Long Hose on Primary or Octo?

[Dr. Jay]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I was just wondering which hose is the standard (I guess the DIR) for attaching the 7ft+ hose...your second stage or the octo?

I was hoping to shoot down the right path for tech diving in the future and I wanted to know what's being taught before I start looking at prices and such.

I've heard conflicting things from different people on the board, as well as what shops and such call a "7ft hose for your 2nd stage" and the same hose is also called a "7ft hose for your octo"...I'm soo confused :question:

[nickjb]

There are two factors here. The long hose and primary second stage donation.

You can do either one or both or neither.

The DIR way is to have long hose on your primary second stage and this is the reg you donate to an out of air buddy (or stranger). You then revert to your 'back-up' reg that is on a short hose.

If you don't want to doante your primary (this has been discussed once or twice) then putting a long hose on your octo will give your out of air buddy more room to move. One problem is storing the reg after you have finished air sharing.

The long hose is of particular benefit in caves and wrecks. You don't need a long hose for open water diving (even if you are DIR) but it does make air sharing easier.

You don't need to donate your primary but there are a lot of benefits.

Personally I have a 7ft hose on my primary reg and this is the reg I plan to donate.

Hope this helps

[Bob3]

A not often mentioned benefit of a long hose on the primary is that it may allow warming of the air by as much as 20°f, something to think about if diving in chilly water.

[Wreck/Tec]

I agree with Nickjb to a point. I have a long hose on all my recreational reg set ups as well as the Tech set ups. OOA situations are the same and having it as opposed to wanting it is preferred. I didn't know about the air warming though. You'll have to make your own mind up.
Wreck/Tec

[Rick Murchison]

I prefer identical second stages for both primary and backup regulators. When using a 7' hose I breathe it.
Rick

[chickdiver]

My procedure is the same as R. Murchison's. I run a decent performing second stage for both regs. The idea of having a crummy secondary second stage is from left field. If you were in an OOA situation, and your buddy donated a reg to you that breathed poorly, thus adding to your stress level, how woulld you feel about it? Just something to consider.

[Epinephelus]

chickdiver once bubbled...
My procedure is the same as R. Murchison's.
Ditto
E. itajara

[Dr. Jay]

That's part of the reason why I originally went w/an octo in-line w/the inflator hose (which I will probably get rid of as time goes on). Most of the cave divers and experienced divers and such I talked to said your buddy normally goes for your primary anyway. Fortunately, I haven't been in that situation yet.

Along those lines, how do you normally deal with the extra "hos-age" on your primary? Do you use a swivel and tuck it under your arm?

Thanks for your replies :D

[chickdiver]

No swivel it's another failure point. This is most comfortable with a 5 or 7 foot hose. route the hose down the right side of your body, if you use a canister light, loop it under the light, bringing the hose across the body, over your left shoulder and behind your neck into the mouth. If you dont use a canister, the 5' is most manageable, and you can tuck any excess hose into your waist strap.

[Dryglove]

Check out theses sites.They might help.

http://www.dis-uk.org/gallery.htm
http://www.northeastdir.com/gearpage1.htm
http://www.scu.edu.au/schools/rsm/staff/pages/shartley/projects/gear/
http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Gear/equip_moreimages.htm

[joens]

identical 2nd stages for both primary and backup.breathe the long hose, properly routed the long hose is more comfortable than any other setup.
joens

[Padipro]

nickjb once bubbled...
The long hose is of particular benefit in caves and wrecks. You don't need a long hose for open water diving (even if you are DIR) but it does make air sharing easier.

I have to disagree with you somewhat here Nick. IMHO, in certain situations the long hose is a great benefit in the open water enviornment. After diving here in South Florida and experiencing the strong currents that are common here I switched to breathing the long hose instead of using a standard setup. My thinking on this was that if I had to do OOA ascent from, lets say, 80 feet in a 2 knot current all the way up the anchor line, and make a safty stop at 15 ft, it sure would be alot easyer to do if I had a 7 ft hose on my primary and gave it to the OOA diver. There would be far less chance of pulling the regulator out of their mouth and causing them to panic as well as being alot easyer for both of us to make the ascent side by side instead of face to face as you would have to do on a standard length hose.

Not every location has such strong currents but here in Florida it's not uncommon to be hanging horizontaly on the line doing a safty/deco stop and have your bubbles pass your feet before they even start to rise.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Scott

[Cave Diver]

I breathe the long hose as my primary. In an OOA situation, I would donate my primary reg on the long hose and switch the the backup necklaced around my neck.

Initially, this setup felt a bit akward (the necklace), but after a couple of dives with it, I wouldnt want it setup any other way.

If you give this method a try, keep in mind it may take some experimenting with the necklace before it feels 'right', but once you get it how you like it it becomes an almost transparent part of your gear until needed.

