Dive Flag Law Again!!

[Dash_Riprock]

I was out at Lane's Cove Yesterday (Friday 8/24). I was diving alone and there were three others on the rocks. As we were sitting there chatting the Gloucester Harbor Master Showed up.

He said that he was going around the dive sites this weekend to inform divers about the "ordinance" requiring one dive flag per diver. He said that shortly, he will be posting signs to that effect at all the popular dive sites. He also told us that "at that point he will be enforcing the law and that any diver found to be diving with-out a flag would be fined $100.00".

I asked him how it would work with groups like O/W classes, boat charters and other large organized groups. He acknowledged the dangers of such. He told me that he would grant waivers on a case by case basis. He said the policy will be to call his office a day or two before a dive with the dive site, date, and names of the divers in the group, and he would waive the rule for that dive or set of dives.

I might add that he was not acting like a jerk or anything like that.

Again, this is not second hand information - It came strait from the Gloucester Harbor Master.

Al

[frogman_5]

One of my friends from the area told me the law was designed to make it a hassle for divers going after lobster, not for any good safety reason!

[ScubaSarus]

Just a note.

In Maine there are no dive fllag laws I believe (but correct me on this). But by the same token, you can not take lobsters by diving. Maybe they should make that law instead for the areas in question instead.

http://www.dive-flag.com/law.html

Im not big on lobster so its easy for me to propose this and its unfair on law abiding lobster divers.

[adshepard]

Just a note.

In Maine there are no dive fllag laws I believe (but correct me on this). But by the same token, you can not take lobsters by diving. Maybe they should make that law instead for the areas in question instead.

http://www.dive-flag.com/law.html

Im not big on lobster so its easy for me to propose this and its unfair on law abiding lobster divers.

Indeed there is no dive flag law in Maine and you can't take lobster while diving either. This (especially the no take law) may explain the rather good relationship divers in Maine have with the lobstermen. There are few if any hassles and in fact we tend to help each other out. Just last week as I prepared for a shore dive a lobstermen pulled close to shore and called out that he needed assistance with a tangled trap line and asked if I could help. The trap was close to shore so I told him if I could find the tangle I'd free it. Took me all of two minutes to free the line from timbers. I asked if he could point me in the direction of any good dive areas and he had a few suggestions where he knew of wrecks and such. One hand washes the other.

Alan

[ScubaSarus]

Wow. Nice story Alan. Its good to have an ally out their in the ocean. Oh beautiful pics by the way. off to Acadia today, ocean looks rough. Ive alway drempt of diving up in the Eastport Bay of Fundy area. Looking for that pefect rocky spot to dive in NovaScotia 50 miles from the nearest human.

[GrumpyOldGuy]

I wonder if it would be simple to just mount several flags on 1 pole. It might look silly, but it would be 1 flag per diver. My guess is the law is written to have 1 flag within x feet of the diver at least 3 feet above the water. Probably does not get into details on floats or flag poles. That would certainly reduce line tangles.

[Rick2]

Thanks for sharing this with us Al, may just save us a few hassles and dollars. Did you happen to get the phone # to call for the evaluation and hopefull waiver?
I can only guess these actions are a direct response from pressure applied on the Harbour Master from powers above not because he's bored or a jerk.
Aside from the pain in the posterior of all this ongoing hassle, the safety concerns particularly for new divers trying to stay in visual contact with thier buddies, (picture the bunch of balloons held by a vendor at the circus all tangled together) are very real. Stay Wet, Rick

[Rick2]

Hey Grumpy,
Good idea and very valid reasoning. I'm heading out to the garage directly where I know I have some fiberglass dowel, drill and key rings. Should be a pretty easy fabrication, hopefully it won't be too top heavy but we shall see!!!!!

[spectrum]

Correct on both counts. In Maine lobster is taken only by trap. There is no state flag requirement. Some local ponds and beaches do request them. In most of these cases there is enough boat activity to make it prudent anyway.

Sounds like I had better finish by web page about the 12+ nice dives between Kittery & Cape Elizabeth. They all include parking without peril as well.

While you do hear stories of lobster men being paranoid of divers I have never had an encounter.

That really stinks to have that sort restriction on your local diving. Little by little shore access is being restricted. A number of our sites have parking restricted to locals by permit in peak months. But when storms give the coastal hamlets a beating they have their hands out for the FEMA money that I put in the till. The amount of shore line that NH has managed to set aside as accessible is heartening, too bad the diving there wasn't notable.

