuit, in open water, on recreational dives.

2. Rigging my kit with doubles, and getting used to THAT. Probably HP100s or 120s. Dive them as "two dives for a set" in recreational limits (that is, do two dives with one set of tanks; there'll be more than enough gas to do that. If I do 120s I can probably do THREE if the last is a shallow one)

3. Take stress & rescue. That ought to be fun in a backplate and wing. I suppose I could use my Nighthawk for that (assuming I still own it by then) with my "backup" regulator (so I have the "expected" recreational config :) )

4. By this point I'll have roughly 100 under my belt, between these two. Take advanced Nitrox/staged deco class, using the kit that I am already comfortable with (this adds only stage bottle handling as a task, since I am already comfortable with the dry suit and doubles.)

5. Then some kind of overhead training, probably pretty close to (3) in the progression, perhaps even coincident in time. This will probably be sometime next summer or fall. I may take Cavern somewhere around the time of (2) above, but full penetration (e.g. full cave, etc) would be here.

6. Finally, assuming that I still want to go onward from there, do my Trimix certification. I'd likely have 200-300 dives before I get here, with a bunch of them involving planned deco.

(1) and (2) are things I don't need (much) "formal" training with. I have a pool and access to shallow (0-30' fsw) water right behind my home, so getting the drysuit figured out and being comfortable with it before using it on "real" dives is something I can do for the cost of a few tanks of air. (I know the skills that I need to learn; its a matter of adjusting to the difference in the way you move underwater and practicing them) (2) is not much of a change at all, since I already dive a long hose and bungied backup; the difference there is valve manipulation.

I've developed a general approach to making changes in my diving which essentially comprises making only one change in my diving or kit at a time, and not making another until I'm back to my original comfort level with the one I already made.

I have no idea how long it will take me to get comfortable in a drysuit, or with doubles, for example, so I don't know how many dives I will log achieving those two goals. It may be just a few for those two phases, and it may be quite a few. I suspect the big difference will be the drysuit; the doubles will be more of a PITA before getting in the water rather than once in it. :)

When I get ready do go to and beyond stage (3), that would be the time to have a regular dive partner that would do it with me, I'd think.

Does this make sense?
 
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