How do you make people aware of bad divers?

[Fishfins]

Hello
I am looking for suggesting on how you would approach a situation where, your dive buddy shows consistent bad habits during dives, not to mention breaking safelty rules?
:doctor:

[Dee]

Talk to him. He may not be aware that he has bad habits, or is embarassed to ask for help. Offer to help him improve his skills. If he gets defensive, shows no interest in improving, and/or otherwise refuses to change, just don't dive with him again...and tell him why you refuse to do so.

1. Leave and don't speak to them again ...this accomplishes nothing.

2. Make a website dedicated to their inability to dive ... gimme a break! Does liability and lawsuit mean anything to you?

3. Go to the store they were certified at and raise hell ... they have no control over him after he's certified.

4. Tell them politely ...you best choice

[Ari]

We can all learn from our own mistakes, as well as from other's.

I would go ahead and tell the other diver what I think. His reaction will probably determine where I go from there.

By the way, I try to stay open to criticism myself.

Ari :)

[MNScuba]

I pretty much have to agree with Dee here... Talking with them politely is the best way. If they get defensive or don't change, find a new buddy. Like Dee said, chances are they might not know they're doing something wrong/unsafe.


Dee once bubbled...
Talk to him. He may not be aware that he has bad habits, or is embarassed to ask for help. Offer to help him improve his skills. If he gets defensive, shows no interest in improving, and/or otherwise refuses to change, just don't dive with him again...and tell him why you refuse to do so.

1. Leave and don't speak to them again ...this accomplishes nothing.

2. Make a website dedicated to their inability to dive ... gimme a break! Does liability and lawsuit mean anything to you?

3. Go to the store they were certified at and raise hell ... they have no control over him after he's certified.

4. Tell them politely ...you best choice

[Jarhead]

They can't fix it if they don't know it's broke. But, "polite and tactful are the keys to that lock". If they refuse to try to fix it, then it's time to get a new buddy.

Jarhead

[Jimmy B]

you forgot 5. Take up a collection for a DIR Fundementals course

JB

[cyklon_300]

they get the polite discussion.

Second misdemeanor offense, they get the rude discussion.

Third offense (or felony diving crime), they get de-certified by my Italian business associate, Mr. Vito Stiletto.

[kpauley]

I know! After diving with them you can post a poll about how to tell a bad diver that they need help. When they see it they will think "Hey, could that be me? I did dive with Fishfins recently" :)

[NetDoc]

do not know that they are unsafe. If you have the skills to correct their "issues", offer to do so gently. If you do not possess the patience or the skills, refrain from diving with them and tactfully tell them why. Possibly, getting them to enroll with you in an advanced OW course and then discretely pointing out their dificiencies to your instructor. That way you could help and let a professional help at the same time. The agency for your continued education does not matter nearly as much as the instructor does. I do not believe that any dive philosophy is inherently better than another. However, a perceptive and patient instructor will do wonders for your diving.

[Groundhog246]

Definitely tell them politely (and privately). I've been there, done that. With one, I told him (politely) that I was concerned about his tendancy to fin on ahead without checking that his buddy (me) was keeping up. That particular dive was run at a much higher speed than I normally travel. Our second dive was much better. On another occasion, a buddy made a much faster descent than I can manage (I'm slow to equalize the first 10 to 15 feet) and came back up about 30 seconds later to see where I had got to. When I lost sight of him, I ascended and waited on the surface. After a brief discussion, we had a couple of great dives together. Both of these were much earlier on and I've become a lot better at "dive planning" and making such issues clear with a buddy, before we enter the water. I've also one or two divers, that I have no intention of buddying with again.

If I were to do something "wrong", I would expect my buddy to bring it up for discussion.

Kent

[ElectricZombie]

He probably thinks that he is safe. I would try to talk with him and get him to go practice. If he puts forth the effort to improve, I'll probably dive with him in the future. If he does not seem to care, I'll just flat out tell him that I won't dive with him anymore until he gets serious. If he doesn't like it, tough.

[Arnaud]

How do you tell a guy who

*is dully certified, with 40+ logged dives:
* Doesn't have any sense of orientation
* Does consistently the opposite of what was planned
* Believes that the signal to go up means to rush at the surface at the speed of light (with no safety stop), even though he still has 500 psi in his tank
* Doesn't stay close to his buddy during a night dive
* Keeps on blinding his buddy with his light during said night dive
* Won't swim at the surface because it's harder than swimming UW
* Doesn't realize that kicking his fins in the sand affects the viz

that he should try to improve his diving and that he may be (actually he is) a danger to his buddy? The first time I was polite, the second time I got a little less polite and the third time, I got angry.

