Dives Where DIR fails?

[Divesherpa]

READ CAREFULLY

This is not an attempt to bash DIR or inspire anyone to bash DIR. As I am DIR from time to time (when mandated by a particular dive buddy) and personal preference (most of the time), I want to ask this general question:

What diving situations would DIR not work?

I'll go first. Hopefully the list won't be too long.

1. no mount cave diving

Remember to please keep this in context and not get into a pissing match over DIR. If you believe that DIR will work for every diving environment, then please ignore this thread.

Also, know that to understand a system, you first must understand it weakest links

:weak:

[jonnythan]

Is that the "Right" way to dive places that require no or side mounting is not to dive them until the safest possible system can be developed, and that system is then standardized across your team and heavily practiced.

[Bob3]

Public Safety Diving
Fast Water Drift Diving
Commercial Seafood Harvesting (heck, just about ANY type of commercial diving)
Toss in most types of spearfishing & shutterbugging, to a lesser extent.
or, how about all those nice tropical resorts catering to the twice a year divers?:bonk:

[MikeFerrara]

If one looks at the evolution of cave diving around the world you'll see that the big, completely flooded Florida type caves only exist in a few places. Many if not most caves are dry caves with sections that sump. A cave may have many sumps which need to be passed to explore the dry cave on the other side.

Getting to the sump may require hauling gear a long way over nasty terain doing things like ascending and descending vertical sections of cave using climbing equipment and crawling through tiny cracks. Cave divers have developed methods for conducting this exploration over many decades. Many are very skillfull and have very good safety records. In some places like the UK divers don't get to be cave divers. They must first be cavers. Once you do get to the water it is often low vis and/or small.

The methods developed for conducting this kind of exploration are as valid as any other. These cavers/divers have mapped some of the most significant cave systems in the world.

I won't try to describe the specific methods since I have little experience in that area (see my trip report "Squalid Manor")

A good book to read that will help put it all in perspective is "The Darkness Beckons"by Martin Farr

Exploration of this nature is being conducted all over the world including throughout the US.

With luck Duncan Price (UK cave diver and board member) will step in and give us some info.

[salty]

As far as I know a DIR methoud of sidemount diving exists already. I know public safty and comercial diving dont work but DIR was never intended to cover theas types of diving but some of the princapals do cross over, I am curently working with a member of a local fire dept. in improving there dive squad.

I would like to hear more from the spearo's on the board regarding DIR diving. Especialy gear changes to acomadate spear fishing equipment. I dive DIR and spearfish other than the issues with being close to your buddy( a big issue :boom: ) things have worked out so far.

[MikeFerrara]

Bob3 once bubbled...
Public Safety Diving
Fast Water Drift Diving
Commercial Seafood Harvesting (heck, just about ANY type of commercial diving)
Toss in most types of spearfishing & shutterbugging, to a lesser extent.
or, how about all those nice tropical resorts catering to the twice a year divers?:bonk:

Public safety diving could take some lessons from DIR since the have a lousy safety record. Around here they drop like flies.

We always use teams for taking pictures.

The twice a year resort diver would be less of a Darwin candidate and do less damage to the environment if the took up some DIR methods

[tinman]

Bob3 once bubbled...
...Fast Water Drift Diving...
Bob: what makes DIR not suited to this kind of diving?

[wetlettuce]

Hi

Diving in the sea around the UK we often get significant swells which means we can't always decompress at 6 metres or less. This means that divers use 80% mix and deco at around 9 metres so as to stay at a consistent depth.

Then again DIR's philosophy of detailed planning and preparation using the right tools for the job and all that still applies so by allowing for the weather and water conditions that in itself is DIR despite George Irvine's views on decompression.

I think the WKPP cavediving techniques seem to be what you are considering but I don't think thats the be all and end all of DIR after reading the fundamentals book although I may be mistaken.

The WKPP use the tools that work for them and have thousands of dives to prove it and so some of the stuff they do will naturally be extremely specific to that particular environment.

I believe the general principles work for any non commercial diving environment when you keep an open mind about it.

Do we consider the UK caving scene as diving or caving or underwater caving ?. Thats a debate in itself.

IMHO

WetLettuce

[Bob3]

My examples apply to gear configuration rather than training /mindset. Lord knows everyone could benefit from more training, especially some of those under funded PSD teams.

One single gear configuration just doesn't work in every situation.
In fast water drift diving there are a couple equipment items that need make the difference. I've seen vented fins get stripped off the foot after sticks & rebar spear through the holes.
Long hose is also at issue, you have very little control if divers are stacked one in front of the other, you need to be side by side & close.
PSDing needs the tender topside (no buddy in water) communications & crappy water call for a FFM, and jackets rather than wings because a fair amount of time is spent on the surface.
Bailout bottles are also needed, and dragging doubles down steep embankments & through brush is begging for trouble.
No buddy, no long hose.

As far as the resort diving, gear configuration is again the topic.
You're going to find very few rental/charter ops willing (or able) to shuck out 3-4 times the $$ for gear that most of their customers won't have any idea how to use anyway. That's just the reality of doing business in a competative field.

Spearfishing & the buddy system could take up a whole topic in itself. I'll just say that a good suicide clip is a great thing to have when you're rig diving & you fail to stone Godzilla's grandpa & he takes off for the bottom in 350' of water. You don't want to be fumbeling with a bolt.

