LP95 Doubles

[Satori]

Hey all...Do I truly need to take a class to dive doubles in open water? I have 2 LP95's I like to turn into a set. I currently have apeks regs (adding long hose) and use a dive rite BP/W w/ standard harness. I know I would need a different wing but would this be a good decision? Any comments appreciated.

SS

[JCDdiver]

Sure, if you feel comfortable enough. I don't see any problems with it. Especially if you are planning on going into tech. diving. The more practice with your doubles the better.

[do it easy]

It helps to have someone with you who knows what they are doing, whether that is an instructor or a buddy is up to you.

[fishb0y]

You will need another wing, but I would find someone who dives doubles and you'll be fine

[tstormdiver]

I am going to try to dive double LP85's for the first time this weekend. I am buddying up with a couple of cave divers that have some experience in doubles & are willing to help show me the ropes of how to handle them, in open water of course. Although I know of a few divers that taught themselves to use doubles on their own, I guess I'm not that brave. I'd rather have someone familiar with them to give me a hand, if I get into a pinch.

[scott&sara]

Just get a buddy that has been diving doubles... make sure the bands are in the correct location on the tanks so you will be trimmed correctly, etc.

We first dove doubles about 4 years ago and we were made to believe it was going to be so difficult, etc. After one dive to play around, check trim, roll over and upside-down I felt like I was diving them forever.

Except for tropical dive trips I NEVER dive single tanks any longer! The balance and trim is awesome. Give it a shot and you will never look back.

Scott

[Spratman]

Depends on what you plan to do with them. I dive HP120 singles with a stage bottle. I run out of NDL before gas. Also, it's WAY easier schlepping up the boat ladder with a single than doubles, especially in rough seas.

I will be doubling my 120's when I start doing deco. But for the majority of the rec wrecks, singles work well. LP120's can be pumped up to @160cf. That's the equivalent of doubled 80's. Of course, I'm liable to get stoned for saying it....:D

[Azotino]

Just dive shallow, take time and relax............

[Captain CaveMan]

I have hp130 and dive open water. But I do penetrate wrecks so the back up gas is nice to have for me and my buddy

[ae3753]

The best route is either to find a good mentor or take a course. Fortunately, you're in the northern california and have a lot of options. We were interested in doubles last year, and took a one day mini course (mini-doubles report (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=126005)). For us, that was the best way to get introduced to doubles.

[metaldector]

While it is nice for everyone posting to encourge you to just go for it, it is a little more challenging than they make it out to be. Sure you can strap on a set of doubles and dive. The extended dive gas gives you more bottom time and could get you into deco status. Do you know how to do deco? What if your right post free flows? Do you know how to isolate one tank from another. Are you competent to switch to your safe second? What if you don't have your hoses positioned correctly and they are blocking your access to your valves, how do you control your gas? Lastly, any fool can strap on a set of doubles, but it takes some training to know how to save yourself if something goes wrong. You may not require an instructor to train you, but you should have a compentent dive buddie to assist you in learning. Now, everyone reach back over your right shoulder and isolet that center post. It isn't easy.

[crpntr133]

From experience..at least find someone that knows what they are doing.

[CompuDude]

I agree. Have a buddy who is experienced with diving doubles go with you. They should be able to give some general tips on handling them (literally), and teach you the basics re valve drills. Once you know your drills and are all trimmed out it should be business as usual.

[Ben_ca]

How much total diving experience do you have? How's your comfort and skill in the water..

if you are solid in a single a double will be no problem...

but if you cannot keep still in a single you might be asking for trouble....

[scubanick]

i tried my doubles(LP104s) on my own..not that anyone should if they dont want to..
i bought them from a friend at a LDS and they were already filled bands and valves attached where he was goin to make a dive a few years before and got blown out
i was so afraid i was gone be like a turtle in its back if i ever got flipped over when i first got in the water but they are awesome.. i like to dive them as often as i can..
which isnt much..but i was surprised how well stable they felt

[2Cents]

While it is nice for everyone posting to encourge you to just go for it, it is a little more challenging than they make it out to be. Sure you can strap on a set of doubles and dive. The extended dive gas gives you more bottom time and could get you into deco status. Do you know how to do deco? What if your right post free flows? Do you know how to isolate one tank from another. Are you competent to switch to your safe second? What if you don't have your hoses positioned correctly and they are blocking your access to your valves, how do you control your gas? Lastly, any fool can strap on a set of doubles, but it takes some training to know how to save yourself if something goes wrong. You may not require an instructor to train you, but you should have a compentent dive buddie to assist you in learning. Now, everyone reach back over your right shoulder and isolet that center post. It isn't easy.

Great points metaldector!

[Tim Greaves]

I dive double LP95's and double LP72's and never had trainning on it.. Its just a little getting used to with the added weight but nothing worth taking a class for..

[ReefHound]

metaldector, I don't think anyone is saying that it's OK to train yourself for overhead environments or deco diving. They are talking about getting the feel for it. Getting into the water, maintaining trim/buoyancy, and getting back out. Dive it like a single and stick to rec profiles. When they are ready for the next step, take the class. Then the class can focus on the advanced content and not basic buoyancy skills.

[tstormdiver]

Another thing I would add, take your time & go shallow until you're comfortable with the set up. I learned this one the hard way & did my first dive deep & ran into all kinds of trouble. Here's the thread I opened on it. http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=195999 . I was lucky & had some good buddies to help me pull my fat out of the fire.

[Eagle Ray]

Way to go Metal Dector! You can put on doubles and jump in the open water and most people do ok. But some people assemble the doubles and get in the water and don't do ok. The gear setup involved in doubles is much more involved than with a single tank if you're talking about backplates, wings, and a harness. There are many different ways to adjust this gear, and malfunctions become much more complicated. If you dive double's with no training and don't happen to run across a malfunction consider yourself lucky, and if you do get a malfunction do you know how to handle it proficiently?

[ArcticDiver]

If you don't have your buoyancy and trim down cold with a single tank don't do doubles yet. Get those nailed with a single tank first. Knowing what good buoyancy and trim feels like before adding the additional weight and mass of doubles helps a lot.

Get someone to go with you who knows the "why" of the various buoyancy and trim issues that may erupt.

Don't do it in conjunction with other training. Doubles by themselves are quite enough.

[ReefHound]

The gear setup involved in doubles is much more involved than with a single tank if you're talking about backplates, wings, and a harness. There are many different ways to adjust this gear, and malfunctions become much more complicated.

I didn't realize BP/W was a gear setup unique to doubles?

[darylm74]

I was used to a BP/W when I tried doubles, so I sort of used to the set up. You definitely want to get a double's wing though. Get them in the shallows and stay there till you're comfortable and then venture deeper. I wouldn't take them any deeper than 30 ft or so until you are used to them, but buddying up with someone, that has double's experience is not a necessity. I will say, however, like most things, it is nice to have someone to bounce your questions off of and it always helps. I say go for it, but if you have some input from others, then you are better off.

[xiSkiGuy]

Don't do it in conjunction with other training. Doubles by themselves are quite enough.I agree with this. I've seen several people not learn as much from their training in Basic Cave or Advanced Nitrox because they were trying to figure out their new doubles.

But that said, if you are inclined toward research, there is plenty of information out there for you to learn how a doubles manifold works or how to adjust the setup. I don't think you have to take a class or have buddy show you the ropes. It probably speeds up the learning curve, but isn't necessary. I figured it all out on my own, and didn't find it difficult at all.

I used this to figure out how to assemble the doubles: http://diveriteexpress.com/library/doubles.shtml

I watched the 5thD-X (http://www.5thd-x.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=107) videos for info on trim and valve management.

[JCDdiver]

metaldector, I don't think anyone is saying that it's OK to train yourself for overhead environments or deco diving. They are talking about getting the feel for it. Getting into the water, maintaining trim/buoyancy, and getting back out. Dive it like a single and stick to rec profiles. When they are ready for the next step, take the class. Then the class can focus on the advanced content and not basic buoyancy skills.

Well said ReefHound.

[TSandM]

Doubles aren't that complicated, and there are plenty of resources for getting things figured out. I did do my transition to doubles with people who already dove them, but I really don't remember them having to help me much, except to get some idea of how much weight I'd need (which, as it turned out, wasn't much help, because I needed a great deal more than my friends did).

Even if you can't do a valve drill at first (and I couldn't) you are no WORSE off with a malfunction than you are with a single tank.

There are videos of valve shutdowns on the web, and the 5thD-x Intro to Tech video is an excellent one to buy.

Figuring out balance and trim in doubles is challenging, but you can do it yourself. It's not rocket science, although recognizing that the reason you are diving feet LOW is because you are HEAD heavy is counterintuitive. Once you have identified the problem, it's just a matter of moving ballast around until you're balanced.

I think it's absolutely imperative to start diving doubles well in advance of any advanced scuba training you are going to take in them. And ArcticDiver is also right, in my opinion -- Make sure your balance and trim are completely dialled in before you transition, and the transition will be WAY easier. I've seen people do it both ways, and I'm convinced.

[limeyx]

Even if you can't do a valve drill at first (and I couldn't) you are no WORSE off with a malfunction than you are with a single tank.


i don't 100% agree with this.
Doubles can be more dangerous than singles (even when used like "large singles") due to the presence of the isolator.

This is not rocket science, but you can get a number of issues that you just dont get so much with singles.

- tanks filled with isolator closed, giving a dangerous mix.
- diving with isolator closed -- SPG will not drop (a lot of people say "of course I'd notice this instantly" but in practice, especially since you will be more task loaded, you may not)
- diving with left post closed -- SPG will not drop
- a valve becomes closed during a dive.

Again, not rocket science, but I think good reasons for at least having someone familiar with doubles help out for the first couple of dives, and really cover these issues.

[ReefHound]

limey, good points but what really needs to be covered beyond what you said in your post? I think anyone dumb enough to dive with the isolator or posts closed will be winning a Darwin award eventually anyway.

[texdiveguy]

limey, good points but what really needs to be covered beyond what you said in your post? I think anyone dumb enough to dive with the isolator or posts closed will be winning a Darwin award eventually anyway.

LOL...it happens though.....even divers forget to turn on the gas on singles.....now you have 3 knobs!

[texdiveguy]

Make sure your balance and trim are completely dialled in before you transition, and the transition will be WAY easier. I've seen people do it both ways, and I'm convinced.

We are never completely 'dialed in' if you dive various enviroments and gear configurations---BUT I understand your point!.....it is very advisable to have a handle on diving doubles prior to moving forwards into adv. level training. ;)

[texdiveguy]

I didn't realize BP/W was a gear setup unique to doubles?

Its of course not....but IMO many divers 'think' doubles when they here BP/W.

[ianr33]

I have 2 LP95's I like to turn into a set. I currently have apeks regs (adding long hose) and use a dive rite BP/W w/ standard harness.
SS

Is that plate stainless or Al? Do you dive a drysuit? Double steel tanks are heavy.Make sure you will not be hugely overweighted.

[limeyx]

limey, good points but what really needs to be covered beyond what you said in your post? I think anyone dumb enough to dive with the isolator or posts closed will be winning a Darwin award eventually anyway.

Easier than it sounds mate. Especially if you dont know about isolators and what to expect if they are open/closed etc. (and not even going into post vs. valve failures)

Might sound "obvious" but to newcomers, it can be anything but.

Trim and weighting also stand out as not necessarily 'complex' but if you have a friend/mentor that has already gone through the pain of AL/Steel plates, trim, different wings, it can definitely help I would say.

Also, if you want to go beyond using doubles like a bigger set of singles, then yes, I would say you do need a class to drill into you the implications of handling different failures.

[texdiveguy]

I learned to dive doubles on my own....course like many asked questions//saw a few videos//read a few books....but pretty much just got after it.

[ArcticDiver]

Don't overthink or over analyze what transitioining to doubles is.

Although they are often thought of together in fact transitioning to doubles and extended range/overhead diving are two different things. A person can use doubles without going into overhead or extended range situations. Many people who render advise mixed the two so don't really think of them separate.

So, get your buoyancy and trim nailed using a single tank. While you are at it get a pretty good idea of your gas consumption under a variety of circumstances. Depending on your physiology you may have dramatically different rates of consumption under different conditions.

Then, either take formal instruction, or have someone who thoroughly understands the applicable issues help you set up your doubles and shepard you whiile you get them under control.

Then make the gear changes using doubles will entail. For example, in my case the fins I used for single tanks were just too flexible for doubles. The added resistance of the extra tanks and gear caused the fins to unload their thrust to soon. So, I went slow and got tired and didn't get anywhere.

Other people have had to change wings, or other gear.

After you have your doubles dialed in and you are able to do decent valve drills take the courses you need to do the deco/overhead diving you want. Or, never take the courses and continue the dives you are already doing but without the need to change tanks as often. Your option.

Simple in concept. Not so simple in exection.

[nereas]

Hey all...Do I truly need to take a class to dive doubles in open water? I have 2 LP95's I like to turn into a set. I currently have apeks regs (adding long hose) and use a dive rite BP/W w/ standard harness. I know I would need a different wing but would this be a good decision? Any comments appreciated.

SS

A common tenent of safe diving is to obtain appropriate instruction for new conditions.

When you got your C-card for single tanks, you were given that instruction as it related to a single tank.

When moving onto double tanks, you should also get that kind of instruction.

All you may need is a pool session with a tech instructor. All he needs to show you is valve drills, air sharing, buoyancy adjustment, and trim. And out of the water, you need an explanation of the isolator's functioning.

So, yes, you need some kind of instruction, although not necessarily a "class."

[nereas]

I learned to dive doubles on my own....course like many asked questions//saw a few videos//read a few books....but pretty much just got after it.

DVDs certainly count as "instruction." The medium is silicon-based (your DVD player), however it is still instruction. The learning method is visualization. You need to pay really close attention this way, and if you are a really bright student, it works fine.

I learned about doubles in a tech class with an instructor. He was a great instructor who gave us a lot of good tips.

On the other hand, I learned about DPVs with the DVD that came with it, and that worked well also. But operating a DPV is a lot easier than operating doubles. So it all depends on the situation.

[nereas]

LOL...it happens though.....even divers forget to turn on the gas on singles.....now you have 3 knobs!

With doubles and with manifolds, there are a lot of issues with how to turn on the 3 knobs, either all the way, or 5 turns, or 1 turn, etc.

A good tech instructor can help you with issues like this, whereas an amateur buddy might lead you astray.