|
|
View Full Version : Agencies
Chet January 13th, 2003, 12:30 PM Ok, here is something that might be interesting. I will concede that the instructor makes the course for diving . Now , lets say all instructors are equal in this thread. Which diving agency has the right idea for training in Ontario or the Great Lakes? divedude January 13th, 2003, 01:55 PM IF... all instructors are equal. Then all agency's are equal for training in the Great Lakes. The PADI vs NAUI vs SSI vs GUE vs YMCA vs TDI vs ect ect ect. will never end!! They all teach "Scuba Diving" I have dove with people trained by every agency out there. Some very good from all agency's, some very bad. Instructors are the key, not the agency. Case in point- right now the big discussion is GUE-DIR vs everyone else. I have dove with people trained GUE, some I would trust my life with, they are "great divers". BUT!! I dove with a couple of others "Trained" GUE and they scared the hell out of me. if I had been in trouble 2 feet from them they wouldn't have noticed, they were to busy screwing with gear. I don't even think they saw the wreck. Becides, would you want a Instructor from any agency, who has only dove in, say the Key's coming up and training in the Great Lakes in 35 degree water at 60'??? Butch103 January 13th, 2003, 02:24 PM Right On !!! I have seen the same....as a matter of fact on your charter........ I agree if all are equal than it doesn't matter. BTW DD hope you had a greatr holiday down south........... Jimmy B January 15th, 2003, 01:37 PM Your right but right now in Toronto, you can get PADI training in a weekend for less than 200.00. I don't think that 8 hours in the pool makes you capable of diving properly. On the other side of the coin, just cause some people get on a boat dressed in DIR gear doesn't mean that they have been trained properly either, you don't need a C-Card to buy gear in Ontario. I have seen divers on lots of boats claiming to be dive wizards and they are just that, Wizards. Just to prove my point home. I saw a PADI instructor dressed in DIR gear knealing on the bottom and causing more silt while teaching students, than at least 2 out of 4students were. Her divemaster and the instructor both claimed to be DIR afterwards, but again I found out the hard way the only way is to do the training. JB divedude January 17th, 2003, 02:23 PM Jimmy B once bubbled... Your right but right now in Toronto, you can get PADI training in a weekend for less than 200.00. I don't think that 8 hours in the pool makes you capable of diving properly. JB Your Right! But it's a start, everyone starts somewere. It's up to each of us to get the training WE need. I love Diving, and by in large it's a very safe sport. But as in any thing, some people are good, some bad, and some, like me just average. taz22 January 17th, 2003, 04:17 PM Jimmy B once bubbled... Your right but right now in Toronto, you can get PADI training in a weekend for less than 200.00. I don't think that 8 hours in the pool makes you capable of diving properly. If I hear you right oyur saying that this organization will process a PADI OW c-card for someone that has not done any open water dives? If this is the case, this instructor needs to be report! "On the other side of the coin, just cause some people get on a boat dressed in DIR gear doesn't mean that they have been trained properly either, you don't need a C-Card to buy gear in Ontario. I have seen divers on lots of boats claiming to be dive wizards and they are just that, Wizards." By who's standard are you saying you don't need a C-card to purchase tanks, reg's and get air fills? I find the above situations as you have described very troubling! If this business is really doing both of the above then need to be reported and scuba divers like ourselves should not shop or support them. Bubble Boy January 17th, 2003, 04:36 PM taz22 once bubbled... By who's standard are you saying you don't need a C-card to purchase tanks, reg's and get air fills? Money talks. You can by anything in a store without being certified. I think the being asked to show a c-card is the exception to the rule and not the norm. need to be reported Who would you suggest? I realize that some charter boat operators are now asking to see c-cards but that is because the insurance companies are putting that onus on them. taz22 January 17th, 2003, 06:51 PM Bubble Boy once bubbled... Money talks. You can by anything in a store without being certified. I think the being asked to show a c-card is the exception to the rule and not the norm. Who would you suggest? I realize that in some cases money talks and in other cases it doesn't. If a PADI instrcutor is doing not meeting the requiresments for an OW student ie; 4 open water dives, you simply report them to PADI. I'm sure Dave Howlett at Scuba2000 who is a PADI Course Director wouls also like to know. The fear I have is if we don't police our industry then the gov't is going to start doing it for us. Ontario Diver January 17th, 2003, 06:51 PM You need a C card to get an air fill not to buy equipment. I know, splitting hairs.... BTW, I have never been asked to show a C Card to get an airfill - probably because I've trained with all the shops that I get air from except one.... and I belong to thier dive club (and I had to show a C Card to join the club. :D ) And as well, a c card just shows that you have been trained, it doesn't show that you have the experience or the attitude. That being said, it depends on what diving you are doing.... PADI, NAUI is fine for rec diving, IANTD, GUE, TDI are great for more advanced diving............The instructor up here is more important than the course protocols especially with technical training! taz22 January 17th, 2003, 06:57 PM Ontario Diver once bubbled... You need a C card to get an air fill not to buy equipment. I know, splitting hairs.... I believe you do need to rent or purchase tanks and reg's. A wetsuit won't hurt you, but if you use a reg wrong it could. Just recently I have heard about the Ministry of Labour (Ontario) doing checks on Dive Shops and the fact that some stores will do air fills withour C-cards. This is what I mean that we need to police our industry or the gov't will do it for us. They are really starting to get serious. Bubble Boy January 17th, 2003, 07:06 PM Just recently I have heard about the Ministry of Labour (Ontario) doing checks on Dive Shops and the fact that some stores will do air fills withour C-cards. This is what I mean that we need to police our industry or the gov't will do it for us. They are really starting to get serious. TSSA went arround checking cascade systems after the tobby explosion. MOL has juristiction in the employee/employer relationship....ie the air a store owner provides to his/her staff must meet CSA spec. You can poison your customers all you want but in the long run its not good for business. LOL Groundhog246 January 18th, 2003, 09:30 AM Ontario Diver once bubbled... You need a C card to get an air fill not to buy equipment. I know, splitting hairs.... In my experience, even if the store doesn't know you, asking for a c-card for air fills is the exception not the rule. I think it somewhat depends on how you look, if you look like you just got out of the water/out of a wetsuit, you most certainly won't be asked. In some cases, I think it's even how you enter the store. Watch a new or non diver struggle with a cylinder or 2, then watch someone with 40 plus dives carry a pair. It's not hard to pick out the one who's been doing it a while and he/she's not likely to get carded. tcarr53 January 18th, 2003, 10:18 AM I must agree with BubbleBoy, there is a labor act out there in this province which covers quite clearly what the standards are, problem being unfortunately these standards are not being enforced and in some cases completely ignored. Problem being at minimum in the event of a lawsuit that air supplier doesn't have a leg to stand on. There is a fair number of cases out there that if they ever decide to go forward somebody is going to be up the creek. ScubaScott January 20th, 2003, 12:49 PM taz22 once bubbled... I believe you do need to rent or purchase tanks and reg's. A wetsuit won't hurt you, but if you use a reg wrong it could. You do not need a c-card for purchasing anything other than air (renting or buying - all the same). Your reg is no different than a wetsuit without a cylinder to put it on..... You also mention Scuba2000.... they are the ones Jimmy B was reffering too. They teach the entire course in a weekend, but that does NOT include your cert. dives, and they are not giving out c-cards until you do your cert. dives. All the class time and pool time is wrapped up in a weekend - thats thier GUARANTEE.......(Learn to dive in a weekend........ GUARANTEED!) Now - IMO this is a crock - I've dove with divers trained at S2K - not impressed is an understatement. I've gone back and forth with Seahunter (instructor from S2K and member on this board from time to time) on this topic, and EVERYONE at S2K think they are doing a great job. It all comes down to $$$$$$$ my friend, and thats why S2K is the biggest and best - they can get diver wannabes out the door in a weekend...... skills are near zero, but they were shown everything on video, so they are ready to go.... SS taz22 January 20th, 2003, 02:34 PM ScubaScott once bubbled... You do not need a c-card for purchasing anything other than air (renting or buying - all the same). Your reg is no different than a wetsuit without a cylinder to put it on..... You also mention Scuba2000.... they are the ones Jimmy B was reffering too. They teach the entire course in a weekend, but that does NOT include your cert. dives, and they are not giving out c-cards until you do your cert. dives. All the class time and pool time is wrapped up in a weekend - thats thier GUARANTEE.......(Learn to dive in a weekend........ GUARANTEED!) SS Well.....based on your points I have a few of my own to mention. My LDS WILL NOT rent nor sell tanks or regs or allow you to get a air fill without your C-card if they do not know you. Secondly, Jimmy B's post about getting your diving training in a weekend seemed to indicate that these people were walking away with a C-card. I called him on that point and you have mentioned about that this is not the case, all they are getting is their confined pool dives. I'm not going to get into the debate whether this is wrong or right it is up to the individual to choose. However, that said, I think that people before they hit the open water should have a good grasp of the scuba skills they need and some pretty decent diving knowledge. :bounce: wes January 20th, 2003, 03:43 PM Now - IMO this is a crock - I've dove with divers trained at S2K - not impressed is an understatement. I've gone back and forth with Seahunter (instructor from S2K and member on this board from time to time) on this topic, and EVERYONE at S2K think they are doing a great job. I'm not sure why you would pick on S2K. As I understand it all PADI dive shops (which is almost all in the GTA) all use the same 2 weekend format. 1. seahunter is the owner of S2K not just an instructor and has been in the SCUBA industry for 30+ years, and is understandably going to defend his shop and the quality of instructing there. 2. Everyone learns at their own pace. I took the 2 weekend course 3 years ago and found it adequate, tho the 8-10 hour days were long. Perhaps you are a slower learner and require more time to absorb information, and thus would not be for you. ScubaScott January 20th, 2003, 04:08 PM The only reason I mentioned S2K (and I shouldn't have - my apologies to anyone whom I may have offended), was because they are the only shop from the area I have ever heard "Learn to dive in a weekend ...... GUARANTEED" My point of this is how can a diver learn the skills to become a - and here's where things get sticky - a GOOD diver in a weekend? I'm not talking the classroom sessions here - I'm talking about diving skills. There is simply not enough time for ANY student to learn all underwater skills, and get them down in a weekend. Sorry - been through this argument before - the skills simply aren't there. And I wasn't putting down Seahunter - I know who he is and his diving history. I don't think there are many others who are as qualified and experienced as him in Canada. Just saying - he and I have gone back and forth on this topic - he has his opinions and I have mine........ Slow learner? I'm hooked on phonics, dude..... SS ScubaScott January 20th, 2003, 04:18 PM taz22 once bubbled... Well.....based on your points I have a few of my own to mention. My LDS WILL NOT rent nor sell tanks or regs or allow you to get a air fill without your C-card if they do not know you. Secondly, Jimmy B's post about getting your diving training in a weekend seemed to indicate that these people were walking away with a C-card. I called him on that point and you have mentioned about that this is not the case, all they are getting is their confined pool dives. I'm not going to get into the debate whether this is wrong or right it is up to the individual to choose. However, that said, I think that people before they hit the open water should have a good grasp of the scuba skills they need and some pretty decent diving knowledge. Taz - do you read all my post or only catch a few key words which you disagreed with? Any LDS I've been to will not sell air (whether buying tanks or getting an airfill) WITHOUT a c-card. Yours won't sell regs - thats up to them. Without a cylinder to attach your reg to, the reg isn't doing much harm...... As to my opinions on weekend training, couldn't agree with you more...... SS taz22 January 20th, 2003, 04:33 PM ScubaScott once bubbled... You do not need a c-card for purchasing anything other than air (renting or buying - all the same). Your reg is no different than a wetsuit without a cylinder to put it on..... SS Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see where you have mentioned Tanks in your previous quote above. In my post I was just telling you what my LDS does. I was merely trying to share information with you rather that trying to piss in your corn flakes. ScubaScott January 20th, 2003, 04:43 PM Should have said "renting or buying TANKS - all the same"...... BTW, your too late..... the wife pissed in the kornflakes very early this morning, which is having a direct link to my bad attitudes in my posts. Sorry guys and gals...... I will try to not let my home life affect my scubaboard life in the future....... SS taz22 January 20th, 2003, 06:11 PM ScubaScott once bubbled... Should have said "renting or buying TANKS - all the same"...... BTW, your too late..... the wife pissed in the kornflakes very early this morning, which is having a direct link to my bad attitudes in my posts. Sorry guys and gals...... I will try to not let my home life affect my scubaboard life in the future....... SS No problem and how it gets better for you! :D Maybe you need to go to the bar for a few :coke: :coke: before you go home! Cheers, Taz! Butch103 January 20th, 2003, 08:20 PM ScubaScott once bubbled... Should have said "renting or buying TANKS - all the same"...... BTW, your too late..... the wife pissed in the kornflakes very early this morning, which is having a direct link to my bad attitudes in my posts. Sorry guys and gals...... I will try to not let my home life affect my scubaboard life in the future....... SS Just remember what rule we live by in our house ( other than grin and bear it)....."If Mommas happy ......we are all happy!!!!"" No matter how painful it is". ScubaScott January 21st, 2003, 08:50 AM Butch103 once bubbled... Just remember what rule we live by in our house ( other than grin and bear it)....."If Mommas happy ......we are all happy!!!!"" No matter how painful it is". Ain't that the truth eh Butch? My dad told me that quite a while ago..... that and " Yes, Dear"..........I'm slowly learning though...... it was a trip to Cayman this spring or a new bathroom........ you should see the shiny porcelain throne we picked up on the weekend! SS eagleray2003 January 21st, 2003, 10:23 AM Iknow the shop you deal with Tazz and the last 2 years while up in your neck of the woods I have purchased air had a friend rent regs and tanks and Mike never once has asked for a c card and he doesn't know me from flint! eagleray2003 January 21st, 2003, 01:16 PM In regards to tcarr53's comments regarding labour laws. do you know something we don't know? tcarr53 January 21st, 2003, 01:56 PM Well Eagleray, I am not prepared to air dirty laundry in a public forum or make accusations that are not completely supported at this time. I can tell you that 3 possible court actions are watching very closely what happens with the pending suit in Quebec, I am also aware 2 people are talking to a major T.V. public information show later this week with hopes of public awareness as to what is going on. My own opinion based on facts I have found, all divers who buy compressed air and those who sell compressed breathing air should be concerned. Bubble Boy January 21st, 2003, 02:21 PM Dont forget to mention a certain article due to be released. taz22 January 21st, 2003, 04:01 PM eagleray2003 once bubbled... Iknow the shop you deal with Tazz and the last 2 years while up in your neck of the woods I have purchased air had a friend rent regs and tanks and Mike never once has asked for a c card and he doesn't know me from flint! Mike is usually teaching and has little to do with the store when doing so. He can't be on the boat and in the store at the same time as I'm sure you know. So if you know this store so well when you bought your air and stuff who was the person you were dealing with? eagleray2003 January 21st, 2003, 04:09 PM The only person I have ever dealt with in that store is Mike himself or Deb. so can't blame it on the hired staff. No store is perfect when it comes to taking money. sparky30 January 21st, 2003, 05:48 PM I just wanted to add my two cents worth ... I have been diving since last July.. So far I managed to accumulate 60+ dives... Mostly fresh water, some with a drysuit, and some saltwater as well.. I did my training as an intensive course over two weekends.. We started Friday evening and did the first few chapters of class room work.. Saturday AM we did the first pool session, Saturday PM we did more classroom work and tests.. Sunday AM we were back in the pool for the better part of the day.. The following weekend was devoted to the open water portion. Essentially it was 4 days spread over two weekends.. I had a choice to do the intensive course or take several weeks as an evening course. I remember things better when the diving follwows the classrom work right away without any breaks.. I don't see why some people are disagreeing with the weekend courses.... It took the same amount of time on the weekend (every day from 8am to 6pm with an hour or two for lunch) than it would if the course is spread over several weeks.. Since my OW I continued on to Nitrox and AOW.. My rescue course is schduled for April and with any luck I'll make it to Master Diver and 100+ dives by the end of this year... Jimmy B January 21st, 2003, 06:23 PM That's 2 weekends and the better part of the day as you just stated, some people are doing half that in weeked. This is a dangerous trend. BTW 60 dives are a lot but and not seeing you in the water , and not a shot at you either, but 60 dives and not to a standard doesn't solve the problem. because bad habits learned are hard to kick. JB taz22 January 21st, 2003, 07:47 PM Personally, I'd like to see people have to completed the OW, AOW and the Rescue Diver Course before they get a C-Card. This would mean they would have 4 CW and 5 AOW and 4 Resure dives before getting a card to dive. I also think a minimum of 50 dives to varied depths and varied conditions ( instead of just 20 ) need to be made before a diver is even consider for taking the Dive Master course. sparky30 January 21st, 2003, 08:55 PM I agree.. A single weekend is not enough.... Personally I think no matter how the standards are set a lot depends on the instructor and the LDS where you did your training. I also think that 50 dives might be a bit much as a requirement to earn a c-card. I really don't think that a large number of dives necessarily means that someone is a safe diver. I've seen some peope with several hundred dives do some pretty goofy stuff. Even if you make the requirement a 1000 dives, some people will still get themselves in trouble by getting themselves into situations that they can't handle.. It is up to each diver to dive at the level he feels comfortable.. Just read 'The Last Dive' or 'Deep Descent'.. Both books are full of experienced demi-gods of the diving world who do stupid things to get themselves killed.. sometimes over something as trivial as a cracked dinner plate...Experience and a lrage number of dives are not guarantee... Some people will always get themselves into trouble.. Bubble Boy January 22nd, 2003, 03:59 PM All I know is that I want to trade my trimix card in for a bubble maker card.... divedude January 25th, 2003, 12:50 PM taz22 once bubbled... Personally, I'd like to see people have to completed the OW, AOW and the Rescue Diver Course before they get a C-Card. This would mean they would have 4 CW and 5 AOW and 4 Resure dives before getting a card to dive. Is that what you did? We ALL started with a OW card. This is a safe sport, even though some try to make it sound "Dangerous" in all the years I've been in the industry I personally knew only 3 people who had fatal incidents. I also rode motorcycles and knew 14 people killed. So I only dive, I sold my bike.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 RC 2
|
