Filling Air into a "Nitrox" Tank ILLEGAL?

[Steve Lawson]

I went to Sport Chalet today to get my doubles filled. One of the two tanks had a NITROX sticker on it, which hasn't been a problem in the past. The genius that filled my tanks only filled one side (he shut off the isolation valve) stating that it was illegal to fill the tank labeled NITROX with air. He showed me a copy of an article that appeared in March, 2007 Northwest Diving News that stated on page 33 "It is illegal to thereafter fill that cylinder with air until the dedicated markings are removed."

I offered to remove the NITROX label, but was told that I would have to take it home, remove the label, then bring them in the next day. I thought it was silly to only fill one tank in a set of doubles.

I'm going to follow up to see what statute specifically states that bottles can only be filled with the media as labeled. Has anyone else heard of such a thing?

Steve

[DiveSite]

Find a new shop!

[daniel f aleman]

As suggested above, find a different shop.

[Upstate Scuba OWI]

find a new shop fast

[grazie42]

Ask him if the magazine is how he got all his "diving education"...

[wedivebc]

Ask him if the magazine is how he got all his "diving education"...
Yeah really, when everyone knows the only true place to learn about diving is the internet:D

I gotta find a back issue of NWDN now

[lamont]

"Sport Chalet" sounds really familiar... I think this shop may have been doing fillmonkey stuff like this for years... Check the search function...

[daniel f aleman]

I found the article mentioned above by the Sport Chalet tank filler concerning, "nitrox tanks being filled with air as being illegal". He alluded to an article written by Bill High, founder and President of PSI, published in the March, 2007, Northwest Dive News, starting on page 32. It seems that the tank filler quoted the article correctly.

Cylinder Safety, by Bill High, PSI, Inc. Page 32, referenced comment begins in last paragraph, #3:
http://www.nwdivenews.com/back_issues_gallery/streamimage.php?path=LzIwMDcgMDMgLSBNYXJjaC8zMi5qc Gc=&width=594&height=554

Page 33, article continues, with referenced comment in first paragraph:
http://www.nwdivenews.com/back_issues_gallery/streamimage.php?path=LzIwMDcgMDMgLSBNYXJjaC8zMy5qc Gc=&width=594&height=554

Northwest Dive News magazine:
http://www.nwdivenews.com/

My guess is that it's PSI regulations to not fill a Nitrox marked tank with air.

Here are Fill Express views on tank fill policy: If you wish a fill with other than the permanent contents label, the label must be removed or obscured (i.e. covered with tape). Although, they don't cite a law.
http://www.fillexpress.com/library/fillfaq.shtml#contents

[DennisS]

Get a 21% nitrox fill

[DennisW]

What a tank monkey. Like DennisS said, tell him you want a 21% fill. He will never know the difference.

[james croft]

What a tank monkey. Like DennisS said, tell him you want a 21% fill. He will never know the difference.
But he will charge you for a nitrox fill.

[fppf]

Here are Fill Express views on tank fill policy: If you wish a fill with other than the permanent contents label, the label must be removed or obscured (i.e. covered with tape). Although, they don't cite a law.
http://www.fillexpress.com/library/fillfaq.shtml#contents

Thanks for the links, talk about hitting your own horn with the PSI standards. As far as I understood, DOT is the only real LAW set in the states. The other standards are industrial guidlines. When you get a tank Hydroed it is a DOT approved station that does it.

You took the fill express quote totally out of context though. In that part they are talking about cylinders that are permently marked with a MOD or Fill, here is the rest of it....

"Filling a cylinder with a breathing gas other than is labeled can create dangerous situations where the contents might be used under the assumption it's actual contents match the labeling. If a cylinder has been dedicated to a specific breathing gas with permanent MOD or contents labels, we will fill that cylinder only with the labeled gas. For example, if the cylinder is labeled "Oxygen 20 ft" we will fill only with 100% Oxygen or if the cylinder is labeled with "70" maximum operating depth we will fill only with 50% Oxygen. If you wish a fill with other than the permanent contents label, the label must be removed or obscured (i.e. covered with tape)."

If you read down the page, here is the true policy....

"Will you fill my Nitrox cylinder with Air?
Yes. We can fill your Nitrox cylinder with Normoxic Nitrox (also known as Oxygen-Compatible Air). This means we will follow our policies and procedures as for any other Nitrox mixture: the cylinder contents must be analyzed and a contents label affixed to the cylinder. The price (http://www.fillexpress.com/fills.shtml#npremix) for the fill is the same as for our Nitrox sport premix."

