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offthewall1
December 24th, 2007, 01:03 AM
Lets face it... I've been diving for more than a decade now and just recently took the crazy plunge and opened a dive shop. In more than a decade and more than 1000 dives I have tried a few regulators.

My very first regulator... a gift from my wife was the Scubapro MK2 - R190 combination. I dove that for almost 6 years before I tried something else. Then in quick succession I tried something from Mares (it free flowed out of the box), then the Atomic B1 (it was like sucking air through a straw in the inverted position), the Apeks ATX50 (a quality regulator) and then back to Scubapro with the MK20 - G250, the MK16 S550, the MK25 -G250HP, and finally the MK11 S555.

In all this time I preached that I would dive nothing other than Scubapro after having tried the Mares, Atomic and Apeks. My favorite regulator from Scubapro is the MK16 S550 with the MK25 - G250HP being a close runner up.

Now for the Surprise... I have a new favorite... and one I never thought I'd have. Now don't get me wrong - I still own my Scubapro's and still love them... but there is a surprising alternative that competes readily...

The Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska 1st and 2nd stage regulators. Both my partner and I have tried these things and we're believers. The fact that both Scubapro and Cress-sub are made in Italy should not go un-noticed. The comparisons should not stop there. Both are quality regulators.

What is interesting is that Cressi-sub regulators have never really caught on in the USA... but they do very well in Europe and in Africa. So America, it's time to wake up to a less expensive high quality alternative regulator. The best part... they can be had for much less than their Scubapro counterparts.

If I were recommending a regulator today... I'd tell you to buy one of the following... in no particular order:

Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska
Scubapro MK25/G250HP
Scubapro MK16/S550
Scuabpro MK20/G250

While some will swear by Apeks regulators (and I did like mine well enough,) I can not find it in me to put them up to the Italian standards. Not knocking them at all... just my personal preferences.

If you're in Baltimore... take our Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska challenge. We go to the quarry and swap regulators with you. You tell us what you think.

Jimmer
December 24th, 2007, 01:23 AM
I must agree that I the Ellipse Alaska breathes very nicely, but I'm somewhat leary of it after my cousin and dive buddy had a massive freeflow at 120 in Lake Erie last summer with me. Have you had any issues with it with freeflow at all?

Specmac
December 24th, 2007, 11:59 AM
I find it amusing that you didn't like Atomic, but love Scuba Pro. These are very similar designs and I've found they breath pretty much the same. In fact the Atomic engineers used to work for Scuba Pro and all their designs are based on the work these two engineers did while employed at Scuba Pro.

I own two Atomic regs (Z2 & ST1), and two Mares(V32 Metal & Abyss) and have dived several different Scuba Pro regulators. I prefer the Atomic mostly for ergonomic reasons as they all breath well. A machine may able to tell the difference but I can't. The Mares regs seem a bit finicky as a I frequently have to have them tweaked and adjusted. The Atomics are dead reliable and just work between service intervals without any problems.

offthewall1
December 24th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Myself and my friends tested the Atomics (when we worked for a shop that sold them.) We took our Scubapro regulators and the Atomics to the bottom of the 10ft deep pool, laid on our backs and attempted to breathe. Before supporting Atomics, I suggest you conduct this or a similar test. I know you'll see the difference.

In addition, the second stages of the Atomics on more than one occassion fell apart while in use in the pool. The knobs on the first stages are a much cheaper grade plastic than the Scubapro and on more than one occassion the knobs broke off.

The Atomic is probably OK for a Carribean Diver... but don't put it into a commercial or professional grade application - it is unlikely to survive.





I find it amusing that you didn't like Atomic, but love Scuba Pro. These are very similar designs and I've found they breath pretty much the same. In fact the Atomic engineers used to work for Scuba Pro and all their designs are based on the work these two engineers did while employed at Scuba Pro.

I own two Atomic regs (Z2 & ST1), and two Mares(V32 Metal & Abyss) and have dived several different Scuba Pro regulators. I prefer the Atomic mostly for ergonomic reasons as they all breath well. A machine may able to tell the difference but I can't. The Mares regs seem a bit finicky as a I frequently have to have them tweaked and adjusted. The Atomics are dead reliable and just work between service intervals without any problems.

offthewall1
December 24th, 2007, 02:08 PM
We have been told by our Cressi-sub representative that the Ellipse Alaska is a better breather than the Scubapro in depths to 100 ft... and we agree with that assessment. That same rep told us that the Scubapro would hold up better (less chance of free-flow) when diving deeper than 100 ft. We plan on diving the Alaska to 100+ feet in 36 degree water ourselves. Our shallow water testing indicates everything our rep told us was true... and now we're looking forward to pushing it beyond 100 ft.

Thanks for the input. There are also flow adjustments that can be made to the regulator and perhaps your cousin and his dive buddy simply needed a flow adjustment. One thing we have discovered is that new Cressi-sub regulators tend to flow much too easily out of the box and need to be tuned down.


I must agree that I the Ellipse Alaska breathes very nicely, but I'm somewhat leary of it after my cousin and dive buddy had a massive freeflow at 120 in Lake Erie last summer with me. Have you had any issues with it with freeflow at all?

evil_xander
December 24th, 2007, 02:44 PM
The Atomic is probably OK for a Carribean Diver... but don't put it into a commercial or professional grade application - it is unlikely to survive.

FYI, over here, in Europe, Cressi has the same reputation you mentioned above, cheap for rentals and weekend divers and that's about it. Not an established name for serious diving, however you may define it.

I believe they are over any birth pains as they are present with their regulators for quite some time now, but still have to earn their ground in the reg market.

I'd love to hear feedback from European LDS owners/shop keepers present on SB on this...

Specmac
December 24th, 2007, 05:00 PM
Yep tested them all the way you described. Actually The test I do is a little past full inverted. By that I mean head down and feet up but a little over rotated so that your angled slightly so you can see the surface more than your feet. I found that most regs are challenged in this position (some more than others). By challenged I mean enough so that I can feel a difference in the way they breath. For example my first reg a Mares MR11 would give you almost no air in this position. I've tested every reg I've ever dove like this and the Atomics breathed as well as any I've seen in this position.

I've asked almost every reg tech and many accomplished technical divers why regs breath heaver in this position and have never gotten a good technical answer. Bob Outlaw at Blue Dolphin is one of the most accomplished and knowledgeable divers I know and a former navy seals instructor. Bob told me it wasn't the reg but rather a factor of the forces of water pressure on the body. Bob knows a lot more about equipment and diving than I do, but this still doesn't explain why some regs perform different than others in an inverted position.

Also on a trip to Bonaire two weeks ago. Scuba Pro had no less than 3 reg failures in our group of 20. All with cheap plastic parts breaking while being banged around on rough shore entry/exits.

Lots of other minor issues with sand and grit in the Scuba Pros.

There were less of us Atomic divers than Scuba Pro so the failure numbers may just be a product of the math, but none of the 5 divers with Atomic regs had any issues what so ever.

I'm not knocking Scuba Pro, I recommend them as well. Just find your comments about Atomic to be BS based on my own knowledge and experience.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree! ;-)

daniel f aleman
December 24th, 2007, 05:26 PM
All regulators have issues, that's why you choose the right equipment for the job at hand.

The Scubapro MK17-G250V is the best regulator that I have ever used (35 years of diving and 24 of those technical). The Atomic M-1 is second; Mares Abyss, third; and the Beuchat VX10, fourth.

couv
December 24th, 2007, 05:37 PM
SNIP... just recently took the crazy plunge and opened a dive shop. ....... I have a new favorite...

The Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska 1st and 2nd stage regulators. Both my partner and I have tried these things and we're believers.

....What is interesting is that Cressi-sub regulators ....America, it's time to wake up to a less expensive high quality alternative regulator. The best part... they can be had for much less than their Scubapro counterparts.....

If I were recommending a regulator today... I'd tell you to buy one of the following... in no particular order:

Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska
Scubapro MK25/G250HP
Scubapro MK16/S550
Scuabpro MK20/G250

While some will swear by Apeks regulators (and I did like mine well enough,) I can not find it in me to put them up to the Italian standards. Not knocking them at all... just my personal preferences.

If you're in Baltimore... take our Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska challenge. We go to the quarry and swap regulators with you. You tell us what you think.


:confused: I am trying to figure out what make of regulator your shop sells?

couv

NetDoc
December 24th, 2007, 06:39 PM
It still amazes me when I read those "it's junk" diatribes about modern scuba equipment. The consumer has to determine if you sell the regs because you find them to be the best, or if they are the best merely because you sell them! Maybe the subconscious logic is> Premise #1: I don't sell crap! Premise #2: I don't sell Atomics Concluding: Ergo, Atomic must be crap!

No, I don't think this is a conscious decision for most shop owners but the attitude seems to be prevalent among many of them. It would be better to just extol the virtues of what you DO sell rather than dissing what you don't.

In the past, the shop was in the driver's seat when it came to gear selection. The consumer would come in and listen to the Dive Sage pontificate on which gear was righteous and which should be avoided as it was "junk". Now, the consumer need only google the internet or just come to ScubaBoard to find a veritable TON of peer reviewed gear ranging from the lowly spring strap to any rebreather you may want to consider. You simply DON'T have to rely on someone who's primary motivation is selling enough so they can afford baby's new pair of shoes. The best is that there are many, many people here diving the gear YOU are considering. If there is a problem, you can be SURE that it will be discussed here ad nauseum. To be sure, this is the first negative comment I have ever read about Atomic Regulators (other than price) on :sblogo: That says a LOT. Their first stage piston design is nigh to bullet proof and the design of their HP seats are genius. No, they are not an advertiser here, and I don't even dive their regs. But I have used them and have found them incredibly breathable.

That being said, the OP's offer to allow them to try the reg at a local dive spot is a GREAT idea. I would even let them do a whole dive or two if you really want to make a statement. One or two rental regs and you probably have it covered.

Bob
December 24th, 2007, 07:15 PM
I own five sets of regulators, a Mares MR 12, V 16, SP MK 10, MK 25, and a Zeagle Flathead IV. The MK 25 and Flathead are the best breathers, all are reliable and no failures from any of them. :palmtree: Bob

VooDooGasMan
December 24th, 2007, 07:56 PM
Jimmer your in fresh cold water, My wifes g250hp did same thing on lake superior wreck in minnesota two days before 9/11, I was diving my b1 atomic it didnt freeze and thats what happens in your diving enviorment. I've delt with that problem alot in the great lakes. to date the DA Aquamaster or equivaliant is best for ice diving, but of course new style regs are better at depth.
Seems like you would be diving enviormentaly sealed first stages. That helps the problem. We turned the tank back on at 40-50' freeflow thawed and stopped went down to 90' and finished the dive.
Now thats points for my b1, Beuchat vs4 is my favorite beuchat its older, MK17 is a favorite older scubapro also, I have alot of other brands and there all ok.

My honest opion is MK25 AF/S600 best breather at 175' and beyond.

Jimmer I have not dove them in fresh cold water, So I cant be certain it wont freeze and free-flow. Never a problem in saltwater at extreme depth.

Atomic machines there own regs, this is the first I've heard, But after a couple hundred dives mine did come loose also, Its a 99 possibe there made cheaper now.

NC myerssl
December 24th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Let me take a shot at explaining the harder breathing upside down.

This has to do with the cracking resistance on the 2nd stage. Usually, a 2nd stage will start to freeflow when there is a slight pressure difference. For example when you put your 2nd stage in a sink of water diaghram first (mouthpiece is still out of the water), the 2nd stage should start leaking air when it is .5 - 1.5 inches in the water. The reason behind this is that there is pressure from the water pushing on the diaghram which opens the lever for air to be released. When you are breathing face down, your 2nd stage is filled with air and the water pressure is pushing upwards into the diaghram/lever which makes it easier to breath.

Upside down, you have more air pressure in the 2nd stage than you would in a face down position, (even though it is only a couple of inches), and less water pressure pushing on the reg which in turn makes the reg harder to draw on.

An example of this on the surface is when you experience a freeflow on your 2nd stage, by tilting it down (mouthpiece first) you change the pressure slightly and are able to stop the freeflow.

So long story short; the less cracking resistance of the regulator, the easier it is to breath upside down.

Jimmer
December 24th, 2007, 08:19 PM
Jimmer your in fresh cold water, My wifes g250hp did same thing on lake superior wreck in minnesota two days before 9/11, I was diving my b1 atomic it didnt freeze and thats what happens in your diving enviorment. I've delt with that problem alot in the great lakes. to date the DA Aquamaster or equivaliant is best for ice diving, but of course new style regs are better at depth.
Seems like you would be diving enviormentaly sealed first stages. That helps the problem. We turned the tank back on at 40-50' freeflow thawed and stopped went down to 90' and finished the dive.
Now thats points for my b1, Beuchat vs4 is my favorite beuchat its older, MK17 is a favorite older scubapro also, I have alot of other brands and there all ok.

My honest opion is MK25 AF/S600 best breather at 175' and beyond.

Jimmer I have not dove them in fresh cold water, So I cant be certain it wont freeze and free-flow. Never a problem in saltwater at extreme depth.

Atomic machines there own regs, this is the first I've heard, But after a couple hundred dives mine did come loose also, Its a 99 possibe there made cheaper now.

The Cressi that free flowed on us was a sealed first stage, but you're right anyone with half a brain around here dives sealed regs for deep cold water. I dive Zeagles and have never had anything but perfect solid performance in deep water, cold water, under ice etc. Apek's are also very popular around here.

stablgr
December 25th, 2007, 01:38 AM
Apeks.... British Engineering.... what more can I say ????

Specmac
December 25th, 2007, 02:30 AM
Let me take a shot at explaining the harder breathing upside down.

This has to do with the cracking resistance on the 2nd stage.

This makes sense and also means that a reg that is hard breathing upside down could be tuned/improved by decreasing the cracking pressure. I'm sure however at the expense that it would be more likely to free flow. I'll have to dig my old MR11 out of storage and do a little experimenting.

KOMPRESSOR
December 25th, 2007, 04:53 AM
FYI, over here, in Europe, Cressi has the same reputation you mentioned above, cheap for rentals and weekend divers and that's about it. Not an established name for serious diving, however you may define it.

I believe they are over any birth pains as they are present with their regulators for quite some time now, but still have to earn their ground in the reg market.

I'd love to hear feedback from European LDS owners/shop keepers present on SB on this...


I second your opinion regarding Cressi's reputation in Europe. I received a set of "high end" Cressi regs for review before I decided on Oceanic instead. I already sold Apeks and Poseidon* at the time, but the Cressi didn't fit in.I want to see diver adjustments on any 2. stage that's supposed to be a brand's top model. No such thing on the Cressi. And yes, they do not have a reputation for being great regs either. Not bad ones, but you can get better deals for the same money. Our local diving is cold freshwater. And I mean COLD...

*Poseidon has no easy adjustments either, but it's out of my store now anyways due to a new distributor I don't fancy...

NetDoc
December 25th, 2007, 10:40 AM
Apeks.... British Engineering.... what more can I say ????Is this along the line of why the Brits drink warm beer? Their fridges (Made by Lucas) don't work???

Luis H
December 25th, 2007, 10:58 AM
Apeks.... British Engineering.... what more can I say ????

Lucas…the father of darkness…British engineering…what else would you like me to say? :rolleyes:

KOMPRESSOR
December 25th, 2007, 12:01 PM
Lucas…the father of darkness…British engineering…what else would you like me to say? :rolleyes:

I once drove a Triumph motorbike on a rainy day... :eyebrow:

squidster
December 26th, 2007, 06:42 PM
Scuba pro has proven itself through the years to be top knotch in all areas The MK 17
With the new G250 Vintage is a top cold water reg. Choice.
I have MK 11 / r395 a good little reg for the $$

But The MK 17 will most likely be my next reg unless Scuba Pro Out Does It with something better>

CODMAN
December 27th, 2007, 09:50 AM
I agree 100% on this! :coffee: Posts like this have very little credibility to my eyes.

Sorry, just adding my 0.02$:coffee:


It still amazes me when I read those "it's junk" diatribes about modern scuba equipment. The consumer has to determine if you sell the regs because you find them to be the best, or if they are the best merely because you sell them! Maybe the subconscious logic is> Premise #1: I don't sell crap! Premise #2: I don't sell Atomics Concluding: Ergo, Atomic must be crap!

No, I don't think this is a conscious decision for most shop owners but the attitude seems to be prevalent among many of them. It would be better to just extol the virtues of what you DO sell rather than dissing what you don't.

In the past, the shop was in the driver's seat when it came to gear selection. The consumer would come in and listen to the Dive Sage pontificate on which gear was righteous and which should be avoided as it was "junk". Now, the consumer need only google the internet or just come to ScubaBoard to find a veritable TON of peer reviewed gear ranging from the lowly spring strap to any rebreather you may want to consider. You simply DON'T have to rely on someone who's primary motivation is selling enough so they can afford baby's new pair of shoes. The best is that there are many, many people here diving the gear YOU are considering. If there is a problem, you can be SURE that it will be discussed here ad nauseum. To be sure, this is the first negative comment I have ever read about Atomic Regulators (other than price) on :sblogo: That says a LOT. Their first stage piston design is nigh to bullet proof and the design of their HP seats are genius. No, they are not an advertiser here, and I don't even dive their regs. But I have used them and have found them incredibly breathable.

That being said, the OP's offer to allow them to try the reg at a local dive spot is a GREAT idea. I would even let them do a whole dive or two if you really want to make a statement. One or two rental regs and you probably have it covered.

offthewall1
December 28th, 2007, 04:48 PM
Well credibility issues aside... those who know me... know where I stand and why I stand there. In an open forum opinions are well... opinions.

With that said, someone asked which regulator brands I sell... probably figuring that I was espousing the ones I sell while degrading the ones I dont. That is far from the truth.

While I do sell Cressi-sub, I do not sell Scubapro. I also sell Dive Rite and made no mention of those at all. I also mentioned Apeks - which again I do not sell. So for the record, I liked 2 brands of regulators I do not sell, one brand I do sell and never mentioned the other that I sell.

My postings are made for the benefit of divers. This is how we operate. I only talk about equipment I have personally owned or used - never something I have not personally used or owned. FEW dive shop owners can say the same.

Many (not all) shop owners bad mouth other brands regardless of their quality. I bad mouth brands which have consistently through personal experience earned their reputation. In all, it is a disappointment to me that some ex-Scubapro employees couldn't produce something better than the Atomic they put out. To me Atomic is a disappointment - as it is to many I know.

With that said, most other brands put out some good regulators. I prefer and recommend the ones I mentioned. It can also be said that Mares, Poseidon, Apollo, Oceanic and more have some fine regulator products... all perfectly good if used within certain parameters.

My comments about the Cressi-sub and Scubapro are to the effect that they have been proven - the Scubapro especially - to be diveable virtually anywhere and in any conditions.

Every brand is apt to have a free-flow here or there, parts breakage when dropped or banged around etc... but Scubapro (again, which I do NOT sell) has outperformed them all. Less free flows, less breakage etc... over the years

The original post was intended to introduce Cressi-sub as a viable less expensive alternative. Not all Cressi-subs have been tested by us - but the Ellipse Alaska (as stated) has been and clearly breathes better than most regulators on the market. It has not been tested by us outside of recreational limits... but once this occurs... we will revisit our opinion with the usual honesty and integrity you get from real world testing.

We don't accept an advertising dollar and we ONLY SELL products we use ourselves. In other words, it's not good enough for our clients unless it's good enough for us.

I know other local shop dealers that push one brand and dive another - that doesn't happen here. I dive both Cressi-sub and Scubapro...

Happy New Year - and Happy Diving to all...

runway1
December 28th, 2007, 10:06 PM
Apeks.... British Engineering.... what more can I say ????

Hope this was being sarchastic. I'm a pro-Brit fellow but honestly, I certainly wouldn't tout their engineering prowess

couv
December 28th, 2007, 10:29 PM
.... Just a little snip here and there ....




Well credibility issues aside...

someone asked which regulator brands I sell... I do sell Cressi-sub.....

My postings are made for the benefit of divers. This is how we operate.....

Many (not all) shop owners bad mouth other brands regardless of their quality. I bad mouth brands which have consistently through personal experience earned their reputation. ... To me Atomic is a disappointment...

The original post was intended to introduce Cressi-sub as a viable less expensive alternative. ... It has not been tested by us outside of recreational limits... but once this occurs... we will revisit our opinion with the usual honesty and integrity you get from real world testing....



Thanks for clearing that up.

couv

stablgr
December 29th, 2007, 12:14 AM
Ok, so Lucas are not a shining example of British Engineering. But you have to admit that for such a curious little island they have come up with one or two good ideas over the years.....

pneumatic tyres
television
telephone
tarmacadam
penecillin

although thinking about it most of those were invented by Scots, and Lucas is (was) English. Ahh now I see a trend!

NetDoc
December 29th, 2007, 12:36 AM
But you have to admit that for such a curious little island they have come up with one or two good ideas over the years...They were doing good with the colonies until they thought up that Tea Tax.

stablgr
December 29th, 2007, 12:42 AM
Yeah, those English really screwed up alot of countries over the years

KOMPRESSOR
December 29th, 2007, 03:45 AM
Yeah, those English really screwed up alot of countries over the years

Someone else is still doing that job they say... ;)

couv
December 29th, 2007, 11:36 AM
Yeah, those English really screwed up alot of countries over the years

Shhhh...the wife's a Limey.

David P
December 29th, 2007, 11:51 AM
Ok, so Lucas are not a shining example of British Engineering. But you have to admit that for such a curious little island they have come up with one or two good ideas over the years.....

pneumatic tyres
television
telephone
tarmacadam
penecillin

although thinking about it most of those were invented by Scots, and Lucas is (was) English. Ahh now I see a trend!

Marshall amps
Vox amps
Altoids mints

earl grey tea?

ok Im blank now

BMCG
December 29th, 2007, 01:50 PM
The Lucas/Triumph examples - whilst true of the 70's - don't do justice to current British engineering, herewith but 2 examples

1. Formula 1 Racing - dominated by Brits and British engineering: a sport that represents the leading edge intersection of computational fluid dynamics and real time solid dynamics (aka chassis engineering).

2. Thrust SSC - land speed world record holder, first vehicle to go faster than speed of sound on land.

3. WWW - founder Tim Berner's Lee was a British computer scientist at CERN.

And as an Aussie I love seeing the Poms get there comeuppance...but i also prefer a factual fight

couv
December 29th, 2007, 04:55 PM
Bond, James Bond.

runway1
December 31st, 2007, 11:42 AM
The Lucas/Triumph examples - whilst true of the 70's - don't do justice to current British engineering, herewith but 2 examples

1. Formula 1 Racing - dominated by Brits and British engineering: a sport that represents the leading edge intersection of computational fluid dynamics and real time solid dynamics (aka chassis engineering).

2. Thrust SSC - land speed world record holder, first vehicle to go faster than speed of sound on land.

3. WWW - founder Tim Berner's Lee was a British computer scientist at CERN.

And as an Aussie I love seeing the Poms get there comeuppance...but i also prefer a factual fight

F1 racing? Ever heard of that little group....Ferrari? Been kicking brit butt for 50 years on every track in Europe. Sure Jean Todt (Frenchman, God forbid) is the President, but all the engineers, engineering tunnel work and fabrication is in Italy. Brits can't touch 'em.

tridacna
December 31st, 2007, 12:03 PM
F1 racing? Ever heard of that little group....Ferrari? Been kicking brit butt for 50 years on every track in Europe. Sure Jean Todt (Frenchman, God forbid) is the President, but all the engineers, engineering tunnel work and fabrication is in Italy. Brits can't touch 'em.

:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

The poms gave us Monty Python. Nuff said. Who cares about the rest? :monkeydan

BMCG
December 31st, 2007, 06:53 PM
Ahh yes Ferrari - might I point out that during their halcyon years (no pun) 2000-2004 with Schumi, it was the engineering team Schumi brought with him from Benetton in 1997 that led the turn around...and it took them nigh on 3 yrs to resurrect Ferrari.

Otherwise there was a slight drought from 1979 (Jody Schekter) to 2000...when Schumi won for the Scuderia again...during this 21 year drought its fair to say that British teams - Mclaren with 9 [1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1998, 1999], and Williams with 7 [1980, 1982, 1987, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997] rather dominated the driver's championships.


For further on the British influence at Ferrari, c.f.:

Tech Director Ross Brawn - English....Ross Brawn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Brawn)
Chief Designer Rory Byrne - South African who relocated to England in 1972...Rory Byrne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_Byrne)


Other prominent British/British-developed tech directors/designers of note in F1:

Patrick Head, Adrian Newey,John Barnard, Gordon Murray, Neil Oatley, Harvey Postlethwaite, Mike Gascoyne, Pat Symonds....

Point made me thinks.

couv
December 31st, 2007, 07:22 PM
OK, I think we have answered the OP's question.....next! :-)

Geoff_H
December 31st, 2007, 10:54 PM
Hope this was being sarchastic. I'm a pro-Brit fellow but honestly, I certainly wouldn't tout their engineering prowess

Ouch.

