Tech Instructor & Doubles

[PA/NJdiver]

This past weekend I found out that a TDI instructor I know did not know how to set up a set of doubles. He can teach advance nitrox, stage decompression, trimix and dolphin rebreather, but he didn't know how to set up doubles. I don't understand how he can teach all of these classes but not know how to set up doubles. How common is this?

Stacey

[m&m]

I have seen Deco DIVERS who did not know how to set up thier doubles, but never an INSTRUCTOR.

I don't think that it is a standard for teaching, but it shows to what extent a person manifests a will to find out how baisic equipment is assembled.

I suggest that you find some one to show you (and maybe your instoctor) how to do the job.

sad.

m&m

[MikeFerrara]

incompetance isn't limited to recreational diving.

I spoke to my former trimix instructor today. We are teaching a class together in a couple weeks (well he is doing the teaching). This guy is one who doesn't teach anymore unless students are recommended to him by one of a very few people. The reason is that there are so many who want the card but don't want to learn to dive. They buy an OW card then Advanced then.......trimix and the next you know they are a tech instructor and don't know how to put a set of doubles together.

I know two instructors who teach the SDI solo course. Manifolded or independant doubles are two possible options for redundancy in the class. Neither of these two clowns has ever been in doubles. Neither knows anything about gas management let alone gas management in independants. I would love to see some student go to them for instruction in assembling and using their doubles. What a joke! Someone should be slapped!

[Divesherpa]

That's one of the saddest things I have ever heard. I would recommend not to take classes from someone who doesn't know how to fix, break down, and build doubles. It is not a standard, but is standard for instructors to know how to assemble doubles.

[PA/NJdiver]

Believe me, I have no intention of taking any technical instruction from him. I just wanted to make sure that wasn't the norm out there. It does frighten the heck out of me though. Just like in recreational diving, buyer beware.

Stacey

[Spectre]

PA/NJdiver once bubbled...
Just like in recreational diving, buyer beware.


buyer beware definately... just like recreational diving.... not quite. An incompetent tech instructor is a lot more likely to get you killed than an incompetent recreational diving instructor.

[ericfine50]

Specture,

How true. References are a lot more important when looking into Tech training.

[MikeFerrara]

Spectre once bubbled...


buyer beware definately... just like recreational diving.... not quite. An incompetent tech instructor is a lot more likely to get you killed than an incompetent recreational diving instructor.

I disagree. I think new divers need to be more educated and do some research on who their instructor is and how they really stack up. We do have some lousy tech divers and instructors but it is just a continuation of poor recreational diving and instruction. They are not seperate rather one is just a continuation of the other.

[MechDiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

We do have some lousy tech divers

Mike, What is your defination of "lousy tech diver"?

Phil

[MikeFerrara]

The average "experienced" recreational diver will need much remediation before making a competant technical diver. This remediation isn't built into the course or cost structure of technical training. Students do the dives and get the cards. Nobody is going to put in the time to get them squared away because you can't charge for it. I can't sell Advanced nitrox classes for that reason. With the low skill level of most divers if you want to teach this class right it is a big long job that cost money. What i hear all the time is "But I'm a DM why should the class take so long" Just llike in recreational diving they want the card more than the training.

[chickdiver]

You hit the nail exactly, Mike. I recently had a group request a trimix class. When I forwarded them my course outline and requirements, they caled back and said "We just want to go to 200' on air or something, do we really need to do all this?" I said yes , and explained what they were getting into, they decided to find another instructor. I am sure they will quickly find someone who will be happy to give them exactly what they want, a card.

[MikeFerrara]

MechDiver once bubbled...


Mike, What is your defination of "lousy tech diver"?

Phil

I don't know that I could provide a definition but i will say that some divers come up throught the ranks very fast without having any experience.

there was a guy in my cave class. He had some trouble but not too bad. The instructor let him through and I figured it was his call. Several months later I dived with the guy in a floded mine in Missouri and he almost got me killed. I have posted the story before but he wrapped me in the line and left me with my feet held tight to the ceiling 1/4 mie back in a cave. He never noticed I was gone not even after he turned and was headed out where I should have been in front of him. I was on my own. After the dive he denied having any problems. We untangled him once. We stoped him from going the wrong way at intersections and had him abusing the line to help with buoyancy control. The bc problem was a problem he didn't have in better vis. Several WEEKS later he contacted me telling me about the remainder of his summer. He had since obtained a bunch of certs like Advanced trimix, Advanced wreck, gas blending and you name it. He wanted to get together for another cave dive.

This diver has every card there is but I'll bet I have done more dives in the last year or 18 months than he has done in his entire career. Do you think he has ever put a set of doubles together?

[MikeFerrara]

BTW, i have a normoxic trimix cert. Since I blend my own I use the mix I want but we haven't done anything below 200. Just out of cuiosity I called that guys (from the last post) instructor to see how much and how long it would take to get an "Advanced trimix" card. I can get her done in a short weekend.

In technical and recreational diving cards are for sale.

[roakey]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
This remediation isn't built into the course or cost structure of technical training. Nobody is going to put in the time to get them squared away because you can't charge for it.
GUE is doing a tidy business with their DIRF class because they're the ONLY ones doing this.

Roak

[MikeFerrara]

roakey once bubbled...

GUE is doing a tidy business with their DIRF class because they're the ONLY ones doing this.

Roak

But...they need to take the show on the road. The market is worthwhile but spread very thin.

You are right about one thing Roak they have no competition. I tried talking to IANTD to point that out. I think they will attempt to compete with PADI before GUE. That can't be done. It would take money and muscle to be better at being PADI than PADI. GUE has a complete market all to themself with no competition at all. IMO, it would be a great time for someone else to get into the same business but nobody will.

[Josh Levinson]

To get back to the original point of that tech instructor not knowing how to assemble doubles... aside from the fact that he's an instructor, that's particularly scary, as putting together doubles ain't rocket science.


Josh

[MikeFerrara]

Josh Levinson once bubbled...
To get back to the original point of that tech instructor not knowing how to assemble doubles... aside from the fact that he's an instructor, that's particularly scary, as putting together doubles ain't rocket science.


Josh

It isn't rocket science but it does take a little technique and there is a learning curve. Many just let a shop do it. In my area you would be hard pressed to find a shop that could do it.

My Advanced Nitrox students who use doubles put their own together in class. I had to teach myself.

[MechDiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I don't know that I could provide a definition but i will say that some divers come up throught the ranks very fast without having any experience.
snip

Do you think he has ever put a set of doubles together?

Mike,
Thanks for the clarification and story.

The dealer where I bought my doubles made me put them together myself. Not something I do "lightly", but nice to know how it works.

Phil

[roakey]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
But...they need to take the show on the road. The market is worthwhile but spread very thin.
It is on the road, why do you think that there's almost a weekly announcement about a DIRF class somewhere in the US?

Now, the fact that they don't have many instructors I'll agree with. :)

Roak

[MikeFerrara]

roakey once bubbled...

It is on the road, why do you think that there's almost a weekly announcement about a DIRF class somewhere in the US?

Now, the fact that they don't have many instructors I'll agree with. :)

Roak

My point was that the demand in a given area is small.

[PA/NJdiver]

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention this instructor owns a shop.

Stacey

[caverkevin]

PA/NJdiver once bubbled...
Oh yeah. I forgot to mention this instructor owns a shop.

Stacey

That statement says it all!

My guess is that he want the gear sales that goes along with new tech students. For a small cash fee he found a TDI IT to sign his cards. Now he is a tech Instructor without any experience. This is not an uncommon story. What is even worse is to see the new diver throw money at this type of person.

Kevin Jones

[Josh Levinson]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


It isn't rocket science but it does take a little technique and there is a learning curve. Many just let a shop do it. In my area you would be hard pressed to find a shop that could do it.

My Advanced Nitrox students who use doubles put their own together in class. I had to teach myself.


I didn't mean to suggest that just anyone could (or should) do this without seeing how it's done beforehand, and I didn't mean to suggest it's a piece of cake. What I meant is most serious tech divers I know (instructors and non) know how to put together a set of doubles. I just wanted to express how disturbed I was at the fact that that tech instructor didn't know how to do it.


Josh

[ElectricZombie]

PA/NJdiver once bubbled...
This past weekend I found out that a TDI instructor I know did not know how to set up a set of doubles. He can teach advance nitrox, stage decompression, trimix and dolphin rebreather, but he didn't know how to set up doubles. I don't understand how he can teach all of these classes but not know how to set up doubles. How common is this?

Stacey


Wow, that is very scary. They must be giving out advanced certifications to anyone now. He will probably end up seriously hurting himself or someone else.


Question: If cards can routinely be bought for these certifications by unqualified individuals, have any of the dive shops or charter boats considered not allowing divers with these TDI (or whatever agency) to dive? At least make them do a checkout dive to evaluate them.

[danw2002]

Boy, good tread, and so true.

Some of what I have seen, it almost gets to the point that it seems to be an ego thing, look at all the letters and stuff on my C-card....don’t ya know that it makes me a good diver.....and are you not impressed. Experience, well like ya, I got the stuff on my card, and I did the check out dive(and lived…).
Somewhat like going into a doctors office with all the diplomas on the wall, it is impressive until you read were they are from(places you have never heard of) and then talk to the Doc, and find out he/she does not have a clue(think of a Simpson’s episode)... and please note that was a generalization.

now how do you put those doubles together??? :bonk: :bonk:

[SPACE KASE]

That is sad;-0 I manage a dive shop that does a little tech and as a manager I feel that I should know as much about the gear as I can so I don't get in a situation like that even if we don't sell the product. I should know what the heck people are talking about. All the guy had to do is read the directions for the manifold and bands and maybe post some thing on the board and he would have saved face. :D Even better he could have taken a class on technical diving and asked his instructor about setting a pair up. Maybe he got it on the internet. Is Sally Struthers pushing tech diving at home for the working professional?

[wb416]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


It isn't rocket science but it does take a little technique and there is a learning curve. Many just let a shop do it. In my area you would be hard pressed to find a shop that could do it.

My Advanced Nitrox students who use doubles put their own together in class. I had to teach myself.

Listen... I used to chase electrons for a living, and then I got into software and networking, and my mechanical aptitude isn't the highest... in fact, I might say that I'm below average, but the PDF file from DiveRite is almost a "Doubles for Dummies" whitepaper. I got mine together, so I'm not sure why other's are having an issue.

http://www.diverite.com/resource/start/index.htm

Just follow the bouncing ball.....
wb

[O-ring]

http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/doubles/doubles.htm

[Tegg]

My dive shop also had me put the doubles together.... I think that it should be required of ANYONE who purchases doubles....

[WreckWriter]

O-ring once bubbled...
http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/doubles/doubles.htm

http://www.highland-millwork.com/products/doubleband/anatomy/anatomy.html

[AquaTec]

I would seem to me that training on how to put together doubles usualy taught in a technical dive class would be a prerequisat to owning a set of doubles.

[HIDBOY]

Hello

Beleave me, most Technical divers don't even dive well, its there ability to pass all the exams and fork over the large amount of money to the instructor trainer that gets them there certs and lets face it, if you can pass advanced nitrox and deco procedures the rest is all just dives, speaches. I'm not suprised your instructor didn't know how to hook up doubles, imagine how he would react in an emergency situation at depth. Warning Warning stay clear.

HIDBOY:grrr:

[Rick Murchison]

PA/NJdiver once bubbled...
This past weekend I found out that a TDI instructor I know did not know how to set up a set of doubles. He can teach advance nitrox, stage decompression, trimix and dolphin rebreather, but he didn't know how to set up doubles. I don't understand how he can teach all of these classes but not know how to set up doubles. How common is this?
Stacey
Could you be a bit more precise?
I note with interest the enthusiastic stone throwing you've generated with this post, but "setting up a set of doubles" could mean one or many of a positively vast array of knowledge/procedure. Do you mean assembling a set of doubles from tanks/bands/valves/manifold? Do you mean mounting 'em properly? Hose routing? Post selection? Please share the specific deficiency you're referring to so we can really understand the problem.
Thanks,
Rick

[RiverRat]

Could you be a bit more precise?
I note with interest the enthusiastic stone throwing you've generated with this post, but "setting up a set of doubles" could mean one or many of a positively vast array of knowledge/procedure. Do you mean assembling a set of doubles from tanks/bands/valves/manifold? Do you mean mounting 'em properly? Hose routing? Post selection? Please share the specific deficiency you're referring to so we can really understand the problem.
Thanks,
Rick

Gee....and I was getting ready to pick up a boulder :eyebrow:
I'll hold off.......

[jbd]

Gee....and I was getting ready to pick up a boulder :eyebrow:
I'll hold off.......

Hey RR,
Who ya gonna throw a boulder at :06: This thread is more than a year and a half old ;)

[GDI]

This has become a issue with many of my students. They learn quickly that it is not about the card it's about the training and developing the skills. I don't mind taking the time .

[alemaozinho]

This past weekend I found out that a TDI instructor I know did not know how to set up a set of doubles. He can teach advance nitrox, stage decompression, trimix and dolphin rebreather, but he didn't know how to set up doubles. I don't understand how he can teach all of these classes but not know how to set up doubles. How common is this?

Stacey
i, know an Instructor who,s done all his TDI TEC Instructor Ratings in a Weeks course!!!! Or have a look at the Pro Dive or else Agencies who,s taking a non diver to MSTD with twelve or more Specialties in a couple of months and since they do all the "learning" in the same Facility,an OW Instructor is required to have only 60 dives on his belt to be certified OW Scuba Instructor,if he does all the courses in an IDC career developement center,thats scary ****.Peace ;)

[Curt Bowen]

I'm not getting in the middle of this one again. LOL

[msandler]

This past weekend I found out that a TDI instructor I know did not know how to set up a set of doubles. He can teach advance nitrox, stage decompression, trimix and dolphin rebreather, but he didn't know how to set up doubles. I don't understand how he can teach all of these classes but not know how to set up doubles. How common is this?

Stacey

In the early 90's when TDI was just getting a foothold (in Canada), they were giving away instructor ratings to anyone with any pre-existing instructor rating from any diving agency. Its one way to quickly get exposure/coverage. In itself, perhaps not that unusual, but; I recall seeing some equivalency requisites and it went something like:

if you are a current aow inst. you will be granted TDI Deep Diver, TDI Wreck Diver, TDI ......... Please don't quote me, I am just giving an example. I do NOT recall the actual criteria. Instructor materials can be acquired by anyone.

[RiverRat]

Hey RR,
Who ya gonna throw a boulder at :06: This thread is more than a year and a half old ;)

:11: Crap! I did it again! I did this on another thread and it magically came to life again. I thought I pulled this outta the New Posts list? Wonder if anyone else has done this. Or I gotta stop cruising this thing when it's real late at night....almost like I'm narced.............. :06:
And you see I brought this back from the dead to........

[jbd]

:11: Crap! I did it again! I did this on another thread and it magically came to life again. I thought I pulled this outta the New Posts list? Wonder if anyone else has done this. Or I gotta stop cruising this thing when it's real late at night....almost like I'm narced.............. :06:
And you see I brought this back from the dead to........

From his narcedness River Rat beheld the dead thread and said," This is a good thread, I shall bring it back from the dead" And thus he applied is fingers to the dead thread and at once it was risen from the dead ;)

[roni]

i, know an Instructor who,s done all his TDI TEC Instructor Ratings in a Weeks course!!!! Or have a look at the Pro Dive or else Agencies who,s taking a non diver to MSTD with twelve or more Specialties in a couple of months and since they do all the "learning" in the same Facility,an OW Instructor is required to have only 60 dives on his belt to be certified OW Scuba Instructor,if he does all the courses in an IDC career developement center,thats scary ****.Peace ;)

Correction:
requirement for DM is 60 dives, Instructor 100 dives, and think that 100 dives is to low.

[grazie42]

Couple of months?
It can be done in 6 weeks, from never having been in the water to DM.
Only 3800£...

Just look at this:
Divemaster Fast-track - 6 weeks Egypt Diving, 26 September 2004

http://www.flyingfishonline.com/frames.asp
Go to diving...

[TX101]

Not really wanting to add fuel to a fire that died over a year ago... but:

I'd say "setting up doubles" has about the same about of relevance to technical diving as servicing a 1st stage. Okay, a lot of technical divers can service a 1st stage, but it's not really a pre-requisite to be able to dive a twinset. In-water skills are about a million times more important. Once the doubles are assembled, so long as you know how to take care of them properly what does it matter?

Also, hose routing and gear config is a personal thing and if someone I was diving with didn't have exactly the same hose routing as me, I'm not about to tell him he's going to die.

Now, if by "set up" you mean he didn't know which reg went where .. that's a different problem.

[msandler]

Not really wanting to add fuel to a fire that died over a year ago... but:

I'd say "setting up doubles" has about the same about of relevance to technical diving...

sorry, strongly dissagree. Being competitent in all aspects of gear set-up is IMO crucial for a tech instructor. In this case, any experienced tech diver should know how to set-up and adjust all the components in use for their dives. A proper Tech diving mind-set would have the diver instinctively seeking out this knowledge, skill and comprehension. N'cest pas?

[TX101]

sorry, strongly dissagree. Being competitent in all aspects of gear set-up is IMO crucial for a tech instructor.

Yeah, because let's face it.. when you accidently loose half your deco gas due to a freeflow and you need to readjust your deco schedule while shooting a bag to do drift deco because you have lost the upline due to bad vis, knowing how your doubles go together is important.

[msandler]

as an educator one should be able to offer a students explanations/instruction of relevance. That is a minimum. If you don't mind your instructor not having at least the experience non-instructing technical divers, thats fine by me. I guess it IS less important for an "adv. nitrox" inst. to know certain skills than it is for an inst. who teaches at higher levels.

[TX101]

as an educator one should be able to offer a students explanations/instruction of relevance. That is a minimum. If you don't mind your instructor not having at least the experience non-instructing technical divers, thats fine by me. I guess it IS less important for an "adv. nitrox" inst. to know certain skills than it is for an inst. who teaches at higher levels.

Are you picking on my qualifications?




All I'm saying is:
------------
If I had to make a list (in order of importance) of skills I deem important to a technical diver, how to assemble doubles would be WAY down the list, right near the bottom.
------------



What I think you're saying is that skill in assembling doubles is an indication of how good an instructor is. What I'm saying is that let's forget indications and lets assess the instructor in the water.

[MikeFerrara]

Not really wanting to add fuel to a fire that died over a year ago... but:

I'd say "setting up doubles" has about the same about of relevance to technical diving as servicing a 1st stage. Okay, a lot of technical divers can service a 1st stage, but it's not really a pre-requisite to be able to dive a twinset. In-water skills are about a million times more important. Once the doubles are assembled, so long as you know how to take care of them properly what does it matter?

Also, hose routing and gear config is a personal thing and if someone I was diving with didn't have exactly the same hose routing as me, I'm not about to tell him he's going to die.

Now, if by "set up" you mean he didn't know which reg went where .. that's a different problem.

Being able to assemble a set of doubles may not be ver important once you get in the water but around here (and in a lot of other places) you aren't going to start a technical dive if you can't slap a set of doubles together because there sure isn't any shops that can do it for you.

I'd be very suspicious of any tech instructor who couldn't assemble doubles, service a reg and mix gas. There's a good chance that it means they just haven't done much technical diving.

I don't even know many technical divers who could afford to have some one service all their tanks, regs and mix their gas. I could just about buy a new car with what that would cost for a years service. LOL

[cancun mark]

------------
If I had to make a list (in order of importance) of skills I deem important to a technical diver, how to assemble doubles would be WAY down the list, right near the bottom.
------------


Yup, I guess it is usefull to know, but its not really a thing you need to do on a regular basis.
.

[msandler]

Are you picking on my qualifications?


absolutely not! You may be an exceptional diver with thousands of dives. I don't know your qualifications, one would be stupid to pass judgement soley on cert level. But primarily, I have not dove with you. Many divers and instructors alike have advanced certifications but have no business in the water. I am merely suggesting (since the original poster never qualified the instructor level) that it may be permissable for an inst. to not be capable of a skill set that is not required for the course goal. We do however, know this particular guy is a TDI instructor. Personally, I have seen to many instructors who don't know squat and unfortunately pass bad and even dangerous info and habits to their students.

[yammy]

TDI Japan can make any diver to TDI Cave instructor.

TDI cavern & Intro cave ITC was held with a schedule of January 22-26, 2004 in Okinawa Kume Island.
The cold came in within the period of time, and a cold north wind blew.
A course was finished safely by the cooperation of the persons concerned in local diving.
Auspices : TDI JAPAN
Supervision : Norio Sato
CourseDirector : Kenji Yasuhara
Assistant : Yoshimi Takano
Cooperation : Hidemitsu Tomori, Kashida Junpei
Course successful candidate : Jun Sagawa, Msaji Nshiya, Takayuki Yamamoto, Koichi Tahara

[Kim]

TDI Japan can make any diver to TDI Cave instructor.

TDI cavern & Intro cave ITC was held with a schedule of January 22-26, 2004 in Okinawa Kume Island.
The cold came in within the period of time, and a cold north wind blew.
A course was finished safely by the cooperation of the persons concerned in local diving.
Auspices : TDI JAPAN
Supervision : Norio Sato
CourseDirector : Kenji Yasuhara
Assistant : Yoshimi Takano
Cooperation : Hidemitsu Tomori, Kashida Junpei
Course successful candidate : Jun Sagawa, Msaji Nshiya, Takayuki Yamamoto, Koichi Tahara
That's just plain scary!:11:

[yammy]

Koichi Tahara was certified TDI Cavern Diver from Yoshimi Takano at 3rd October 2003.

Koichi Tahara participated in ITC after 110 days. :dazzler1:

[jagfish]

Helped put three sets of doubles together last week (first time for me).

first set took like an hour, then the next two took less than 20 minutes each. Just could not get the threads started on the first manifold. Don't know what the deal was, the next two were in like Flynn...

[yammy]

:eyebrow: Koichi Tahara became TDI Trimix instructor at 3rd July, too.

[rescuediver009]

Although it requires absolutely minimal intelligence to set them up, it may seem daunting to someone who is not associated with retail or service end of diving. For all you know he may have just dropped them at the shop every year and they did the rest. It does seem kinda dumb though.

[yammy]

Koichi Tahara was mere just NAUI instructor and Non-Tech diver before three years.

But,Now...... :eyebrow:
He is certified TDI Intor Cave Instructor.
He was certified TDI Trimix instructor at 3rd July 2004.
He is certified IANTD Advanced EANx Instructor Trainer.
He is certified IANTD Inspiration instructor.

[jagfish]

Koichi Tahara was mere just NAUI instructor and Non-Tech diver before three years.

But,Now...... :eyebrow:
He is certified TDI Intor Cave Instructor.
He was certified TDI Trimix instructor at 3rd July 2004.
He is certified IANTD Advanced EANx Instructor Trainer.
He is certified IANTD Inspiration instructor.

Hey Yammy
What's the deal with your Koichi banners? I can't tell if you are honestly lauding him or sarcastically bashing him. :eyebrow:

What part of Japan is Koichi based in?

[yammy]

Jagfish
I don't know what you think of in the doubt. :06:

I am insisting that a wonderful instructor is in Japan as well.
Tahara is a famous writer in Japan.
Don't you know Tahara? :06:

[jagfish]

Jagfish
I don't know what you think of in the doubt. :06:

I am insisting that a wonderful instructor is in Japan as well.
Tahara is a famous writer in Japan.
Don't you know Tahara? :06:

I'm sorry to say I do not know him, but I am even more sorry to say that I am not a reader of Japanese. So, if he writes in Kanji, I would have no chance.

[yammy]

Hi Jagfish
OK, you don't know Koichi Tahara.
It's no problem.

Do you know TDI Intro to Cave Instructor's Pre-Requisites? :06:
That is a very high level to be certified it in just three months.

But, Tahara could do it. :crafty:

[yammy]

A OW instructor can become technical IT in Japan.
Mr. Tahara is that one person.

[akioMtFuji]

I know the Japanese branch problem in detail.
The truth is very poor.
The truth is more terrible things.
Two victims dropped their life by the problem.

But, it is the story which it often has on the business.
Our life is more important than others' life.
No one saves a other's life at the cost of my life.
We are not God, we are human.

However, I can't sacrifice my students for money.
I will not look like them.
And my dive experience don't need to look like them.

Send mail to me if you don't want to increase victims.
I tell a fact.

[firemedic1015]

I cant believe this thing was brought back after 2 years dead and gone.:11: :11: :11:

[ppo2_diver]

Holy old thread resurrection Batman!!!!

[akioMtFuji]

Holy old thread resurrection Batman!!!!

I didn't notice it with the old thread.
I came from Japanese board to this thread.
That writing day was today.

2006/12/09(土) (Japan time)