Dive Float , Use, or not use..

[Wreck/Tec]

In N.Y. State it's law, you must use a dive float. During the winter when the marine traffic is gone, I don't always. Not living in other states, are there any other states with similar laws? Do other divers bother with floats. If you use them do you like them and why. What tricks, if any, do you use to make their use easier and or satisfy the law? Wreck/Tec wants to know!

[chickdiver]

Florida requires a float/flag also. BIG ticket for not doing so.

[ericfine50]

MA requires one as well. 60 dollar fine if you are caught without one. I sometimes don't use on in the winter.

Eric

[Grumpydiver1]

If you don't use one, you can get fined. And even though the Jet Ski drivers think they are out there for a slalom course, the reason I use them is safety. Diving is expensive enough as it is without having to pay a fine for being stupid.

[Wreck/Tec]

I live in Upstate N.Y., Here they will fine you $50.00 and a $25.00 SURGHARGE. You may have heard we're the Tax state. I was also curious what others may have done to their floats To make them multi purpose. Let me explain, I have a float with a 7.60x16 innertube for it's core. I wrapped a red/white/and black float cover made of ballistic nylon around it. The kind that zipped across the middle on top , basic dive cover. I mounted a plastic milk crate in the center of the tube and inflated it so the tube engulfs the crate tightly. The cover is streched tightly around the tube and crate body. The crate handles are exposed so I can carry it easily. I tied the latch of the cover where the float line hooks, to the bottom of the crate and replaced it with a larger brass ring so it wouldn't pull off as easily. I took a 16" piece of 1/2 " copper tubing with a soldered cap on one end and tied it in one corner of the crate to insert the shaft of the dive flag in. I drilled a hole in the shaft where the flag bottom is and mounted a ring through the flag and shaft where I hook a bungee to through the ring and secure it to the crate. Then I took a Trident strobe and secured that to the top of the shaft where the flag ends. It protrudes about 3" above the flag and gives me 360 deg. visual coverage on cloudy days or night dives. I mounted two lines with hooks that hang down 3 ' ea on opposing sides of the float body for hanging gear on. I use a yellow nylon 1/4" line, 400' long wrapped around an orange electrical cord hanger with a large caribeaner, (The type you have to pull the body cover down to open and or close it) hooked through it's body so I can snap it to my harness. I'm always looking for ideas, talk to me.........

[ericfine50]

woo... Got a pic? I just have a generic flag and float and use a spool.

Eric

[Groundhog246]

Except for the occasional Quarry dive, we put out the flag. Depending on the site we may carry, or let it sit in one spot. I've been told it's proper to carry with you and I've been told, you're not supposed to. As far as I know there's no provicial law in Ontario (correct me if there si), park rules in Tobermory require a dive flag.

[Wreck/Tec]

Eric
I'm not real sharp with the computer, ( sending pictures and all) we can do one of two things..........Send me a PM with your address if my attempt to get the pictures sent fails. I have to get my daughter to help tonight, OK.

[ericfine50]

No biggie - I get the idea.

Thanks
Eric

[Dr. Jay]

It's the law in Florida.

Here's a link to info on the law...

http://www.floridaconservation.org/law/diver-down-flag.htm .

Plus, with some dive charters, they just follow the flag and pick you up. You don't even have to navigate back to the boat :D

[Iguana Don]

In Oklahoma it's LAW, not sure why, maybe so the PWC can have a slalom course or something like that.

All PWC owners and riders must be exterminated with extreme predjudice!

[Fetch]

A fake "flag" with a proximity detector and some explosives.

My father has a house in Livingston... I've learned to despise most PWC operators.

jeff


Iguana Don once bubbled...
In Oklahoma it's LAW, not sure why, maybe so the PWC can have a slalom course or something like that.

All PWC owners and riders must be exterminated with extreme predjudice!

[Dr. Jay]

Let me know once you get those proximity explosives.

Put me down for a case!


(Reckless PWC User)--> :flamy: :mgun:

[Wreck/Tec]

How about some of our brothers across the oceans! What sort of protocall do you have if any relating to dive floats.
Wreck/Tec

[FredT]

Dr. Jay once bubbled...
It's the law in Florida.

