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View Full Version : oms goes dir
nickjb January 27th, 2003, 06:19 AM Just read on the OMS site that two employees of Halcyon have left to join OMS and that OMS are bringing out a new range of "OMS ™ DIR Style products" http://www.omsdive.com/news.html Is this the death of BWOD? As a consumer it'll be nice to have more choice wetlettuce January 27th, 2003, 06:43 AM Hi Thats great. Its a PITA that Halcyon are always way more expensive than OMS. As OMS don't operate a price fixing scheme this is great news. Also on that page is an article about their new manifold GUE approved. I was thinking of an Halcyon one. I may rethink that if they are available now. Thanks Nick WL Jonathan January 27th, 2003, 06:54 AM nah! probably mean the price of OMS will go up!! Still you should be buying British anyway.... Jonathan MikeFerrara January 27th, 2003, 08:29 AM OMS is really cheap if you know someone who sell it out of their trunk with only a tiny markup. Everyone gets it at dealer cost. He has been the biggest dealer in the country in multiple years. O-ring January 27th, 2003, 09:30 AM Finally, another alternative! Notice that they are introducing a rotating bar manifold too! Can't wait to see some of the new stuff...anyone know who defected? ericfine50 January 27th, 2003, 09:48 AM It is a small industry. Was bound to happen. Who knows who left Halcyon. Funny, they are using this for ther introduction into DIR style gear. Took them long enough. Eric O-ring January 27th, 2003, 09:50 AM Maybe they should have started their own version of DIR with their own acronym, etc. Maybe my OMS SPGs will finally be acceptable.. :rolleyes: Genesis January 27th, 2003, 10:29 AM may be about to get another member... :) omar January 27th, 2003, 10:33 AM This is kind of funny. Both firms have old Dive Rite employees in their employ. It is a game of musical chairs. It has been interesting to watch as Halcyon struggles and learns about the problems of gear manufacturing. The 10W HID light is a good example of this. As for manifolds get the Sea Elite. $170 for 300 Bar unit. Anything else just does not make sense. omar Genesis January 27th, 2003, 11:08 AM the Sea Elite IS the Halcyon - minus the stamped "H" :) O-ring January 27th, 2003, 11:09 AM Genesis once bubbled... the Sea Elite IS the Halcyon - minus the stamped "H" :) ...and my Sea Elite takes a full turn or two less to turn the valves on/off than my Halcyon. Genesis January 27th, 2003, 11:11 AM in the stem threads. Ok. The 1-1/2 turn on/off of the Sea Elites is real nice. Own a couple, like 'em a lot. ckharlan66 January 27th, 2003, 11:11 AM Genesis once bubbled... the Sea Elite IS the Halcyon - minus the stamped "H" :) Never mind O-ring already said it. :) Chad O-ring January 27th, 2003, 11:17 AM Genesis once bubbled... in the stem threads. Ok. The 1-1/2 turn on/off of the Sea Elites is real nice. Own a couple, like 'em a lot. I like my Sea Elite better because of it...and it was cheaper.. MikeFerrara January 27th, 2003, 11:18 AM O-ring once bubbled... ...and my Sea Elite takes a full turn or two less to turn the valves on/off than my Halcyon. hmm...my Halcyons only turn about 1 1/4 turns from full off to full on. I guess I don't know who actually made them but they must have changed. Uncle Pug January 27th, 2003, 11:36 AM Seeing that Halcyon is owned by the president of GUE this will be interesting to watch! nickjb January 27th, 2003, 11:46 AM If GUE starts to get big then there could be a conflict of interest. Imagine if PADI sold BCs and other gear to impressionable new divers... buff January 27th, 2003, 11:47 AM Oh, that's funny! It's like the cold war. this from the OMS site.-about two employees coming out of the Halcyon cold. "two key employees have defected" AND OMS is redesigning an ODIN reg.....what is the world of diving coming to?? O-ring January 27th, 2003, 11:51 AM ...was that they were pretty impartial about gear as long as it was DIR. Let's hope that continues now that there is another player in the DIR gear space. I'm all for the competition though...that can only be good for us in terms of selection, pricing, and availability. Maybe they can make scooters too...how about a "Garvin" scooter or a "Gavim"? MikeFerrara January 27th, 2003, 11:57 AM Uncle Pug once bubbled... Seeing that Halcyon is owned by the president of GUE this will be interesting to watch! How so? Spectre January 27th, 2003, 12:00 PM O-ring once bubbled... Maybe they can make scooters too...how about a "Garvin" scooter or a "Gavim"? I can see it now, knock off Garvm's, with a 'blemish' in the logo above the first vertical line in the m :) O-ring January 27th, 2003, 12:01 PM MikeFerrara once bubbled... How so? ...it would be interesting to watch if they switched to a Halcyon only policy, i.e. Halcyon is now the only DIR gear. I think that would kill GUE...not that they would do it, but... chris_b January 27th, 2003, 12:01 PM I'm curious why they need Halcyon "defectors" to "become DIR." Can't they just buy a copy of JJ's book? Or if they're really into the cloak-and-dagger thing, send someone to a GUE class "undercover." Maybe this could be the basis for the script of the next James Bond movie! "two key employees have defected" ericfine50 January 27th, 2003, 12:12 PM As long as the gear works with the DIR system. I think it will be a good thing in the long run. If the stuff is really good, divers will dive it. I think it is funny how they announced it. OMS seems to have a flare for that type of language. Just check out the ad for the 02 alanyzer. The industry is small and this will keep on happening. Eric MikeFerrara January 27th, 2003, 12:23 PM I was interested to see that they are using the term "DIR". I was led to believe thet the term was exclusive. I didn't check the legality I just let it go. Halcyon has been interesting to watch. For the last year we have sold Halcyon almost exclusively and I can't even teach DIRF. To put this in perspective Fifth-D sells more Halcyon equipment in my area than I do. The amount of equipment that must have been sold through their DIRF classes is mind boggleing. Many have found it more cost effective to buy other plates. Many find products such as the backup lights too expensive. There are many "Hogarthian" rigged divers who have used Dive right and OMS plates and wings for years and years. Let's face it alot of Hacyon apeal is in the brand name. WKPP sells DIR, DIR sells GUE and all that sells Halcyon. It will be interesting to see what happens one everyone jumps on the DIR bandwagon. chris_b January 27th, 2003, 12:30 PM MikeFerrara once bubbled... ...It will be interesting to see what happens on[c]e everyone jumps on the DIR bandwagon. We can all get great deals on pink-anodized Dacor backplate and neon-piped wings on closeout! Woohoo for competition! =-) Uncle Pug January 27th, 2003, 12:32 PM Uncle Pug once bubbled... This will be interesting! MikeFerrara once bubbled... How so? MikeFerrara once bubbled... WKPP sells DIR, DIR sells GUE and all that sells Halcyon. It will be interesting to see what happens one everyone jumps on the DIR bandwagon. So I have to ask, "How so?" :D MikeFerrara January 27th, 2003, 12:35 PM chris_b once bubbled... We can all get great deals on pink-anodized Dacor backplate and neon-piped wings on closeout! Woohoo for competition! =-) I haven't heard anything about these products. Any details? chris_b January 27th, 2003, 12:37 PM Mike, I was just carrying your "once everyone gets on the bandwagon" statment out to its logical conclusion! ericfine50 January 27th, 2003, 12:47 PM Looks like the OMS-DIR gear has been brought up on quest. Should be interesting reading. Eric MikeFerrara January 27th, 2003, 12:50 PM chris_b, I think it's a valid point. I think there will be more lagit "DIR"solutions. I also think the term will be used to describe equipment that may not be "DIR". As more companies use the term I can see the definition or at least the perceived definition being diluted. O-ring January 27th, 2003, 12:51 PM ericfine50 once bubbled... Looks like the OMS-DIR gear has been brought up on quest. Should be interesting reading. Eric :hiding: Uncle Pug January 27th, 2003, 12:54 PM O-ring once bubbled... :hiding: if they ever figger out who it was... you will probably loose your DIRf certification! O-ring January 27th, 2003, 12:56 PM Uncle Pug once bubbled... if they ever figger out who it was... you will probably loose your DIRf certification! But I spent a week making the C-card in powerpoint...I even embossed JJ's face on it... Oh well, none of the NE boats will take it anyway... O-ring January 27th, 2003, 12:58 PM OMS DIR Bungee Wings of Life Uncle Pug January 27th, 2003, 01:03 PM Maaaaybe OMS will issue DIR cards with each piece of DIR gear purchased! Saaaay.... since you already chucked the pooch into the pot maybe you otta stir it.... Howsabout openly speculating on Quest about the possibility of some other training organizations seeing the *wisdom* in offering DIR courses now that OMS has broken the ice. :D Report back. O-ring January 27th, 2003, 01:18 PM Howsabout openly speculating on Quest about the possibility of some other training organizations seeing the *wisdom* in offering DIR courses now that OMS has broken the ice. Now there's an interesting thought...maybe someone else who hasn't posted lately should inquire about that over on quest (*nudge nudge*). I am envisioning a DIR Diver Specialty Card now that you mentioned the concept... Scubaroo January 27th, 2003, 01:32 PM I notice that two sections on the OMS website criticizing the barrel-style manifolds, and Halcyon Explorer wing construction, have quietly gone away... O-ring January 27th, 2003, 01:34 PM Scubaroo once bubbled... I notice that two sections on the OMS website criticizing the barrel-style manifolds, and Halcyon Explorer wing construction, have quietly gone away... I forgot they had that whole page before on how the "weak" barrel style manifolds were inferior to their own design. Uncle Pug January 27th, 2003, 01:52 PM O-ring once bubbled... I forgot they had that whole page before on how the "weak" barrel style manifolds were inferior to their own design. Now I'm starting to doubt that everything I read on the internet is true... Shoot. Scubaroo January 27th, 2003, 02:00 PM So is the quest for the "GUE approved" label going to override everything OMS has done in the past? Bye bye bungees! Scubaroo January 27th, 2003, 02:02 PM Uncle Pug once bubbled... Now I'm starting to doubt that everything I read on the internet is true... Shoot. For the most part, everything on the internet is true. I consider www.satirewire.com and www.theonion.com far superior news sources to anything CNN or FoxNews can come up with. O-ring January 27th, 2003, 02:02 PM Scubaroo once bubbled... So is the quest for the "GUE approved" label going to override everything OMS has done in the past? Bye bye bungees! Is this going to be like the Designed for use with Microsoft Windows label? I wonder what the requirements for "GUE Approved" will be... Uncle Pug January 27th, 2003, 02:10 PM O-ring once bubbled... I wonder what the requirements for "GUE Approved" will be... Will it matter when DIR training goes *mainstream* as a PADI specialty course? detroit diver January 27th, 2003, 02:13 PM I don't think so. And it doesn't say that anywhere in the news release. Maybe GUE style, or GUE type, or GUE wannabe,but it doesn't say that either. Spectre January 27th, 2003, 02:15 PM Scubaroo once bubbled... So is the quest for the "GUE approved" label going to override everything OMS has done in the past? Bye bye bungees! Oh I'm sure those bungees'll stay around. I seem to remember seeing a statement, and I recall being made by Halcyon, that not every Halcyon product is DIR approved. Although it could have been something GI3 spouted.... O-ring January 27th, 2003, 02:18 PM Some of the people on quest don't like OMS very much, do they? :D Scubaroo January 27th, 2003, 02:19 PM OMS are using the term "endorsed by GUE" regarding the new 300 bar manifold. ericfine50 January 27th, 2003, 02:46 PM Hmmm. I don't think I remember GUE endorsing 300 bar, they recommend it. I have 200 Bar and was not kicked out of my Fundy class. I think OMS is jumping on the DIR band wagon as it pertains to "branding". As for the guys coming over to OMS, they probally worked in shipping :D Eric leadweight January 27th, 2003, 04:02 PM OMS is just trying to stay in business. Look at their situation. They manufacture a line of dive eqipment aimed at technical divers. At the same time there is a very vocal group if divers, DIR, that calls their product the bungied wings of death. A lot of the voice power of DIR is that it insists on uniformity. When group of people speak in unison, their voice is louder. Halcyon has very high profit margins on gear that is (for the most part) not even patented, which makes them commercially vunerable. So far as I know, "doing it right" and "DIR" are not registered trademarks. They may already be in the public domain. It is obvious that OMS would have this response. I would be surprised if a few more DIR items do not show up at Dive Rite. I have mentioned this before, but there are $$$ waiting for the company that can get a ready to use DIR single tank wing on the market to compete with the Pioneer at a lower price point. By the way, Deep Outdoors has a 34# single tank wing out, but I have no idea of its price. Meanwhile, I am amazed that only one other member in this thread picked up on the conflict of interest issue from the president of GUE owning Halcyon. Money is a powerful incentive. O-ring January 27th, 2003, 04:34 PM Meanwhile, I am amazed that only one other member in this thread picked up on the conflict of interest issue from the president of GUE owning Halcyon. Money is a powerful incentive. ...and you are right, it benefits JJ et. al. to push Halcyon gear. That is definitely questionable... Also questionable is the fact that OMS had a page up explaining how the barrel style/rotating crossbar manifolds were junk and now they are making one to sell as DIR. You are right...money is a powerful incentive. Scubaroo January 27th, 2003, 04:48 PM As long as GUE can remain "manufacturer-impartial" (although the current DIRF book advocates Halcyon wings exclusively), OMS producing DIR gear can be a good thing - they join other manufacturers such as Dive Rite, GUTS, Canadian Extreme, DJS Technical (although Halcyon are trying to crush that one), and people like FredT as alternate producers of DIR equipment. Halcyon have already introduced their "Fair Trade Pricing" policy, which is effectively preventing dealers from competing for business as they are all forced to charge the same price - some competition may shake this up, especially if OMS starts producing goods of equal quality to Halcyon - then they just have the market image to hurdle. Now if only ScubaPro and Apeks would start shipping regs with 7' hoses as an option, and rename their octopus second stages to backup regulators ! :) detroit diver January 27th, 2003, 05:25 PM leadweight once bubbled... ....... Meanwhile, I am amazed that only one other member in this thread picked up on the conflict of interest issue from the president of GUE owning Halcyon. Money is a powerful incentive. Is it really a conflict of interest? Think about this. You develop an organization that requires top notch equipment that you can't find anywhere else. Nobody wants to make it to your specs, because of the limited marketing potential, or the cost of production (I understand he got turned down by everyone he spoke to). What are your choices? You can dump your principals and suggest that your students use anything that's available, or you can put your neck out and produce the finest dive gear that there is, and promote it. If you look at the manuals, the only piece (I believe) that they push is the wing-and that's because the quality is so far superior to anything out there that there is no comparison. They (GUE ihstructors) could care less what brand of BP, harness, or cannister light you use-as long as it fits into their protocol (ie no BWOD). JJ has been very careful in not making their instructors sound like a bunch of hardware marketing people. They would lose credibility if that were to happen. It so happens that many of us use their products because we believe that it really is the best quality. Still a conflict? Maybe. How would you handle it differently putting yourself in his position? leadweight January 27th, 2003, 07:25 PM How would I deal with a conflict of interest that arises from running both GUE and Halcyon? I would invent recreational DIR to greatly expand the potential sales base of Halcyon. Think of it. Promoting technical diving gives the dive industry a shot at selling more gear to divers that have been outfitted for recreational diving. But, they are a limited group. DIR directs that the diver will use gear that is, as much as possible, the same for all applications. Your cave students get to buy a Pioneer wing to dive singles. Next, think big, get everyone to dive DIR because there are 100 divers that will never cave certify for everyone that does. GI3 & Co. makes the DIR 3 video and recreational DIR is born. detroit diver January 27th, 2003, 07:42 PM Wouldn't it be easier to just create a high price line of jacket BC's and market them to the zillions of other divers? Your logic defies sense. Why would anyone go thru all of the hassle and put up with the crap from the anti-DIR crowd to sell a few BP and wings and lights? I think you've got the cart pulling the chicken. MikeFerrara January 27th, 2003, 07:59 PM The fact that a conflict of interest exists doesn't mean that anybody has done anything wrong but I believe it is a conflict of interest. I also believe that selling equipment and teaching diving is a conflict of interest. If I owned a company that provided any services or equipment that were used by the corp I work for they would not do business with that company. If that company produced the kind of equipment that I specify, buy or design I certainly could not buy from my own company. Every corp ethics manual I have ever read states that if there apears to be a conflict of interest that I am in violation of the ethics policies. I can be terminated for allowing the appearance of a conflict of interest. Even if I started the company because what I wanted or needed wasn't available anywhere else the rules would stand. If the WKPP had such an ethics policy they would not be able to use Gavin scooters, Halcyon rebreathers or other equipment. Bob3 January 27th, 2003, 08:33 PM Now if only ScubaPro and Apeks would start shipping regs with 7' hoses as an option... I know of one manufacturer that ships w/o hose, pick your own length. They also have built in bungee attachment loops, (bungee included). They even match Apeks in their "DIR requirements". Guess who? :confused: leadweight January 27th, 2003, 08:46 PM detroit diver once bubbled... Wouldn't it be easier to just create a high price line of jacket BC's and market them to the zillions of other divers? Your logic defies sense. Why would anyone go thru all of the hassle and put up with the crap from the anti-DIR crowd to sell a few BP and wings and lights? I think you've got the cart pulling the chicken. Point 1: Everyone else has already marketed jackets to the zillions. Point 2: Anti DIR hassle, for enough money someone would put up with it. Its more that a few pieces of gear. A company like Halcyon could have been started with less than $1 million and might be worth $30 million or more today. A single local car dealership brings over $20 mil these days, Halcyon is an international brand. Point 3: My chicken rides in a BMW. ElectricZombie January 28th, 2003, 11:59 PM I don't really think that a conflict of interest exists with JJ and Halcyon. Right now, Halcyon is the only choice for extremely durable wings of the correct lift capacity. You don't really have a choice if you want top quality. It will be interesting to see what OMS comes out with. If they fail to deliver a quality "DIR" product, they may do more harm than good to their reputation. It seems like they have done a complete 180 by coming out with "DIR" gear. Either way, competition is good and hopefully this will help lower Halcyon's prices a bit. ScoobieDooo January 29th, 2003, 02:54 PM "Right now, Halcyon is the only choice for extremely durable wings of the correct lift capacity. You don't really have a choice if you want top quality." ...I'm afraid that I don't share that opinion, and many other OMS users diving OMS. Uncle Pug January 29th, 2003, 02:59 PM ElectricZombie once bubbled... I don't really think that a conflict of interest exists with JJ and Halcyon. Perhaps it wasn't a conflict at all. :D Scubaroo February 5th, 2003, 08:53 PM Is it just me, or has OMS toned down the "nah-nyah" factor in the text of the announcement? I just clicked on the link and I think it's been changed to be less "abrasive". ScoobieDooo February 5th, 2003, 08:57 PM Yup, Looks like they edited it some - sounds quite professional. wb416 February 5th, 2003, 11:50 PM O-ring once bubbled... Finally, another alternative! .........anyone know who defected? Based on something I read on another board, it sounds like the two "defecting" employees had been released for work performance issues. OMS markets DIR (http://www.scubadivernet.com/wwwboard/messages/1704.html)
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