Pete

[spectrum]

Hey Grumpy,
Good idea and very valid reasoning. I'm heading out to the garage directly where I know I have some fiberglass dowel, drill and key rings. Should be a pretty easy fabrication, hopefully it won't be too top heavy but we shall see!!!!!

Be careful about skirting the spirit of the law.

[Jim Lapenta]

I wonder if they make Teddy use a dive flag?

[SteveAD]

Be careful about skirting the spirit of the law.


The "spirit of the law" is to get around the free the beaches law and make it too much of a PITA to dive there. Having each diver tow an individual line would make for a bigger spaghetti fest than the night before the boston marathon. The law, as interpreted is patently discriminatory and unsafe.

[spectrum]

The "spirit of the law" is to get around the free the beaches law and make it too much of a PITA to dive there. Having each diver tow an individual line would make for a bigger spaghetti fest than the night before the boston marathon. The law, as interpreted is patently discriminatory and unsafe.

I fully appreciate the frustration and peril that following the law entails and how money talks and that our precious seaside is falling into the hands of far to few well heeled possessive owners.

My point is that if this is truly an enacted law and if enforcement finds any diver surfacing not personally towing a flag he or she will be diving without a flag. If taken to court a judge would consider the flag array "cute". I just looked back through some threads and did not see the actual statute in question cited verbatim. I can envision poorly written verbiage that would make the array somewhat defensible but it would still be a crap shoot in court. The again taking your chances on a $100 fine is about on par with a charter fee & tip.......

Pete

[diver 85]

I was out at Lane's Cove Yesterday (Friday 8/24). I was diving alone and there were three others on the rocks. As we were sitting there chatting the Gloucester Harbor Master Showed up.

He said that he was going around the dive sites this weekend to inform divers about the "ordinance" requiring one dive flag per diver. He said that shortly, he will be posting signs to that effect at all the popular dive sites. He also told us that "at that point he will be enforcing the law and that any diver found to be diving with-out a flag would be fined $100.00".

I asked him how it would work with groups like O/W classes, boat charters and other large organized groups. He acknowledged the dangers of such. He told me that he would grant waivers on a case by case basis. He said the policy will be to call his office a day or two before a dive with the dive site, date, and names of the divers in the group, and he would waive the rule for that dive or set of dives.

I might add that he was not acting like a jerk or anything like that.

Again, this is not second hand information - It came strait from the Gloucester Harbor Master.

Al

how will he know which 'owns' the flag....guess they can split the ticket(bill)......$50 each???.........

[SteveAD]

I fully appreciate the frustration and peril that following the law entails and how money talks and that our precious seaside is falling into the hands of far to few well heeled possessive owners.

My point is that if this is truly an enacted law and if enforcement finds any diver surfacing not personally towing a flag he or she will be diving without a flag. If taken to court a judge would consider the flag array "cute". I just looked back through some threads and did not see the actual statute in question cited verbatim. I can envision poorly written verbiage that would make the array somewhat defensible but it would still be a crap shoot in court. The again taking your chances on a $100 fine is about on par with a charter fee & tip.......

Pete

The below is copied directly from the city of gloucester website:

http://www.ci.gloucester.ma.us/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=17&MMN_position=37:37


Sec. 10-81. Scuba and skin diving.
(a) Driver's flag. Scuba or skin divers within the Gloucester waterways shall display a diver's flag consisting of a white diagonal stripe on a red field not less than twelve by fifteen inches (12 X 15) in size. The flag shall be displayed upright on a float or similar device at a height sufficient to be seen by passing vessels. The diver shall trail this flag while submerged, unless the harbormaster grants permission to do otherwise, and shall surface within twenty-five (25) feet of the flag.

(b) Distance from buoys. The diver shall maintain a distance of at least twenty-five (25) feet and stay clear when vessels are hauling traps in the immediate area.

(c) Prohibition. The harbormaster may prohibit scuba or skin diving in areas within Gloucester waterways where such diving cannot, in the harbormaster's opinion, be carried out safely without undue inconvenience to vessel operations.

(d) Beach regulations. Scuba or skin divers must comply with beach regulations promulgated by the director of public works.

Section (a) clearly reads "Scuba or skin divers within the Gloucester waterways shall display a diver's flag" that's divers plural and flag singular.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the law as currently INTERPRETED (I didn't say written) is discriminatory and unsafe. The people responsible for the current interpretation are the lobstermen and the city council. While the City council is responsible for enacting laws, constitutionally, the courts are responsible for interpreting them, and I'm pretty sure that lobstermen are not mentioned anywhere in the constitution. The only way to truly put this issue to bed will be for someone to get cited for a violation, fight it in court, and let a judge interpret the law for what it actually says.

[Medic0506]

I was planning on diving there soon too. Is anyone aware of any other states / places which require each diver to have a flag?

[lcl]

This is slightly off-topic, but it seems it might be good to cultivate warm relations with the lobstermen. We could suggest that they tag their traps with identification, and then we can return bouy-less traps to them. There might be other ways as well in which we could be helpful to the lobstering community.

[adshepard]

This is slightly off-topic, but it seems it might be good to cultivate warm relations with the lobstermen. We could suggest that they tag their traps with identification, and then we can return bouy-less traps to them. There might be other ways as well in which we could be helpful to the lobstering community.


In Maine the traps do have ID tags on them. When I find a washed up trap that is in good shape on the beaches near our summer home I just haul them down to the town pier and let the lobstermen claim their own traps. It's the neighbourly thing to do.

I'm not sure that you'd want to try and haul ghost traps from the deep out of the water. Those things are damn heavy.

Alan

[Satori]

I have one question": Is it free to apply/obtain a waiver? On what criteria are waivers given?

[DivingsInMyBlood]

isnt it usally 1 flag for every 4 divers in a group or something like that?

[bobby-in-mass]

o.k. here we go again....
has anyone done a check on the number of lobstor pots up there?
how about how many lobsters the commerical lobstermen catch each year?
and the number of lobsters divers catch?
so the numbers speak for themself...the lobstermen have nothing better to do then blame the divers for THE OVER FISHED WATERS BY THE LOBSTERMEN THEMSELFS!!!
THEY CREATED THERE OWN PROBLEMS AND ARE LOOKING FOR ANY WAY OUT BUT THE TRUTH...
we as divers and anyone with any brain can see if every diver must carry a flag DIVERS WILL GET HURT IF NOT KILLED.
so when the first of many divers are found dead with line around there necks......then what???
maybe the lobstermen need to admit they are there own problem...
so I ask you this:
If I ever drown from the billions of lines strewn about...
please clean out every trap up there out and sell the lobsters.. give the money to my little girl....

[LobstaMan]

As I mentioned in my previous post, the law as currently INTERPRETED (I didn't say written) is discriminatory and unsafe. The people responsible for the current interpretation are the lobstermen and the city council. While the City council is responsible for enacting laws, constitutionally, the courts are responsible for interpreting them, and I'm pretty sure that lobstermen are not mentioned anywhere in the constitution. The only way to truly put this issue to bed will be for someone to get cited for a violation, fight it in court, and let a judge interpret the law for what it actually says.

Exactly, I couldn't agree more. The only interpretation that matters is a judge's, expecially an appeals court judge's opinion. However, you'd probably start out at the district court level w/ a magistrate's hearing, followed by an appeal in front of a judge then the appeals level.

It is my understanding that this would be a civil fine, not a criminal violation...can anyone confirm that? Some towns have a by law written in that any violation of an ordinance is also an arrestable offense--like the open container ordinances all towns have.

If someone does get a ticket/fine for this Gloucester ordinance violation, please post the info here. I'm sure we might have some scuba diving attorney/s who would take the case pro bono or at least offer some good advise on how to proceed pro se. Hopefully, it won't come to that, but it now does seem inevitable.

LobstaMan

[Lursxt]

I was out at folly today and did not see any law enforcement personnel. I parked at folly with no issues. I did not see any warning signs on posted notices. I know folly borders Gloucester, so I'm not sure if its applicable.

[eab]

I was out at Niles last weekend, and the Environmental Police were standing on the shore, hurrying us to come in. There were two; one spoke, the other not a word. They were mainly interested in whether we were lobstering and checking our coolers. We were not, and allowed it. The talking one advised us of the law, but said he wasn't enforcing it. I assumed he meant ever, but perhaps he meant that particular day.

There was no mention of a fine or the exception for O/W classes someone else mentioned.

Yesterday we were at Old Garden, and while we saw Environmental Police, not one came near us to check for lobsters or flags. We had a group of 4 with 2 flags. Maybe two flags clustered together was enough to make them think each of us had one?

I've checked the law, and it states "unless the harbormaster grants permission to do otherwise" in the Diver's flag section. Looks like that's the place to start.

Eileen

[a1a9]

The "revised" flag law only applies to Gloucester, Old Garden is in Rockport. It will be interesting to see if Rockport also adopts this "Law".

[oceancurrent]

Ahh. These Gloucester "laws" scream out "we love divers".

Personally, I am not going to risk getting entangled in a soup of dive flags and drown, so I have no intention to abide by their friendly "law". I am not going to stay 25' away from traps/lobstermen either because this is impossible. I don't have time to jump hoops with the harbor master either, so I am simply not going to abide to this "law" - take that lobstersmellingchickenbrains. So far, I haven't been catching lobsters or touching anyone's traps (I don't care about lobsters; I am a peaceful diver), but if they insist on harassing me or my fellow divers, I may as well change my position on this. It's never late to buy a "101 Ways to Have Fun with Lobster Traps" booklet and go for a fun dive in Lanes Cove :eyebrow:

I am very curious as to which professional diver will the Gloucester buoys bring to court as an expert witness to say that howling multiple flags in a group enhances diver safety. :rofl3:

[ClamBake]

Call me at (617)542-4884. I'd be happy to take this case on . . . pro bono!!

Law School Tuition - $$$$$$$$$
Decade+ working for "the man" - !#*@&!
Starting your own firm with friends - :)
Opportunity to stick it to Gloucester :rtfm: . . . and stick up for divers :luxhello: - PRICELESS!!

- Rob Brennan

www.bdlw-law.com (http://www.bdlw-law.com)

[SteveAD]

Call me at (617)542-4884. I'd be happy to take this case on . . . pro bono!!

Law School Tuition - $$$$$$$$$
Decade+ working for "the man" - !#*@&!
Starting your own firm with friends - :)
Opportunity to stick it to Gloucester :rtfm: . . . and stick up for divers :luxhello: - PRICELESS!!

- Rob Brennan

www.bdlw-law.com (http://www.bdlw-law.com)


Glad to see you step up Rob. I will continue to dive one flag per group, and I will now hope to get cited for my violation so the ball to overturn this BS interpretation can be got rollin'.

[STOGEY]

Correct on both counts. In Maine lobster is taken only by trap. There is no state flag requirement. Some local ponds and beaches do request them. In most of these cases there is enough boat activity to make it prudent anyway.

Sounds like I had better finish by web page about the 12+ nice dives between Kittery & Cape Elizabeth. They all include parking without peril as well.

While you do hear stories of lobster men being paranoid of divers I have never had an encounter.

That really stinks to have that sort restriction on your local diving. Little by little shore access is being restricted. A number of our sites have parking restricted to locals by permit in peak months. But when storms give the coastal hamlets a beating they have their hands out for the FEMA money that I put in the till. The amount of shore line that NH has managed to set aside as accessible is heartening, too bad the diving there wasn't notable.

Pete

That's why I hate liberals. They are all jerks. They want to make laws for everyone but themselves. I'm so tempted to bring a little fake rubber lobster with me the next time I dive and put it in a trap, with a note with love from one lobsterman to another.

[Dash_Riprock]

That's why I hate liberals. They are all jerks.

Yikes!!:11:

[STOGEY]

That's why I hate liberals. They are all jerks. They want to make laws for everyone but themselves. I'm so tempted to bring a little fake rubber lobster with me the next time I dive and put it in a trap, with a note with love from one lobsterman to another.

It's time for a little ucwf.

[mello-yellow]

Call me at (617)542-4884. I'd be happy to take this case on . . . pro bono!!

Law School Tuition - $$$$$$$$$
Decade+ working for "the man" - !#*@&!
Starting your own firm with friends - :)
Opportunity to stick it to Gloucester :rtfm: . . . and stick up for divers :luxhello: - PRICELESS!!

- Rob Brennan

I just put you into my cell phone!

[ClamBake]

I just put you into my cell phone!
I'll be heading up to Cape Ann myself Saturday AM (was planning for Loblolly Cove but something in Gloucester is tempting). . . and will have my cell phone and bail bonds just in case!!:crafty:

For what it's worth, I just read a recent letter sent out to LDS operators and others from a well known Gloucester instructor/charter capt who suggests that as of December 2006 "knowing that all their consultants ended up on our side" Gloucester conceded that the plain langauge of the bylaw " . . .divers [plural] will display a flag [singular] . . ." did not lend itself to the interpretation now being suggested.

Please let me know if anyone receives any "friendly advice" this weekend from the harbormaster or environmental police.

- Rob

[Dash_Riprock]

I just want to mention one more time that - the Harbormaster - said he will be posting signs at the local dive sites and won't be fining divers until those signs have been posted. He did not suggest any time frame.

Al

[LobstaMan]

I just want to mention one more time that - the Harbormaster - said he will be posting signs at the local dive sites and won't be fining divers until those signs have been posted. He did not suggest any time frame.

Al

Why waste the town's money by posting those signs? He must be under some political pressure to enforce the ordinance as the town counsel interpretes it. We will see what happens.

LobstaMan

[Dash_Riprock]

When I spoke with the Harbormaster that day, he almost seemed sympathetic to our situation. I believe he meant what he was saying to be true. Who knows? It may just be another flash in the pan threat.

Al

[kirwoodd]

This is slightly off-topic, but it seems it might be good to cultivate warm relations with the lobstermen. We could suggest that they tag their traps with identification, and then we can return bouy-less traps to them. There might be other ways as well in which we could be helpful to the lobstering community.

Most lobster pots are id'd.
Look at the plastic insert that fits the escape hatch.

[kirwoodd]

Why would you dive in a such a diver unfriendly town? They don't want divers. Fine, don't dive there. Don't buy lunch there, don't get gas, don't get your kids a little knick knack in their stores, when your parents come to town to visit, take them to Charlestown and skip Cape Ann entirely (isn't Rockport doing this too?) Don't help the lobster boats with their lines wrapped around their shafts, etc.

To the poster that helps the lobster boats, I do that as well, I am just saying that if you aren't diving in Gloucester, you aren't there to help. If you are there, you really should help, its good karma.

[Dash_Riprock]

Why would you dive in a such a diver unfriendly town? They don't want divers. Fine, don't dive there.

Some of those Cape Anne-rs may not want us, but Cape Anne certainly has some of the best diving in the Northeast, and within easy driving distance too. I am not willing to let the ridicules antics of a few residents keep me from diving those sites. Those great dive sites belong to us as well as everyone else.

Al

[kirwoodd]

I guess.
When I drop into the water from Boston to north side of Cape Ann, I cant tell where I am. I don't look around underwater and say "this feels like Cape Ann".

But if you can tell the differance, then I see your point.

[STOGEY]

I guess.
When I drop into the water from Boston to north side of Cape Ann, I cant tell where I am. I don't look around underwater and say "this feels like Cape Ann".

But if you can tell the differance, then I see your point.

Since yo probably live in or near Boston tht's an easy drive for you. I happen to enjoy diving OGB quite a bit. I plan to keep diving there. I drive into Boston for business on a daily basis for work. I'm certainly not going to go through the Boston traffic to go diving, nfw.

[Medic0506]

I see you pull an underwater protest to the new law. Where ever the lobsterman put their traps you go dive with a hundred people and surround the area with flags, not allowing them to legally get to their traps. Maybe that's me just being spiteful.

[lcl]

I see you pull an underwater protest to the new law. Where ever the lobsterman put their traps you go dive with a hundred people and surround the area with flags, not allowing them to legally get to their traps. Maybe that's me just being spiteful.
Let's assume that the harbormaster actually allowed your protest to go ahead, not arrest you for interfering with commerce or whatever the infractions are (IANAL), and allowed constant re-supply of air and/or divers for weeks or months on end. We'll ignore the amusing logistics for the sake of argument.

The problem with taking revenge* is that by targeting random members of a group of which only a portion - likely a small portion - have actually done you harm, you will very likely cause difficulty for a person innocent of wronging you. The probable result is you make a foe of someone who previously was not against you (and who might even have been sympathetic to you), and of that person's friends and allies too. If you ever want to hurt your cause, that's an effective way to do so. On the other hand, it's certainly worked well for Shiite vs. Sunni and in places ranging from Sri Lanka to the Gaza Strip to the gangs of Boston, so why not try it? But seriously, though taking the high road requires more patience and self-control, it usually reaps far better rewards in the end. Gandhi did not win by force.


*Actually, there are many problems with revenge, but given that this forum is dedicated to scuba, not confict and its resolution, I am limiting my off-topic comments.

[Mitchell]

I dove Folly and Niles on Sat. I also called the harbormaster and left a message. To my surprise he called me back and was very nice and explained that he can grant a waiver for a large group. Very nice on the phone and it appears that he realizes that this is a potentially dangerous situation. I didn't see anyone checking flags this weekend. Just call ahead.

[MSilvia]

I happen to enjoy diving OGB quite a bit. I plan to keep diving there.
Me too, but OGB isn't in Gloucester, it's in Rockport. So are Pebble, Folly, Cat, Back/Front, and most of the other Cape Ann sites I like.

[oceancurrent]

Just call ahead.

Pshaw! I wouldn't go out of my way to obey a totally unreasonable law. You know, if you give them your finger, you will get your hand bitten off. Next thing, they will make a law where you will need to ask the lobstermen for permission to dive and do so where there are no lobster traps (where would that be?).

[Skeeter1097]

in Florida, Come on down.

[dave4868]

Me too, but OGB isn't in Gloucester, it's in Rockport. So are Pebble, Folly, Cat, Back/Front, and most of the other Cape Ann sites I like.

Matt, just for clarification, Folly Coves's mostly in Gloucester. :)

Dave C

[STOGEY]

Me too, but OGB isn't in Gloucester, it's in Rockport. So are Pebble, Folly, Cat, Back/Front, and most of the other Cape Ann sites I like.

True but I bet the dive flag laws in Gloucester aren't that far away from being implemented in Rockport.

[STOGEY]

Matt, just for clarification, Folly Coves's mostly in Gloucester. :)

Dave C

Some people always have to have the last word don't they.:D

[MSilvia]

Matt, just for clarification, Folly Coves's mostly in Gloucester. :)

I'm a bit suprised to see you're right about that. The town line isn't where I thought. Fortunately for me, I've always felt that site was overrated. :)

I haven't heard any buzz about Rockport considering the same stupid regulations.

[crlavoie]

I'm a bit suprised to see you're right about that. The town line isn't where I thought. Fortunately for me, I've always felt that site was overrated. :)

I haven't heard any buzz about Rockport considering the same stupid regulations.

Around this time last year, I had a lengthy discussion with the Rockport Harbor Master on this topic and he was quite clear that Rockport had no intention of proposing or enforcing any such law. He was really a very friendly guy and seemed genuinely sympathetic toward divers. He left us his card and said to call if we ever arrived at a site and were in need of miscellaneous gear like a flag, fins, catch bags etc. He has a sizeable collection of stuff left behind on the beaches and would be happy to loan it out.

[Medic0506]

I'm well aware that an underwater protest would not work lcl, however, I thought the idea was funny and maybe it would make somebody laugh. I appologize for bringing my ridiculous concept to the table.

[Richesb]

Folks,
Just so you ALL are a little smarter.
There are Federal laws governing dive flags also. They apply in ALL state waters.

[dave4868]

Around this time last year, I had a lengthy discussion with the Rockport Harbor Master on this topic and he was quite clear that Rockport had no intention of proposing or enforcing any such law. He was really a very friendly guy and seemed genuinely sympathetic toward divers. He left us his card and said to call if we ever arrived at a site and were in need of miscellaneous gear like a flag, fins, catch bags etc. He has a sizeable collection of stuff left behind on the beaches and would be happy to loan it out.

Scott Story and Rosemary Lesch are the Harbormasters for Rockport and they're absolutely super in the way they deal with the public. Always friendly, polite, respectful and reasonable.

They're the most professional pair of government agents I've ever met. I welcome them anytime they want to see my catch.

Dave C

[rockjock3]

I just want to mention one more time that - the Harbormaster - said he will be posting signs at the local dive sites and won't be fining divers until those signs have been posted. He did not suggest any time frame.

Al

Yea, but it doesn't matter if he posts signs or not. If his signs are not supported by some law/ordinance then they are simply a waste of county money.

I mean, if there is a 20MPH speed limit on a road and public works decides to put up 15MPH signs because they want to the cops can't write tickets for people going 20mph. Unless it is supported by law or ordinance.

Please advise me if this is different up there.

[Gilldiver]

If it hasn't been suggested yet, use the passive protest method. Get 50 divers to go out with one flag per pair. Let them get cited and everyone of them demand a trial. At the trials get pro SCUBA safety witnesses to testify about the safety aspects and make sure that the city lawers know it, and the city insurance companies.

Clog up the city courts and let them know it will occure every so often and in full view of the papers and TV.

Try to make them look foolish and cost the city money and then you get the tax payers on your side.

[Dash_Riprock]

Yea, but it doesn't matter if he posts signs or not. If his signs are not supported by some law/ordinance then they are simply a waste of county money.

I mean, if there is a 20MPH speed limit on a road and public works decides to put up 15MPH signs because they want to the cops can't write tickets for people going 20mph. Unless it is supported by law or ordinance.

Please advise me if this is different up there.

rockjock3

That is exactly the point of contention. The Town of Gloucester does have on the books a poorly written ordinance regarding this law. It's has been on their books for quite some time. They are just recently threatening to enforce it.

Al

[Dash_Riprock]

Folks,
Just so you ALL are a little smarter.
There are Federal laws governing dive flags also. They apply in ALL state waters.

Richesb

The federal law deals only with boats. This area is known for it's shore diving and that is were the problem exists.

Here is a quote

Dive Flag Law
Rules for U.S. divers and boaters
The U.S. Coast Guard spells out the federal regulation for dive flag use in Rule 27e - Vessel Engaged in Diving Operations:


Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all lights and shapes prescribed in paragraph (d) of this Rule [most civilian vessels], the following shall be exhibited:

Three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white; a rigid replica of the International Code flag "A" not less than 1 meter in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.

Al

[rockjock3]

rockjock3

That is exactly the point of contention. The Town of Gloucester does have on the books a poorly written ordinance regarding this law. It's has been on their books for quite some time. They are just recently threatening to enforce it.

Al


But the quoted ordinance states divers must display a flag. Not divers must display flags. I thought Rob (lawyer) clarified that. That would tell me that divers must carry a flag not interpreted as each diver must display a flag. I don't live in that area though so I don't know if the that is they way divers read it up there.

So, based on that, if the harbormaster puts up signs that each diver must carry a flag and then issues citations for those violating that then he would be wrong because the ordinance reads that divers (more than one so could include a group) must display a dive flag (singular). His citations would not be valid because he can't make up his own laws and ordinances as he sees fit.

[LobstaMan]

But the quoted ordinance states divers must display a flag. Not divers must display flags. I thought Rob (lawyer) clarified that. That would tell me that divers must carry a flag not interpreted as each diver must display a flag. I don't live in that area though so I don't know if the that is they way divers read it up there.

So, based on that, if the harbormaster puts up signs that each diver must carry a flag and then issues citations for those violating that then he would be wrong because the ordinance reads that divers (more than one so could include a group) must display a dive flag (singular). His citations would not be valid because he can't make up his own laws and ordinances as he sees fit.

You have just stated the exact reason why this ordinance is a problem in Gloucester...the divers' interpretation of the wording of the ordinance vs. the opinion of the town council and the harbormaster's of the same wording. At this point, it appears that someone will have to be cited then fight it in the state court system so we can get a definitive legal opinion on the subject. Hopefully, it won't come to that.

LobstaMan, Esquire

[lobsta_diver]

I went to Lanes Cove today and a new sign has been posted. It says that each diver must display a flag.

[rockjock3]

You have just stated the exact reason why this ordinance is a problem in Gloucester...the divers' interpretation of the wording of the ordinance vs. the opinion of the town council and the harbormaster's of the same wording. At this point, it appears that someone will have to be cited then fight it in the state court system so we can get a definitive legal opinion on the subject. Hopefully, it won't come to that.

LobstaMan, Esquire

Ahhh. Now I see. Yes, I can see that is what needs to happen. I would hope that if it goes to court with a few people the judge will let the harbormaster and city council know they can't just twist their own interpretation out of the law. It looks like it states it in black-and-white with no possible way to be missinterpreted, but they are just playing dumb because of possible pressure from other sources.