Purchasing an Oxygen kit and where to get O2

[Glock Diver]

I'm interested in purchasing an O2 kit to have on-hand when doing local dives with just a buddy, and not on a charter. Since the majority of dive injuries call for the administering of O2 right away, it seems like the responsible thing to have. I've found some personal sized kits that include masks, reg, tank, etc for about $250-$300, but I'm curious to know where I would get the O2 tank filled. I live in Northern VA, if anyone in this area is aware of a place.

Thanks!

PS- I found these kits on galls.com (a good police/EMS supplier), but are there cheaper places to get an O2 kit?

[almitywife]

we bought our O2 kit thru DAN

cheers

[Thalassamania]

The DAN kits are well designed and put together, I don't like the fact that they can not be used as a positive pressure resuscitator, but that's a policy/liability question. You do a little better cost wise doing it yourself, but not really by enough to be worth the hassle.

[Knavey]

I purchased a DAN kit and am not disappointed. I also took the O2 provider course through my LDS and it was worth the time.

[CAPT HOOK]

Don't know about Va. but when we lived in Mi. you needed a prescription to get oxygen.

[AzAtty]

The DAN kits are well designed and put together, I don't like the fact that they can not be used as a positive pressure resuscitator, but that's a policy/liability question. You do a little better cost wise doing it yourself, but not really by enough to be worth the hassle.

The higher priced DAN kits are shipping with a manually triggered ventilator (MTV100) on them, and DAN seems to be pushing those more nowadays--at least when I bought my kit a month ago, the instructors and sales reps were both recommending the MTV100 units as the direction DAN is moving.

For the OP, I shopped the kits pretty well and considered building my own. The DAN kits are VERY nice. After taking into account the items included in the DAN kit and the packaging (that Pelican case is bombproof), I determined the DAN kit was a better value for me. But I was looking for more than a standard O2 kit, so it made sense to me. At $250 to $300, you're in the ballpark for a good O2 kit with a D-cylinder; maybe even a Jumbo D if you're lucky. The least expensive D-cylinder kit I found was $221.50 at Fieldtex (http://www.e-firstaidsupplies.com/ems14.html), but that's a real basic kit. Fieldtex has good customer service.

Most medical supply houses will fill O2 cylinders, but you often need a prescription for it. I asked my LDS if they could fill my O2 cylinder, and they told me it would be prohibitively expensive for them to do it. Instead, they referred me to the vender where they fill their O2 cylinders. I went to that vendor and paid $14 to fill each Jumbo-D with 100% O2. The vendor has its own fill station (most don't--they outsource fills, which can cause delays), and will fill cylinders for certified Rescue Divers without a prescription (present your C-card, and you're done). The vendor who has a relationship with your LDS will likely give you the least hassle, since they're used to dealing with a dive shop, if not divers themselves.

[rakkis]

Another alternative would be to get trained for DAN O2. PraxAir (national gas distributor) has an agreement with DAN to allow the sale of medical grade O2 to DAN O2 administrators.

[somewhereinla]

You will need to take the DAN oxygen first aid class first, you will get a card good for 2 years that will allow you to get 100% 02 without a prescription. Any dive shop that mixed Nitrox, tri-mix etc... will be able to supply you with 100% 02.

[nereas]

I'm interested in purchasing an O2 kit to have on-hand when doing local dives with just a buddy, and not on a charter. Since the majority of dive injuries call for the administering of O2 right away, it seems like the responsible thing to have. I've found some personal sized kits that include masks, reg, tank, etc for about $250-$300, but I'm curious to know where I would get the O2 tank filled.

Thanks!

PS- I found these kits on galls.com (a good police/EMS supplier), but are there cheaper places to get an O2 kit?

Youre going to need a DAN O2 Oxygen Provider C-card before a scuba store will fill your DAN O2 kit with oxygen. That is the answer to all 3 of your questions.

Don't waste your money on the "demand valve" because these by and large do not work, and cannot be fixed.

[Thalassamania]

The higher priced DAN kits are shipping with a manually triggered ventilator (MTV100) on them, and DAN seems to be pushing those more nowadays--at least when I bought my kit a month ago, the instructors and sales reps were both recommending the MTV100 units as the direction DAN is moving.That's good to hear.

[in_cavediver]

Well, I put together my own O2 kit for a heck of lot less than $300

I got the Med-E bottle used with new reg for around $25-$30. I coupled a constant flow mask (have o2 deco bottles for demand masks) with long hose for an additional $12. Adding a hydro ($11) and fill from my local gas supplier (no questions asked I might add) for $8. This was in Indiana.

Now, if I didn't have a pair of 45's with O2, I'd have gotten a demand mask as well as constant flow which would have added a bit to the cost. I went constant flow understanding the reduced efficiency as a tradeoff to the possible lack to 'complete' patient care. (somebody has to drive etc).

Remember, the point of personal O2 is to get the diver on hyperoxic gas as soon as possible and realize EMS will take over. Its better to have ANY O2 kit rather than wait for the best. A basic kit can be had for $50-$75.

[Thalassamania]

Well, I put together my own O2 kit for a heck of lot less than $300

I got the Med-E bottle used with new reg for around $25-$30. I coupled a constant flow mask (have o2 deco bottles for demand masks) with long hose for an additional $12. Adding a hydro ($11) and fill from my local gas supplier (no questions asked I might add) for $8. This was in Indiana.

Now, if I didn't have a pair of 45's with O2, I'd have gotten a demand mask as well as constant flow which would have added a bit to the cost. I went constant flow understanding the reduced efficiency as a tradeoff to the possible lack to 'complete' patient care. (somebody has to drive etc).

Remember, the point of personal O2 is to get the diver on hyperoxic gas as soon as possible and realize EMS will take over. Its better to have ANY O2 kit rather than wait for the best. A basic kit can be had for $50-$75.Agreed, but if I were putting a kit together an essential feature would be a DEMAND regulator, constant flow doesn't cut it, my spinal cord is too important to me for that.

[DeepB]

but in fact, what makes the big difference between an on demand mask and an oxygen mask with reservoir bag? If used right in both cases it is near by 100% O2. And if right used the difference in consumption is also not THAT big.

Daniel

[Hoyden]

I'm interested in purchasing an O2 kit to have on-hand when doing local dives with just a buddy, and not on a charter. Since the majority of dive injuries call for the administering of O2 right away, it seems like the responsible thing to have. I've found some personal sized kits that include masks, reg, tank, etc for about $250-$300, but I'm curious to know where I would get the O2 tank filled. I live in Northern VA, if anyone in this area is aware of a place.

Thanks!

PS- I found these kits on galls.com (a good police/EMS supplier), but are there cheaper places to get an O2 kit?

If you have an O2 administration certification (like DAN) or an appropriate diving certification, VA Scuba in Manassas will fill your O2 cylinder. If you don't have the appropriate certification, we offer DAN classes:) every month.

Jackie

[Thalassamania]

My understanding (and that's way open to change if you got new information) is that nothing except a demand regulator even approaches 100%.

[DeepB]

you can also get up to nearby 100% with constant flow. I am a voluntary paramedic and we only have constant flow. but there are those oxygen masks with reervoir bag.
http://www.kyoling.com/picture/reservoir.jpg

the constantly flowing O2 fills the reservoir bag. when the patient takes a breath he takes it out of the reservoir bag. the constantly flowing O2 refills the reservoir bag. So more or less none of the O2 is lost, and the patient got nearby 100% O2.

It is not as good as the on-demand system, because a little bit O2 is lost, but it is much cheaper.

best regards
Daniel

[Thalassamania]

My understanding is that those masks are lucky to break 70%. Anyone with hard data out there?

[DeepB]

ok, if that is the case i would like to have those facts. (i am also open to change my mind;))
i can just tell what we learned in our paramedic course.

Daniel

[Thalassamania]

We wait for someone who knows more than we do.

[jscott099]

I got mine through DAN also. I am a DAN instructor and I have a kit just for that as well. You'll need a prescription or usually the DAN O2 provider card will work.

If you call DAN, they will tell you who the O2 fillers are in your area.

For my D cylinder it costs $20.

[divingmedic]

How can go about circumventing the laws on O2 with a rx? A far as demand valves we quit using those in EMS about 15 years ago, they over inflate the lungs and cause a pneumothorax. There are two types of non-rebreather face masks. One is a partial non-rebreather which lets some room air in and gives you about 85-95 percent end tidal O2 concentration. The other is a total non-rebreather which gives you 100 percent oxygen. The only true way to deliver 100 pecent oxygen is through a endotracheal tube via intubation, which requires expensive equipement, training and the direction of a MD.

[Thalassamania]

How can go about circumventing the laws on O2 with a rx? A far as demand valves we quit using those in EMS about 15 years ago, they over inflate the lungs and cause a pneumothorax. There are two types of non-rebreather face masks. One is a partial non-rebreather which lets some room air in and gives you about 85-95 percent end tidal O2 concentration. The other is a total non-rebreather which gives you 100 percent oxygen. The only true way to deliver 100 pecent oxygen is through a endotracheal tube via intubation, which requires expensive equipement, training and the direction of a MD.With all due respect both your statement concerning pneumothorax (may well be true for some class of patients other than divers) and partial non-rebreather masks (about 70%) flies in the face of what I was taught, I do find staments on the that non-rebreathers CAN deliver up to 90%, we need some referenced data here.

[knotical]

As far as demand valves we quit using those in EMS about 15 years ago, they over inflate the lungs and cause a pneumothorax.
Terminology often bites us when this discussion comes up.

Some of us use the term “demand” when referring to regulators that react to the demand of a breathing patient, much as a scuba regulator, which is a demand-activated regulator. Some, especially emergency medical personnel, use the term “demand” when referring to positive-pressure regulators that are used to inflate a non-breathing patient’s lungs. The concern divingmedic raises relates to the latter.

Fortunately, there are now positive-pressure ventilators that reduce this concern by limiting the pressure delivered.

See also this thread: http://scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=146108
and/or this article: http://www.otwo.com/article_2.htm

Anyone using a positive-pressure regulator to administer oxygen should be trained in its use.
DAN provides such training in its Advanced Oxygen First Aid course.

[Thalassamania]

Terminology often bites us when this discussion comes up.

Some of us use the term “demand” when referring to regulators that react to the demand of a breathing patient, much as a scuba regulator, which is a demand-activated regulator. Some, especially emergency medical personnel, use the term “demand” when referring to positive-pressure regulators that are used to inflate a non-breathing patient’s lungs. The concern divingmedic raises relates to the latter.

Fortunately, there are now positive-pressure ventilators that reduce this concern by limiting the pressure delivered.

See also this thread: http://scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=146108
and/or this article: http://www.otwo.com/article_2.htm

Anyone using a positive-pressure regulator to administer oxygen should be trained in its use.
DAN provides such training in its Advanced Oxygen First Aid course.That's what I thought. Now can we resolve the oxygen percentage question?

[Trever]

I purchased a bottle, reg and mask on e-bay for under $100 bucks, as for fills my local gas distributor will fill it for $18. If I want to get it filled for free my EMT buddy will get it filled for free, but I have to wait several days on it. 12-15 liters per minute with a nonrebreather mask will deliver 80-100% O2 depending on fit of the mask. This is according to Brady Emergency Care 8th edition page 128 table 6-3.

[Trever]

That's what I thought. Now can we resolve the oxygen percentage question?

Thalassamania,

According to Brady Emergency Care 8th edition page 128 table 6-3, With a flow rate of 12-15 liters per minute a nonrebreather mask will deliver 80-100% O2 depending on the fit of the mask.

[knotical]

can we resolve the oxygen percentage question?
Here’s my attempt.

Mostly extracted from:
http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/articles/download/The4Rs.pdf

Resuscitating without supplemental oxygen 16%.
Bag valve mask without supplemental oxygen 21%.
Normal breathing 21%.
Resuscitating with supplemental oxygen can exceed 50%.
Non-rebreather mask varies, but can exceed 90%. <Trever’s answer of 80-100% seems better here.>
Demand valve with tight fitting mask approaches 100%.

I did not find anything on the bag valve mask with supplemental oxygen, or the manually triggered ventilator, but logic tells me they also approach 100%.

[Thalassamania]

My spinal column has been very, very good to me ... I'll stick with a demand regulator and get a guaranteed 100%, 80% to 100% can mean the difference between bladder, bowel and sexual function and NOT.

[Betail]

My spinal column has been very, very good to me ... I'll stick with a demand regulator and get a guaranteed 100%, 80% to 100% can mean the difference between bladder, bowel and sexual function and NOT.

The assumption here is that with the demand (negative pressure induced flow) regulator, you have a perfect seal on the mask so that there is no air leakage when you inhale. Otherwise, you will not receive 100% on inhalation.

[DaFireMedic]

My spinal column has been very, very good to me ... I'll stick with a demand regulator and get a guaranteed 100%, 80% to 100% can mean the difference between bladder, bowel and sexual function and NOT.

Nothing is guaranteed 100% O2, only rated at 100% 02. Your seal has a lot to do with it, especially if trying to administer oxygen to an unconscious person. I've been administering O2 on a daily basis for 16 years, and some faces are just difficult to get a good seal on.

I have a demand valve on my O2 kit, and I also carry a bag valve mask. BVM is much safer for resuscitation, for reasons mentioned earlier regarding lung overpressurization. The demand valve was been removed as a resuscitation device in California years ago for this reason. It is still good for delivering O2 to a conscious person capable of maintaining their airway and holding the mask themselves. The BVM will provide 100% oxygen with a good seal and the reservoir bag filled and as I said, is far better for resuscitation. But they also require practice to use correctly, especially as a 1 person skill.

The non-rebreather mask is the best constant flow delivery device commonly available, but as mentioned before, uses O2 faster than a demand valve. The positive side to them is that it does not require someone to hold it to their face, which in the case of a person with decreased mental status may make it the device of choice if an adequate O2 supply is at hand.

Oh, also I put my kit together myself. I bought a regulator and demand valve used, and bought the cylinder and adjuncts from local suppliers. Total cost of less than $200 including BVM, NRB masks, OP airways, etc.

[Trever]

My spinal column has been very, very good to me ... I'll stick with a demand regulator and get a guaranteed 100%, 80% to 100% can mean the difference between bladder, bowel and sexual function and NOT.


So you purchased an O2 kit with a demand regulator?

[knotical]

A few more thoughts:

Training:
All devices should be coupled with appropriate training. Such training will also help you decide what kit is most appropriate for your needs

Masks:
For any kit, I’d include a resuscitation mask with oxygen inlet (e.g. “Pocket Mask”). They can be used with either breathing or non-breathing patients.
I’d also include a few non-rebreather masks. They’re cheap, disposable (can’t be sanitized) and as previously discussed can provide high concentrations of oxygen for a breathing patient.

For those who like bag-valve masks, by all means, include them. They’re not very expensive. Be sure to consider those that can be used with supplemental oxygen. But note that they are difficult to use in a single rescuer scenario.

Regulators:
The simplest and least expensive kit to consider would include a simple, “one-stage” regulator that provides only an adjustable constant-flow outlet. This might well be sufficient for the casual diver. If I were injured, I’d much rather have one of these around than nothing.

A step up is a demand (patient activated) regulator that includes a somewhat more complex regulator (in the case of DAN’s kit, it’s like having a scuba first stage and a second stage). Typically these first stages also include an adjustable constant-flow outlet so a second patient can be served. This is what I own.

Somewhat more complex is a regulator that adds the positive-pressure ventilation feature, such as DAN’s MTV-100. This will be my next kit.

The crème de la crème would be an Automatic Transport Ventilator that senses the patient’s breathing, or lack thereof and adjusts accordingly. But these cost thousands of dollars, and are probably not a consideration for most.

Cylinders:
The farther away you dive from emergency medical care, the more oxygen you should have.

Summary:
The minimum kit I’d like to see around all dive sites would include:
a small cylinder
a constant flow regulator
a pocket mask
a non-rebreather mask

[Trever]

Summary:
The minimum kit I’d like to see around all dive sites would include:
a small cylinder
a constant flow regulator
a pocket mask
a non-rebreather mask

That is exactly what I have, paid less than $100 for the whole shebang. I am not sure that a size "E" med cylinder is small, it may be considered medium. I also have a simple set of laminated instructions on how to administer first aid O2 using this set up. A 12 year old can use it. The main thing is make sure that the O2 is flowing before you place the mask on the patient.

[Thalassamania]

So you purchased an O2 kit with a demand regulator?Yes, and some non-rebreather masks, and a bag mask, and I usually have an 80 full of oxygen with a O2 clear scuba regulator. Green gas is good gas!

[Guba]

I'm looking directly at information from "Brady-Emergency Care for the Professional Rescuer" (A standard manual for EMT trainees). page 191
Partial rebreathing mask...35-60 percent O2 when delivered at 6-10 lpm
Non-rebreathing mask......80-95 percent O2 at 8 lpm and
90-100 percent at 12 lpm
*the last data is under the understanding that the bag is kept inflated between inspirations.

That's the best data I could find close to hand. Hope it helps.

[Guba]

Talk about the "department of redundancy department"....
I totally missed Trevor's post on the previous page. Sorry to duplicate! But I do that a lot.


Sorry to duplicate!

[Thalassamania]

I'm looking directly at information from "Brady-Emergency Care for the Professional Rescuer" (A standard manual for EMT trainees). page 191
Partial rebreathing mask...35-60 percent O2 when delivered at 6-10 lpm
Non-rebreathing mask......80-95 percent O2 at 8 lpm and
90-100 percent at 12 lpm
*the last data is under the understanding that the bag is kept inflated between inspirations.

That's the best data I could find close to hand. Hope it helps.I'm looking for real data, not quotes from a textbook. I've read (and for that matter written) enough texts to not place my faith there, that's just the best the author remembers and that the the editors missed or didn't know either. On the other hand it may well be right. I'd like the references that support those numbers.

[Guba]

You're on your own on that one, then. The table and text were not acredited (at least not directly), so I couldn't trace the data path. However, I did consult my other manuals from when I was trained as a respiratory therapist (long time ago), and the data was the same (for what that's worth). While it is possible that the data could be mistaken in multiple sources, I think the chances are remote considering that they are both considered industry standard sources for medical data. Were they to be "wrong", the liability issues would be staggering since the manuals are used to train the vast majority of EMS personel and respiratory caregivers. Surely the tort system has put the data to the test on numerous occassions.
However, if someone can provide actual test results, go for it! I'm certain that if discrancies are found, lawsuit lawyers will be looking for a lot of new business! hehe

[divingmedic]

I'm looking for real data, not quotes from a textbook. I've read (and for that matter written) enough texts to not place my faith there, that's just the best the author remembers and that the the editors missed or didn't know either. On the other hand it may well be right. I'd like the references that support those numbers.

The only way to get that data is place a person on the oxygen device and then draw an atrial blood gas.

[Thalassamania]

The only way to get that data is place a person on the oxygen device and then draw an atrial blood gas.Actually that would not work, I'm sure that its been done: nothing more than instrument the various delivery systems with a oxygen sensor.

[divingmedic]

But that is only going to give what precentage of oxygen is being put out by the device. What is more important is what percentage that is being taken in by the hemaglobin. The FIO2 of any device is always subject to a great number of things. Oxygen is only going to help not cure DCS.

[Thalassamania]

But that is only going to give what precentage of oxygen is being put out by the device. What is more important is what percentage that is being taken in by the hemaglobin. The FIO2 of any device is always subject to a great number of things. Oxygen is only going to help not cure DCS.I don't know where you're going with this, but the question on the table is the FIO2 of various masks.

[DaFireMedic]

I'm looking for real data, not quotes from a textbook. I've read (and for that matter written) enough texts to not place my faith there, that's just the best the author remembers and that the the editors missed or didn't know either. On the other hand it may well be right. I'd like the references that support those numbers.

I just pulled out the latest Mosby paramedic textbook, and the AAOS Emergency care textbook and they give similar numbers. The fact is that this is the best data available, and is what is taught and accepted among the emergency medical community. This in itself does not make the data accurate, but it does represent the best data currently available. Such numbers will never be exact under all circumstances. But debating 5% differences in O2 administration is counterproductive, as there are many variables beyond that effect a persons ability to metabolize oxygen (patient's physical conditioning, body metabolism, lung conditions, diseases, etc.) I just want the best method of oxygen delivery for a given circumstance.

[Thalassamania]

I just pulled out the latest Mosby paramedic textbook, and the AAOS Emergency care textbook and they give similar numbers. The fact is that this is the best data available, and is what is taught and accepted among the emergency medical community. This in itself does not make the data accurate, but it does represent the best data currently available. Such numbers will never be exact under all circumstances. But debating 5% differences in O2 administration is counterproductive, as there are many variables beyond that effect a persons ability to metabolize oxygen (patient's physical conditioning, body metabolism, lung conditions, diseases, etc.) I just want the best method of oxygen delivery for a given circumstance.I don't care about the "best" way to administer oxygen to the average patient that is seen on a paramedic run. Just being a diver selects out a lot of people. Actually I'll take that one step further, I'm not overly concerned with the "best" way to administer oxygen to the average diver. My first concern is the best way to administer oxygen to a diver who is healthy enough to pass a diving duty medical exam, because that's mainly whom I dive with, after that comes the question of the "average diver." With a much more uniform population the variables that you mention recede into the background and sheer hard numbers come to the fore. They've got to be out there somewhere.

[divingmedic]

[quote=Thalassamania]I don't care about the "best" way to administer oxygen to the average patient that is seen on a paramedic run. Just being a diver selects out a lot of people. Actually I'll take that one step further, I'm not overly concerned with the "best" way to administer oxygen to the average diver. My first concern is the best way to administer oxygen to a diver who is healthy enough to pass a diving duty medical exam, because that's mainly whom I dive with, after that comes the question of the "average diver." With a much more uniform population the variables that you mention recede into the background and sheer hard numbers come to the fore. They've got to be out there somewhere.[/quot

to put in a very short and simple answer, if they are breathing on their own then a non breather, if not I am going to use a BVM.

[Thalassamania]

to put in a very short and simple answer, if they are breathing on their own then a non breather, if not I am going to use a BVM.but a non breather may be as low as 80%. It seems the only way to guarantee 100% to a conscious diver is a demand valve, and it seems the best way to guarantee 100% to a unconscious diver is either the same or a bag resuscitator if they're not breathing on their own. While they may be the best thing since sliced bread in other circumstances, I just don't see a non breather being an optimum choice in a diving situation.

[divingmedic]

I trust a BVM over a demand valve, but then I have been a paramedic for 27 years and highly skilled in their usuage. It still baffles me why DAN is promoting the use of them when Ems did away with them years ago.

[DaFireMedic]

I don't care about the "best" way to administer oxygen to the average patient that is seen on a paramedic run. Just being a diver selects out a lot of people. Actually I'll take that one step further, I'm not overly concerned with the "best" way to administer oxygen to the average diver. My first concern is the best way to administer oxygen to a diver who is healthy enough to pass a diving duty medical exam, because that's mainly whom I dive with, after that comes the question of the "average diver." With a much more uniform population the variables that you mention recede into the background and sheer hard numbers come to the fore. They've got to be out there somewhere.


I don't think that we are as far from agreeing as what it may seem. You just said that you are concerned with utilizing the best way to administer O2 to the person that needs it, in your case the diver that you are assisting. I agree, but I would add that the hard numbers are irrelevant, as they are not something that you have any control over, except in the choice of delivery device and the proper use of it. If you are using a BVM with supplemental oxygen to assist an unconscious, non breathing person (diver or not), you cannot control the whether it is providing 85% or 100% O2. You can only make sure that the O2 is set properly and that the reservoir is filling adequately, and that you are performing the technique properly. The hard numbers don't matter much at that point, you only need to know that method A gives a higher percentage than method B.


The diving duty medical exam may make it more uniform than the general public, but the same variables still exist, as do the O2 delivery methods for a given situation. Divers come in all physical conditions, undiagnosed diseases, metabolic rates, age, etc, even those who have passed the diver duty medical exam. But these only apply to the persons ability to metabilize the oxygen, not to what method of administration you will use for a given situation. A diver who surfaces unconscious/not breathing will get the same O2 administration method as a bystander on the island who just dropped over from heart failure if they are presenting the same. I am only concerned with what I have control over.

I see what you are saying about the hard numbers with regards to Non-Rebreather vs Demand. This makes sense, although a non-rebreather will provide the highest numbers of its range when the reservoir is filling fully between each breath. The reason I would choose a demand device over an NRB is that the NRB is constant flow, and with a possible limited supply of O2, could mean the difference in preventing a gap in treatment.

[DaFireMedic]

I trust a BVM over a demand valve, but then I have been a paramedic for 27 years and highly skilled in their usuage. It still baffles me why DAN is promoting the use of them when Ems did away with them years ago.

I agree, but as you already know the BVM takes practice to use correctly, far more so than the demand valve. The demand valve is perhaps the easiest to use and teach to the layperson, and they have the flexibilty for use as demand oxygen source for the conscious patient. But I agree, they should be removed from DAN's list of approved devices. I have one on my setup, but only for the conscious person to use, NOT for assisting ventilations.

[divingmedic]

If they are not breathing I would rather intubate them, but I do not go around carrying a advanced airway kit on my dive trips, then we get into the whole medical control thing. I think this horse is dead and beaten to a bloody pulp.

[Thalassamania]

I agree, but as you already know the BVM takes practice to use correctly, far more so than the demand valve. The demand valve is perhaps the easiest to use and teach to the layperson, and they have the flexibilty for use as demand oxygen source for the conscious patient. But I agree, they should be removed from DAN's list of approved devices. I have one on my setup, but only for the conscious person to use, NOT for assisting ventilations.We are in the same court, we're just fussing about details.

[donooo]

The numbers that they use for the demand valve is aproximatly 8 LPM. The non-rebreather mask is set at a constant flow of 15LPM. So round numbers, your O2 tank will last twice as long with the demand valve on a breathing victim.

Just did a DAN DEMP class for an 8 person County SAR team. It took a bit of practice to get the masks to seal in ALL cases. That's the difference between 100% and 80% or less.

Most of the problems with the positive pressure ventillators of the past have been cured by this generation of MTV-100's. The will shut off at a pressure of 40 lb's. The old might continue on to 160.

The DAN Advanced O2 course teaches the MTV-100 and BVM as both can cause damage withour proper training. DAN sells a BVM for $16, that is worth owning with or without O2.

Wish that I could help you with "facts" but it seems to me that if your only source is 100% O2, then a bad seal on the mask is the most likely place to fall below 100%.

adios don O

[oxyhacker]

One thing probably worth mentioning is that most currently available partial rebreather masks have intentional built-in leaks that prevent them from getting much higher than 85% or so, and require wastefully high flow rates to get that.

If a mask cannot be found without the vent, it is possible to modify some vented masks by adding a second valve flapper from another mask, or in a pinch, the administrator or administratee can cover the vent with his/her thumb to obtain a higher FO2.

[Thalassamania]

One thing probably worth mentioning is that most currently available partial rebreather masks have intentional built-in leaks that prevent them from getting much higher than 85% or so, and require wastefully high flow rates to get that.
That's what I'd been told and thus stayed away from them.

If a mask cannot be found without the vent, it is possible to modify some vented masks by adding a second valve flapper from another mask, or in a pinch, the administrator or administratee can cover the vent with his/her thumb to obtain a higher FO2.Good to know.

[Glock Diver]

:deadhorse:

Wow! I didn't even realize the can of worms that I opened!

I went ahead and ordered this kit from Medical Supplies | Airway Management, Extrication & Immobilization, Patient transport Equipment, Diagnostics Supplies and more - GoldenHourMed.com (http://www.goldenhourmed.com) for $276.
Any thoughts?
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z320/MikeVAg33/O2kit.jpg
Sounded like a decent deal, as the kit included more than just O2 supplies. Here's this list:
Fully Loaded Oxygen kit
(1) oral airway kit set of 6 size
(1) oxygen regulator 0-15 lpm
(1) oxygen Tank aluminum C size SHIPPED EMPTY
(1) disposable adult resuscitator BVM with handle
(1) oxygen nasal cannula adult
(2) Oxygen mask non-rebreathing adult
(1) Oxygen mask non-rebreathing pediatric
(1) Blood pressure cuff
(1) Stethoscope
(1) trauma utility shears 7-1/2"&
(1) disposable penlight with pupil gauge
(1) IRON DUCK Pack Case Plus #32499A 19"lx12"wx8"h


The DAN O2 Providers course is on Oct 29. Hopefully I won't need my own O2 kit, but I'd much rather have one and never need it than not have one and need it.

[DaFireMedic]

Kudos to you for enrolling in the DAN O2 class. Hopefully you won't need the emergency skills, but who knows whose life you might save. Good job.

Nice kit. The BVM can be difficult to use as a 1 person skill, but with practice it is the best device availabe for resuscitation within the scope of basic life support. I notice that a pocket mask is pictured, but is not shown on the list. Does the pocket mask have a port for supplemental oxygen? This is very important, especially if you find that you are unable to effectively use the BVM.

Also, be aware that the C size cylinder is pretty small and will only provide oxygen for a short period of time via non-rebreather mask, and only a few minutes at best for resuscitation with the BVM. Even in populated areas, you have to consider the time that it takes to access the EMS system (via cell phone, etc.), the time it takes to dispatch the units, response times for the EMS units, and the time for EMS providers to reach your location on the beach. In the event of a diving emergency, you don't want any gaps in the oxygen therapy, so you might want to consider adding a larger cylinder when you can.

[Doc Harry]

A few more thoughts:

Training:
All devices should be coupled with appropriate training. Such training will also help you decide what kit is most appropriate for your needs

Masks:
For any kit, I’d include a resuscitation mask with oxygen inlet (e.g. “Pocket Mask”). They can be used with either breathing or non-breathing patients.
I’d also include a few non-rebreather masks. They’re cheap, disposable (can’t be sanitized) and as previously discussed can provide high concentrations of oxygen for a breathing patient.

For those who like bag-valve masks, by all means, include them. They’re not very expensive. Be sure to consider those that can be used with supplemental oxygen. But note that they are difficult to use in a single rescuer scenario.

Regulators:
The simplest and least expensive kit to consider would include a simple, “one-stage” regulator that provides only an adjustable constant-flow outlet. This might well be sufficient for the casual diver. If I were injured, I’d much rather have one of these around than nothing.

A step up is a demand (patient activated) regulator that includes a somewhat more complex regulator (in the case of DAN’s kit, it’s like having a scuba first stage and a second stage). Typically these first stages also include an adjustable constant-flow outlet so a second patient can be served. This is what I own.

Somewhat more complex is a regulator that adds the positive-pressure ventilation feature, such as DAN’s MTV-100. This will be my next kit.

The crème de la crème would be an Automatic Transport Ventilator that senses the patient’s breathing, or lack thereof and adjusts accordingly. But these cost thousands of dollars, and are probably not a consideration for most.

Cylinders:
The farther away you dive from emergency medical care, the more oxygen you should have.

Summary:
The minimum kit I’d like to see around all dive sites would include:
a small cylinder
a constant flow regulator
a pocket mask
a non-rebreather mask

EXCELLENT SUMMARY

[jakeeib]

I have 2 size E O2 tanks and since I moved from Germany back to the states had to empty both, so here is my question. Do the tanks need any type of inspections ,like our air tanks, other then the visual from the filler? I f so who would/could do it?

[jakeeib]

also they are steel, i bought both at a goveremt sale as Army surplus each has non rebreathing masks.

[hollywood703]

I have been in EMS for 12 years.....If demand valves were so good, every ambulance and ER would be using them...They are NOT! We use the Masks that DeepB posted with the resevoir bag attached which via medically proven tests that put those masks at as close to 100% as you are going to get using any type of mask. Dont waste your money on a demand valve.

[TC]

I have 2 size E O2 tanks and since I moved from Germany back to the states had to empty both, so here is my question. Do the tanks need any type of inspections ,like our air tanks, other then the visual from the filler? I f so who would/could do it?
They need to have a hydro every 5 years. No visuals required for (medical) O2 bottles.

[TC]

I have been in EMS for 12 years.....If demand valves were so good, every ambulance and ER would be using them...They are NOT! We use the Masks that DeepB posted with the resevoir bag attached which via medically proven tests that put those masks at as close to 100% as you are going to get using any type of mask. Dont waste your money on a demand valve.
Do you have a reference/link for the tests?

[gsmiller]

I live in Northern VA, if anyone in this area is aware of a place.


Medical grade oxygen in Virginia does require a prescription. I am unsure how agencies other than fire/ems can obtain it.

As an EMT-B, I carry a reusable CPR mask (it contains a disposable filter) in my car, which has come in handy on numerous occasions. Just a note however, it's a good idea if feasible to get latex free equipment (gloves, etc) due to latex allergies in some patients.

Also Virginia has a Good Samaritan act which is good to read and understand just in case.
Virginia Good Samaritan Act (PDF) (http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/EmergencyManagement/pdf/goodsam00.vaoems.pdf)

[Glock Diver]

I have been in EMS for 12 years.....If demand valves were so good, every ambulance and ER would be using them...They are NOT! We use the Masks that DeepB posted with the resevoir bag attached which via medically proven tests that put those masks at as close to 100% as you are going to get using any type of mask. Dont waste your money on a demand valve.


I'm going to try a dive shop here in Northern Virginia. I hear they will fill an O2 tank with the proper certification.


I've seen several refer to "medical grade Oxygen" in this thread. Is there a difference between "Medical Grade" and regular Oxygen?

[gsmiller]

I'm going to try a dive shop here in Northern Virginia. I hear they will fill an O2 tank with the proper certification.


I've seen several refer to "medical grade Oxygen" in this thread. Is there a difference between "Medical Grade" and regular Oxygen?

Here's my understanding and I don't claim to be an expert so please correct me if I'm wrong:

Basically the purity of the oxygen -- Cylinders for medical use are cleaned, and vaccuum pumped prior to being filled, removing all impurities.

Oxygen like you would have in your home shop for welding etc, cylinders are less clean and therefore the gas may not be as pure.

Aviation grade oxygen is dryer, the moisture removed -- this way the moisture doesn't condense and freeze at altitude.

[jakeeib]

I asked my local welding supply store about there oxygen. The answer was that ""technically" we dont have medical grade O2 but we have filled tanks for divers in the past."
Is this safe? It would sure cut down on the problems of getting O2 filled from a medical supply store.

[Thalassamania]

All oxygen, of all grades, comes off the same cooling tower. The difference in grade is how they are handled after production.

[dannobee]

You could buy something like this. Sure, the regulator is only 8 lpm instead of 15-25 lpm, but you could always replace the reg at a later time.

BRAND NEW E SIZE ALUMINUM OXYGEN TANK+ REGULATOR+MASK - (eBay item 230181376656 end time Oct-20-07 16:41:28 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-E-SIZE-ALUMINUM-OXYGEN-TANK-REGULATOR-MASK_W0QQitemZ230181376656QQihZ013QQcategoryZ75080 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

I have a DAN kit, which I bought used off of craigslist. I filled it off of the welding O2 bottle that I use for nitrox mixing.

If you're bent, would you argue the differences between welding and medical grade O2 before sucking the bottle dry?

[The Chad]

Not sure if this has been said b/4 cuz I'm too lazy to read thru the entire thread. I passed on buying the DAN kits b/c they are a ripoff. Actually used one b/4 and the demand valve sucked it diden't flow well and there was no purge button. Bought 2 kits off E-bay for less than I would have payed for the DAN. I have some left over stuff if anyone is interested. But I get fills at the local Ambulance place never a problem, and I don't have the cheesy O2 provider card

[**Scuba_Steve**]

I have been in EMS for 12 years.....If demand valves were so good, every ambulance and ER would be using them...They are NOT! We use the Masks that DeepB posted with the resevoir bag attached which via medically proven tests that put those masks at as close to 100% as you are going to get using any type of mask. Dont waste your money on a demand valve.

The demand valve is used to extend the oxygen time not increase the percentage. In EMS you have larger cylinders and more oxygen available then what someone might have on a boat.

[Thalassamania]

The non-rebreather mask cam deliver concentrations as high as 80 to 90 percent when properly hooked up and at the proper flow rate.

Source: Master the EMT Basic Certification Exam, 3rd edition

[hollywood703]

I dont have any Test links, read about it in most emergency medicine manuals/textbooks. As far as Medical grade compared to non-medical greade( welding?) would be purity filters. You would definately want medical grade oxygen for Emergency use.

Yes in an Ambulance we have larger Tanks on board, but still have portable tanks to enter houses etc. I use to have a flow chart showing how long each cylinder size and rate would last. I can tell you at 15 liters per minute a standard D size tank will last 20 minutes. even with a demand valve, you arent going to gain much. A Boat Operation should be Carrying atleast an E size bottle, or several smaller bottles that would Cover the total trip time plus a bit of extra. A demand valve in my mind more prone to the possibility of failure, more moving parts.....a non demand valve is open and nothing is moving....nothing to fail.....Like i said if it was that good ambulances and ER's would be using them, if more time is needed more bottles, or a larger bottle should be used.

As stated above a non-rebreather is as close to 100% as you are going to get unless you are Forcing air into an unconscious person via a Bag Valve mask.

[hollywood703]

also, good summaritan law doesnt apply to Oxygen delivery as it is considered an invasive medical action. CPR, and basic First aid is all that is covered. If you cause complications due to inferior than medical grade O2, you could realistically be held liable for any harm caused by the impurities. I would want to be up to par on all counts. We fill all our personal bottles from inspected tanks, and are covered via our medical control for such Oxygen delivery, but are not covered under good summaritan outside of CPR or basic first Aid and only when we are off duty. If you are Paid to perform EMS procedures, you are not covered under good summaritan. I am not familiar with Dan's O2 classification to what is/is not covered under good summaritan.

[Thalassamania]

also, good summaritan law doesnt apply to Oxygen delivery as it is considered an invasive medical action. CPR, and basic First aid is all that is covered. If you cause complications due to inferior than medical grade O2, you could realistically be held liable for any harm caused by the impurities. I would want to be up to par on all counts. We fill all our personal bottles from inspected tanks, and are covered via our medical control for such Oxygen delivery, but are not covered under good summaritan outside of CPR or basic first Aid and only when we are off duty. If you are Paid to perform EMS procedures, you are not covered under good summaritan. I am not familiar with Dan's O2 classification to what is/is not covered under good summaritan.This is all pure foolishness. It was over 15 years ago that I offered my facility for Jim Corey to run the first public oxygen administration course. How many people have been sued, for any reason, involving the administration of oxygen to a diving accident victim? None!

[Papa Steve]

Wanted to get your thoughts on this. This came from the website:
Portable Oxygen - Emergency Oxygen Tanks - E/Pax - E/Pax DS Emergency Oxygen (http://www.emergencypax.com/oxygen/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,17/category_id,1/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,9999999/vmcchk,1/)


Does the E/Pax Emergency Oxygen System require a doctor's prescription?
NO. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the regulating government agency for oxygen, requires a prescription for medical oxygen, but has EXEMPTED this requirement for emergency applications since 1972. For other medical uses, federal law restricts oxygen to be used by or on the order of a doctor.

[Thalassamania]

The only reason for the prescription requirement is so that chronic lungers can get reimbursement.

[DaFireMedic]

You could buy something like this. Sure, the regulator is only 8 lpm instead of 15-25 lpm, but you could always replace the reg at a later time.

BRAND NEW E SIZE ALUMINUM OXYGEN TANK+ REGULATOR+MASK - (eBay item 230181376656 end time Oct-20-07 16:41:28 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-E-SIZE-ALUMINUM-OXYGEN-TANK-REGULATOR-MASK_W0QQitemZ230181376656QQihZ013QQcategoryZ75080 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)



You would want to replace the regulator right away. These regulators are more for chronic type illnesses such as emphysema which require low flow oxygen. BVM's require a minimum of 15 lpm and non-rebreather masks require a minimum of 10 lpm. It is imperitive that the reservoirs fill when using these devices and you often need more the minimum flow to accomplish this.




If you're bent, would you argue the differences between welding and medical grade O2 before sucking the bottle dry

Nobody would, nor would they argue that they are not getting enough flow if that was the only system available, but the time to prepare is beforehand so that this doesn't happen. You really want to have the proper system before an emergency. The welding grade may be O.K., but medical grade is required to meet a higher standard with regards to filling and handling in order to avoid contaminants. People have died or suffered complications in hospitals due to cylinders not being filled in accordance with standards, resulting in oxygen that was not medical grade. Medical grade oxygen is also required to meet a purity standard set by the FDA. Welding oxygen, while it may meet that standard, is not required to and depending on where you obtain it, it may not be safe.

[hollywood703]

This is all pure foolishness. It was over 15 years ago that I offered my facility for Jim Corey to run the first public oxygen administration course. How many people have been sued, for any reason, involving the administration of oxygen to a diving accident victim? None!


Good summaritan covers more than diving injuries...I do not know if anyone has ever been sued in a diving related o2 administration, however, in Michigan Good Samaritan Law only applies to CPR and Basic First Aid. Oxygen administration is considered a Licensed or Prescription requirement which no longer covers it under good Summaritan. Like I said I dont know Dan's O2 class and what it would/would not cover however, here in Michigan O2 delivery is not covered under good samaritan, Dan might have their own coverage for people who took the course. Are you going to be sued? who knows! is there a chance you could be sued and not covered by good summaritan in Michigan....Yes.

(Just looked up the statute, it covers Basic First Aid, CPR and AED usage in Michigan..It also does not cover any one who has a duty to act..ex on duty Police Fire Ems...etc)..please look up your own States Good Samaritan Laws to know what is covered.

[Thalassamania]

Good summaritan covers more than diving injuries...I do not know if anyone has ever been sued in a diving related o2 administration, however, in Michigan Good Samaritan Law only applies to CPR and Basic First Aid. Oxygen administration is considered a Licensed or Prescription requirement which no longer covers it under good Summaritan. Like I said I dont know Dan's O2 class and what it would/would not cover however, here in Michigan O2 delivery is not covered under good samaritan, Dan might have their own coverage for people who took the course. Are you going to be sued? who knows! is there a chance you could be sued and not covered by good summaritan in Michigan....Yes.

(Just looked up the statute, it covers Basic First Aid, CPR and AED usage in Michigan..It also does not cover any one who has a duty to act..ex on duty Police Fire Ems...etc)..please look up your own States Good Samaritan Laws to know what is covered.This is the same stupid argument that I first heard before you were born. To the best of my knowledge there's never been such a suit. I suggest that at this stage raising the issue at this late date is nothing more than boogeymanism, since the standard of practice in the community is the administration of the highest ppO2 possible as quickly as possible. Give it a rest.

And please, humor me ... spell it "Samaritan" with a capital "S."

[**Scuba_Steve**]

I agree;

Everyone is arguing over this unecessarily.

I was taught to ask the person to if they would like to take the oxygen, advising them that you are trained to administer oxygen and that this may help their condition until help arrives and allow them to hold the mask. Once given O2 they should immediately be sent to an emergency room for an evaluation as well as calling DAN.

If they are unconsious you start CPR, and use the bag if you can (It will be a tough challenge to hold the bag with one person) otherwise just CPR until help arrives.

Any amount given should help the situation. Obviously give the 15 liters per minute with the highest concentration method possible for as long as possible. Bag, Mask, demand valve etc.

[Thalassamania]

I agree;

Everyone is arguing over this unecessarily.

I was taught to ask the person to if they would like to take the oxygen, advising them that you are trained to administer oxygen and that this may help their condition until help arrives and allow them to hold the mask. Once given O2 they should immediately be sent to an emergency room for an evaluation as well as calling DAN.

If they are unconsious you start CPR, and use the bag if you can (It will be a tough challenge to hold the bag with one person) otherwise just CPR until help arrives.

Any amount given should help the situation. Obviously give the 15 liters per minute with the highest concentration method possible for as long as possible. Bag, Mask, demand valve etc.Yep, you do the best you can with what you've got. If you're going to stand around and let concerns over lawsuits keep you from administering oxygen to a injured diver, I won't dive with you and I don't even think I even want to know you.

[DaFireMedic]

Yep, you do the best you can with what you've got. If you're going to stand around and let concerns over lawsuits keep you from administering oxygen to a injured diver, I won't dive with you and I don't even think I even want to know you.

I wholeheartedly agree. If you stay within your training and make a good faith effort to do the best you can, the chances of being sued at all are extremely slim, much less being sued successfully, and I am in a profession that is exposed to lawsuits. Most lawyers won't waste their time on a lawsuit that they know they are unlikely to win when there is so much high percentage litigation floating around out there.

That being said, you have an ethical duty as a dive buddy to do everything within your training to help your fellow diver in distress.

[muddiver]

I did not find anything on the bag valve mask with supplemental oxygen, or the manually triggered ventilator, but logic tells me they also approach 100%.

A BVM with supplamental oxygen, per the DAN Advanced Oxygen First Aid for SCUBA Diving Injuries manual, will get you 90% to 100%.

[muddiver]

also, good summaritan law doesnt apply to Oxygen delivery as it is considered an invasive medical action. CPR, and basic First aid is all that is covered. If you cause complications due to inferior than medical grade O2, you could realistically be held liable for any harm caused by the impurities. I would want to be up to par on all counts. We fill all our personal bottles from inspected tanks, and are covered via our medical control for such Oxygen delivery, but are not covered under good summaritan outside of CPR or basic first Aid and only when we are off duty. If you are Paid to perform EMS procedures, you are not covered under good summaritan. I am not familiar with Dan's O2 classification to what is/is not covered under good summaritan.

Soooo..

Man colapses at work and turns blue and one of the other employees gets the oxygen kit (free flow mask only) and puts it on the casualty. That employee is now negligent per your interpertation of California law, right?

[DaFireMedic]

Soooo..

Man colapses at work and turns blue and one of the other employees gets the oxygen kit (free flow mask only) and puts it on the casualty. That employee is now negligent per your interpertation of California law, right?


Possibly, if that employee knowingly grabs a tank of welding oxygen and administers it to the victim, causing his condition to worsen. I think thats the point Hollywood703 was trying to make.

[Thalassamania]

I know of situations in which a diver was administered welding oxygen through a mask made from a styrofoam cup after exhausting the E bottle. The diver lived, with some residual damage, and did not sue ... he'd likely have been dead otherwise. And yes ... I wholeheartedly support that decision and would do the same myself if faced with the problem.

[DaFireMedic]

I know of situations in which a diver was administered welding oxygen through a mask made from a styrofoam cup after exhausting the E bottle. The diver lived, with some residual damage, and did not sue ... he'd likely have been dead otherwise. And yes ... I wholeheartedly support that decision and would do the same myself if faced with the problem.

I agree....so would I. Sounds like he did a good job with what he had. As I mentioned before in another post, sometimes the life safety issue may outweigh the potential trouble someone may cause you later for it. Once again, I don't think we disagree here.

It is a matter of risk vs. gain. My point is that filling ones O2 kit with industrial grade oxygen is not necessary and adds an increased risk of introducing toxins into the already weakened system of the injured diver. Sure, it might be fine, but I would rather stack the odds further in my favor by using oxygen that has met the FDA requirements regarding filling and handling. You made a similar statement with regards to oxygen percentages. I will not fill my oxygen kit with anything less than medical grade oxygen. My life or that of my buddy are too important. The risk may be small, but its an unnecessary risk.

Once the bottle runs out, the balance of risk vs. gain changes, and just like the diver you mentioned I will take whatever I can get.

[Thalassamania]

I agree....so would I. Sounds like he did a good job with what he had. As I mentioned before in another post, sometimes the life safety issue may outweigh the potential trouble someone may cause you later for it. Once again, I don't think we disagree here.

It is a matter of risk vs. gain. My point is that filling ones O2 kit with industrial grade oxygen is not necessary and adds an increased risk of introducing toxins into the already weakened system of the injured diver. Sure, it might be fine, but I would rather stack the odds further in my favor by using oxygen that has met the FDA requirements regarding filling and handling. You made a similar statement with regards to oxygen percentages. I will not fill my oxygen kit with anything less than medical grade oxygen. My life or that of my buddy are too important. The risk may be small, but its an unnecessary risk.

Once the bottle runs out, the balance of risk vs. gain changes, and just like the diver you mentioned I will take whatever I can get.We agree: always do the best that you can, but don't be hamstrung by having to compromise, innovate or adapt.

[muddiver]

Possibly, if that employee knowingly grabs a tank of welding oxygen and administers it to the victim, causing his condition to worsen. I think thats the point Hollywood703 was trying to make.

What my point is, there are little green boxes in the buildings at teh agency that I work for with flip tops with D or E size cylinders in them. The kit has a standard plastic oxygen mask attached to a "one flow fits all" regulator on the cylinder. They are pretty standard in industrial facilities and most of the employees know that they are available to provide for other sick employees.

If it is so "illegal" to administer oxygen as a lay person or first responder and only "licensed" professional emergency medical personnel can administer oxygen, then why do all the industrial job sites I have been on have these oxygen kits?

[DaFireMedic]

What my point is, there are little green boxes in the buildings at teh agency that I work for with flip tops with D or E size cylinders in them. The kit has a standard plastic oxygen mask attached to a "one flow fits all" regulator on the cylinder. They are pretty standard in industrial facilities and most of the employees know that they are available to provide for other sick employees.

If it is so "illegal" to administer oxygen as a lay person or first responder and only "licensed" professional emergency medical personnel can administer oxygen, then why do all the industrial job sites I have been on have these oxygen kits?

I see what you are saying. I think I remember seeing one of these at a chemical manufacturing plant in our district. I just called the director of EMS in our county and posed the question to her. She said that they are required to have first responder trained personnel on site in order to use them, otherwise they would fall outside the good samaritan laws and could fall into trouble. First responders can administer emergency supplemental oxygen until the point that on duty EMS personnel arrive. But she also said that while not technically "legal" for the layperson to administer emergency oxygen, it is unlikely that any action would be pursued against someone acting in good faith.

I also posed the question of off duty paramedics and EMT's administering emergency oxygen. She said that when they are off duty, it falls back to the protocols governing first responders, and that they can administer oxygen up until the point that on duty EMS personnel arrive, at which point they must relinquish care.

Keep in mind that this is for the state of California, and may not be the case in other states. And as has been pointed out, the higher law of life safety may outweigh the slight yet possible legal troubles.

EDIT: I forgot to mention one more thing. I also asked her about the Red Cross oxygen administration classes for the workplace. She said that she would follow up on exactly where that fits in and let me know. I am unfamiliar with it, but it may fall into that first responders category as well.

[muddiver]

The Red Cross Administering Emergency Oxygen class is listed under the professional rescurer courses, so I suspect that it is usually reserved for someone that has a duty to act through some position of responsability. When I've been involved in teaching Red Cross classes the oxygen administration has always been a supplemental class to the Emergency Response course. I have never seen it offered as a stand alone class.

[robertarak]

I am a C-PRO (CPR for the Professional Rescuer) and o2 Admin. instructor for the Red Cross. The o2 Admin. course is supplemental to that class and not the Lay Responder class. However, to my understanding the good sam laws in most states cover the lay responder within the scope of their training. If the lay responder is o2 trained and acting within the scope of that training (including DAN o2 courses) they should be covered.

[hollywood703]

Soooo..

Man colapses at work and turns blue and one of the other employees gets the oxygen kit (free flow mask only) and puts it on the casualty. That employee is now negligent per your interpertation of California law, right?


I can not tell you what California Law is, in Michigan you Can not administer O2 (its not readily available to administer Either) without the proper training/perscription/or license.


In Michigan The Health Care Provider First Aid training for Red Cross and AHA does not include Oxygen training, however, it appears in some states that they may receive that as an add on.

As stated in my posts, you need to check Your own state laws on what is/is not acceptable.

I also see some people talking about using welding o2 for medical purposes. Im not saying they are wrong in thinking outside the Box.....however, if they cause more harm then good, they Could be (interpreted by a shady lawyer) considered negligent....hence not covered by good Samaritan.

Also, Im talking legal responsibility and culpability, not what you should/should not do if put in that situation.