Drager RB

[Hodge Podge]

I found out today that Aqua Lung will no longer support Drager units. They will fill existing back orders but will not be placing anymore orders to Drager.

If anyone has other sources for parts, let me know.

[scubanimal]

I have heard this for several years, and I sold my units when I first heard it. Later to find out this has been a yearly thing for some time. Maybe its finally true, but I would suggest really looking into it.
As far as parts, there are two sites I used Online Shop | W+S Water Safety Europe GmbH | Seit 1999 (http://www.danshop.com/) and Tec Equipment für Nitrox, Rebreather Höhlen Tauchen (http://www.tecme.de/frame_eq1.htm)

I regret selling my dolphin it is a great system that I would still be using for some dives.

[Scubastud16]

I've been told it is official for this year, because they are working on their own SCR.

Just what I heard. Part of the reason I didn't get involved.

[caveseeker7]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any good experiences with Aqualung and Dräger service?

From their DEMA 05 booth to Dräger owners in SoCal to the guy who owns the local LDS here in Germany as well as a Dolphin, I have yet to hear even one person who claims good Dräger customer service from Aqualung. :shakehead:

Over the last few years it's gone from bad to worse. I've referred dozends of people to TecMe and W+S WaterSafety (their website is in German, but lots of pics as well as all the diagrams of parts, and they speak English quite well), both are Dräger OEM parts dealers, both have supported Dräger divers around the world for years.

As long as they can get parts there's no worry for Dräger owners.;)

[scubanimal]

Stefan,
Actually, the service I had was fine. I do need to caveat that though. I know the local Aqualung rep very well so that might have influenced it. But as far as getting parts and getting good service the service department was really good, even called and told me I did not need things and saved me a 100 bucks. However, that was almost 2 years ago, I have not had any dealings with Draeger since. I have not seen the rep in a while, if I do I'll ask about the future support and post it.

[scubanimal]

[QUOTE=Scubastud16;3251420]I've been told it is official for this year, because they are working on their own SCR.QUOTE]

That would nice, the more big manufacturers that get into the RB market the better. A few of us are speculating that in 5 years very few if any of the current manufacturers will be in business because the big boys will take over. That will probably drive the price down, but TBD if progress will get faster or slower.

[Scubastud16]

I would like to see some larger companies get into SCR and CCR production. I like the what Hollis has done with the Prism 2. Maybe some more will come out as well.

I've heard great things about TecMe. I just don't like the though of HAVING to get stuff from over seas.

Danny

[caveseeker7]

Well seeing that Dräger is in Germany, no matter where you get parts, they'll always be from overseas. ;) But I know what you mean, it's the same in any EU country for most units that don't have CE certification. For my Jetsam unit for example I have to order spares etc. from Canada. No problem with the parts, but customs can be a pita.

What has Hollis done with PRISM 2? Other than bought rights to manufacture and distribute?
The unit shown at DEMA just had some Hollis bits bolted on, 1st stages, BCD, that sort of thing. An inflator integrated 2nd stage for bailout which IMHO sucks, a BOV is a much safer and convenient solution. To top it off, the SMI DSV had been replaced, one of the better ones, and 100% neutral uw due to the brass rings. None of that floating over your head stuff, it stays where you leave it.

Everything else is just in the planning stages, including the mirroring/change of flow direction.

[caveseeker7]

Personally I think there are limits as far as big companies buying out the small RB manufacturers. Most RBs are made from largely machined parts, which is expensive to produce if you want to do it high volume. Take the Meg for example, except for the T-pieces everything is machined. The PRISM is the one notable exception, with the entire head assembly, mounting board, cowling, elbows, connectors etc all being molded. Mind you, not high volume injection molding, but at least molded. The DSV and a few other bits are machined, and that's it. Same with the Sport Kiss, BOV is machined (and the limiting production factor), whereas the Classic Kiss is almost entirely machined. Ouroboros, almost entirely made from machined parts.

Each of them manage around 100 to 150 units annually, some not even that. Unless you can mass produce the unit and sell them in considerable higher numbers to offset the expense of injection molds I doubt too many manufacturers will be interested. Aside from any liability considerations.

Scubapro, Aqualung and Mares are the "big three" in the dive biz. Aqualung just dumped Dräger, and Mares bailed on OMG (Azimuth) before it ever hit the civilian market. Don't think Scubapro ever tried.

Oceanic is a pretty big kahuna, the Oceanic/Aeris/Pelagian/Hollis/ProA Taiwan group has about 550 employees. Once they're setup for high volume production I can see that PRISM thing taking off. At least if they make the needed changes to update the unit with some new features (BOV as mentioned, maybe integrated deco and offboard gas management as options) and stronger materials. The PRISM has a pretty bad rep in that respect.

AP is the 8000 lbs gorilla in the CCR biz right now, and doing well. They build a lot of rigs and sell them as fast as they can ship them.

Hasn't made the units less expensive. Since I've known the Inspo it went from $5800 to $6200 to whatever they cost now, with Vision units costing around $10000. The Optima, highly touted to be the first $5000 CCR costs about the same fully loaded. Meg? $8500 +, the new Hammerhead over $10000. Even the new Cis-Lunar, an entirely recreational unit that doesn't allow for deep dives, doesn't offer a secondary or manual gas addition, much less offboard gas management or He capability is still supposed to cost $6200 ... not much to write home about.

If a company makes the considerable investment into expensive molds, spends a lot of money on engineering, and has to worry about liability claims in case something goes wrong, they're not gonna start lowering prices. Why would they, as long as we're fool enough to pay the high ones. :mooner:

[Scubastud16]

I only know a little bit about RB's, but here's my shot.

I agree on the BOV...I like that system much better than an integrated inflator. Flip the switch and go right to OC, as opposed to closing the mouthpiece, then getting over on the inflator.

I like the mirroring of the flow direction as well.

What I really like is that Hollis/Oceanic is getting their name on it. That means big dealer support (I love Oceanic stuff), easy parts to get, and the fact that my LDS can bring them in, get parts for them, etc.

Danny

[caveseeker7]

Well, honestly hope you're correct about the support issue, it's immensely important.
You've seen it come up in this thread with regards to Aqualung.

The small manufacturers, for most part, have rather good support.
Jetsam (Sport & Classic Kiss) and ISC (Megalodon and COPIS Meg) have excellent reputations in that respect. Same with C2R (Ouroboros).

Steam Machines for most part, too, there have been some problems with fixing/replacing the analog secondaries. The gauge itself is the single most expensive part of the unit, and turning it into a secondary is labor intensive. Other parts have not be a problem, nor are they damaged as easily.

The two higher volume, molded rigs, the AP (Inspiration and Evolution) and DiveRite (Optima) have done quite well in regards to customer service overall. If they had problems supplying spares or servicing rigs it certainly wasn't due to lack of trying.

Dräger is a bit different, the company is huge, the diving division just a very small part of it. And most of that is military gear, the recreational division is tiny ... it just doesn't matter to them if they build 50 Dolphins or 500. Not if they can sell LAR Vs at $8500 a pop to militaries around the world that treat them as throw away items. Between the military gear and the firefighting/safety gear they produce I'm reasonably sure they got a nice boost after 9/11 and all the homeland security funding, why bother with Dolphins and Rays?

As I said, I could see a PRISM taking off with Hollis behind it. They are easily large enough to support the unit's production, distribution, promotion and advertising. And I believe they're serious about rebreathers.

They wanted to get one to the market in the mid-nineties, the Oceanic Phibian. Much of the engineering was done by Stuart Clough and Carmellan Research (the company that modified MK series CCRs used by Rob Palmer for the Blue Hole Expedition). Pete Ready was on the Carmellan team too. Long story short, Clough and Hollis went separate ways, and Clough was awarded the right to the CCR stuff, which lead to the Undersea Technologies UT240. Hollis was barred from building CCRs until 1999.

Love the irony of it, actually, the 'S' in PRISM stands for Stuart (with PR being Peter Ready and IM Iain Middlebrook), the unit's loop is excellent, details well thought out, the electronics beautifully simple and transparent, the whole well tested. Hollis gets a great little rebreather and the last laugh. :rofl3:

[Scubastud16]

CS7;

Thanks for the little write up. That part about Hollis is pretty humorous. I'm looking to do CCR when I graduate from school, so I'm doing as much research as I can over the next 2 years or so to try and decide what rig I'll opt to buy/train on. The Prism 2, Optima (both eCCR), KISS, and Copis Meg (both mCCR) are looking pretty good at the minute.

Thanks for imparting your wisdom!

Danny