[joel_pratt]

Bob,
You bring up some interesting points but you also may have some bad info..

As far as swiftwater goes, not sure what "vented fins" are or why they have holes in them. Most DIR divers prefer the stiffer jet or turtle fins...if you punch a hole in those then you probably shouldnt be diving there. Just because you dive a long hose does not mean that you dive single file...unless you are passing through an obstruction like a pinch in a cave then you should be side by side. You can buddy breathe the long hose side by side with no problem, as a matter of fact the long hose makes it WAY easier to buddy breathe. You can still have the person close, the long hose really adds versitility.

As far as public safety diving goes...I know in this part of the US most of our PS divers do not used topside comms, and crappy vis and harsh conditions is an excellent arguement FOR diving with a buddy. I personally find my backplate and wing substantially more comfortable than my jacket style BC even on the surface. And as for hauling doubles around down embankments...just because you are diving a BP/Wing doesnt mean you are diving doubles. I dive singles with my set up. Not sure why a bailout is needed unless you are diving a CCR, your buddy is your bailout.

For resorts...it is true, initial layout for BP/Wings is more expensive than BUT, as any BP/Wing owner will tell you...the BP/Wing will outlast the BC. Less parts=less maintenance, and I think if most people look past the stigma of BP/Wings they will see that it is even more simplistic than a BC...thats what makes it easier.

Spearfishing, while unique, is still diving. Still need a buddy. Still shouldnt use a suicide clip. I dive in cold water with thick gloves and I have thick fingers to boot...and I still havent seen a situation where a bolt snap was too hard to remove. Plus, I dont know about you, but I sure as heck dont attach my speargun to myself. I would rather buy a new speargun because I let it go that to risk life and limb for a fish.

Hope those examples help Bob!

Joel

[MechDiver]

joel_pratt once bubbled...

As far as swiftwater goes, not sure what "vented fins" are or why they have holes in them. Most DIR divers prefer the stiffer jet or turtle fins...
Joel

Jets and Turtles are two fins he is talking about. The vent holes are potential snag points in a current.

MD

[Scubaroo]

joel_pratt once bubbled...
As far as swiftwater goes, not sure what "vented fins" are or why they have holes in them. Most DIR divers prefer the stiffer jet or turtle fins...if you punch a hole in those then you probably shouldnt be diving there. Joel,

JetFins and Turtles are examples of vented fins - the vents or holes in the fin in front of the foot pocket. I believe Bob is referring to a stick or similar being lodged in this hole and ripping the fin off.

[joel_pratt]

Ahhhhh....I see what your are saying...

[usil]

Your kit isn't what saves you, you is what saves you.
I'll dive with a guy who is cool headed in the water and knows how to think down there but only has one reg and uses a only a drysuit for inflation over the guy kitted up to gods standards.

When **** hits the fan I don't care if you have every nut and bolt in the right place, if you can't use them then YOU arn't much good.

KIT IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT GET OVER IT
Experience is all that counts

[100days-a-year]

Spearfishing with a buddy here is the easiest way to consistently enrich your local grocer.As we start getting deeper we get closer to DIR as it becomes an overhead environment.Still doing dives to 150'on EAN25.Dive long hose always when diving doubles as we're usually doing deco and meet as buddies at the anchor on the way up.All gear is clippable to allow for sleigh rides and comfortable ascents and hangs.Run a variety of profiles and mixes and you'll find that all Deco programs will occasionally have shorter hangs with "alternative" deco gasses.50 and 100% are the best standard,but not always the fastest out of the water.

[Divesherpa]

100days-a-year once bubbled...
As we start getting deeper we get closer to DIR as it becomes an overhead environment.Still doing dives to 150'on EAN25.

What are you saying here? I fail to understand where DIR comes into play with a 150' END.

[Dryglove]

usil once bubbled...
Your kit isn't what saves you, you is what saves you.
I'll dive with a guy who is cool headed in the water and knows how to think down there but only has one reg and uses a only a drysuit for inflation over the guy kitted up to gods standards.

When **** hits the fan I don't care if you have every nut and bolt in the right place, if you can't use them then YOU arn't much good.

KIT IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT GET OVER IT
Experience is all that counts

Its a combination of both that counts and not just one or the other.

[djhall]

joel_pratt once bubbled...
As far as public safety diving goes...I know in this part of the US most of our PS divers do not used topside comms, and crappy vis and harsh conditions is an excellent arguement FOR diving with a buddy. I personally find my backplate and wing substantially more comfortable than my jacket style BC even on the surface. And as for hauling doubles around down embankments...just because you are diving a BP/Wing doesnt mean you are diving doubles. I dive singles with my set up. Not sure why a bailout is needed unless you are diving a CCR, your buddy is your bailout. I am not an expert on the subject by any means, but I do know that accepted best practices for public safety divers dictate an entirely different method of operation. PSDs typically work with long exposure times, hazardous situations, black water, tethers, and hazmat sealed full face masks/helmets. Putting a pair of divers in the water means you need twice as many divers to run your operations, you risk loosing two divers to a single catastrophic situation (hazardous materials exposure, shifting of a sunken vehicle, tree floating down the river which wipes out your dive team, etc), your divers may not be able to see each other at all in black water, they risk entangling themselves in each other's tethers, and their equipment does not easily allow air sharing. Therefore, PSDs typically dive individually while tethered by a line and a constant communication link to a tender. A backup PSD and tender are ready to dive at all times to aid the primary PSD in case he gets into trouble. In case of emergency, the bailout bottle helps the primary diver reach safety or survive until rescued by the backup diver (who follows the tether to find the endangered primary). In this kind of diving, dedicated topside voice communication is absolutely required. Unfortunately, many (most?) PSD teams do not have the funding to obtain proper training or equipment.

[joel_pratt]

usil once bubbled...
Your kit isn't what saves you, you is what saves you.
I'll dive with a guy who is cool headed in the water and knows how to think down there but only has one reg and uses a only a drysuit for inflation over the guy kitted up to gods standards.

When **** hits the fan I don't care if you have every nut and bolt in the right place, if you can't use them then YOU arn't much good.

KIT IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT GET OVER IT
Experience is all that counts

I dont think anyone will argue that experience is extremely important...however, if you understand what DIR is then you know that equipment is about 20% of the whole picture. The techniques, skills, and philosophy are a HUGE part of DIR.

I was simply addressing Bobs concerns about particular pieces of gear and was not implying that gear was all there as to it.

Joel

[Duncan Price]

...sorry I'm late!


MikeFerrara once bubbled...
With luck Duncan Price (UK cave diver and board member) will step in and give us some info.

I'll start off with some general observations about conditions in the UK before I mention "DIR" or its proponents and then return to the original question:

Cave diving in the UK is not a branch of technical diving, but more a form of technical caving. The hostile nature of British cave diving in poor visibility, cold water and restricted passages means that solo diving with side mounted cylinders is the norm. 100% redundancy of all equipment and strict attention to safety is essential. The nature of operations beyond sumps requires the cave diver to be proficient in all aspects of underground exploration: climbing, ropework, surveying, digging, photography and particularly first aid. The British cave diver tends to be motivated to discover new cave passage and is highly self-reliant.

The governing body and certifying agency in the UK is the Cave Diving Group (http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk) which was founded in 1946 by cavers but probably represents the oldest "technical" diving agency in the world. The CDG has own training/examination system and produces a quarterly newsletter and occasional publications such as sump indices and training manuals. Members of the CDG may be called upon to assist in cave rescues, particularly those involving cavers trapped by flooding.

I have been informed that GUE, as an agency, not only respects this activity undertaken by the CDG but also >recognises< at its highest level that:

"... is a highly specialized activity and as such it requires special consideration... with long range dry pushes changing the picture with respect to equipment, management, and that this, and other sump-push properties, also require proper management. Caving is a rather brutal, unique activity with very special needs."

UK cave diving is Hogarthian in the extreme to the point that any unessary clutter is stripped away to the case of diving using a single sidemounted cylinder, no fins and no buddy where necessary.

Ask any British sump diver if there is a "Right" way to cave dive and they'll tell you that it is the one they use.

Easy access sites like those dived in Florida by divers using the "DIR" style rig represent a small minority of underwater caves. The majority of [u]exploratory cave diving is carried out by divers not using this configuration.

It is very easy to be critical about equipment but often this criticism is framed out of context. It is self-evident that team diving with manifolded backmounts, stages on the left hip and breathing from the long hose is not a universal panacea for all types of diving. As a previous contributor intimated, experience, teamwork and determination are the common ingredients to success rather than which way you route your hoses. The question is not about equipment, it is about attitude, and DIR has plenty of that.

Duncan

[usil]

Duncan your my new hero!!

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks Duncan.

Has anyone looked around the CDG web site? What do you think?

[100days-a-year]

Divesherpa,I said closer to DIR.As in we buddy up,dive with redundant tables,BT etc..7' hose,HPsteel or AL doubles when wet.Will never be 100% but get closer as we get closer to what DIR was designed for.Most of my buddies are full cave ,mix or at least Adv.Nitrox so DIR is well discussed among us but we only implement the tenets that we are able to incorperate into our diving.If I ever decide to get full cave I'll be diving as DIR as I can get.Did I clear that up?

[SeaJay]

I'm currently undergoing a DIR conversion. I take my DIR-F course next weekend in Atlanta.

...But I'm already diving a Hogarthian rig. Simply put, when it came time to select my own gear, I started looking around... And the possibilities of gear configurations led me to DIR, which led me to the understanding of DIR as a whole, not just the gear configuration.

The reason that I felt it important to speak up here is this... I'm a Rescue Diver for my local Fire company.

...So I've got experience with exactly what you're speaking of... And I can tell you that many of the reasons that you're listing as "inappropriate for DIR" are exactly the opposite... Not only appropriate, but preferred by those of us who are doing the rescuing.

Case in point: I'd been called out for some dumbass who was loading his boat on it's trailer when the truck's e-brake gave out. The whole shebang went down the ramp and into the water. It even took the boat with it, as it was already tied to the trailer. Apparently the tongue weight alone sank the trailer and boat.

When I get there, the guy is amazingly calm. At this point, we suspect an insurance fraud scheme. But at the time, my biggest worry was that he couldn't tell me if there was anyone in the truck when it went down (it was like a panel truck, not a pickup truck.) He said he couldn't remember if his daughter was with him or not. :confused:

There's additional problems, too... Vis is nonexistent, (6" or so) and there's no tellin' if his truck or whatever is blocking the ramp or what. The whole thing could be way downstream by now. What was virtually no current when the rig sank is now a 3+ knot ripper. Furthermore, We have no visual signs of oil slick or anything telling us where the rig is.

To make matters worse, the water's a chilly 50 degrees, and we do not have a boat in the water. We know that the land after the landing breaks off sharply into a deeper part of the river, but we're unsure how deep. Experience in this area helps us to know, however, that we can expect a max depth of no more than 50 fsw or so.

I'm using fire company gear. I can choose anything. What do I choose?

7 foot hose, Halcyon SS bp, 9 lb STA, no weight, 3 mil suit (that's all we had that day... I'd have rather been diving dry due to the chilly water) and a single AL80. One light clipped to my right D-ring, SPG, 50 lb lift bag, spool clipped to back D-ring, TWO giant leg knives, Mares Quattro fins, and a wrist-mounted compass and depth guage.

That day, all of my gear was DIR. Sure, some could argue that the Quattros aren't "standard issue," but I needed a long, powerful fin for the heavy current. Of no concern was the possibility of "silting." The water was already silted. No split fins, please, I need the sheer torque and power, and the ability to easily use any fin kick I needed. Jet fins also would have been great, but I have found that I can get a little more power out of these in heavy current (although they don't have the stiff maneuverability that the Jets do). Some may argue, too, that the leg knives were not DIR either. DIR is not about doing your gear one way and only that way... It's about diving with what you need, and only what you need. Normally, I would have dove only with a belt-mounted knife. But these were used to stick into the muddy bottom so that I didn't get swept downstream. Think of them as "pegs" to go into the bottom. Both of them by the way, were mounted on the inside of my legs to prevent snags with my lines, which I was certainly going to be dealing with.

The 7 foot hose was desired for two reasons... First, my rescue victim, if I had one (and who likely wouldn't need it any more by now), was likely going to be in full-panic mode. As a Rescue Diver, my last desire is to come in physical contact with that person. I need to comfort them and help them without touching them, if possible. If they need my reg, then I need to have it as accessible as possible to give to them, and on the longest hose possible so that I can avoid being grabbed by them if possible. The 7 footer is great in a rescue situation. It allows me to keep my distance... Or to get them air while doing any tow I choose, in any position. The shorter hoses don't let me have as many options, and force me to physically touch the victim, which almost always involves them trying to literally climb up on top of my head, making rescue impossible. Amazingly, a panicked person almost never thinks of pulling you toward them by pulling on the hose... But they will definitely lunge at you. Heck, if I could swim with a 20' hose... Anyway, the second reason that I chose the 7 footer was because a short hose makes this huge loop over your right shoulder. The 7 footer tucks neatly behind your head and across your chest. Sure, it sounds like a pain, but it's great. It's streamlined, and won't vibrate in a heavy current like a short one will. Believe it or not, short hoses are more in the way than the long ones.

Zero vis means that your buddy is nonexistent. DIR teaches incredible buddy awareness, but there's simply no way of doing that in this water, so my buddy stayed up top to support with a line... And thus was DIR. (If that concept confuses you, before arguing with me, please read the DIR Fundementals book.)

I never even put air in my BC. I crawled into the water on my hands and knees, facing the current. I held a reel line in my hand to receive signals with (buddy was on the other end with instructions to let me have 75' and give me a a twice-tug) and with both leg knives drawn. Many people think that I should have had a whole bunch of weight to keep me on the bottom, but my rig was trimmed well. I found it easier to keep myself on the bottom with the DIR trimmed position... Legs up, fins up, placing some downforce on me to keep me submerged.

I went in to the water, stretched out 75', stayed on the bottom, and held myself in place with my knives. No point in the mask or the light, but I wanted them to search the interior of the vehicle for life when I got there, and I might need them at that time. Also, if there was a victim and he/she was still alive, likely it would be because they were trapped in a pocket of air inside the truck... Which would most definitely be very, very dark.

Once the line was tight and the signal given, I allowed myself to drift backwards slowly, until the line became parallel with the current. I then knifed my way (and swam some too) up to the snag point in the line... The vehicle. Four tugs on the line... I've reached the target. Tie off, Take out spool and use it to enter the vehicle, feeling for arms, legs, and hair. Luckily, there was nobody inside. No air pockets, either. Either she wasn't in the vehicle when it went down, or the body's already downstream. Luckily, most dead bodies float (especially the female ones), and nobody'd seen anything. To me, no body meant nobody was in that vehicle when it submerged. Whew.

At that point, I used the line from my buddy as a guide and knifed sidesways back up the landing. A tow truck had already been called, and my buddy brought to me the hook from the truck's winch. Check for max depth during dive... 38 feet. Cake.

Knife back down, bringing with me the heavy hook, but knowing that it would simply keep me on the bottom. Find the front of the vehicle, attach correctly, and get back out of the water.

There was lots of applause when the rig came out of the water... On it's side. Boat and trailer still attached. Owner didn't look too happy, though.

Anyway, my point is that I would not have felt as comfortable using a jacket in this case. It's extra material would have been a real problem in the current. My tank was an AL80, and a single. The 7 foot hose was very much a plus in this environment. And the lift bag, which I often need to mark the target, is held invisibly in the Halcyon backplate. Try that with your average BC.

The DIR system was completely appropriate for this dive, as it would be with any Search and Recovery or Rescue dive. Luckily, it didn't turn into a Rescue dive... But if it had, I'd have been prepared with a long hose and perfect trim and buoyancy. Surface problems that you think are there with this rig most definitely are not. The rig is stable and neutral, even at the surface because all of your weight is behind you. I prefer to weight and trim myself properly and forgo the use of ditchable weight in these situations... I can swim up any bladder problem, and there's nothing for a panic-stricken victim to pull off of me, causing sinking problems for them and buoyancy problems for me. Simple is beautiful, man.

I recommend the system... Especially when it comes to life or death, emergency situations, technical diving, caving, overhead, current, or any other dive.

As far as the whole spearfishing/suicide clip thing goes... It wouldn't surprise me if the makers of DIR allowed for the use of a specialized clip, specifically designed TO snag a part of the rig. The reason that DIR teaches against suicide clips is because they snag... And generally, that's bad. But if that's exactly what you're looking for it to do... Well, then you've found your piece of gear.

The idea is to dive with what you need, no more and no less. And that's just the equipment part of DIR, which is not even half the picture. DIR is much more than an equipment configuration.

[Waterborne]

[QUOTE][i]joel_pratt Not sure why a bailout is needed unless you are diving a CCR, your buddy is your bailout.


I would have to disagree with that statement. A self-sufficient diver is a good diver. Complacency is brought on by thinking like this in ANY kind of diving.

[Divesherpa]

Seajay, I have to disagree with you. I was a rescue swimmer in the military (among other things), so I'm not speaking from lack of experience.
Your ability to add and subtract what you want makes it un-DIR. Two leg knives make your rig un-DIR.

Hogarthian is great for many applications. Getting rolled in a hydraulic on a river run is not one of those places. Maybe it will work in parts of South Carolina.
I hope it works for you and good luck in your pursuits. Also, you don't get DIR from reading on the net and diving Hogarth. Take cave III and you will begin to understand.

Cheers and thanks for helping mankind!

[SeaJay]

Divesherpa once bubbled...
Seajay, I have to disagree with you. I was a rescue swimmer in the military (among other things), so I'm not speaking from lack of experience.
Your ability to add and subtract what you want makes it un-DIR. Two leg knives make your rig un-DIR.


That's not how I read the DIR manual. In fact, I'll quote: "Most divers do not need a large, ungainly knife attached to their leg." That comes straight from the DIR-F manual.

Notice that he says "most."

With all due respect to your Rescue Swimmer abilities, where were you taught that DIR meant one rig and one rig only? The whole point to the equipment side of DIR training is the modular rig that allows you to add and subtract from the rig without having to change your core equipment.

I'll talk to Andrew this weekend, as I'm taking his class. My bet is that he'll agree with the DIR philosophy of "Take all that you need and leave behind all that you don't." My bet is that he'll agree that some sort of holding device was appropriate in this water for this dive, and he'll agree that a BFK would have done the job. He'll probably also have some other suggestions as well.

We'll see.



Hogarthian is great for many applications. Getting rolled in a hydraulic on a river run is not one of those places. Maybe it will work in parts of South Carolina.


Hmmmm... Have you ever dove one of these rigs? I can't imagine that anyone who's dived one of these rigs wouldn't see and feel immediately the advantages in the rig.

So you're saying that a HUB system would have been more appropriate? A jacket style BC? A back inflate? An AT Pak? No BC at all?

From a standpoint of being in the water that day, responsible for the rescue, and in heavy current with zero vis, I respectfully disagree. It's the rig I chose... And I could have chosen from many different things that day.



Also, you don't get DIR from reading on the net and diving Hogarth.


I'm fully aware of the way to "get DIR." I'll give you a full review of the Fundementals class after this weekend. As of now, I've only watched all the videos, read all of the "basics" books, and dived several different rig configurations... Including DIR on many dives. Oh yeah... I've done about a dozen dives with DIR divers, too, so I'm learning a lot.

My point is that while I might not be the resident expert on DIR, I certainly am learning... And to say that I have no knowlege whatsoever is as incorrect as saying that I know it all. I find your insinuation that I "got DIR" from "reading on the net" pretty insulting. You might want to check the archives, there, bud.

Are you claiming to be DIR? You certainly sound like it with your condescending tone. And yet, your ideas on what DIR is directly contradicts what I know of DIR thus far...

[Divesherpa]

SeaJay once bubbled...




With all due respect to your Rescue Swimmer abilities, where were you taught that DIR meant one rig and one rig only?




Hmmmm... Have you ever dove one of these rigs?

About 1500 of the last 2000 dives (excluding a few OW dives, sidemount, and no-mount) have been Hogarth or a modified version of it.

So you're saying that a HUB system would have been more appropriate?

You've got the right attitude for assimilation. I truly wish you luck in your journeys in South Carolina

From a standpoint of being in the water that day, responsible for the rescue, and in heavy current with zero vis, I respectfully disagree. .

I am thankful that your dive went well. I hope all future situations go well also.



I'm fully aware of the way to "get DIR." I'll give you a full review of the Fundementals class after this weekend. As of now, I've only watched all the videos, read all of the "basics" books, and dived several different rig configurations... Including DIR on many dives. Oh yeah... I've done about a dozen dives with DIR divers, too, so I'm learning a lot.

No need to give me a lecture on DIR. I am DIR when I dive with my GUE friends. I am GUE trained as well. The fundamentals class will be a great experience. I hope you gain information that will be helpful to you.


Are you claiming to be DIR?

I only claim to be myself. I am not DIR. I don't like labels. I simply dive.
Good luck to you. If I insulted you, it was not my intention. I appreciate what you do. I don't agree with your philosophy, but we have all been new and excited over an idea. I was also very excited about the DIR concept until I started finding limitations. Now, due to dealings with many individuals (GUE and other), I have a more rounded view of the scene and due to my location (15 miles from GUE headquarters), I also have much more access to the meat of the organization.
GUE is a wonderful organization that is steeped in large teamwork dives. You may want to move to Florida and join the team. The protocols that are taught are based in Wakulla. GUE is an extension of a dive project that is turning heads. Good for them and good for you for wanting to learn. Just remember to keep your mind open and your feet up.
Cheers,

[SeaJay]

Hm.

Well, what else can I say but "thanks?"

I promise to keep my mind open. I'll post a full review of DIR-F when I get back on Monday.


If I insulted you, it was not my intention.

Thanks for not letting our discussion get "out of hand." :mean: I appreciate you making that clear. It was pretty easy to get pretty insulted pretty quickly, and I was smellin' a flame war that I really wasn't looking forward to.



Just remember to keep your mind open and your feet up.


I promise.

I'll keep your suggestions in mind, and keep a special eye out for them. Thanks for the heads up.

[Doof]

So what would be the proper rig for the situation that SeaJay described? Stating that he's brainwashed is all well and good, but it hardly helps to identify a more appropriate alternative to the setup he chose.

[leadweight]

There have been many threads in the BC forum debating whether a BP & Wings is the best rig to use when diving singles, especially in warm water. Bob3 alluded to this concept with respect to photographers and warm water divers. I am not going to get into the specifics to avoid repeating that debate here.

I would have to agree with Bob3 in this respect.

It is also my general view that DIR is a bit too demanding and comprehensive for the recreational diver. It is one thing for a cave certified diver to want to dive the same rig (with a single) on a warm water trip. It is quite another to recommend the same setup to a recreational diver with no tech diving ambitions. That does not mean that a recreational diver may not choose to be DIR. But, for me that choice would get in the way, rather than enhance the diving experience.

Furthermore, I can't imagine diving without a computer in a no overhead, no deco stop enviornment.

[Hoppy]

MikeFerrara


I have been all over the CDG website and all I can say is as a UK diver the idea scares the c**p out of me !

Open water is bad enough over here sometimes, without trying some of the things these guys do.

I have the utmost respect for these barking mad people ;)

Seriously though, I have read extensively about the WKPP teams explorations and while they are awesome I wonder how many of these people have been cave diving over here ?

Surely the more extreme conditions would push the DIR theory to new limits, or (god forgive me for saying) possibly point out some weaknesses ?

I AM NOT looking to start a war here folks , just as a very inexperienced diver posing a question to all you who have vast amounts of experience in this area.

Personally I am still trying to come to terms with what I have been taught and am leaning towards the long hose idea, which to me seems infinitely more sensible and practical. (I'm PADI taught, surpise surprise).

The discussion over fins etc goes over my head to be honest. I am sometimes left with the impression that some of the DIR stuff is hype to sell a certain companies gear ! Anyone want to comment on that one ?

Just to say to Seajay , I hope this weekend goes well, and PLEASE tell us how it went ?

I for one will be waiting with baited breath ! (but still blowing those tiny bubbles like I was taught) :)

Thanks again all for a stimulating thread.

Hoppy

[tinman]

Doof once bubbled...
So what would be the proper rig for the situation that SeaJay described? Stating that he's brainwashed is all well and good, but it hardly helps to identify a more appropriate alternative to the setup he chose.

...well put Doof. It is the illuminating not denegrating statements that keeps us all coming back here - well, most of us I guess!

I have benefitted from DIR and Non-DIR proponents; however, DIR would seem to have the lion's share of diving wisdom based on hard won experience. Let's keep the reasoned debate going, everyone can benefit. Park the egos at the door, we're all adults here, trying to safely enjoy a dangerous sport...

[Cave Diver]

Hoppy once bubbled...
The discussion over fins etc goes over my head to be honest. I am sometimes left with the impression that some of the DIR stuff is hype to sell a certain companies gear ! Anyone want to comment on that one ?


I'll jump in on this one. As anyone who has taken a DIRF class knows, or someone who has really read the book and paid attention, there is no specific brand of gear "required."

They set certain parmaters, or expectations of different pieces of gear. As long as the gear meets these requirements it doesn't matter what brand it is. For example, OMS just announced a line of "DIR Friendly" gear to compete with Halcyon.

Halcyon is an equipment manufacturer that was created just to address the some of the specific needs of DIR. That doesnt mean that the gear HAS to come from them, but the quality of stuff they produce is generally better.

Hope this helps

[Hoppy]

Explains a bit about Halcyon, I didnt mean to have a pop at them. Just that it seems that everytime you read about DIR their name appears as well.

I appreciate if the kit is of higher quality then fine.

You are quite right in your assumption, I havent read the book and not done a class. But hey , I only got so much money !

Can you get classes here in the UK ? What std of diver and how much experience should someone have before doing a dir-f ?

Hoppy

Oh , sooooooo much to learn :bonk:

[SeaJay]

DIR doesn't say "no computers."

Who told you that?

DIR says, and I quote, again out of the DIR-F manual, that "DIR discourages the use of computers."

Further reading shows why...

Many divers who use computers (and I'm sure you've seen them yourself) rely on their computer so much as to have no familiararity with their dive tables whatsoever. They have no clue how long they've got to safely be underwater. They use the computer instead of dive planning, and they have no idea what their pressure group is or their saturation level.

I'm not talking about "tech" divers here... I'm talking about no-deco diving... What most people would call, "recreational."

On the other hand, Decompression divers, when choosing a computer, are faced with problems that aren't apparent to the no-deco diver. There are all kinds of arguments currently about decompression alogarithms, bubble formation theories, and the like. Purchasing one kind of computer over another can mean radical differences in deco times... And that's assuming that you're diving some kind of Nitrox blend. (Such as air or O2 enriched air.) So the question then, really, is "which computer do you believe?" And, "Are any of them going to be able to be used when the dive gets serious and you start using Trimix or Triox or whatever?"

Now, imagine a decompression diver relying on a computer... Just doesn't seem prudent, does it? Especially if the computer's effectiveness is currently being questioned anyway?

But your point is made about the "recreational" diver, by which you mean, "non-deco" diver, right?

Well, this affects the non-deco diver as well... What if there's a failure? What if the computer doesn't work? What if medical science comes to the conclusion that the alogarithms used in that particular model are not sufficient? Then that diver is relying on a computer which may or may not be able to perform it's job correctly, for a whole slew of reasons.

That's why true understanding of dive tables and decompression theory, and proper training and dive planning are so crucial. DIR teaches divers to be able to "off the cuff" estimate their pressure group, their air consumption rates, and even their remaining air supply an uncanny accuracy. It's not impossible to do... You just need training for it. And when that happens, well... You use your knowlege and understanding and experience and training to ensure that you're diving safe... Even if your battery dies or your computer floods or your band breaks or whatever.

I like computers. I will use one. But that doesn't make me not DIR... That makes me redundant. I now have a primary source of information... My brain... And a secondary source of information... My computer. Not the other way around. Personally, I like the concept, since nitrogen narcosis is a reality, and it's nice to have a back-up.

But the key is to not use the computer as a crutch. Thus, DIR "discourages" the use of them. But choosing to dive with one doesn't make you non-DIR.

Who told you that?

[SeaJay]

The DIR-F book is available online. I think I paid around $20 for it. (What's that, like 12 pounds?)

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised that the DIR-F book sounds very much like the PADI Advanced Open Water manual. In DIRIII, the video, GI3 says, "If we could just get everyone to go over the first few pages of the PADI Open Water I manual, there'd be a whole lot less misunderstandings..."

However, the DIR-F book goes much further into detail as to WHY and WHAT brought them to that conclusion.

It's good stuff... Highly recommended.

And your comment about "the waters in the UK..." I hate to tell you this, but it's the same water. :D

And something tells me that the same ideas would still apply.

[leadweight]

Please provide a link to the dir-f book, Seajay.

On the fly nitrogen calcs would be a nice thing to learn.

Gotta go, Belize awaits.

[JeffAustin]

The computer is fine, until it locks up because it doesn't agree with your deco plans. That's when they let you down. Put it in gauge mode, plan your dives, folllow your plan.

[The Pirate]

SeaJay once bubbled...
I'm currently undergoing a DIR conversion. I take my DIR-F course next weekend in Atlanta.

... TWO giant leg knives, ... That day, all of my gear was DIR.
I suggest you think about this stmt again. Giant leg knives are not dir.

The Pirate :pirate:

[SeaJay]

*jealous* Have fun... :D

[SeaJay]

The Pirate once bubbled...

I suggest you think about this stmt again. Giant leg knives are not dir.

The Pirate :pirate:

Really? I must have missed that page, that book, or that video. Can you tell me where to find that information?

Where are you guys getting this stuff? It's like it's being made up by people as they go along. They take a basic concept like, "Most divers don't need an ungainly leg knife" and then run with it. From then on, leg knives are "not DIR."

That's just not what's being taught here by those who really ARE DIR.

[Duncan Price]

Hoppy once bubbled...
Seriously though, I have read extensively about the WKPP teams explorations and while they are awesome I wonder how many of these people have been cave diving over here ?


As far as I know - none - although there are UK based cave divers who have been through the whole GUE syllabus.

Generally speaking, the standard backmount DIR rig is only suitable for very few UK sites as the caves are too small. In continental caves the situation is different and you will find DIR teams operating with considerable effectiveness (e.g. the .EKPP (http://www.ekpp.de) at the Doux de Coly).

Furthermore, the visibility in UK sites is usually abysmal. This, combined with restricted access prefers solo diving rather than teams.

Finally, there are not many cave diving sites in the UK that are particularly deep which really require the use of helium containing mixtures or advanced decompression procedures.

That is not to say that teamwork, good gear (minimalism, streamlining) etc. are not essential to UK cave diving. Forgetting the 20% about specific equipment the rest of DIR is equally applicable to the UK. Differences of opinion arise through misunderstanding arising from the backgrounds' of the proponents. The UK cave diving population is drawn from the ranks of cavers (cave diving in the UK is like caving underwater) whereas the situation is generally reversed in Florida. Forgetting the petty bickering about (for example) whether to wear helmets, I feel that both sides have a great deal to learn from one another.

There are a number of DIR divers operating in the UK in the context of open water diving in the sea on deep wrecks. I believe that DIR-F courses will soon be offered in the UK now that GUE has obtained HSE approval.

Duncan

PS. Regarding computers - there are a lot of up/down profiles in UK sumps which are very difficult to plan for using pre-cut tables. When you are conducting original exploration it is impractical to plan for every eventuality and most divers will wear more than one computer and go with the most conservative.

PPS. Giant leg knives are not CDG either - everything goes on your arms where you can reach them - not even in a pouch on your belt.

[AquaTec]

JeffAustin once bubbled...
The computer is fine, until it locks up because it doesn't agree with your deco plans. That's when they let you down. Put it in gauge mode, plan your dives, folllow your plan.

Buy a better computer, and like your regulator have a redundent one

[Hoppy]

for an informative post !

I am in total awe of anyone who will go diving in caves over here.

You guys are barking mad, in the nicest possible way.

I remember a few years ago watching a prog on tv about two guys working both ends of a system in Yorkshire. They got to touch hands through a tiny gap, which I believe was called Dead mans handshke thereafter, as one of the guys came out of the system on so little air he should have been dead.

Myth or fact I wonder ?

Still an awesome programme.

Best wishes for continued safety and success.

Hoppy

[Duncan Price]

Hoppy once bubbled...
I remember a few years ago watching a prog on tv about two guys working both ends of a system in Yorkshire. They got to touch hands through a tiny gap, which I believe was called Dead mans handshke thereafter, as one of the guys came out of the system on so little air he should have been dead.

Myth or fact I wonder ?


I went there a couple of weeks ago - in fact we reversed the dive shown on the TV (1.9 km) - took nearly two hours in 2 m vis. There are lots of scratches on the wall in this area left by divers squeezing through this section. Over to one side is a piece of wire that was used to hook out a dive light lost by the diver during the incident that gave the place its name.

A comprehensive description of this "incident" can be found in the 1991 edition of "The Darkness Beckons" by Martyn Farr.

The place has a lot of history to it.

Duncan

[mynitrox2]

What is DIR

[Spectre]

What is DIR
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=44823

[MikeFerrara]

What ever happened to Divesherpa anyway?

[boomx5]

What ever happened to Divesherpa anyway?

Good question Mike...I was thinking the same thing.

[MaxBottomtime]

Really? I must have missed that page, that book, or that video. Can you tell me where to find that information?

Where are you guys getting this stuff? It's like it's being made up by people as they go along. They take a basic concept like, "Most divers don't need an ungainly leg knife" and then run with it. From then on, leg knives are "not DIR."

That's just not what's being taught here by those who really ARE DIR.
http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Gear/newgeorge.html

[simbrooks]

What ever happened to Divesherpa anyway?
Last on 11/7/04, last post 8/1/04, so obviously he is still around from time to time, just not really recently.

[Desa]

If you would have only waited 2 more weeks, this thread would have been 2 years old. :)

[novadiver]

READ CAREFULLY

This is not an attempt to bash DIR or inspire anyone to bash DIR. As I am DIR from time to time (when mandated by a particular dive buddy) and personal preference (most of the time), I want to ask this general question:

What diving situations would DIR not work?

I'll go first. Hopefully the list won't be too long.

1. no mount cave diving

Remember to please keep this in context and not get into a pissing match over DIR. If you believe that DIR will work for every diving environment, then please ignore this thread.

Also, know that to understand a system, you first must understand it weakest links

:weak:
two types of diving that DIR doesn't work with are:
1 solo diving
2 smart bombing wrecks ( going feet wet from a moving boat, in a shipping lane)

[Divesherpa]

Wow, looks like this thread got resurrected. Mike, how's life without a dive shop?

I'm still up to the same old stuff. Trying to get into the nest whenever I can.

I don't dive caves 5 days a week any more so I don't have as much to say. I'm looking forward to more recreational diving with some of the South Florida group. Mostly, I'm trying to stay out of the DIR/non-DIR debates. I'm either following someone's line or they are following mine :eyebrow: , however they may be diving.

Cheers and don't take this **** too seriously,
Jamie

[MikeFerrara]

Wow, looks like this thread got resurrected. Mike, how's life without a dive shop?

GREAT!


I'm still up to the same old stuff. Trying to get into the nest whenever I can.

I don't dive caves 5 days a week any more so I don't have as much to say. I'm looking forward to more recreational diving with some of the South Florida group. Mostly, I'm trying to stay out of the DIR/non-DIR debates. I'm either following someone's line or they are following mine :eyebrow: , however they may be diving.

Cheers and don't take this **** too seriously,
Jamie

Sounds good.