Here's a link to info on the law...

http://www.floridaconservation.org/law/diver-down-flag.htm .



After checking out the link above it now appears that there is finally now a mechanism to deal with boaters using the flag as a race turn pylon. It used to be the fine imposed for hitting a diver was the cost of having the prop straightened!

Of course the REAL question comes down to how many boaters are fined for running over divers. I expect the numbers prosecuted each year can easily be counted on the fingers of one hand.

BTW I have been run over more than once while diving with flags. one of the offenders was a 85' USCG vessel who put 3' of green water over the bow of the anchored boat, while going between the anchored boat (with flag on both the boat and the trailing line) and the flag on the anchor pendant. No action was taken against the USCG Lt' Commander in charge of the 85'er.

Even in a case where the offending boat went between two dive boats flying multiple flags anchored less than 100' feet apart, and all registration numbers were recorded by MULTIPLE witnesses on both boats no action was taken. That prop missed my wife's head by less than 6" horizontally as it dug furrows in the bottom!

The primary use for the flag in Fla is as a fine revenue generator for the state to use AGAINST divers, and to mark divers for inspection during bug season. It's practical use as a safety device is questionable at best, and may have the effect of INCREASING the diver's danger in many cases!

FT

[Dr. Jay]

FredT once bubbled...
The primary use for the flag in Fla is as a fine revenue generator for the state to use AGAINST divers...

Now, if we could only get the kind of support they give manatees, we'd be alright.

For those of you that live in FL, you know what I mean. Pretty sad when the sea cow gets more protection than divers...ugh! :shaking:

[Wreck/Tec]

I'd like to be able to say N.Y. takes care of it's divers, but , I can't. We here are merely a money generating cash crop. They seek you out if your close to swimming areas, private property, or municipal interests so you may be fined and continue a cash flow that has no end in sight. In those events where you may have injured or killed and were able to harvest a number off the offending boater, save the dime! They contribute more to the coffers of the state through registrations, and launch fees. How pathetic..........

[Dectek]

New Jersey Lawmakers feel that a float with a 14" X 16" rigid Diver down flag will keep you safe. It is against the law to surface more than 25 feet from the bouyed flag. (Except in an Emergency)It is also punishable to operate a vessel closer than 50 feet from the bouyed flag. (unless your friend has a faster ski-doo and you can pass him by taking a short cut over a diver).
I have taken boating classes put out by the USCG flotilla (not required) and taken the state required Personal Water Craft training to get a PWC Drivers License and nobody has ever brought up the description of a diver down flag in lecture or print.
BTW: new Bug Min is 3 5/16" and July of 2003 is 3 11/32.

[WreckWriter]

Dr. Jay once bubbled...
Pretty sad when the sea cow gets more protection than divers...ugh! :shaking:

They deserve more protection than most divers.

[TCDiver1]

Wreck/Tec once bubbled...
Then I took a Trident strobe and secured that to the top of the shaft where the flag ends. It protrudes about 3" above the flag and gives me 360 deg. visual coverage on cloudy days or night dives. be careful with the strobe use. I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods but on the Great Lakes a strobe is considered a distress signal. The CG gets a little miffed if they scramble a helo and drop a rescue swimmer for non-distressed divers. Great idea if you only use it in the event of an emergency but don't recommend using it otherwise.

We use those high intensity cylume sticks to mark our flag at night

[Norm]

I use them 99% of the time because it's a $90.00 fine/diver if enforced. (They seldom enforce it but I con't have a spare $90.00 lying around)
Norm

[crf8]

WreckWriter once bubbled...


They deserve more protection than most divers.

Wreck...,
I see you live in FL. so you should already know that the Manatee Club's agenda is to stop power-boating in the state, a little at a time. So unless you dive from shore, divers (as well as fisherman & waterskier) need to wake up !!
http://www.cfwbrevard.org/ :(

[Dr. Jay]

Good point crf8

I recently saw a news story on how the manatee numbers were getting much greater now. They even considered taking them off the endangered species list.

Anyone have any experience with "the manatee problem"? I haven't seen any new discussions in light of the recent studies. Only mentioned in one thread in FL divers board (see link below)
http://www.scubaboard.com/t19922/s.html

This is probably something that will effect FL divers greatly.

[Rice]

The ONLY reason the manatee numbers went up was thaere was a really strong cold snap the day they count all the manatees so a greate percentage of them were in palces they are easily counted. There was no manatee spanish fly in the water adn there were plenty of deaths in the last year.

This was just a statistical manipulation by people that want to drive thier boats wherever they want at whatever speed they want. same people who use dive flags as slalom bouys. it's time for a required boating course.
Rice

[crf8]

you're right about the stat minipulation; but its the manatee clubs lawyers & lobbysts that are playing games. This is a money issue for them, not environmental. Call the manatee club, ask a question; all they want is a solicitation...send your cash to pay the lawyers. I guess you don't even own a boat, I see you live in Florida. Try going idle speed several hours (in the 100 degree heat) in a river 10 miles wide, because a manatee might happen by. Boaters were environmentalists before manatee club existed. Why do you think were out there. The animals are killed by commercial boats, fishing lines & nets, lock doors, loss of habitat to waterfront homes, and inability to migrate due to warm water discharge at power plants. Try to shut all that down.

http://www.cfwbrevard.org/

[Groundhog246]

crf8 once bubbled...
I guess you don't even own a boat, I see you live in Florida. Try going idle speed several hours (in the 100 degree heat) in a river 10 miles wide, because a manatee might happen by. Boaters were environmentalists before manatee club existed.
I agree that the speed zones may not be the best method, perhaps a total ban on boating in some areas? But your Boaters were environmentalists is IMHO blatantly untrue. I've seen way too many powerboaters, carelessly spilling fuel while filling up, especially filling from jerry cans, pumping oil filled bilge water over the side and tossing beer cans and other garbage over the side. Two-stroke outboards dump 100's of quarts of unburnt oil out their exhaust (thus many areas are banning use of two-stroke engines). Not to say there are not environmentally conscious (friendly) boaters, but not the majority of them.
Locally at least, even with recent requirements for an "operators proficiency" card to legally operate a power boat and dive flags are included in the study materials, most boaters still don't recognize one. Or even if they do, they pay as much attention to dive flags as they do to no wake zones and speed limits. In my home port, the local Coast Guard cutter's Captain feels the "No Wake" restriction, IN the marina, does not apply to them, so they save 30 seconds getting through the breakwall and bash everyones boat around in the process. It's a municipal marina and they lease space, rumours are the lease may not be renewed due to numerous complaints.

[Dr. Jay]

Rice once bubbled...
it's time for a required boating course
Actually, unless you were born before Sept. 29, 1980, you have to take a boater's safety course to operate a boat in FL (if I am not mistaken).


Rice once bubbled...
This was just a statistical manipulation by people that want to drive thier boats wherever they want at whatever speed they want. same people who use dive flags as slalom bouys.

Groundhog246 once bubbled...
Not to say there are not environmentally conscious (friendly) boaters, but not the majority of them.
Seems like we're making some generalizations here (heh...Groundhog, yours wasn't as bad :) )

Anyone have any scientific evidence to put here? Seems the only place I got informed was the boaters website :confused:. There seems to be a lot of 'politiking' going on (for lack of a better word ;) ).

BTW - If manatees hear the sounds of faster moving boats better, think it would be possible (with how well sound travels in water) to create something that creates some sort of advanced warning. Really, if someone told you that you could no longer take a boat to get to your dive site and you had to swim 1-2 miles to the site, wouldn't you be a little ticked?

There has got to be a better solution than just stopping boating altogether.

[Groundhog246]

Dr. Jay once bubbled...
Really, if someone told you that you could no longer take a boat to get to your dive site and you had to swim 1-2 miles to the site, wouldn't you be a little ticked?

There has got to be a better solution than just stopping boating altogether.

The "stop boating" was meant to be "tongue in cheek". Since the government applies the same regulations to all boats, power and sail, I'm not in favour of more regulation. Since a lot of the "damage" to manatees is prop damage, perhaps jet drives would be in order? Of course, think of the impact of a sailboat fin keel (mines a ton of cast iron and extends 4 feet down) moving at 5 knots. And it's not making any noise at all. I'm afraid there's no real solution. As long as Manatee's and boats share the same waters, there will be collisions, the question is how many is acceptable.