The only real problem with filling a Nitrox tank with air is the air must be ultra pure. This is to keep the oxygen compatability of the tank, IE keep it clean. I have air put in a Nitrox tank all the time, almost all my tanks are O2 cleaned. I just check them and write 21% MOD 187 on them.

[Web Monkey]

He's not crazy, but he's not exactly right either.

There are any number of valid reasons that they might not fill a nitrox tank:

Your tank is marked O2 clean and they don't have O2-compatible air. Filling the tank might contaminate it, making it no longer O2 clean.
They may not be setup to analyze nitrox tanks and have a problem letting a tank containing an unknown mix out of the store.
Their insurance company may be preventing them from filling anything exept plain air.
He isn't certified to fill anything except air.





I went to Sport Chalet today to get my doubles filled. One of the two tanks had a NITROX sticker on it, which hasn't been a problem in the past. The genius that filled my tanks only filled one side (he shut off the isolation valve) stating that it was illegal to fill the tank labeled NITROX with air. He showed me a copy of an article that appeared in March, 2007 Northwest Diving News that stated on page 33 "It is illegal to thereafter fill that cylinder with air until the dedicated markings are removed."

[DA Aquamaster]

fppf's post is well stated. I do the same thing marking wise with a deco bottle that gets put into occasional pony bottle service - it reads 21% with a 187 ft MOD when fill with oxygen compatible air.

The logic of not filling a dedicated EAN cylinder with plain old grade E air makes sense as compressed air can meet grade E standards and still have an excessive amount of hydrocarbons in it to be O2 compatible. If a fill were done with Grade E air containing excessive hydro carbons it could result in contamination in the tank that could make it unsafe for future partial pressure nitrox fills.

Where the no air in nitrox tanks logic runs off the rails however is in the failure to recognize that just about every shop on the planet that mixes nitrox through either partial pressire or membrane techniques already uses the additonal filtering needed to ensure all their air meets the lower hydro carbon standards required for O2 compatibility. To do otherwise is just inviting cross contamination issues.

Consequently, it is not at all unreasonable to expect what amounts to a "21% Nitrox" fill at a shop that sells nitrox. A "21% Nitrox" fill also should not cost more than an "Air" fill from the same shop. The additional cost for Nitrox comes from the cost of introducing the additional oxygen, not from the minimal cost of the additional filtering which is most likely already being done to their regular "air".

One thing that is also seldom considered is that while O2 compatible air has less hydro carbons, it does not have zero hydrocarbons in it. Consequently, I am less concerned about a tank that has had a few fills of grade E air with an excess of hydro carbons (but still within reasonable grade E limits) than I am about a heavily used nitrox tank that has had perhaps 100 nitrox fills with the lower (but still present) hydrocarbon limit. The potential for hydrocarbons to accummulate on the interior surface of the tank to unsafe levels is much greater in the second case than in the first.

The irony here is that you will be most likely to find these heavily used tanks in the rental racks at the same dive shops that do nitrox fills and most would not hesitate to do a partial pressure nitrox fill on this potentially contaminated tank as the tank has been religiously filled with nitrox compatible air in the past and is not viewed as being potentially contaminated.

I get worried any time strict adherence to the rules becomes more important than knowledge and common sense.

[Scared Silly]

I think term illegal is a bit muddied. However, this is probably the best way to get the point across to the vast majority of people. The reason I say muddied is because the standards for labeling are from the CGA which is an industry standard this is not part of the CFRs. Although the CFR could reference them which that case they are basically defacto "the law'. Note I say could be because I have not read through all them as it pertains to cylinders.


Where the no air in nitrox tanks logic runs off the rails however is in the failure to recognize that just about every shop on the planet that mixes nitrox through either partial pressire or membrane techniques already uses the additonal filtering needed to ensure all their air meets the lower hydro carbon standards required for O2 compatibility. To do otherwise is just inviting cross contamination issues.

Hopefully I will state this correctly. But there are also the shops that do continuous mixing which does not require O2 Compatible Air. As such, this is where the Nitrox Compatiable vs O2 Clean comes in.



One thing that is also seldom considered is that while O2 compatible air has less hydro carbons, it does not have zero hydrocarbons in it. Consequently, I am less concerned about a tank that has had a few fills of grade E air with an excess of hydro carbons (but still within reasonable grade E limits) than I am about a heavily used nitrox tank that has had perhaps 100 nitrox fills with the lower (but still present) hydrocarbon limit. The potential for hydrocarbons to accummulate on the interior surface of the tank to unsafe levels is much greater in the second case than in the first.

Perhaps another way of thinking is just because a cylinder is O2 clean does mean it is always O2 clean.

[Rick Inman]

Who cares, if it's backgas? The op was talking about his doubles - not a dedicated high % o2 bottle. You're not gonna' get more than 40% at a chain LDS like S.C. anyway. Labels, shambels. Just give me what I ask for - it's my tanks, and I doubt I'll blow up your shop with my 32%. You wanna' analyze my remaining gas to make sure I'm not doing the partial pressure fox trot on you, ok (although, you might get a 0% reading :eyebrow: ).

Really, until you get over the 50% hump, just give me the gas.

[Gil57usa]

It really is amazing where some people get their information. It is the DOT that regulates compressed gas cylinders. OSHA is also involved in one way or another. Rest assured though, it is not illegal to fill a nitrox tank with air unless it is permanently marked as a nitrox tank in some way.

[Dan Gibson]

he's misguided


The genius that filled my tanks only filled one side (he shut off the isolation valve)

[lamont]

The genius that filled my tanks only filled one side (he shut off the isolation valve) stating that it was illegal to fill the tank labeled NITROX with air.

Yup, if you think the fillmonkey was doing anything remotely according to any policy or rational safety practice that DOT/PSI/etc recommend read that sentence over again.

I'm pretty sure that I've read about the Sport Chalet on this board before as well -- if memory serves they partial pressure blend nitrox, but it'll take you a serious argument to get them to top a nitrox-labelled tank with EAN21... :banghead:

[wedivebc]

Could someone please direct me to whatever statute makes putting air in a nitrox tank illegal. I am not familiar with US laws.

[SparticleBrane]

^ There aren't any.

[Ann Marie]

I'm pretty sure that I've read about the Sport Chalet on this board before as well -- if memory serves they partial pressure blend nitrox, but it'll take you a serious argument to get them to top a nitrox-labelled tank with EAN21... :banghead:

You are incorrect. They do not fill nitrox at all; perhaps this is why the employee made a mistake. He read an article and misinterpreted what was written. Similar to what you just posted.

Luckily, when someone makes a mistake, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt before I sling mud.

[Dan Gibson]

and here I thought the mistake was closing the isolator :confused:


You are incorrect. They do not fill nitrox at all; perhaps this is why the employee made a mistake. He read an article and misinterpreted what was written. Similar to what you just posted.

Luckily, when someone makes a mistake, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt before I sling mud.

[Delta_P]

Could someone please direct me to whatever statute makes putting air in a nitrox tank illegal. I am not familiar with US laws.

Depending on the jurisdiction, there could be a couple of potential violations here (WARNING - rampant speculation follows. I'm not an American.):

1) If the employee finishes filling the tank and walks away without altering the label, he could be in violation of the Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System section of whatever Occupational Safety and Health regulations governs his workplace - the label must reflect the contents. I doubt the yellow band would qualify as a "workplace label" since it covers a wide range of mixes (and hazards).

2) Once the tank is filled, if it will be tranported by road the Transport of Dangerous Goods regulations probably require that the label must be changed from "UN1956 COMPRESSED GAS N.O.S." (Not Otherwise Specified) to "UN1002 AIR, COMPRESSED" (not more than 23.5% oxygen). Oddly enough, TDG doesn't recognize the yellow band either. :)

And yes, I'm a sick and twisted individual for even thinking about this. Shoot me now.

[Steve Lawson]

I e-mailed the author of the article, and he replied as follows:

Cylinders must contain the gas that they are labeled for. The Compressed Gas Association publication C-10 states that interchanging different categories of gas in a cylinder that is marked for one category of gas is improper. This is law by reference based on Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations that includes all references contained within are the same as the code itself.

The CGA is not a rule making body but is incorporated in the CFR’s.

NOAA is the agency that started the NITROX labeling requirements that are followed by practice in the dive industry. Nitrox and Air are two different categories of gas per the CGA, so a visual inspection to CGA standards must be performed when changing the gas in the cylinder, example: Nitrox to air or Air to Nitrox. The reason for this is to prevent Oxygen cleaned cylinders from being contaminated by filling with air. CGA dictates that any Oxygen concentrations greater than 23.5% require the cylinder to be Oxygen cleaned. The 40% rule does not apply to sport scuba per Title 29 of the code of federal regulations and has been erroneously adopted by the sport diving industry. PSI subscribes to the CGA guidelines of O2 cleaning any cylinder that has greater that 23.5% Oxygen.

We understand that this practice of interchanging Air and Nitrox takes place daily but must reiterate it is incorrect and unsafe.

Regards,

Mark A. Gresham
General Manager PSI Inc.

[Diver Dennis]

Hmmmm. I would not want an ignorant fill monkey to get anywhere near my tanks...

The people who fill mine are not "fill monkeys".

[The Kraken]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

A person's ignorance of the laws set forth the U.S. DOT with regard to the cleaning and filling of tanks containing elevated percentages of oxygen does not make him or her an "idiot".

I'm sure there are many people across the nation and world filling tanks who are not fully aware of all of the actual regulations regarding filling, and I'm also sure that they're not all "idiots". I fill tanks from time to time and am not an expert in the laws and regulations set forth by the DOT. I sure hope that doesn't make me an idiot!

Let's not resort to name calling.

Thanks . . .

The Kraken

[joji]

YES,have them fill nitrox 21%,the only difference is it should pass thru nitrox filter.But better yet, look for a new shop who understand what they are doing.

[CBulla]

Who cares, if it's backgas? The op was talking about his doubles - not a dedicated high % o2 bottle. You're not gonna' get more than 40% at a chain LDS like S.C. anyway. Labels, shambels. Just give me what I ask for - it's my tanks, and I doubt I'll blow up your shop with my 32%. You wanna' analyze my remaining gas to make sure I'm not doing the partial pressure fox trot on you, ok (although, you might get a 0% reading :eyebrow: ).

Really, until you get over the 50% hump, just give me the gas.

Rick - you beat me to it again! :D

BTW - any 2 people can create an organization of standards and publish something.. while I respect the knowlege they share, its been stated in this thread already that common sense and education go a long way.

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Remove all the labels from your tanks... problem solved.

[Scared Silly]

Remove all the labels from your tanks... problem solved.

Actually not ... read this thread for the opposite problem:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=187503


Quite honestly, after reading both threads I have to say that folks on all sides could use some further education. And even though I have taken (and passed) the PSI Inspector course I am still learning.

[ekewaka]

Buy a compressor, and fill your own tanks... problem solved. ;)

[DA Aquamaster]

"NOAA is the agency that started the NITROX labeling requirements that are followed by practice in the dive industry. Nitrox and Air are two different categories of gas per the CGA, so a visual inspection to CGA standards must be performed when changing the gas in the cylinder, example: Nitrox to air or Air to Nitrox. The reason for this is to prevent Oxygen cleaned cylinders from being contaminated by filling with air."

This is largely and issue of semantics. If the "air" being introduced into the tank meets the lower hydro carbon standards required for the O2 compatible air used to mix nitrox, contamination is not going to occur.

Or from another perspective, "air" that meets O2 compatibility standards is for all practical purposes "Nitrox 21" and would by definition not contaminate a nitrox tank. The only possible objection here is that it would not meet the NOAA definition of Nitrox as it does not contain at least 23.5% O2 and to use that argument would be pretty stupid as a lower O2 concentration of 21% will also not contaminate the tank.

Also I suspect that;

"visual inspection to CGA standards must be performed when changing the gas in the cylinder, example: Nitrox to air"

is a mistatement or overstatement as I would be very surprised if the CGA would actually mandate cleaning and re-inspection if you put air into a tank fomerly used for nitrox service, as long as it is no longer labeled for Nitrox service, as the already completed cleaning and Nitrox inspection were done to much more rigorous standards.

[pakman]

you think he would have caught on if you walked out of the store, opened the manifold, let the two tanks equalize, close the manifold, and went back in the shop and complained you didn't get a full fill?


repeat as necessary... :eyebrow:

[eponym]

Rest assured though, it is not illegal to fill a nitrox tank with air unless it is permanently marked as a nitrox tank in some way.The phrase "permanently marked" has come up in this thread and its links more than once. Does an adhesive label constitute a "permanent" mark?

Just wondering,
Bryan

[SparticleBrane]

I find it interesting that the person who runs an organization that trains people to do tank inspections...is recommending tank inspections every time you switch from nitrox to air or vice versa. :rolleyes:

While it sounds like they want to just be extra extra safe (never a problem with that), it also makes me sad that common sense is lacking. If the air I'm putting in my tanks is so "dirty" that it will "contaminate" my tanks, do I even want to dive that stuff to begin with? :confused: Doesn't matter to me--most places around here pump O2 clean air. :D

[Randy43068]

I went to Sport Chalet today to get my doubles filled. One of the two tanks had a NITROX sticker on it, which hasn't been a problem in the past. The genius that filled my tanks only filled one side (he shut off the isolation valve) stating that it was illegal to fill the tank labeled NITROX with air. He showed me a copy of an article that appeared in March, 2007 Northwest Diving News that stated on page 33 "It is illegal to thereafter fill that cylinder with air until the dedicated markings are removed."

I offered to remove the NITROX label, but was told that I would have to take it home, remove the label, then bring them in the next day. I thought it was silly to only fill one tank in a set of doubles.

I'm going to follow up to see what statute specifically states that bottles can only be filled with the media as labeled. Has anyone else heard of such a thing?

Steve

Nut cases and nonsense. If that's how stupid they are, find a new shop.
However, you don't want to do PP fills if you don't know the "quality" of the can.

A visual will not necessarily tell you if you have a "dirty" can, but "black lighting" the inside can give you a clue if there are hydrocarbons in your cylinder.

[in_cavediver]

I find it interesting that the person who runs an organization that trains people to do tank inspections...is recommending tank inspections every time you switch from nitrox to air or vice versa. :rolleyes:

While it sounds like they want to just be extra extra safe (never a problem with that), it also makes me sad that common sense is lacking. If the air I'm putting in my tanks is so "dirty" that it will "contaminate" my tanks, do I even want to dive that stuff to begin with? :confused: Doesn't matter to me--most places around here pump O2 clean air. :D

I agree. That said, I vow to never dive anything but NOAA type nitrox (o2 > 23.5%), Hypoxic NOAA nitrox and Helium enriched hypoxic NOAA type nitrox. Therefore, my tanks will always be NITROX tanks....(without the bumper stickers)

[SparticleBrane]

I usually dive air (seriously I don't need nitrox for 30ft dives) but it's always O2 clean. I don't have bumper stickers either...they're too ugly. :11:
If I need nitrox I'll just label the tanks with the %.

[CompuDude]

This is absurd.

Sport Chalet is a big chain, and NONE of their shops pump Nitrox. All of their setups are air-only. Regular Grade E, not the Mod-E hyper filtered o2-clean compatible air.

The OP's tanks were labelled "Nitrox" not a specific o2 percentage nitrox. He also didn't state that the tanks were o2 clean... if they were, it would have been foolish of him to get a fill at Sport Chalet, unless he no longer cared about maintaining their o2 clean state. But even if they were, and if he no longer cared about keeping them o2 clean, that should be his choice, not the shops. Sport Chalet should have absolutely no say whatsoever in such things since they have decided, as a chain, not to offer Nitrox fills at any location.

Air *IS* Nitrox, as has been pointed out a few times: 21% Nitrox, to be precise. There is nothing remotely "illegal" about filling a Nitrox tank with 21% Nitrox. And no matter where you get your air fill, you're still getting 21% Nitrox.

The only conceivable concern I can give any credence to is if there was remaining gas of unknown percentage in the tanks, upon getting the fill, the owner may have walked out of the shop with, say 28% or so rather than plain air. Easily solved by dumping the gas in the tank before filling.

Which Sport Chalet store did you go to? I want to know so I can (a) avoid that location, and (b) possibly report the idiot behind the counter. I get my tanks filled at the West Hills Sport Chalet store on a regular basis, and don't have any of these issues, no matter what my tanks say on the outside. (My old tanks had Trimix stickers all over, and nary an eyebrow was raised.)

[Ann Marie]

I would like to point out that Sport Chalet does not fill cylinders with Enriched Air and therefore has no policy for filling Enriched Air Cylinders.

The person working in the department should have drained the cylinders and had you remove any enriched air stickers before filling.

For those of you that called him an idiot or other disparaging names, he made a mistake; I hope that you take the time to thank God you're perfect.

I have no idea where this store is located or who the person was, but do you all need to be so harsh?

[dsteding]

(he shut off the isolation valve)

No one should touch your isolator when filling . . . EVER.

[SparticleBrane]

The person working in the department should have drained the cylinders and had you remove any enriched air stickers before filling.
Which stickers? The little tiny ones saying what's in the tank (current mix)? Or the big huge nitrox bumper stickers? I'm sure as heck not going to take off and put on one of those huge stickers each time I switch from a nitrox to an air fill (not that I use those stickers to begin with...)

While I don't agree with the nitrox bumper stickers, I also don't agree with having a shop money ask someone to remove something from a customer's tank. Why should I have to take a big ugly sticker off my tank? Just because a tank says trimix or nitrox doesn't mean it's filled with it.

[CompuDude]

A simple mistake in misunderstanding a policy I can forgive. But there were SEVERAL mis-steps in that exchange, not the least of which was turning off the isolator valve and filling only half the set. Then the absurd advice was given to take off the stickers and come back tomorrow?

Whoever it was either needs a serious attitude adjustment, some thorough re-training... or a new job where they are less likely to put someone's life at risk.

Had they been my tanks in that situation, the diminutive appellation of "idiot" is mild compared to the havoc I would have raised. I don't claim to be perfect, but I also do not have a job where a mistake can have such disastrous results.

[Dan Gibson]

Who cares about the nitrox/air sticker debate. If one doesn't want to get involved in those sort of things, do what many of us have done. Get your own compressor. It's closing the isolator that is the real problem. I understand mistakes, but it sounds like the fill operator intentionally closed it. :shakehead


I would like to point out that Sport Chalet does not fill cylinders with Enriched Air and therefore has no policy for filling Enriched Air Cylinders.

The person working in the department should have drained the cylinders and had you remove any enriched air stickers before filling.

For those of you that called him an idiot or other disparaging names, he made a mistake; I hope that you take the time to thank God you're perfect.

I have no idea where this store is located or who the person was, but do you all need to be so harsh?

[lamont]

I would like to point out that Sport Chalet does not fill cylinders with Enriched Air and therefore has no policy for filling Enriched Air Cylinders.

Because they're worried about liability. Being afraid of nitrox or unable to figure out business practices in order to sell it in 2007 does not speak well of the competency of the overall business.

[CompuDude]

Because they're worried about liability. Being afraid of nitrox or unable to figure out business practices in order to sell it in 2007 does not speak well of the competency of the overall business.
They are, first and foremost, a chain sporting goods store. Scuba is a small department within the whole. As I understand it (and I don't pretend to have a comprehensive understanding) there are issues with needing to have employees other than those in the scuba dept. be trained for Nitrox, and it starts to get a lot more expensive. Then there are OSHA requirements and a bunch of other issues that can be dealt with for a small Scuba shop with perhaps 10 employees, but again, scale up poorly when you're talking about dozens of shops and hundreds of employees.

There are rumors of pending changes to the Nitrox [non-]policy, but nothing firm has been announced.

I'm fine with them not carrying Nitrox (although I wish they would!), but this particular situation is clearly in a whole different realm of problems.

[SparticleBrane]

Basically what we're dealing with here is someone who needs to engage their brain.

[texdiveguy]

Just use one of these on your cylinders:

http://www.airspeedpress.com/stickers2.html

[nadwidny]

I would like to point out that Sport Chalet does not fill cylinders with Enriched Air and therefore has no policy for filling Enriched Air Cylinders.

Obviously they have no policy for educating their employees either.


For those of you that called him an idiot or other disparaging names, he made a mistake; I hope that you take the time to thank God you're perfect.

There is a difference between being perfect and being an idiot. Nobody is expecting perfection. What we are expecting is that LDS (or equivalent) employees have half a clue.


I have no idea where this store is located or who the person was, but do you all need to be so harsh?

Yes. It was a shop monkey at an LDS (or equivalent). They deserve it.

[ekewaka]

Just use one of these on your cylinders:

http://www.airspeedpress.com/stickers2.html
I like the "This is not your tank" stickers.

[texdiveguy]

I like the "This is not your tank" stickers.