I don't think you would be getting much diving done without getting bent (Haldane), nor flying to many diving places without jet engines (Whittle).

You wouldn't have seen any dive sites on TV either (Logie Baird)

You also wouldn't be booking many resorts without the telephone (Bell) or the world wide web (Berners Lee).

I guess the Brits didn't contribute much of any use to modern society with their invention or engineering of the above items!

Packhorse
January 1st, 2008, 04:41 AM
- Mclaren with 9 [1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1998, 1999], ....

Mclaren was started by a Kiwi call Bruce.

offthewall1
January 1st, 2008, 10:36 AM
This has been a hijacked thread if I ever saw one... LOL... but entertaining none-the-less.

anytime
January 1st, 2008, 11:01 AM
I dive with a cressi eclipse titanium. I have had it for a year now and it has 150+ dives on it with 3/4 of those being at 100+ down to 135'. I love my reg. I have switched with buddies who have the scuba pro and apex and they all come up telling me they like my reg better. 2 have actually bought these for their primary. I think it is a great breather and I like the small size.

tridacna
January 1st, 2008, 11:59 AM
Ouch.

I don't think you would be getting much diving done without getting bent (Haldane), nor flying to many diving places without jet engines (Whittle).

You wouldn't have seen any dive sites on TV either (Logie Baird)

You also wouldn't be booking many resorts without the telephone (Bell) or the world wide web (Berners Lee).

I guess the Brits didn't contribute much of any use to modern society with their invention or engineering of the above items!

I guess that you could add: Concentration camps (Boer War), Colonialism and total barbaric domination of at least 1/4 of the world, warm beer and jellied eel. What would we do without those Poms? :popcorn:

couv
January 1st, 2008, 12:02 PM
Powered wigs.

tridacna
January 1st, 2008, 03:56 PM
Powered wigs.

ROTFL...I'm sure that you meant POWDERED. That was a funny image though.

We should not forget gruel, workhouses and all those fun relics of the 18th/19th centuries. Those Brits sure knew how to have a paaaartay.

couv
January 1st, 2008, 10:16 PM
ROTFL...I'm sure that you meant POWDERED. That was a funny image though.

We should not forget gruel, workhouses and all those fun relics of the 18th/19th centuries. Those Brits sure knew how to have a paaaartay.

Ooops, Did they envent spel chek to? No wonder my Limey wife is so damn smart! Better git me one of them powered wigs to cover my American brain.

daniel f aleman
January 1st, 2008, 10:57 PM
British rock and rollers. :rock_band

offthewall1
January 2nd, 2008, 12:33 AM
Updates on Regs...

The Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska free-flowed and froze at 84 ft in 36 degree water today on a test at Bainbridge Quarry in Pennsylvania. Our final evaluation of this regulator is that it is a great regulator in Warm water, but does not deserve the name Alaska and can not be taken seriously as a cold water regulator. It is a great breather and provides excellent breathing at all recreational depths in water above 60 degrees Farenheit.

The new Dive Rite RG3000 faired much better. While a slight free flow started at 84' in 36 degree water, it was quickly fixed before freezing by adjusting the external adjustment control. After adjustung the regulator continued to perform with no further issues. We suspect this is a regulator capable of competing with the cold water Scubapro and Apeks models...

It should be noted that the Cressi-sub was tuned down internally (less flow) prior to this dive and still cold not avoid free-flowing and freezing at depth in cold water.

Now you have the answers... Happy Diving

couv
January 2nd, 2008, 12:27 PM
My favorite Limey words:

Twit, whinge, cheeky, bollocks.

Thanks to Tridacna I looked up the correct spelling for whinge.

"What a load of bollocks. I wonder if that cheeky, whinging, twit froze his arse off."

Note: The above has nothing to do with the Offthewall's post.

c

mahjong
January 4th, 2008, 01:46 AM
Congrats and good luck with your dive shop! And I'm going to guess you're stocking Scubapro and, for the budget minded, Cressi regs ;-).


Lets face it... I've been diving for more than a decade now and just recently took the crazy plunge and opened a dive shop. In more than a decade and more than 1000 dives I have tried a few regulators.

My very first regulator... a gift from my wife was the Scubapro MK2 - R190 combination. I dove that for almost 6 years before I tried something else. Then in quick succession I tried something from Mares (it free flowed out of the box), then the Atomic B1 (it was like sucking air through a straw in the inverted position), the Apeks ATX50 (a quality regulator) and then back to Scubapro with the MK20 - G250, the MK16 S550, the MK25 -G250HP, and finally the MK11 S555.

In all this time I preached that I would dive nothing other than Scubapro after having tried the Mares, Atomic and Apeks. My favorite regulator from Scubapro is the MK16 S550 with the MK25 - G250HP being a close runner up.

Now for the Surprise... I have a new favorite... and one I never thought I'd have. Now don't get me wrong - I still own my Scubapro's and still love them... but there is a surprising alternative that competes readily...

The Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska 1st and 2nd stage regulators. Both my partner and I have tried these things and we're believers. The fact that both Scubapro and Cress-sub are made in Italy should not go un-noticed. The comparisons should not stop there. Both are quality regulators.

What is interesting is that Cressi-sub regulators have never really caught on in the USA... but they do very well in Europe and in Africa. So America, it's time to wake up to a less expensive high quality alternative regulator. The best part... they can be had for much less than their Scubapro counterparts.

If I were recommending a regulator today... I'd tell you to buy one of the following... in no particular order:

Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska
Scubapro MK25/G250HP
Scubapro MK16/S550
Scuabpro MK20/G250

While some will swear by Apeks regulators (and I did like mine well enough,) I can not find it in me to put them up to the Italian standards. Not knocking them at all... just my personal preferences.

If you're in Baltimore... take our Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska challenge. We go to the quarry and swap regulators with you. You tell us what you think.

offthewall1
January 4th, 2008, 09:12 AM
Congrats and good luck with your dive shop! And I'm going to guess you're stocking Scubapro and, for the budget minded, Cressi regs ;-).

Actually not...

We do not stock Scubapro... we do stock Cressi-sub as a line. Our other Primary line is Dive Rite. We are a full line-up dealer for both brands.

Dive Rite is an excellent product line-up and after doing our own homework and testing, we have found Dive Rite to be a top tier brand for our store line-up. Most everything we sell is some of the best stuff in diving. Our line-up includes

Dive Rite (Full-Line)
Cressi-sub (Full-Line)
Ocean Reef (Full-Line)
Manta Reels
Greenforce Lights
Pelican Lights & Cases
Citizen Watches
JW Fishers Underwater Detection Systems
Seasoft (Full-Line)
Sea Vision Masks
Deep See (Gloves, boots & Wetsuits)
Innovative Scuba Accessories
Endurotech (best tech gloves in the world)
and more...

Visit our website at Off The Wall Scuba (http://www.offthewallscuba.com) to learn more

Jimmer
January 4th, 2008, 09:26 AM
You also wouldn't be booking many resorts without the telephone (Bell)

Bell was a Scot, and was living in Canada when he invented the telephone.

Jimmer
January 4th, 2008, 03:15 PM
Updates on Regs...

The Cressi-sub Ellipse Alaska free-flowed and froze at 84 ft in 36 degree water today on a test at Bainbridge Quarry in Pennsylvania. Our final evaluation of this regulator is that it is a great regulator in Warm water, but does not deserve the name Alaska and can not be taken seriously as a cold water regulator. It is a great breather and provides excellent breathing at all recreational depths in water above 60 degrees Farenheit.

The new Dive Rite RG3000 faired much better. While a slight free flow started at 84' in 36 degree water, it was quickly fixed before freezing by adjusting the external adjustment control. After adjustung the regulator continued to perform with no further issues. We suspect this is a regulator capable of competing with the cold water Scubapro and Apeks models...

It should be noted that the Cressi-sub was tuned down internally (less flow) prior to this dive and still cold not avoid free-flowing and freezing at depth in cold water.

Now you have the answers... Happy Diving

I can't say I'm too surprsised. The freeflow on the Elipse Alaska we had to deal with this past summer was a monster, and wasn't as cold as you were in. I think we had about 48 degrees on that dive.

couv
January 4th, 2008, 03:39 PM
Offthewall,

Good luck with your dive shop. Thanks for being a good sport here. I know the denizens of Scuba Board are a tough crowd.

couv

stablgr
January 5th, 2008, 12:43 AM
Bell was a Scot, and was living in Canada when he invented the telephone.

Just because he's a Scot doesn't mean he wasn't British, but I appreciate the recognition of his nationality.

For such a small country Scotland certainly has had it's fair share of talent.

Lets not forget:

Alexander Flemming (penicillin)

John Dunlop (pneumatic tyre) although this should really be acredited to another Scot, Robert William Thompson who patented the idea about 40 years earlier in France and the USA

Kirkpatrick Macmillan (pedal driven bicycle)

Stephen Salter (wave powered generation of electricity)

.... and the list goes on....

Geoff_H
January 5th, 2008, 12:57 AM
Bell was a Scot

I think you'll find Scotland is part of the UK.

stablgr
January 5th, 2008, 01:02 AM
I think you'll find Scotland is part of the UK.

Depends where you've been educated :shakehead:

superstar
January 5th, 2008, 01:42 AM
I have a Pinarello bicycle

Packhorse
January 6th, 2008, 02:35 AM
I think you'll find Scotland is part of the UK.

Yes but its not part of England.

Geoff_H
January 6th, 2008, 03:29 AM
Yes but its not part of England.

Might as well say Scotland is not part of Outer Mongolia.... Or Italy.

offthewall1
January 6th, 2008, 09:25 AM
Offthewall,

Good luck with your dive shop. Thanks for being a good sport here. I know the denizens of Scuba Board are a tough crowd.

couv

I appreciate it...

dorsey61
January 6th, 2008, 01:30 PM
aqua lung legend is the top rated reg as well as scuba pro i love the aqua lung

lowridersvt
January 6th, 2008, 05:45 PM
Myself and my friends tested the Atomics (when we worked for a shop that sold them.) We took our Scubapro regulators and the Atomics to the bottom of the 10ft deep pool, laid on our backs and attempted to breathe. Before supporting Atomics, I suggest you conduct this or a similar test. I know you'll see the difference.

In addition, the second stages of the Atomics on more than one occassion fell apart while in use in the pool. The knobs on the first stages are a much cheaper grade plastic than the Scubapro and on more than one occassion the knobs broke off.

The Atomic is probably OK for a Carribean Diver... but don't put it into a commercial or professional grade application - it is unlikely to survive.

Man i just came back from a dive with my atomics under ft of ice you need to rethink your regulator choises i would never take scubapros any were near ice man they freeze solid allot off mk25 divers have finished there dives on my atomic m1 and have a cressi works great for a pool reg and btw my tech instructor dives m1's 500 dives in. And some to past 400ft still going strong

realdiver7
January 6th, 2008, 06:20 PM
Just for the record, even though I exclusively dive the Scubapro MK17 with various Scubapro and other 2nd stages, including the Oceanic Omega II, I have dealt with Ken at Off the Wall Scuba, and find him to be a straight-up kind of guy who seems to tell it like it is. Promoting his products and making fair comparisons to other products is OK in my book.

Besides, members of this board know they will make decisions based on their own experiences, and they also know how to weed through info to get to the bottom line.

barc802
January 7th, 2008, 10:45 AM
The partner SPEAKS!!

I am Ken's Partner and the one that did the test at Bainbridge on New Years Day.

I Originally owned an Atomic Z1, I still have it, my wife likes it very much but she will not get in cold water. The following is my experiences and not opinion. My Atomic Z1 was a good reg and I never had a major problem. When inverted in 90' 39 degree water it practically shut down. When i switched to doubles I bought 2 Scubapro regs: MK25 S600 and MK25 G250, both are pretty much the same reg just different bodies. They worked great until I got them serviced after a year. From then on they free flowed and froze on every dive under 50 degrees. So fed up with this BS I learned how to tune regs and tuned it myself. I have not had a freeze from normal use. I have froze the reg while filling a lift bag in cold water.

I went to Tobermory this past summer and talking to the captain he had told me that in the last couple years he had several divers using the MK25 have frozen regs at 100'. There were 2 other divers diving on MK25 S600 on this trip and we all bought them from the same store. Both of those divers had there regs freeze at 104' on the same wreck but on different dives. My MK25s work great with out a hitch. The temp on that wreck was 46 degrees F.

The New years Day test dive: 84' 42 degrees F (not 36 degrees, Ken must have misunderstood me on the phone that day)

I took my MK25 on my back gas and 2 stage bottles one with the Cressi Alaska and one the Dive Rite RG3000. I had the Cressi and my buddy had the dive Rite. I expected the Cressi to freeze and with the mouth piece down I taped the purge twice and on the second tap the reg froze. My buddy hyperventilated the RG 3000 and had no problem with the second stage cranked all the way open. I took the reg and held the purge open and was not able to free flow. I then turned it mouth piece up and laid on the purge and was able to get it to free flow, I let it go for about 15 seconds and then started to close the venturi knob (not the lever) and after about 2 full rotations of the knob the free flow stopped. I have never been able to stop a free flow at that depth and temp. I was very impressed with the RG 3000.

To clarify the purge on the Cressi Alaska is very stiff and only opens the gate partially, so i know that if I had breathed on it, it would have frozen. I chose not to freeze the reg by breathing on it because the area I was doing the testing was very crowded, a group of about 20 divers was at the same small (20') boat that I was on and I did not want to cause alarm to anyone.

I shared my results with Dive Rite and they agreed with my results and told my that they have done similar test with the same results. They also told me that the RG3000 is the best Reg they have for depths less than 60' and the Hurricane and Jetstream are better in deeper water.

My Plan for the future is to use 2 Dive Rite Jetstreams (Posiden Reg just painted in Dive Rite Colors) or Hurricanes (have not tested either yet but will decide after testing both) on my back gas and the RG3000 on my stages.

I have used the Posiden Jetstream before that was owned by a buddy and it was a great breathing reg.

Conclusion: I will be recommending the Cressi to anyone that is a pretty fish diver and the Dive Rite to anyone that is a deep, cold diver.

fireflock
January 10th, 2008, 08:49 PM
My Atomic Z1 was a good reg and I never had a major problem. When inverted in 90' 39 degree water it practically shut down.


The Z1 (or Z2 which is sold now) is not designed for 39degree water off the shelf. The M1 is, and has lube packed around the piston and a heat sink jam nut on the 2nd stage. You can get the Z1 1st stage sealed, but unless you did that you should not be shocked by cold water problems. Pg 11 of the owners manual, for anyone who cares.

You should give Atomic another shot. You might change your mind.

Rich

lowridersvt
January 12th, 2008, 05:28 PM
our local dive shops dose not sell unsealed atomic regs for the extra 40$ why not have it i have had really bad experiences with scubapro regs mostly the mk25 and the g250hp . the only scubapro that i have used in cold water with no problem is the mk17 and the old g250 .the stupid plastic or graphite parts in the second stage makes them prone to free flow in cold water . There should be a big warning on mk25's saying no cold water diving

Hey in tobermory the wreck that froze the mk25 was the niagara 2 or the arabia lol seen happen allot of dive there i make the 5 hour drive at least 5 times a year lol


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