Yeah, I know, there shouldn't have been a third time, but I couldn't find a way out (too long story to tell), and the guy is a nice guy.

As you guys pointed it out, there are a lot of "divers" out there that think they're done learning as soon as they get their C card. They completely lack any sort of awareness that they can and have to always improve after getting certified.

I'm going to learn solo diving, because sometimes, it really feels like I'm on my own;-0

[danw2002]

All good ideas, one more that i will do sometimes, is under the guise of me wanting to work on an area this person has a problem with. I just tell him that i would like to work on...what ever is needed.. for me to keep my skills sharp, and then we work on it together....amazing how many times this has worked.
If that does not do it, "the talk" is next ....if that does not, then i dont dive with that person, my bu-- on the line, my choice....and allways remember that when it comes right down to it after it is all said and done, you are a Solo diver....:bonk:

[nitroxbabe]

This is all good advice!

However, I have (and know I will have again!) a situation with a bad diver. I really don't know how the heck I would approach him, or if I even should.

I posted about this guy in another thread about the dumbest things you've seen people do...

I got stuck diving with this guy several times. He's associated with the same LDS and he got pawned off on me & my husband on several occassions. (I don't think anybody else wants to dive with him either).

OK to try to make a long story short, he drinks a LOT the night before, keeping everyone else at the campsite awake, has almost no buoyancy control, actually "runs over" other people UW (and he's a BIG guy), blows all his air out the drysuit, and is generally hapless. I do not understand how he got certified.

I've talked to his instructor about his poor skills & behaviours, but he didn't seem interested in trying to do anything about it. I don't know... any suggestions? Or do you figure somebody like that is on their own???

[Arnaud]

Switch LDS! If they don't care about your problems and have certified someone who did not meet the requirements, they probably will show the same carelessness in other areas.:boom:

[Groundhog246]

nitroxbabe once bubbled...
This is all good advice!

However, I have (and know I will have again!) a situation with a bad diver. I got stuck diving with this guy several times. He's associated with the same LDS and he got pawned off on me & my husband on several occassions. (I don't think anybody else wants to dive with him either).


If that's the way your LDS treats you, than I'd find another LDS. Sounds like you have an LDS, for whom the dollar is king and their bottom line is more important than your bottom time. YOU have the final say on who you dive with. Doesn't sound like someone I'd get in the water with a second time.

Any lawyers at hand. What would an LDS's liability be for pairing you up with an incompetant buddy, fi it contributed to an injury? Such a 'suggestion' might make your LDS take notice. :devil:

[nitroxbabe]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...


If that's the way your LDS treats you, than I'd find another LDS. Sounds like you have an LDS, for whom the dollar is king and their bottom line is more important than your bottom time. YOU have the final say on who you dive with. Doesn't sound like someone I'd get in the water with a second time.

Any lawyers at hand. What would an LDS's liability be for pairing you up with an incompetant buddy, fi it contributed to an injury? Such a 'suggestion' might make your LDS take notice. :devil:

It wasn't the LDS who paired us up, it's just that this guy has shown up on some trips organized by the LDS! We got stuck with him mostly because he didn't have a buddy and we were too nice (or too dumb) to say no.

And no, I won't get in the water with the guy again. I'll find some excuse... I was suckered too much already. ;)

[NetDoc]

the excuse that you want some special time with your husband. After all, that IS the truth, n'est pas?

[nitroxbabe]

NetDoc once bubbled...
the excuse that you want some special time with your husband. After all, that IS the truth, n'est pas?

If I say that, there's no guarantee that we wouldn't be followed around by camera-toting hopefuls!

nudge, nudge - wink, wink

;)

[DiverBuoy]

Put yourself in the other diver's fins, try and imagine their perspective on things.

Be tactful, but do not euphemize, do not be unclear, don't over generalize. Be very specific about the problem(s) observed - this will require you to engage brain before opening mouth.

Remember to establish a common ground. It's hard for someone to take advise from someone who doesn't have a clue about the subject.

Remember their behaviors are learned from many sources cert org, instructors, past role-models and buddys, books, movies, videos, and forums :).

They can be out of practice, or lack experience in the specific environment, weather conditions, or local diving scene.

Be firm, show your own conviction but do it with sincerity, you can tell when a person is being honest with you.

Have the discussion out of ear shot with others. This requires patience, but will give you time to collect your thoughts. Don't wait for the perfect moment though, you must create it. Invite the person to sit down with you in a quite area (if on a boat - use the bow of the boat, a bunk area, a corner of the deck, or a vacant galley if available).

Indicate your interest in them. Do you say these things because you want to continue diving with them, want them to be safer underwater, want them to become better divers, like them, or is it just to show them up?

Define what is unacceptable and what is tolerable (to yourself first, then put it in words that you can express to another) so if the discussion becomes a matter of defining limits, you'll know where you stand.

Old biblical saying "you can't extract the straw in your brother's eye while you have a rafter in your own eye" - goes a long way. Be humble and be preparred to accept council from the one you are counciling. There is nothing like the reaction someone has s when they think they have the upper hand on the counciling and suddenly they are being counciled. In your mind you better be preparred not to thing "Who does he think he is telling me this, HE'S the bad diver!". Because if you think you'd react that way, you will if the situation presents itself. Be teachable yourself, if you expect to teach others.

Before you go in ... remember to separate personal opinion and personal preference from more important things like safety, dive protocol, boat protocol, the law, and envronmental protection etc.

[O-ring]

..

[Arnaud]

I dove with an SSI operation and they won't allow "threesomes". I don't know if the rule comes from SSI or from this particular operation, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

Unless you dive with a DM or instructor, i.e. divers not only with a diving experience, but also the knowledge of tending to the needs of several divers at the same time, the buddy system is meant for 2 divers, not for 3. Who's going to be your buddy if you dive with 2 other people?

So, there's your excuse for the next time...

[mddolson]

I was on a wreck dive near Point Traverse, on Lake Ontario. There were two dive boats on the same wreck.

A couple of novice divers were making their acroos the deck of the wreck, and silting it up pretty bad. A DM from their boat rocketed over to them, grabbed them both and started shaking them!

Well he got their attention ok, then pointed down at the silt cloud, waved his 1st finger side to side (no, no, Bad Boys!) he held up his power inflator and signaled them to trim, and to rise up and cross the deck higher. He didn't demo a frog or wreck kick, though.

I wouldn't recommned this style myself, but he did get his point across.and the divers were more cautious of their finning.

You can't fix it, if you don't know what's broken.

MikeD
:blfish:

[nitroxbabe]

Arnaud once bubbled...
I dove with an SSI operation and they won't allow "threesomes". I don't know if the rule comes from SSI or from this particular operation, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

Unless you dive with a DM or instructor, i.e. divers not only with a diving experience, but also the knowledge of tending to the needs of several divers at the same time, the buddy system is meant for 2 divers, not for 3. Who's going to be your buddy if you dive with 2 other people?

So, there's your excuse for the next time...

Yes, I could definately make this one work. I've dove with outfits that do and don't allow threesomes, and quite honestly I've found 3 is a crowd. Unless everyone stays very close together it can be difficult to keep an eye out for more than one person.

Thanks for the excuse!:D

[Northeastwrecks]

Personally, I like trio teams. However, my trio dives together regularly. We even took DIR-F as a team.

I agree that you need to speak with this individual before he causes an injury. In addition to telling him that you want to dive with your husband, there is nothing wrong with telling him that you have issues with his diving technique and that you are unwilling to buddy with him until his skills improve. Enumerate the areas that need improvement.

Unless you are on staff at your LDS (DM, AI, etc...) and being paid or otherwise compensated for your time, it is not your responsibility to buddy with this guy. Tell the person organizing the trip at the LDS that you don't want to dive with this individual and that they need to find someone else if they don't want this guy diving solo.

Its hard to tell someone that you are not willing to dive with them. However, its harder to tell the next of kin that their loved one won't be coming back. In addition, there is no reason why your dives should be ruined so that the diving disaster can have a buddy.

Besides, if no one will buddy with him, maybe that will convince him to change his evil ways.:)

[sparky30]

I like diving as a foursome... Basically two buddy pairs together.. Everyone has their own buddy, but if you happen to get separated there is always at least 2 extra people there... Besides, if it gets too crowded you and your buddy can always split from the other buddy pair.
I've seen wreck dives in cold water where a number of people had freeflows, and I would say that having extra people around made all the difference.. its sort of a comfort factor.