Yep these are great....I use them on my cylinders.....covers it all.

[Rick Inman]

I have the solution.

In front of the guy, I would have opened the isolator valve and let the tanks equalize, closed the valve, then asked for a fill again in the sticker-less tank. Then open and equalize, close, and ask again, and repeat until the tanks are full. If they charge for every fill it should only cost about $100.00 for an air fill.
:shakehead

[mderrick]

[

Consequently, it is not at all unreasonable to expect what amounts to a "21% Nitrox" fill at a shop that sells nitrox. A "21% Nitrox" fill also should not cost more than an "Air" fill from the same shop. The additional cost for Nitrox comes from the cost of introducing the additional oxygen, not from the minimal cost of the additional filtering which is most likely already being done to their regular "air".


Can't let this one go unchallenged. It's just not correct. The cost of OCA air fill in my operation is the same as Nitrox because MOST of the cost is in the OCA filtration and subsquent differences in handling, not the oxygen.

In a non-Nitrox fill operation, the fill station operator should not fill any cylinder labeled as being oxygen clean... as their gas is not oxygen compatible. The big yellow nitrox label is not meaningful, the label (probably the VIP decal) that indicates the cylinder is oxygen service (or nitrox ready, or cleaned for nitrox service or... or ... ) is what matters. Want an air fill in your cylinder from a non-nitrox shop, then they are perfectly justified (probably many fill station operators would say they are obligated) to scrape off the decals, perform an inspection, and then put their own VIP decal (that will say nothing about nitrox or oxygen service although more recently many recent designs will actally explicitly state they are air only or NOT for oxygen service) and charge for a VIP.

In a partial pressure blending Nitrox enabled shop, requesting an 'air' fill normally implies that the nitrox cylinder will be handled as an ordinary air fill.... also a bad idea. This is not 'just because of the grade E contamination issue, but also because the 'air' fill station part of their opertion will have policies and procedures that would be confused by introducing a nitrox labeled cylinder into the system. So IMO, it's a valid and appropriate response from any shop to state 'no, we won't provide an air fill in a nitrox cylinder'. If someone wants to 'downgrade' their oxygen service nitrox cylinder to air only service, they can always scrape all the labels themselves and present the cylinder for an ordinary VIP.

In a partial pressure blending Nitrox enabled shop, they certainly have an option to offer a 21% nitrox fill, using the same gas systems and proceedures and analyzers and logs as they would any other nitrox fill. The small incremental cost of not actually putting the oxygen in the cylinder not withstanding, the shop is certainly justified in charging the same rate as for any other EAN fill. But in my experience, very few customers understand the difference between a 'Nitrox 21' fill, and 'Air' fill. Given the amount of time wasted explaiining the difference, training fill station operators, etc I can certainly understand why plenty of shops would take the position that it's simpler, safer and lower cost to just say 'no, we won't provide an air fill in a nitrox cylinder'.

So what's really going on when someone asks for air in their Nitrox cylinder?

1) Perhaps they have found themselves in a shop that does not offer nitrox fills and they need to go diving.

2) Perhaps they believe they will save money by asking for relatively inexpensive air fill because they feel their diving plan does not justify the benefit of using Nitrox.

3) Perhaps they wish to perform a very deep air dive.

See your options above. Every partial pressure blending fill station operation surely HOPE's you will not suceed in getting a hydrocarbon enriched air fill in your cylinder.

Finally, this discussion does not expore the posibility that the shop is using a system that produces premix nitrox... such that the Nitrox they supply is only Grade E level cleanliness. There are a rapidly increasing number of such systems coming onlline.

In the case of Fill Express, I solved this complex issue by only offering only oxygen compatible grade gases for across the board. Although in some cases we initially produce and store grade 'E' gases, we later hyperfilter everything to oxygen compatible grade. In this way for sport nitrox and air fills, we don't care what the state of the oxygen cleanliness of the cylinder presented for a fill is because our fills won't change that state of cleanliness.

-- Mark

[daniel f aleman]

Thanks for your imputMark. As many know, Fill Express offers the industry standard.

Dan

[DiveSite]

.............. As many know, Fill Express offers the industry standard.
Dan

????????

[daniel f aleman]

Fill Express, read: http://www.fillexpress.com/fills.shtml

[DiveSite]

I've heard of Fill Express. I was just curious how one shop in Florida can be the "industry standard"

[Charlie99]

I went to Sport Chalet today to get my doubles filled. One of the two tanks had a NITROX sticker on it, which hasn't been a problem in the past. The genius that filled my tanks only filled one side (he shut off the isolation valve) stating that it was illegal to fill the tank labeled NITROX with air. He showed me a copy of an article that appeared in March, 2007 Northwest Diving News that stated on page 33 "It is illegal to thereafter fill that cylinder with air until the dedicated markings are removed."

I offered to remove the NITROX label, but was told that I would have to take it home, remove the label, then bring them in the next day. I thought it was silly to only fill one tank in a set of doubles.

I'm going to follow up to see what statute specifically states that bottles can only be filled with the media as labeled. Has anyone else heard of such a thing?

SteveAre your doubles O2 clean?

Would you still consider them O2 clean if you HAD gotten an airfill of grade E air ?

[Azotino]

if you think that guy it was a fillmonkey ......what are you?????
Think about the reasons...if you leave the sticker on it.
What I know I don't want to refill any O²dedicates tanks contaminated with any hydrocarbons and etc :furious::furious::furious::furious::furious:

[drbill]

Interesting responses (at least the few pages I've read). Neither fill station here on Catalina will fill tanks labeled Nitrox with air. I don't know about the legal issues, but this is their shop fill policy.

Of course I hope no one ever fills my air tank with "death gas." Most standard Nitrox blends (> 30%) would probably kill me.

[Azotino]

Interesting responses (at least the few pages I've read). Neither fill station here on Catalina will fill tanks labeled Nitrox with air. I don't know about the legal issues, but this is their shop fill policy.

Of course I hope no one ever fills my air tank with "death gas." Most standard Nitrox blends (> 30%) would probably kill me.

Isn't a legal issue...safety first, they talking for safety in Scuba diving and after they complain about a refill.

You can refill a tank dedicated to NITROX with air ,but you are going to use the same "Hyper" clean air used for the NITROX.

Or you can to refill with normal air, but your are going to take off the sticker(is better if the employee do it), in this way next time, if you want to use NITROX you are going to clean the tanks.

[drbill]

I checked with my LDS (Scuba Luv) here on Catalina. They will fill a Nitrox stickered tank with air IF it comes from the Nitrox blending station (which uses hyperfiltered air). To do so requires that someone is present in the shop with the proper training to use the system.

[Charlie99]

I checked with my LDS (Scuba Luv) here on Catalina. They will fill a Nitrox stickered tank with air IF it comes from the Nitrox blending station (which uses hyperfiltered air). Now here's a trickier question. How about a tank that has a nitrox sticker, but does NOT have an O2 clean sticker? Will they fill that with regular old air that hasn't been hyperfiltered.

In some areas people can get nitrox fills in non-O2 clean tanks, from membrane systems or prebanked nitrox. There shouldn't be any problem getting regular grade E air fills for those tanks.

[Dan Gibson]

Closing an isolator certainly calls into question the fill operator's knowledge.


if you think that guy it was a fillmonkey ......what are you?????
Think about the reasons...if you leave the sticker on it.
What I know I don't want to refill any O²dedicates tanks contaminated with any hydrocarbons and etc :furious::furious::furious::furious::furious:

[Northeastwrecks]

A person who actually has clue what they are doing will look at the content label to determine what is in the tank. The O2 clean sticker identifies the tank as being suitable for O2 service. The nitrox bumper sticker is merely intended to keep people from accidentally grabbing a tank that they shouldn't use. Since we're talking about doubles, that doesn't seem particularly likely.

What is by far the most troubling aspect of this issue is that the fill idiot (he doesn't deserve the lofty title of fill monkey) shut off the isolator. The worst case involves an OOG situation. Its much more likely that the diver would end up on a boat, or at a dive site, when they discover that they got a bad fill and that they have half the gas that they should have received.

Whether the shop fills nitrox is not relevant. If they can pump hyperfiltered air, then they should have filled both tanks. If they can't, then removing the O2 clean sticker after checking with the diver would be appropriate. But to fill only one of the cylinders is absolute, unmitigated idiocy. Its also ineffective, since the diver would, hopefully, have opened the isolator when they found that (i) their primary wasn't working; or (ii) their SPG read zero.

There's no question that the shop in question should be avoided until they get their act together.