On the dive flag topic (this thread), if the Florida boating course is a good as the one here, it might as well not exist. I'd also be curious to know how many here recognize
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/scoutnotebook/communicator/maritime/a-icon.gif as a dive flag? I fly both the red & white dive flag and the Alpha flag when we're diving of my boat and I've had too many people ask "what's that you're flying?". Unless we require boaters to meet some real standards and proof of boat handling abilities, this is a problem that won't go away.

[WreckWriter]

I've lived in Florida most of my life and operated boats here for many years. As a retired captain I feel that several things are needed....

First, enforce the existing laws. Second, require more training for private boaters. The level of skill and knowledge of your average recreational boater is virtually nil. Any idiot with the money can buy a 70 mph boat and go out and "use" it.

The currently required course is nearly useless.

I can remember when one would see a manatee nearly every day, now, they're rare enough to draw crowds at docks when they come around and their backs, every one of them, are covered with prop scars.

Jet skis? Ban them in navigable waters, allow in small lakes only.

Tom

[kpauley]

crf8 once bubbled...
Boaters were environmentalists before manatee club existed. Why do you think were out there. [

LMAO - (wiping the tears from my eyes) that has got to be the funniest things I have read on this board yet!!!

I thought they bought power boats so that could throw their empties farther from shore? Some seem to think that if they take their dates from from shore they can convince them to take the bikini tops off.

What other reasons do power boaters have? anyone else have some good suggestions? Maybe I could start a new thread?

[Dr. Jay]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
First, enforce the existing laws.
As far as I know, they’re being enforced. I see people getting popped all the time. Maybe there are just too many laws out there for the poor cops to keep track of their heads are spinning! Ok....really....if we’re talking about enforcing the laws here, what about the laws for emission control (sorry for the deviation)? Don’t you hate getting stuck behind someone with a ‘Blue Haze’? There’s an environmental concern that’s violated all to often (among other non-water oriented environmental concerns). That’s not to say that the laws shouldn’t be enforced. It just seems that there are other violaters out there that we’re turning our head to. What about the nuclear power plants that create warm water which draws the manatees, and in turn mucks up their migration pattern? Maybe we’re barking up the wrong tree here? Bigger problems before smaller ones? Seems the boaters are fighting a loosing battle with environmentalists on their turf here. Money talks! Okay...I’m rambling on this one...but...

WreckWriter once bubbled...
The currently required course is nearly useless.
Sorry, can’t say much about the course. I missed the requirement by one day. But I do agree that more education couldn’t hurt. After all, education is important. Along those lines, I have to share a little story about the ‘idiot’ boater...
On a recent trip to Homosassa for scalloping, we were transiting through the mouth of the river on the pontoon boat headed into the gulf, when I noticed a few ‘geniuses’ flying by, bow high out of the water. I’m wondering, “aren’t their rocks submerged just a few feet below the surface?” We ended up hitting one, and we barely made it over idle. Tore up a perfectly good prop! It would have been ‘entertaining’ to see one of those guys hit a huge rock...justice :D


WreckWriter once bubbled...
Jet skis? Ban them in navigable waters, allow in small lakes only.
Good luck! Those things are just too much darn fun. Well, I’ve only used one in a semi-large lake with no manatees, but I got that thing cookin’. Hmm....maybe not banning, but the previous idea of proximity explosives on the dive flags would do nice for open water idiots ;) Heh...ok...just trollin’.


kpauley once bubbled...
What other reasons do power boaters have?
I’m not sure what your going for here, but are you saying that all boaters are not environmentalists :question:. Maybe I should start a poll to see how many boaters there are on this board?

Okay, let me give you a “reason” for your new thread.....

I consider myself a boater (even though I don’t own one yet – I’m still trying to pay my way through college). As I hope to own one in the future, I would like to ensure a future for boating in the state of Florida. Here goes...

