Shopping DSLRs and Housings, and a bit overwhelmed

Hi all,

So I've decided to take the plunge from P&S to DSLR and have been investigating choices on the internet... and there are a LOT of choices and a lot of opinions. I'd like some ideas on what you experienced DSLR users might choose if you were buying a completely new setup in the next 6 months.

It will probably help if I give you my thought process, so here it is.

My motivation to move from P&S to DSLR is picture quality, pure and simple. I don't think there is any other reason to change. P&S wins (however slightly) on size, weight, cost, and ease of use. DSLR wins on picture quality.

That said, my primary DSLR shopping criteria is size and weight... but I still want the best picture quality possible. Call me fickle.

Back to P&S for a minute, I checked out the Canon G9. It's a tempting option in a slightly smaller package, but it's not really that much smaller than the Oly 410, the Canon 400D, or the Nikon D40x. Of course all of those DSLRs have a lense that sticks out several inches in front. The housings are also a little bit bigger, but some are close enough to the G9 sizes that I'm comfortable with the difference.

I mostly like to shoot macro, but I will definitely buy a "general purpose" lense and port for non-macro dives.

If I'm honest with myself, I'm a lousy photographer. I like to play, and I take shots that make me happy (I've got a smiling spotted eagle ray pic that always makes me smile back), but when I look closely at the shots I take with my Sea&Sea DX3000 and now Oly SP-350, I don't get anything close to the amazing quality of the shots I see posted on this site... but I want a new toy to try.

I like live view and haven't decided, yet, that I have to give that up with a move to DSLR.

The SeaTool housing for the Canon 400D looks like the smallest housing currently available for a fairly current DSLR. Is there another DSLR housing that is close in size?

I'm also a bit curious if Canon might not introduce a 500D in February of '08, and that it might have live view like the recently introduced 40D. I can afford to wait and see.

I have no brand loyalties or pre-existing equipment that will influence my decision. Both my strobes are Sea & Sea YS-25s, so I plan to buy a new strobe as well (probably just one).

My self imposed budget is about $5000.

My timeline to have everything is May 1, 2008. Our next big trip (North Sulawesa, Indonesia) is soon after.

So enough about me. If you were in the position to buy a new DSLR setup in the next 6 months with a budget of about $5000 US, what would you get?

To be honest, there are already some new models with Liveview. The new Nikon D300, the recently launched Canon 40D have Liveview, and the Oly DSLRs also have the capability. I would suggest a camera which you would be happy to live with topside as well as u/w. The variety of lens available for use is also important. Canon and Nikon have the greatest range of lens available, and almost all manufacturers make housing for their cameras.

If you forgo Liveview, you actually have a whole lot more choices, esp in the second market as user upgrade. The D200 should become available in the 2nd hand market when the D300 is available in November. The D80 is also another possibility.

From the Canon range, the 400D would be a good camera to consider.

I would not really recommend the smaller makers as that will limit the housing you can buy. For camera, lens, housing and strobe, a budget of US$5k is barely sufficient, but should get you by if you get the lower end cameras (D80, 400D, or Olys), and a good aluminuim housing (Sea & Sea, Nexus, Aquatica etc). A higher end camera would reduce your flexibility on the housing and strobes. Check out the cameras and the housings available for them. Digideep has a decent database for comparison.

Good luck...

Not much reason to wait on the cameras - the new models won't be released until spring 2008 and housings take months after that usually.

If I had to buy RIGHT NOW...Canon 400D with the SeaTool housing. If I had some extra money and didn't need the housing right away, Canon 40D with SeaTool housing maybe (the SeaTool housing is expected in the new year, so this would tip the scales to the 400D for immediate purchase). The 400 is smaller and lighter than the 40D and that's a big thing for me on land.

I currently use the 20D and wouldn't trade it or the time I've spent with it. You may find this isn't a bad option as now that the 40D is out, some of the 20Ds and Subal housings (the smallest outside the SeaTools and what I use) are coming up for sale. Very good way to get into things. I can't see myself changing underwater systems for at least a while yet!

Lenses to get myself started in the order I'd grab 'em:
Canon 60mm macro
Sigma 17-70 as soon as SeaTool gets the port going for it
The 60 entertains me to no end and has been my most used lens for the past year so even without a port for the 17-70 I'd be a happy camper.

There are more lenses I'd add later, but that's where I'd start.

I have NOT looked into the Canon LiveView so my comments don't apply there, simply due to ignorance. But IMO if you're really after macro photography, I'd think a good P&S is still the way to go vs. a dSLR for the price, unless you want to macro moving things and the shutter lag becomes the limiting factor. If you want to do a mix of things (macro and wide angle) then go DSLR. You'll save a wad of bucks sticking to P&S for macro and get just as good of results from what I've seen posted here and elsewhere (photo specific sites like wetpixel.com).

The G9 you're looking at sounds like it would be my current choice for a P&S...it has RAW, a hotshoe for external strobes (although this is unnecessary if you go with an EV controller or fiberoptic link), and a huge and likely very bright and viewable screen. No ideas on the shutter lag though but as one of the newest P&S cameras i'd hope it's not bad.

If you do go DSLR and consider one of the live view capable ones, read very carefully what is involved in the various live view implementations!! e.g. on the Oly E330 there's an "A" and "B" mode where the A mode uses its own seperate CCD sensor for the viewfinder. The pros are that this uses the same optical path as the optical viewfinder itself, so this LV mode doesn't add any additional shutter lag over just using the VF itself. The downside is that it robs the optical VF of some size and brightness, and doesn't show things like exposure or white balance compensation perfectly. The "B" mode actually moves the mirror out of the way to show you the image on the main sensor, so focus etc. is all included in what you see, but when you snap the shot the mirror's got to go thru a movement so it adds a bit of shutter lag (unless you focus-lock, but generally that's not going to work in macro as I understand it, more for infinite focus). Not as much as in a P&S from what I've read, but still sounds to me more like it's intended for 'on tripod' sort of use. The later Oly models, E410 and E510, did away with the A and B mode and from what I understand mostly implement something similar to the B mode, but a bit less limited and perhaps a little faster than the E330's. Still, most users of the E410 underwater report that they use the viewfinder, not liveview. I have no idea how Canon's chosen to implement this.

Bottom line, if real P&S liveview equivalence is your primary motivator, I'd consider the E330. It's kind of older at this point, only about 7.5 MP, and can be gotten quite cheaply ($340ish body). But you said you wanted the "best image quality possible" and this is less MP than the G9. Up in the air IMO as to whether that's really the true indicator of quality in this comparison...I tend to think MP count isn't the end-all, be-all of camera specs, but the G9 does have an image sensor that's a later generation than Oly's E330 so other things like dynamic range, noise reduction, etc. might also be improved. (**Disclosure: I bought an E-330, but haven't housed it yet. I'm quite happy with my choice since for me "live view" was a very important motivator, but am not trying to talk anyone else into it).

If LV is not the primary motivator, and you still want to go DSLR, then the E410 might be an even better choice. A bit better image quality, a good Oly housing that allows use of the internal flash, etc. It's also extremely small and light for a dSLR.

I'm certainly not going to say anything bad about the Canon 40D etc. options. Canon and/or Nikon are certainly the #1 choices of most underwater photogs, pro and otherwise, and for good reason - but if your budget is $5000, factoring in a lens, housing, and only a single strobe of DS125 or bigger size, and you're going to break that bank in a hurry. $1400 or so for body plus kit lens, $1200 or so for an Ike housing (more for Seacam etc!), $300ish minimum for your first port, $150ish for an arm, $700 or so for a single strobe....you're down to less than $2000 to budget for any port options, lens options (like a macro lens which presumably you'd want!) and a second strobe which if you're going dSLR you'd really benefit from. Compare that to either an Oly body in the $350-500 range ($530-650 with a kit lens), or a good point and shoot like the G9 at $450ish, and you've got a lot more wiggle room in your budget for probably just as good of results if macro is your primary discriminator. I'm looking at spending about $5000 ultimately too...but that's with 2 strobes and the more expensive 8" dome port...and still excluding a killer 7-14 ($1400) lens I'd love to have as well!

I'm still shooting my old Canon A520 (~4MP) and just added a single used Ike DS50 strobe, while I work my way up task-load and handling wise to house the E330, so my opinion might not compare much to the pro or semi-pro photogs like alcina and the like (I only get about 20-30 dives a year, if I'm lucky...). But I can't help but think from your self-description ("I like to play, and I take shots that make me happy") just throwing money at a dSLR might not be the way to go. Then again, I fit that category, and I did...I just haven't completed the throw yet. So if the spending itself makes you happy....

Thanks all for the feedback.

The Canon 400D and 40D are both tempting. I'm leaning a little more toward the 40D, but want to see how much larger the eventual SeaTool housing is over the 400D. The Olympus E-410 is also on the short list, but the available housings aren't quite as small as the SeaTool for the Canon 400D.

RTRski, you pegged my exact thought process. I've been using a P&S for a while and have generally been happy with it, but I'm looking for a step up in quality. The jump from my old Sea&Sea DX3000 to the Oly SP-350 was considerable, mainly because of the increase MPs on the SP-350. The Sea&Sea was/is a great little camera for getting the shot, but if I didn't nail it then not much could be done. The Oly with it's increased resolution and RAW gives more ability to crop and adjust later. Both give (to my untrained eye) about the same initial focus clarity and have similar performance characteristics, with the Olympus being slightly faster on recycle but not as good at the initial focus. With both I have gotten into the habit of half-press focus followed by the shot.

One option I've been rethinking is to upgrade strobe(s) at this time and either stay with the Olympus or move slightly up to either the Sea&Sea DX-1G or Canon G9. Either of those options would be around $1250 after camera, housing, filters/lenses, memory cards, and extra batteries. If I were to go to DSLR, $1250 goes a long way toward covering some of the costs, but if I just upgrade strobes I don't lose anything if I go DSLR later.

I think my plan for now is to stay with what I've got until at least Christmas, then re-evaluate based on announcements at that time. We might do a Cozumel trip or two between now and then, but Cozumel is so easy for us from Dallas and I already have so many pics from there that I don't worry about not having a new toy.

Again, thanks everyone for your feedback. I value the suggestions and will continue to investigate choices.

Banon:

If I'm honest with myself, I'm a lousy photographer.

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Maybe a better option would be to spend a couple hundred on a photography class... just a thought :14:

Not trying to make assumptions, just trying to get a handle on how you shoot... Manual? Aperture Priority mode? Automatic?

The quality of my pics increased dramatically when I got a grasp on shooting in Manual mode. Knowing what Aperture and Shutter do is critical in getting nice shots. I currently shoot with an Oly SP-350 and an Inon Strobe. nowhere near an expert on the subject though

FYI, Sea & Sea should be showing some demo's of their Canon 40D and Nikon D300 housings at DEMA (actual launch I think is early next year).

As for th 40D implementation of liveview, I don't think it's going to help with macro as liveview on the LCD has to disengage to AF, and manually focusing at say 100mm will be pretty tough without an underwater tripod.

Banon, didn't see you were in Dallas before. Not too far from me.

(EDIT - re-read your original post and saw you do have external strobes, so a lot of this was out of place, sorry....but you should see a similar leap going to BIGGER strobes as going from none to the 25's...)

Anyway, I'd say going for an external strobe would be a pretty good intermediate step. As you said, it should give you some more options to play with using your present camera, and can also be used with your next one whether you go DSLR or not, as long as you're thinking in that direction with the purchase (e.g. don't buy something that won't be future compatible with whatever's got your eye as an upgrade path). That's what I did getting a used DS50 on ebay - it came with the sync cord and an EV controller, so I can use it with the controller now and with the cord on an Ike housing for my new system later. The single-handle tray wasn't that expensive and can certainly be ebayed later on to recoup much of its costs - not like it's a "wear" item.

Plus that way you get a chance playing with the extra drag and handling effort of the tray, arm, and strobe and can decide if it's really "right" for your dive style and comfort to go bigger yet to a DSLR. (I couldn't help but notice how much 'size' of housing seems to be important to you, from the E410 comment. And frankly the Oly housing for the E410 looks about as small as you can safely get it and still allow the internal flash - which is rare - and have a good broad throat on it for port flexibility.) I did notice a major 'hassle' increase with the housing/tray/arm/strobe vs. housing alone, but found if anything it kind of stabilized my diving, strangely enough. Something to do with my hands so I'm not playing with different things instead I guess. It did make me suck air faster with shot manouvering - I could compare my log almost dive for dive with a similar trip the year before and see about 5 minute bottom time reduction on the dives I took the camera.

FYI, I got the DS50, arm, controller, and cord for about $315. Watch ebay or the classified categories here (Photo Marketplace) or on somewhere like Wetpixel.com, or email the guys at Reef photo in FL that you're looking for a good used strobe in case they get one in on consignment/upgrade exchange, and I bet you can score one pretty quick. The Oly 350 gets pretty good reviews as an UW camera, as evidenced by the recent posts of people still looking for replacements as they suffer occasional floods....adding an external strobe might just give you a big part of the step up in quality you're looking for. I know my shots are nothing to crow about right now, but considering that not one of the ones I have posted were taken shallower than 40-50', in maybe 50-60' max vis (Flower Gardens) and on a mostly cloudy weather trip, and I could already tell how much better the color was than with my dinky internal flash. That said, someone else with an Oly 350 showed me his shots and made me grumble - he had both a WA lens and external strobe, and the difference the wide angle lens made was also quite impressive.

The DS50 might be a tad 'underpowered' when I go DSLR, but might be quite enough when I'm going more for macro shots. Even if it doesn't have much full-time use after that I'll consider it a valuable 'training wheel' purchase.

Banon:

Thanks all for the feedback.

The Canon 400D and 40D are both tempting. I'm leaning a little more toward the 40D, but want to see how much larger the eventual SeaTool housing is over the 400D. The Olympus E-410 is also on the short list, but the available housings aren't quite as small as the SeaTool for the Canon 400D.

...

I think my plan for now is to stay with what I've got until at least Christmas, then re-evaluate based on announcements at that time. We might do a Cozumel trip or two between now and then, but Cozumel is so easy for us from Dallas and I already have so many pics from there that I don't worry about not having a new toy.

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The SeaTool housing for the 40D is likely to be as form-fitting as the 400D version. While the 40D is a bit larger, especially in the grip, the biggest change between the two is in the weight. BestBuys right now have both in stock, at least on display - go see if one or the other feels better to you as a pure camera.

One other thing to put into your thinking process - likely Canon will have rebates coming out later this month, probably lasting until the end of the year. The European version had both the 400D and the 40D with cash back offers, though we don't yet know what the US rebates will include. When they are announced, take a look at the ending date, and make sure you keep it in mind when you set your "deadline" for a decision. That could save you a bit on your body and even a lens or two. And by then, should have a target release date for the SeaTool 40D housing, too.

Banon:

If you were in the position to buy a new DSLR setup in the next 6 months with a budget of about $5000 US, what would you get?

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If I were in that position and had that budget, I would still get a 10-12mp point and shoot camera like the newer Canon G9 or A650/A640 plus strobe and focusing lights (video lights).