I also use this same setup no matter what type of diving I am doing. That way there is minimal changes to my gear and you gain an intimate familiarity with the postition of ALL of your equipment ALL of the time.

[Dr. Jay]

Cave Diver once bubbled...
Initially, this setup felt a bit akward (the necklace), but after a couple of dives with it, I wouldnt want it setup any other way.


I've been thinking of going the necklace route. I guess it doesn't really get in the way if you hang it close. Almost seems like it would swing in your face in the swimming position, but I'm probably wrong about that.

Plus it's a good way of always knowing where your octo is.

Thanks again to all for the helpful info.

:yeah:

[nickjb]

Padipro once bubbled...


I have to disagree with you somewhat here Nick. IMHO, in certain situations the long hose is a great benefit in the open water enviornment.

<snip>

Scott

Actually I agree. The long hose is definitely useful in open water too. I was only trying to make the point that it isn't essential.

I use my long hose set-up on all dives.

[NetDoc]

During Wreckmania as we did our flag imitations on the down line during our deep stops, one of the participants was way low on gas. Not wanting them to do the final approach with zilch for gas, I handed them my long hose as we inched our way up. It worked great and I do love the ability to spread out if needed.

I do almost all my open water dives with the long primary, bungeed secondary set-up. It has worked well in every situation. While not all of the reasons I have ever heard for using it hold water, I am satisfied with the results and the freedom. I do believe in personal contact when the other diver has gone OOA. It has a calming effect that can not be dismissed. Luckily that has never happened with me, mostly 'cause I check my buddy's gas too!!!

[Cave Diver]

Dr. Jay once bubbled...


I've been thinking of going the necklace route. I guess it doesn't really get in the way if you hang it close. Almost seems like it would swing in your face in the swimming position, but I'm probably wrong about that.

Plus it's a good way of always knowing where your octo is.

Thanks again to all for the helpful info.

:yeah:

I pretty much had the same concerns. A little trial and error with the necklace length and materials soon resulted in a very comfortable fit. I can *almost* duck my head while swimming and take a breath from it without ever touching it with my hands. IMO it is worth experimenting with, after all, it DOES give you an excuse to do a few dives, strictly for training of course :D

[Padipro]

No worries Nick, I too use the long hose on all dives.

I first learned of this configuration from a couple of cave divers that I met and although I don't cave dive I thought it was a great idea for open water diving, as well as some of the other DIR ideas, and changed my configuration soon after. I've been diving with this configuration for nearly 5 years now and if you ask me it's the best way to spread the news about the advantages of some of the DIR ways of thinking because so many people ask me why the H**L I have such a long hose on my primary regulator. All I have to do is unwrap it from around my neck and hand it to them as if they were out of air and they seem to get the idea. :)

Scott

[lanun]

long hose is my primary but ...

do remember to brief your dive buddy if he/she is not familiar with the set-up (or do it anyways even if they say they know). and practice sharing air with the long hose, preferably off the bottom.

this past saturday i donated air to an OW student diver

[edited - rest of story moved to create a new thread]

anyways, back to the orig point - brief your buddy, and practice donating air.

[DocRCH]

If an OOA diver comes up to you, he (or she) may not adequately signal and just rip the reg out of your mouth. If this were the short hose, you may be face-to-face. It would be best if it were the 7' hose. As far as regs go, I would recommed that both the primary and secondary be balanced 1st and 2nd stages. They don't have to be identical, but of high quality and performance. My 2cents.

Robert:doctor:

[MHK]

I scanned the thread and I didn't see a few other points that are noteworthy to mention in any discussion relating to the proper usage of the long hose.

One of the principles of DIR diving is consistency throughout all your diving. In other words you are not going to use one configuration inside a wreck or cave, and then use a different configuration in the open ocean. Moreover, you and your buddy are consistently configured to eliminate the possibility of confusion in emergency situations, so once you accept that premise, let's discet why using a long hose, on the right port if diving doubles, is the donating regulator, and the back-up regulator is necklaced directly under the chin via a bungee. BTW, the hose length is always 7' in any true overhead environment, but should be no shorter then 5' in open ocean environemnts..

The basic premise of donating your primary regulator in an OOA emegency is because you absoluetly know that it's working because you've just been breathing from it. The last thing you want to do in an OOA is donate a reg that may not be working so by insuring the OOA diver gets a known working regulator you avoid the possibility that he may be down to his last breath and the *octo* may have collected contaimanents during the dive or may be temporarily malfucntioning. Moreover, by standardizing the positioning under your chin you eliminate the potential that it could have fallen out of the retaining device and you eliminate the possibility that you can't locate it, and if it should free-flow you'll know immediately because it's right under your chin..

Again, once you apply the principle of consistency you'll want to understadn that in an overhead environment, such as a wreck or cave, your primary is on the right port because in an OE if you are in an air share you'll put the problem diver as the lead diver in position 1 to exit. Should you scrap your valves on the cieling your right post that the OOA diver is breathing from will *roll on*, not off.. Whereas the left post, which you will be breathing from can actually roll off. However, should that happen you can simply reach back and turn your valve back on, whereas you may not know it if you are donating that hose, and then once again the OOA diver will be left without air..

I hope that answers your question, but if not let me know and I'll expand..

Later

[Cave Diver]

MHK once bubbled...
I scanned the thread and I didn't see a few other points that are noteworthy to mention in any discussion relating to the proper usage of the long hose.


I touched on one or two of these points briefly, but you did an excellent job on expanding on thread.

[pendive]

IF we're discussing recreational diving here, then I'm lost on the necessity of the "long hose". In RECREATIONAL diving I've always been taught (and teach) that in an out of air emergency you get a grip on each other (if for no other reason you can insure a comfortable escent) and in other than a panic situation, stay eyeball to eyeball. The eyes will help show you whether or not someone is about to panic, or get worse. If there is a panic that you can not control, than stay away or get away. A longer hose is still somethiong the panicy diver could use to "reel" you in or get otherwise entangled.
In an OOA emergency, in training situatuions for AOWD and Leadership divers, in every case I've ever read about and could document, the person that was OOA went for the reg in their buddies mouth.
Why have extra hose that could get in your way? Seems like the inline (ie AIR II style) reg would be a better idea to begin with.
As far as equally breathing primary and secondary regs - why? The person needing the air is going for the good one, the one in your mouth, where all the bubbles are. A secondary needs to breath good but does not have to be equal to the primary (assuming the primary is a high performer). The person with the air should not be breathing as hard or be as panicky (and we're not talking poor performer for the octo). Of course, seeing as I own a dive shop, having two Scubapro S600 2nd stages is fine with me :) Come to think of it, so is long hoses :)
Seriously, I know there are types of diving that require different equipment, but shouldn't you dive the equipment that's the simplest and best for YOU to dive with?
Just an opinion.

[Cave Diver]

pendive once bubbled...
IF we're discussing recreational diving here, then I'm lost on the necessity of the "long hose". In RECREATIONAL diving I've always been taught (and teach) that in an out of air emergency you get a grip on each other (if for no other reason you can insure a comfortable escent) and in other than a panic situation, stay eyeball to eyeball. The eyes will help show you whether or not someone is about to panic, or get worse. If there is a panic that you can not control, than stay away or get away. A longer hose is still somethiong the panicy diver could use to "reel" you in or get otherwise entangled.
In an OOA emergency, in training situatuions for AOWD and Leadership divers, in every case I've ever read about and could document, the person that was OOA went for the reg in their buddies mouth.
Why have extra hose that could get in your way? Seems like the inline (ie AIR II style) reg would be a better idea to begin with.
As far as equally breathing primary and secondary regs - why? The person needing the air is going for the good one, the one in your mouth, where all the bubbles are. A secondary needs to breath good but does not have to be equal to the primary (assuming the primary is a high performer). The person with the air should not be breathing as hard or be as panicky (and we're not talking poor performer for the octo). Of course, seeing as I own a dive shop, having two Scubapro S600 2nd stages is fine with me :) Come to think of it, so is long hoses :)
Seriously, I know there are types of diving that require different equipment, but shouldn't you dive the equipment that's the simplest and best for YOU to dive with?
Just an opinion.


Seems to me you answered your own questions.

You stated:

the person that was OOA went for the reg in their buddies mouth.
The person needing the air is going for the good one, the one in your mouth, where all the bubbles are
but shouldn't you dive the equipment that's the simplest and best for YOU to dive with?
In RECREATIONAL diving I've always been taught (and teach) that in an out of air emergency you get a grip on each other
A longer hose is still somethiong the panicy diver could use to "reel" you in or get otherwise entangled.



If a panicked person came up to you and grabbed your reg, wouldnt you like to be able to put a little distance between you and them?

Wouldn't you prefer to have an octo bungied around your neck where you could just dip your head and breathe instead of reaching down to where it is clipped to your BC and having to bring it up (2 sec vs. 10) , especially if they surprised you when you were inhaling?

Wouldn't using a similar set up for ALL types of diving actually simplify your diving by not having to reconfigure your setup for different dives and making sure your equipment is in the same place EVERY time?

And the last two statements are in direct conflict of each other. If you are concerned about a panicky diver reeling you in, why would you want to be close enough that they can physically grab you?? I would much prefer they are panicked and breathing on my long hose 7' away from me than flailing around with a deathgrip on my BC....

MHK's previous post answered most of those concerns in good detail.

[Padipro]

pendive once bubbled...
IF we're discussing recreational diving here, then I'm lost on the necessity of the "long hose". In RECREATIONAL diving I've always been taught (and teach) that in an out of air emergency you get a grip on each other (if for no other reason you can insure a comfortable escent) and in other than a panic situation, stay eyeball to eyeball. The eyes will help show you whether or not someone is about to panic, or get worse. If there is a panic that you can not control, than stay away or get away. A longer hose is still somethiong the panicy diver could use to "reel" you in or get otherwise entangled.

Pendive...

I'm not sure where you live but as I stated in my first post there are some places where the current and the depth, in combination, would make it very difficult to make an OOA ascent holding onto your buddy and the anchor line all the while not pulling the regulator out of their mouth, which is about the last thing you want to do to an OOA diver. This is precisely why I switched to the long hose, even for recreational diving without an overhead enviorment.

As far the in line type of "OCTO" goes, I used to use the Shadow Plus octo. While it was nice because it eliminated an entire hose from your reg I found it to be to short when I was using it during class deminstrations and I couldn't turn my head far enough to the right to see the other divers eyes, which is whole point of the procedure we teach in the class. I only used it for a short time before I got rid of it and switched to the long hose.

BTW, just to piss some of you off...LOL I'm going diving tomorrow, it's supposed to be 80 degrees air temp and the water temp is still about 77. Ya gotta love South Florida. :D

Scott

[nickjb]

MHK once bubbled...


<snip>.... BTW, the hose length is always 7' in any true overhead environment, but should be no shorter then 5' in open ocean environemnts..

<snip>

Later

You might want to mention that to JJ so he correct his book :sniper:

Sorry, just troillin' with ya.



Padipro, just to make you jealous, my local mudhole is 45 degrees F and dropping.

[MHK]

pendive once bubbled...
IF we're discussing recreational diving here, then I'm lost on the necessity of the "long hose". In RECREATIONAL diving I've always been taught (and teach) that in an out of air emergency you get a grip on each other (if for no other reason you can insure a comfortable escent) and in other than a panic situation, stay eyeball to eyeball. The eyes will help show you whether or not someone is about to panic, or get worse. If there is a panic that you can not control, than stay away or get away. A longer hose is still somethiong the panicy diver could use to "reel" you in or get otherwise entangled.
In an OOA emergency, in training situatuions for AOWD and Leadership divers, in every case I've ever read about and could document, the person that was OOA went for the reg in their buddies mouth.
Why have extra hose that could get in your way? Seems like the inline (ie AIR II style) reg would be a better idea to begin with.
As far as equally breathing primary and secondary regs - why? The person needing the air is going for the good one, the one in your mouth, where all the bubbles are. A secondary needs to breath good but does not have to be equal to the primary (assuming the primary is a high performer).
Seriously, I know there are types of diving that require different equipment, but shouldn't you dive the equipment that's the simplest and best for YOU to dive with?
Just an opinion.

Let me make a few points that I believe warrant an opposing opinion..

You start with the premise that you are distinguishing between recreational and technical diving. I assumed since this was the technical diving discussion section that we are discussing technical diving. However that being said, part of the DIR philosophy is simply put, consistency. I don't use one set of gear for technical diving and then use a different set of gear for recreational diving. I stay consistent so in the event of an emergency there is no confusion as to which gear I'm wearing, or which configuration my buddy is wearing.

Secondly, I believe that the air share scenario that you are citing, and that is currently being taught by many, is the least efficient way to handle an air share.. We teach that each team member is responsible for their own neutral bouyancy AT ALL TIMES, and that means especially in a OOA. All too often if there is a real life OOA and you have the donating diver holding on to the OOA diver and he is controlling the bouyancy for both, if they get seperated for a spit second what will happen is the donor will ascend because his BC will be full because he's trying to control both, and the OOA will generally sink without air. I've done several body recoveries where that was the exact fact pattern..

Furthermore, the last thing you would ever want is an Air II. Air II's present an added failure point connected to your primary inflation source, if your Air II fails you'll need to disconnect your primary inflation source. Also, for the Air II to be effective you'll need to add length to the corrogated hose to enable the donor a full range of motion if they ever need to use it..

By using a proper length hose and routing your back-up directly under your chin you avoid many of teh problems I discussed above..

Hope that helps..

Later

[boomx5]

http://www.divetekadventures.com/Videos/VideoOOA.htm

This link should take you to a good site that explains what MHK and others are talking about.

[boomx5]

http://www.divetekadventures.com/Videos/VideoOOA_ascent.htm

[Padipro]

I know this is way off the subject but I just had to glote. :D

Diving today was FANTASTIC!!!! 79 degrees air temp, 77 water temp, vis was 50+ feet and the skys were clear and the sun was shining. The wreck we did sits in 130 feet of water on her keel and is open at all decks so we did a great penitration. We had a 20 minute bottom time and a 5 minute hang time. And on top of that, I managed to snag 2 lobster on the second dive for a fresh lobster dinner tonight. God what a beautiful day. He he he

Scott

[MHK]

Dr. Jay once bubbled...
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I was just wondering which hose is the standard (I guess the DIR) for attaching the 7ft+ hose...your second stage or the octo?

I was hoping to shoot down the right path for tech diving in the future and I wanted to know what's being taught before I start looking at prices and such.

I've heard conflicting things from different people on the board, as well as what shops and such call a "7ft hose for your 2nd stage" and the same hose is also called a "7ft hose for your octo"...I'm soo confused :question:

I've scanned the thread so if this is redundant please forgive, I haven't read each response in total.

However, from a DIR perspective the long hose [ 5' - 7'] in length, but 7' if you are in an overhead environment, is routed on your primary regulator. The underlying principle in DIR is consistency, and the idea being that in any environment or any configuration you are consistent. Furthermore, as you progress into diving doubles and penetrating overhead environments, such as caves or wrecks, the long hose is the donatable hose. Accordingly, you always want your donating hose to be a *known working* regulator. You know that regulator is working because you, yourself, have just been breathing from it. You don't want uncertainty in an OOA emergency. If you donate a regulator that is in a retaining device or bungeed to your tanks or what have you, it leads to the potential for confusion and/or the notion that such regulator may not be working the very second you need it to be working. Your buddy may very well be down to his last breath so why chance it by donating a reg that may not work or may have collected contaminents, or you can't find it when you need it???

Also, as you progress in to doubles and OE's you'll want to route the primary long hose off of your right port. That is referred to as the roll-on port, whereas your left port is your roll-off port. If you donate your long hose to an OOA diver and you scrape your tanks against the ceiling, the donated reg can only roll into the ON position, whereas the left port, the one you are breathing can roll off. If that happens all you need to do is simply reach back and turn your post on. If that happens to the OOA diver you may not recognize it until it's too late..

Hope that helps..

Later

[DiverBuoy]

It's clear to me that sound thinking and experience makes a solid foundation in DIR setup and practices. It's always been apparent from your posts. Thanks for sharing such specific details with all of us.

[RPanick]

I've been floating through the discussion and this I must say has been one of the more informative threads that I have seen. I do have a few questions that I would like cleared up.

Ever since my OW class I thought the safe second regulator (which I take it is what you refer to as the Octo) was too short. Same goes for the primary when donating air. And this thread has confirmed that opinion.

When I did some reading on the long hose one of the prefered mechanisms for dealing with the long hose was to run it down, under your a light battery, and then up across your chest, around the back of your neck and then finally into your mouth. That actually makes some sense. But how do you do it if you are doing open water and not carrying a light battery to wrap it under.

There was also some discussion on various means of securing the extra using bungies and/or surgical tubing. But that sounded a bit awkward. If you were using only a single tank how would you deal with the extra hose. or is this the reason for using a 5 foot hose.

Next question, the other thing that I have gotten tired of is the constant fighting with the secondary to keep it in the ball. Maybe its the mouthpiece I use, but most of the time the reg isn't in the ball. So using the bungee seems to make a lot of sense. So, that said any suggestions on how best to attach it.

Next time I go to the quary, I think I'll take the time to see if I can find someone with the long hose to see if they can give me a good explanation too. Who knows I might even learn something. :bonk:

Bob

[Dryglove]

RPanick once bubbled...

When I did some reading on the long hose one of the prefered mechanisms for dealing with the long hose was to run it down, under your a light battery, and then up across your chest, around the back of your neck and then finally into your mouth. That actually makes some sense. But how do you do it if you are doing open water and not carrying a light battery to wrap it under.

There was also some discussion on various means of securing the extra using bungies and/or surgical tubing. But that sounded a bit awkward. If you were using only a single tank how would you deal with the extra hose. or is this the reason for using a 5 foot hose.



Bob

If your using a 7ft hose without a cannister light you simply tuck the remaining hose in your waist band or if you have a knife and sheath attached to your waist band route the hose under the sheath like you would on the cannister light.

The reg that uses bungees to keep it under your chin uses a 22"-24" hose.You can zip tie the bungee on or use knots

http://www.baue.org/images/galleries/view_album.php?set_albumName=equipment

http://www.northeastdir.com/gearpage1.htm

[Padipro]

RPanick once bubbled...
When I did some reading on the long hose one of the prefered mechanisms for dealing with the long hose was to run it down, under your a light battery, and then up across your chest, around the back of your neck and then finally into your mouth. That actually makes some sense. But how do you do it if you are doing open water and not carrying a light battery to wrap it under.

There was also some discussion on various means of securing the extra using bungies and/or surgical tubing. But that sounded a bit awkward. If you were using only a single tank how would you deal with the extra hose. or is this the reason for using a 5 foot hose.

Next question, the other thing that I have gotten tired of is the constant fighting with the secondary to keep it in the ball. Maybe its the mouthpiece I use, but most of the time the reg isn't in the ball. So using the bungee seems to make a lot of sense. So, that said any suggestions on how best to attach it.

Next time I go to the quary, I think I'll take the time to see if I can find someone with the long hose to see if they can give me a good explanation too. Who knows I might even learn something. :bonk:

Bob

Hay Bob,

I know exactly what you mean about the hoses being to short. Teaching was always a royal pain because of it so when I heard of the long hose I adopted it ASAP and have been diving, recreationally, with it ever sense. Someone already said that if you're not carrying a light just tuck the extra hose into the wast band and it will stay put rather well. As for the back up with the bungee, I found that the easiest way to secure it was to use a fishermans knot to tie the two ends of the bungee together and then slid it over the mouth piece and pull each end tight. It really doesn't get in the way once you get used to it and it's always right there if you need it.

Scott

[Wreck/Tec]

RPanic
I'm Glad your embracing the long hose concept. If your fairly new to diving this may be another thing heaped upon you to learn to manage, although an important thing. As for the Octo having a longer hose as well........I suppose thats your decision, however a standard legnth hose works well for me. It seems to be adiquite legnth as a backup when the primary has been deployed, and dosn't get caught on things from surplus legnth.
You seem to have the hose routing down, storing it under the light or knife sheath.
As for the tubing around the neck. A knot would work, I on the other hand never liked the knots pressing on my lips, or mouth. No the knots weren't the size of oranges. I'm about to tell all my secret! Go to most any auto parts store and ask to see their selection of compression fittings. There's a part inside the fitting that will be sold seperately called a Farrell. A Ferrell is a brass ring essentially, with tapered sides, and different sized holes for various sized copper or steel lines. Depending on the sizes they have and the size tubing you have, make your selection as follows. You will have to ultimately put two legnths of rubber hose through the holes in 2 Farrells. In other words make a circle with the hose, over lap the ends by 4 inches. It may take a little to get the hoses through the Farrell initally. When you do though stretch it as far as you dare so you can insert the second legnth through. The Farrells go 3/4 of an inch or so inside from the ends of the tubing on both sides with both legnths of tubing passing through the two Farrells. Then take the mouth piece of the Octo and put it into the hole you have created between the two farrells where the 2 " gap between the Farrells now exists. Grab the loose ends of the tubing and tighten the tubing around the mouth piece by pulling. Don't let the ends of the hose escape from the farrell. The brass won't rust, it won't cut your gear, it ultimately will be much smaller diameter than the hose! It won't pull easily at all if you have selected the propper Farrells. It will afford better fitting between your mouth and the regulator, and will be able to be pulled free if desired. Does it sound like alot of work, maybe, but it's better! Listen to the comments you'll be getting....................
Wreck/Tec

[RPanick]

I appreciate all the feedback, especially the link to the pictures. That helped quite a bit.

Another thing to add to my list of gear from the dive shop to pick up.

[merkin]

Wreck/Tec, do you have any photos. I was already sold on the long hose, but am now at the point of trying to figure out how to secure the backup 2nd stage. What length and type of tubing does everyone recommend? Or how do you determine the right length?

[Cave Diver]

merkin once bubbled...
Wreck/Tec, do you have any photos. I was already sold on the long hose, but am now at the point of trying to figure out how to secure the backup 2nd stage. What length and type of tubing does everyone recommend? Or how do you determine the right length?

I used 5/32" black vacuum tubing from local auto parts store. I overlapped the ends and zip tied them together to form a loop for my mouthpiece. Very cheap, easy and functional. The length was determined by how easily I could slip it over my head. I left one zip tie loose so I could adjust it til I got it comfortable, then tightened and trimmed.

I can attach a picture if you wish.

[The Pirate]

merkin once bubbled...
Wreck/Tec, do you have any photos. I was already sold on the long hose, but am now at the point of trying to figure out how to secure the backup 2nd stage. What length and type of tubing does everyone recommend? Or how do you determine the right length?

A loop of 3/16" shock chord either placed under the tie wrap at the mouthpiece or tied with a knot that tightens as it is pulled. Look at the regulator necklace at the bottom of this page. http://www.halcyon.net/acc/stagerig.shtml

The Pirate :pirate:

[RichLockyer]

Bob3 once bubbled...
A not often mentioned benefit of a long hose on the primary is that it may allow warming of the air by as much as 20°f, something to think about if diving in chilly water.
Hmm... I never thought of that before, but you're right... I haven't noticed the same cold, dry feeling since switching to the 7 footer.

[divevawreks]

If you will go out and try to share air from 100" and do a safty stop on a short hose you will buy the 7'. Chick diver mentioned how to rout the hose. this makes yr back up on a very short hose and is less drag. The 7' hose will be out of the way and in front you you. Much more stream lined and it is always a good idea to give an ooa diver the second stage that you KNOW is working. They may have had to just swim to you with empty lungs. They dont need the stress of finding out the back up doesnt work. The DIR standards are very well thought through. Go to the GUE web site for DIR info.

[longraven]

Hey lal7176's Photo, Cool Pic. Something out of the new flick RoboDiver. you are on your way to Holloywood... Keep the pic.

[Ziggys_Friend]

I'm with MHK all the way on this. I've just switched to a 7' long hose for my primary and I can't imagine ever going back. No, I don't have a canister light yet and I want my knife to the left of my belt buckle, so I just tuck the excess hose into my belt.

Having done several OOA drills as part of my DIR-F course I can definitely speak to the advantages of the long hose. Sure, it sounds great to say in an OOA situation to hold on to each other, but when the S@#$ hits the fan that extra flexibility is a Godsend.

Example one, we're down 40' and one of us goes OOA, no problem I'm there to donate my primary and easily switch to my back-up. However, now another team member looses his mask and my buddy sees it and I don't. Without thinking he's trying to help that buddy. Without that 7' he would have left his air supply behind.

Example two, we're swimming along and my buddy looses his mask. Moments later I'm OOA and signaling him (hand signals since he can't see) that I need his reg. Okay so far, but now we need to make a controlled ascent and we're both battling buoyancy issues. The 7' makes all the difference in the world believe me.

One other word for consistency. Despite it's advantages, a long hose does take some getting used to. That's especially true in deploying it in an OOA situation (handing it off, freeing it from your belt or canister, two tugs to make sure it's free). Switching lengths seems an unnecessary recipe for confusion.

~<//><

[richies]

Hi guys


What I would like to know is, how prevalent do you reckon DIR is in the US? Is it becoming a common method of teaching beginners?
It's gaining ground here in the UK, but veeeeryyyy sloooooowwwwwlyyyyyyy, almost entirely by word of mouth.

Also, does anyone know if there has been any reaction by the major training agencies? I'm curious because the British Sub Aqua Club thinks donating a long hose is too difficult for beginners...duh!

cheers


Rich

[mgri]

On the same lines.. something I don't understand is if all the evidence states that a diver in an OOA situation will go for your primary why do the agency teach to donate your secondary?

Donating a secondary can't be less difficult than donating a long hose. At least you know exactly where your primary is and you don't have to hunt for it.

Seems like the only time donating a secondary is easier is in a pool where the OOA is simulated and your not dealing with a panicked diver.

[roakey]

mgri once bubbled...
On the same lines.. something I don't understand is if all the evidence states that a diver in an OOA situation will go for your primary why do the agency teach to donate your secondary?
Two words: "Litigation paralysis" -- do a search on that and not only will you find an excellent discussion on which reg to donate, but in one of my responses I define "litigation paralysis" which is why so many agencies are stuck teaching donating the octo.

Roak

[mgri]

roakey once bubbled...

Two words: "Litigation paralysis" -- do a search on that and not only will you find an excellent discussion on which reg to donate, but in one of my responses I define "litigation paralysis" which is why so many agencies are stuck teaching donating the octo.

Roak

awww yes, how silly of me. I forgot that corporations and agencies don't live in our world of reality and common sense:rolleyes:

Thanks Roak

[tyrell]

To use a long hose or not this is not even a question. The question is where to put it.

To my opinion, and this is the way i dive, the long hose has to b on the octopus.

This is for several reasons.
1. If my buddy will grab my octopus he will take the long hose and use it. We will not have to change regs.
2. If i have to give someone in stress the octopus i reach and take the octopus with the long hose and give it to him.

i don’t like to dive with the long hose because if there is a situation that someone is in stress i have to take out the reg from my mouth and give it to him. If everything is well then he takes the reg and i take my reg and we both r ok.

But, if if the diver is in stress and i have to calm him down while giving him my reg(with the long hose) and during this action i have to control the diver ,i don’t want to look for my reg, even if its hanging on my neck.

Donno how many of u had this situation but if u had it then u know that the last thing u need when u r dealing with a stressed hysteric diver under water is another factor to take care of.


mark

[JohnF]

tyrell once bubbled...
To use a long hose or not this is not even a question. The question is where to put it.

>>>> snip>>>>

Donno how many of u had this situation but if u had it then u know that the last thing u need when u r dealing with a stressed hysteric diver under water is another factor to take care of.
mark

Are you always positive your secondary is in good working order when you hand it off? If you donate the primary you know it works, you've been breathing it. You are less stressed than the OOA diver you're helping and should be in a better state of mind to deal with a messed-up secondary. Which brings up the other advantage of breathing the long hose. It allows you to necklace your secondary so it's in a better spot not to pick up bottom crud etc.

JohnF

[roakey]

tyrell once bubbled...
i don’t like to dive with the long hose because if there is a situation that someone is in stress i have to take out the reg from my mouth and give it to him. If everything is well then he takes the reg and i take my reg and we both r ok.

But, if if the diver is in stress and i have to calm him down while giving him my reg(with the long hose) and during this action i have to control the diver ,i don’t want to look for my reg, even if its hanging on my neck.
The fact that you've considered that you might be dealing with a panicked, hysteric diver is good. The fact that you continue to cling to the conception that such a diver will go for ANYTHING other than the most obvious working regulator -- the one in your mouth -- is disappointing. In addition, the fact that anyone beyond the second pool session in OW class would fear removing a regulator from their mouth is a sad commentary on the state of training today.

But I'm simply rehashing old information. See: http://www.scubaboard.com/t10022/s.html for a very long, detaild discussion on this very subject. This is probably the best post where we hashed this topic out quite extensively.

Roak

[tyrell]

Are you always positive your secondary is in good working order when you hand it off?

Yes i am positive; the regs r checked all the time. u can ask the same question about the reg that is on youre neck.

Regarding where u put the second reg. As long as u can reach it in reasonable time or your buddy can reach it in reasonable time and it is in a clear place, its ok.


In addition, the fact that anyone beyond the second pool session in OW class would fear removing a regulator from their mouth is a sad commentary on the state of training today.


There is nothing to do with training, what im trying to say is if u have a factor of a stressed divers give all!! the attention to the stressed diver . If during this situation u have 2 add another factor of looking 4 you’re reg, no matter how minor attention u put into this act, and no matter how close it is 2 u , u still have to use one hand to grab the reg. That means that u have 2 stop holding the diver with that hand. When u grab a stressed diver with youre both hands and legs, leaving one hand, even its for a second, don’t think its worth this regulator switch.

To use the long hose or the regular during the dive is a matter of approach. There is no right or wrong in the way u configure you’re equipment. As long as it is safe and u know how 2 use it.

regards
mark

[roakey]

tyrell once bubbled...
To my opinion, and this is the way i dive, the long hose has to b on the octopus.
How easy is it for you to restow after the start-of-dive S-drill?

How do you stow it?

Roak

[cast55]

tyrell once bubbled...

Yes i am positive; the regs r checked all the time. u can ask the same question about the reg that is on youre neck.


True, but the fundamental difference between the two is that, if you go to a backup which is fouled, malfunctioning or breathing wet, as the donor you are in a much better frame of mind to deal with that problem than your buddy who is out of gas, and may already be close to panic.



Regarding where u put the second reg. As long as u can reach it in reasonable time or your buddy can reach it in reasonable time and it is in a clear place, its ok.


Not only reasonable time, but effectively instantaneously, and I can have that reg in hand ready to donate at the slightest provocation (preemptive), and can put it back and breathe it again when the potential problem is gone. I can do this many times during a dive, and in fact, on the fly while swimming or scootering.



...and no matter how close it is 2 u , u still have to use one hand to grab the reg. That means that u have 2 stop holding the diver with that hand. When u grab a stressed diver with youre both hands and legs, leaving one hand, even its for a second, don’t think its worth this regulator switch.


With your legs? WTF?

Actually, a properly configured necklaced backup is at the correct distance, in a mouthpiece up orientation to enable you to grab the second stage hands-free, with just your mouth.

-Sean

[bwerb]

Everytime I have had a discussion with someone who uses a stuffed longhose and asked them about OOA drills, time and time again the blank look/I don't "usually" do that answer comes...reality...few stuffed longhose divers practice their OOA drills on a regular basis because stowing is such a PITA.

Also...most OW divers never do any form of OOA drill the closest is in their cert course (while kneeling on the bottom in superslowmotion) or their rescue course (where they are taught how to "protect their primaries" from the panicked OOA diver while holding out the octopus as a shield.

It takes a minute to do an S-Drill and restow...practice ever dive and when the time comes...muscle memory takes over. No panic regardless if the reg is ripped out or not...train so you don't have to think about it anymore.

[scubasean]

bwerb once bubbled...
Everytime I have had a discussion with someone who uses a stuffed longhose and asked them about OOA drills, time and time again the blank look/I don't "usually" do that answer comes...reality...few stuffed longhose divers practice their OOA drills on a regular basis because stowing is such a PITA.



Well...they may also just feel comfortable with the drill....

My son and I dove Monterey for the first time together (he's a new OW) and we practiced, but with him as donee, and with me as donee....He and I use slightly different equipment, but both of us can donate and receive at any time....

I agree that regular practice (takes five min...) is the key...no matter what your configuration is.