I use a boat because I like the water. It’s relaxing! I became a boater before I became a diver, and did both for similar reasons. Now, I’m not perfect, but...I don’t throw my trash overboard, I don’t drive like an anus, and I don’t hold bikini parties...although, if you know someone who is holding one of those parties let me know :hula:. Am I doing anything wrong here? So please don’t lump me in to some category.

And finally, an end to this post!...yep, there is an end here

I think Groundhog posed a good question...

Groundhog246 once bubbled...
As long as Manatee's and boats share the same waters, there will be collisions, the question is how many is acceptable.
Maybe that should be the topic for debate here instead of just pointing fingers. I’m sure eventually a better solution will be reached. There is always a better solution....

[Rice]

How may of you think that manatees are not worthy of endangered species classification?

or even better, how many manatees have you seen without any prop marks?

There are better solutions out there than bare props. there is a current lawsuit with one of the major outboard manufacturers concerning their patent of a prop-guard and both not using it and not allowing others to manufacture it.

As divers I would have thought that this board would act more enlightened when it comes to the dangers of powerboats. There are many deaths each year due to people getting run over adn even though my instructor and yours taught us to spin around looking for boats as we ascend, if a boat is doing even ten knots we're sitting ducks. I've often felt liek a manatee when diving in shallow water.

Maybe we should be pushing for prop guards or ducted jets or something!

I'm well aware that two stroke motors are not happy idleing for hours down a river in a manatee zone. Maybe you should get a four stroke? You might enjoy the lack of oily smog while you're idling.
Or better yet get a friggin kayack

Driving a jet ski within a mile of other people should be illegal. Those things have got tho be the best example of enjoyment at the cost of others I have ever experienced. It may be fun but it's selfish as Hades!
HTH,
Rice

[crf8]

ACTUALLY ALL MY ENGINES HAVE BEEN 4 STOKE IOs. Engines are happy, people are not. Besides you have entire towns dumping sewage into a waterway and you're worried about a bit of burned oil.
I have a good friend thats been a FL fish & game supervisor for 30 yrs., grew up in Florida on the water. He says there's never been as many manatee sightings as there have been in last 3 yrs. Manatee rules already are ruining the sport of water ski/wakeboard, and they are working on fishing next. Sooner or later it will dive time. Did you know its illegal to approach a manatee? How many divers have done that?
but back to diver safety...I wonder how many divers know what & where a channel is in a waterway? Can you read the navigation aids, other than the multitude of conflicting manatee warnings> ?
Do you know which is preferred channel? Have you looked at a nautical map before you dive there? You can't play golf on a highway, same goes for the water.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020218/manatee.html

[Dr. Jay]

Rice once bubbled...
Maybe we should be pushing for prop guards or ducted jets or something!
Don't think a prop guard would help much. The blunt trauma would probably do you in.

This is really irrelevant, anyway. If you say close to your dive flag (which is also a FL law) and the boaters stay away from your dive flag (which was a law mentioned previously) then there should be no problem with boats and divers. Although, this is not a perfect world :rolleyes:.

This brings up another question. How many of you have been driving down the highway and seen someone "blow your doors off"? Now, as you see that lunatic cruising by, do you say "Dang, these cops should enforce the laws!"? Hmm...if you are one of these people, you need a hobby :D. I'm sure if this idiot blew by a cop, the cop would have no problem giving the idiot the runaround. Cops can't be everywhere at all times. Hopefully we can realize that.

Just MHO ;) ...with a little bit of rambling

[mddolson]

I'm in Ontario, we don't have a Law requiring the use of a float and flag yet.
I use a float selectively, which means sometimes. When I dive the St Lawrence River, and cross over to the USA (NY) side it is required by Law.
When I'm diving in a non-boat traffic area I don't use one. When I'm in a boat traffic area, fishing and cruisers I tow a float. If my diving activity is localised and I can stay within 50 ft of the float, I tie it off. Less hassle, and risk of entanglement.
Now If I'm diving in a JET SKI frequented area, I tend not to use a float. I prefer them not to know I'm there. I treat it like and overhead environment, horizontal exit. I'm not bashing all jet skiers, but I've had my float used as a slolom course too many times.

MikeD
:blfish: