Dutch Springs Unsafe

[Andy2525]

This past weekend my local dive store did a trip to Dutch Springs, and while the diving was good the service was horrible. Since they let instructors park in the parking lot near the entrance to the water that is where we parked. We were told that you could not double park in that lot, which is fine, but since when is a trailer considered a second car? Their rules say that you must have a buddy to enter the water, so a group of three entered the water, did our dive and one finished early and did not feel like having to carry her BCD back out and making the long surface swim so we took her BCD. Upon exiting the water never once were we asked what happened to our third diver whose equipment we had. But god help you if you try to enter the water by yourself they are all over you like flies asking a million questions as to where and when your buddy will be there. So that was the issue with the water.

Tanks
When it comes to filling tanks we all agree that they must be current vip and in hydro, and to have nitrox you must have a sticker. The staff gave us a hard time about not having the tanks O2 cleaned, which I can see their point if they were filling partial pressures, but they are not. They gave us a hard time about having nitrox stickers. What they did not give us a hard time with was the set of tanks that was two months out of VIP which we did not notice till we had returned to our shop. They had filled those tanks at least seven times that weekend and not a single one had picked up on the fact that they needed a vip. How about some due diligence? If you’re going to enforce the rules your staff should all be on the same page and rules are there to protect the divers, not just for show.

I found the diving to be nice and relaxing but the staff seemed rude and inconsiderate to the divers that support their quarry, almost as if they did not want us to be there. They have a rule where all divers must be out of the water by 6pm on Saturday, however when you exit the water at 5:45 and are getting consistently yelled at for not being off the property by 6pm it is a bit disheartening. If you wanted the divers to be off the property by 6pm why wouldn't you have them out of the water at 5pm? Nothing like paying for an amusement vacation where you can be treated like a piece of cattle. My local dive store pushed this trip all year long and they had gotten 40+ divers to go, well there are 40+ divers that will not go back to that place. The store bent over backwards to make things right and to make the divers enjoy their vacation, something that Dutch Springs failed to accomplish.

[Mr.X]

Speaking with your wallet and leaving a comment is the best method to actuate change there. Sadly, the hordes of divers descending on this place can make things difficult for divers wishing to enjoy diving without hassle, as well as staff trying to maintain and supervise this facility. If anything, I know this facility is better during the weekdays when there aren't 50,000 people swarming about.

X

[RoatanMan]

Nice first post. Long way from Massachusetts, Mr. Haley? Eh?

[pir8]

From your post I would hardly safe that the facility is unsafe and that would seem to me an unfair characterisation. Missing a VIP sticker out of how many makes you unsafe? Not rousting you for carrying an extra BC makes you unsafe? Not remembering every group of divers going in the H2O. Give me a break. For the volume of divers going through that facility on a weekendly basis they do one hell of a job.

[cgvmer]

Doesn't sound unsafe, instead it sounds poorly managed.

[caroln]

I didn't read anything in your post that convinced me that Dutch is unsafe in any way. Staff 'all over' a solo diver entering the water--annoying possibly, but unsafe, no. I would guess that they didn't ask about the third diver whose gear you guys were carrying because they probably already saw her leaving the water. They have a lot of staff around and seem to always be pretty aware of what's going on. I get the impression that the whole experience just rubbed you the wrong way, but that doesn't make the place unsafe.

[Snappahead]

Gee, I wish I had someone to carry my BCD out of the water when I'm done and "don't feel like carrying it back".....

[Epinephelus]

Nice first post! Rarely have I seen so many double-standards and so much finger pointing strung together so quickly. I don't have anything to do with Dutch Springs... thank God!
... since when is a trailer considered a second car?... Most commercial parking facilities I've been at lately with a trailer count trailers as a second vehicle. In fact, all in the last two or three years.
Their rules say that you must have a buddy to enter the water, so a group of three entered the water, did our dive and one finished early and did not feel like having to carry her BCD back out and making the long surface swim so we took her BCD. Upon exiting the water never once were we asked what happened to our third diver whose equipment we had. What's your point? Bet they already saw the third diver get out of her gear... From the tone of this post there is not one doubt in my mind that had they questioned you about it you'd be here whining about that!
But god help you if you try to enter the water by yourself they are all over you like flies asking a million questions as to where and when your buddy will be there. So that was the issue with the water. Yep... they're damned if they do ask, and damned if they don't.

When it comes to filling tanks we all agree that they must be current vip and in hydro, and to have nitrox you must have a sticker. The staff gave us a hard time about not having the tanks O2 cleaned, which I can see their point if they were filling partial pressures, but they are not. They gave us a hard time about having nitrox stickers. What they did not give us a hard time with was the set of tanks that was two months out of VIP which we did not notice till we had returned to our shop. They had filled those tanks at least seven times that weekend and not a single one had picked up on the fact that they needed a vip. How about some due diligence? If you’re going to enforce the rules your staff should all be on the same page and rules are there to protect the divers, not just for show. Another catch 22. You're whining that they want to enforce their rules on stickers, and whining that they failed to notice all your sticker infractions! Yeah, how about a little due diligence? Just whose responsibility is it to keep your tanks in current VIP??? Well, it isn't the fill station - it's you.
E

[piikki]

I wonder did you have several staff members “on your case” or did you have someone who latched onto you because he saw something and didn’t let go? Like if you tried to violate the solo rule maybe your group ended up under the magnifying glass for the weekend?

I have never been yelled at the quarry except at the parking lot where they yell at every other person (no excuse for that either) but I have never tried to break the rules either. The rule to be out of water is by 5:45pm btw, so that you can be out of gates before 6 pm. I do feel hassled at that time if we have been doing a late dive. I agree the filling station is manned with kids who do not raise much confidence the way they handle the operation most of the time.

My pet peeve with Dutch Springs has not been with safety or rudeness but the fact that they obviously favour some customers over others. There seems to be some sort of “kitchen pass” system (dive shops get in before others), and dive shops are allowed to leave their canopies etc on overnight and hog the areas. Even if the areas aren’t marked, shops act like owners when regular divers try to secure picnic tables and chase people away from “their” areas. Staff stands next to this allowing it to happen. It does not dance with me very well. If you already let them in first and let them mark spots before, then don’t give me false hope with “first come first serve”. If it isn’t going to be fair, then tell me what to expect. Staff’s not been rude but some shop reps have been rude on numerous occasions because they think they are the most important visitors.

[FastPirate]

Gee, I wish I had someone to carry my BCD out of the water when I'm done and "don't feel like carrying it back".....
ditto

[Jim Lapenta]

Have not yet been to Dutch and the more I hear about some of their practices and the crowds that go there just makes me want to not try for a weekend trip but a weekday.

As for the trailer yeah that counts as 2 vehicles in my book. As for someone not wanting to carry their BC, if they are that lazy stay out of the water that day or find another sport. Take enough air that you don't need theirs.

A trailer can carry alot of tanks. If you know you have to be out by 6 or even 5:45 you should know how long it takes you to breakdown your gear and plan accordingly. MY beef is places that descend on sites with a huge group and then expect to be treated with kid gloves when they are hogging the parking areas, the entry points with all kinds of crap, and mucking up the vis with lots of newbs.

On second thought I'll definitely stay away from Dutch on the weekends.

[Snappahead]

As for the solo diver vs. buddy thing....this is from the Dutch Springs website:

"No one is permitted to scuba dive alone- except for those individuals possessing a solo diving certification card. Solo divers (http://www.dutchsprings.com/air.htm#Solo) must fill out additional paperwork and use a dive locator. Dive locators are available for rental at Dutch Springs."

Most likely their insurance carrier is the reason why they're so "enthusiastic".....

[cdreamer]

Dutch Springs has 400-500 divers a day on the weekends and for that amount of
people I think they do a great job.
Terri

[Spratman]

Well, let's see here. DS is a private quarry. I know Stu (the owner), Kevin and Andrea (both run the day to day operations), while I have gripes with stuff that goes on, it's their property and they make the rules. As far as the staff goes, we don't call them dive nazis for the heck of it!

They have rules like being out of the water at 5pm. The staff always comes around at about 4:15 to make sure everyone understands that. Try reading the rules posted on their site.

As far as the peninsula area you talk about, you cannot park down there if you don't have a shop or instructor pass. Period. I get hassled about it every time I go down to dump my gear off. Shops bring in the most students and providing the most loot in the treasure bin. They get preferential treatment. Why? Because the owner says so. Yes, the shops also get to come in at 11pm, raise hell while setting up and disrupting everyone else thats already laid in for the night. We complained about that to Kevin, he gave them a pep talk.

As someone stated they are pushing big numbers from everywhere for students. If you are facing south, the entire eastern side is crap for viz. Hello....students!! I have my season pass, and the viz was pretty good for a while this year.

Someone has already addressed the tank viz issue. I got into a beef with them last year, regarding having an O2 cleaned tank and no nitrox sticker...So, I put voodoo gas stickers on them.

Hey, you don't have to come back. Not that we wouldn't dive with you if you showed up, but you either deal with it, play by Stu's rules, or find a mud puddle at home.

Oh, and my buddy and I got split up in the 2ft viz on the student side. He came out of the water before I did and we were talking to said DN before going in. So, he gave my buddy a peptalk, we gave him a foolish answer and said, "yes, sir, yes, sir, three bags full". Still had a great day diving!

YMMV...

EDITED: While you cannot prevent stupidity, the DM (DN's) are that way to enforce safety. They have paramedics and a doctor on staff. When an incident occurs, there is quite a response, having witnessed a non-breathing diver incident. If you want to dive where there are no rules and you can do whatever you feel like, but at DS, it's a safe place to dive.
(NOTE: I am not getting anything from Stu! Try to claim a nickel on the ground and see what happens...) :D

[deeper thoughts]

I have been to Dutch Springs a few times when I lived in NYC. I never had any problems and the staff were neither great or horrible, to be honest they kept to themselves as long you were following the rules. Just my 2 cents.

[ronbeau]

This past weekend my local dive store did a trip to Dutch Springs, and while the diving was good the service was horrible. Since they let instructors park in the parking lot near the entrance to the water that is where we parked. We were told that you could not double park in that lot, which is fine, but since when is a trailer considered a second car? Their rules say that you must have a buddy to enter the water, so a group of three entered the water, did our dive and one finished early and did not feel like having to carry her BCD back out and making the long surface swim so we took her BCD. Upon exiting the water never once were we asked what happened to our third diver whose equipment we had. But god help you if you try to enter the water by yourself they are all over you like flies asking a million questions as to where and when your buddy will be there. So that was the issue with the water.

Tanks
When it comes to filling tanks we all agree that they must be current vip and in hydro, and to have nitrox you must have a sticker. The staff gave us a hard time about not having the tanks O2 cleaned, which I can see their point if they were filling partial pressures, but they are not. They gave us a hard time about having nitrox stickers. What they did not give us a hard time with was the set of tanks that was two months out of VIP which we did not notice till we had returned to our shop. They had filled those tanks at least seven times that weekend and not a single one had picked up on the fact that they needed a vip. How about some due diligence? If you’re going to enforce the rules your staff should all be on the same page and rules are there to protect the divers, not just for show.

I found the diving to be nice and relaxing but the staff seemed rude and inconsiderate to the divers that support their quarry, almost as if they did not want us to be there. They have a rule where all divers must be out of the water by 6pm on Saturday, however when you exit the water at 5:45 and are getting consistently yelled at for not being off the property by 6pm it is a bit disheartening. If you wanted the divers to be off the property by 6pm why wouldn't you have them out of the water at 5pm? Nothing like paying for an amusement vacation where you can be treated like a piece of cattle. My local dive store pushed this trip all year long and they had gotten 40+ divers to go, well there are 40+ divers that will not go back to that place. The store bent over backwards to make things right and to make the divers enjoy their vacation, something that Dutch Springs failed to accomplish.

The subject line for your posting is misleading at best and simply not true.

I have been to Dutch Springs with our dive shop on several occasions on holiday weekends. We drive over 4.5 hours to get there (live in western Mass.).

I have never felt unsafe at any time while at Dutch Springs. Unfortunately I had witnessed emergency situations on at least two occasions. The staff at Dutch Springs was on top of the situation immediately. They reacted professionally and had the O2 and other necessary equipment there immediately.

In the two cases I remember one was a panicked diver that rocketed to the surface and the second one was a heavy diver in his 50's that was having trouble breathing when brought on to dry ground.

In both cases the response from the Dutch Springs staff was excellent.

As far as air fills go, my only complaint is that they are usually hot fills that result in less than a full fill by the time you get into the water.

We have also has occasions where a diver purchased tickets for three days of diving and got sick after the first day. Dutch Springs refunded the two unused days with no questions asked.

I have no relationship with Dutch Springs other than as a customer on holiday weekends.

[caseybird]

This past weekend my local dive store did a trip to Dutch Springs, and while the diving was good the service was horrible.

What they did not give us a hard time with was the set of tanks that was two months out of VIP which we did not notice till we had returned to our shop. They had filled those tanks at least seven times that weekend and not a single one had picked up on the fact that they needed a vip. How about some due diligence?
.
Grow up will ya? They were your tanks. Maintain them. Let's see, a double parked trailer takes up as much room as a double parked car. Don't double park. Case closed. Of course they favor the shops that bring in students 40 weekends a year. It's called business. If you want to be treated equally, dive Round Valley resevoir. No parking problems, no underwater attractions, no on-site medical, no hot water showers and when you've done your dive, you can drive 25 miles for an air fill. Have fun.

[piikki]

If you want to be treated equally, dive Round Valley resevoir. No parking problems, no underwater attractions, no on-site medical, no hot water showers and when you've done your dive, you can drive 25 miles for an air fill. Have fun.

Round Valley Reservoir? Never heard of it, thanks for bringing it up. Now that I checked, it's actually closer to me, and I much prefer the less crowded places. Gotta check it out :)

[lorien]

I have been to Dutch Springs many times and never, ever did I feel it was unsafe in any way. The dive staff have always been there if needed. No they are not running around shaking hands and greeting you but I have always found them to be friendly and helpful if approached (politely). Sounds like you had more of an attitude to start with which will, of course, tend to get the same in response.
The things you listed show nothing unsafe about the facility at all. You were trying to dive solo disregarding their rules and you're upset that they stopped you? Well, duh! I am sure they knew why you were bringing up the BC.
So that was your "issue with the water"???? Certainly no problems there.
They have a right to enforce whatever rules they want for filling nitrox tanks. You didn't like it, just use air, you will know next time. The problem I have with the tank fills is how long it can take but after my first visit I learned and we allow time to get them filled or leave them in the evening and know they will be ready in the AM when we return. Yes they are hot fills but with them having to fill SO many tanks all day long I understand and I make allowances. Yes, I would prefer a better fill but what the heck, I can live with it. Not "unsafe". So they missed the couple of month out of date viz's, I guess YOU did too huh? How safe are you? Did not see you damning yourself for trying to get out of viz tanks filled. It is OK for you all to miss it but not for them. They are dealing with a whole lot more thanks than you will ever be dealing with. I am sure an occasional one gets missed but I have seen them catch out of date thanks and refuse to fill them.
They do go around and remind you of when you need to be out and I have never, ever had anyone yell at me to get out. They have always been polite (sometimes under situations where I would not be as polite). I have never had a problem and no one I have been with has ever had a problem. Of course our attitude there was not that we deserved to do whatever we wanted and that everyone cater to us just for being there and giving them our business.
From the post I wonder if that may have contributed to some of your issues?
I will be going back to Dutch Springs as soon as I can!

[FastPirate]

ive been watching this thread for a while...and i just wanna say this...look...you cover your own ***, whether or not a diveboat, resort or anything else does not enforce things, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. i know im new to this whole scuba thing, but ive been racing motocross for a while, and i can tell you they dont check that your wearing the proper protection gear, because if u dont your an idiot... i strongly believe in covering your own ***

[caseybird]

Seriously,
I did a couple of dives at Round Valleys, it's about 30 miles east of Dutch off Rt 78.
One platform, very little infrastructure but it is only $10.00 a day. Poor vis on the day I was there, about 10 foot max. Gotta use a dive flag. Few divers.
Hey, you might find something neat there.

www.state.nj.us/dep/parksandforests/parks/round.html#scubaskin

link: