when a wreck becomes a gravesite?

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Wendy

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Ok, I was thinking about this today...is a wreck just always a wreck or is it ever considered a grave site? Let's say there is a submarine, it got wrecked, all on board die, bodies are probably still in there. Some divers 'find' it, wanna open it up, recover 'artifacts'. Would this wreck be considered a gravesite? What's the difference between that and let's say, I'm walking in the woods and 'discover' an old graveyard and I dig up a few graves to get artifacts.

Are German subs that were sunk off our coasts considered our property or are they considered property Germany when bodies are involed?
 
I would hope that divers would look but not touch. I also think that any artifacts associated with a dead body should definitely be off limits. Other artifacts should be salvageable.
 
We had a thread about the Edmund Fitzgerald that went into this topic not too long ago. It's a highly contintious topic, very emotional on both sides. I think it's important though so we should discuss it more.

As for the U-boats in specific, as I understand it, the German government considers them war graves but U.S. law does not recognise this. Our own military vessels, however, do receive some protection for this reason. Civilian vessels do not.

Hopefully AUEMike will contribute here. He is likely aware of the current state of the law and can correct me if I've mis-stated it.

My own personal feeling is that human remains should be respected and left alone but that wreck access should not be limited simply due to their presence.

WW
 
Tim Ingersoll once bubbled...
I also think that any artifacts associated with a dead body should definitely be off limits.

What are you thinking of here Tim?

WW
 
Wendy once bubbled...
Ok, I was thinking about this today...is a wreck just always a wreck or is it ever considered a grave site? Let's say there is a submarine, it got wrecked, all on board die, bodies are probably still in there. Some divers 'find' it, wanna open it up, recover 'artifacts'. Would this wreck be considered a gravesite? What's the difference between that and let's say, I'm walking in the woods and 'discover' an old graveyard and I dig up a few graves to get artifacts.

Are German subs that were sunk off our coasts considered our property or are they considered property Germany when bodies are involed?


Here's a quote from the page:
"U.S. military vessels are never abandoned simply through the passage of time: they must be officially stricken from the Navy list. This is the procedure when a ship is scrapped, or when it is sunk and the Navy has completed or decided against salvage. Otherwise, they remain as fully commissioned ships of the fleet, a kind of limbo status that grants immunity from foreign encroachment. In such cases each vessel technically becomes a little piece of America, wherever it may lie, a steel monument honoring the dead, and is as sacred as the Arlington National Cemetery. This is also true of foreign, even enemy, ships lost in U.S. waters. "


the page is

here ... almost 1/2 way down.
 
Gary goes on to say:
------begin quote-----------
"Of course, there is nothing wrong with visiting these grave sites-as there is nothing wrong with visiting the war graves at Arlington. But differences of opinion arise when the site is disturbed.

Removing bones and skeletons from a shipwreck is equivalent to grave robbing, say those who sanctify dead bodies. Recovering parts of the ship is like dismantling Arlington's fences and tombstones, say others. For some, even touching the rusted hull is like sticking your hands into the earth over a coffin. There are as many different modes of thought as there are people, including those who believe that respect for the dead is more a matter for the heart, and how one feels, than the location or condition of human remains. But this is a matter of philosophy.

The analogy breaks down when it is extended to include the thousands of nameless freighters, tankers, and sailing vessels of old. Some would have us treat every sunken ship as the final resting place of anguished human souls, and think that nothing should be disturbed. This is something like leaving every crashed car at the site of its roadside collision. "
---end quote-------------

I find the last sentence the most telling.

WW
 
raxafarian once bubbled...



the page is

here ... almost 1/2 way down.

Great resource! Thanks.

In the interests of remembering that this is a world wide board, I'd like to point out that it can change in different parts of the world. In Canada- any wreck is property of the crown. (I believe that a "wreck" is abandoned by the owners. Obviously, a vessel that has sunk recently and salvage efforts are being considered or are underway - is not abandoned. )

Thus there is never a case in Canada of underwater "finders-keepers". Anybody know the rules in other parts of the world?

Oh and our maritime territorial waters extend to 200 nautical miles.
 
WreckWriter once bubbled...
We had a thread about the Edmund Fitzgerald that went into this topic not too long ago. It's a highly contintious topic, very emotional on both sides. I think it's important though so we should discuss it more.

As for the U-boats in specific, as I understand it, the German government considers them war graves but U.S. law does not recognise this. Our own military vessels, however, do receive some protection for this reason. Civilian vessels do not.

Hopefully AUEMike will contribute here. He is likely aware of the current state of the law and can correct me if I've mis-stated it.

My own personal feeling is that human remains should be respected and left alone but that wreck access should not be limited simply due to their presence.

WW

I think we concluded at the time that it's not generally a gravesite in the legal sense. This means that you can take objects from a wreck and that these objects are not subject to cemetary law. The reason that a wreck is not a gravesite is that a body must deliberately be placed in a grave, which is not the case with a wreck.

Bodies, however are afforded legal protection. Removing a body, or body parts from a wreck without the proper authority is illegal.

Objects taken from a wreck without permission from the owner (if one exists) is still theft.

Wrecks of warships seem to be afforded a special status as war graves but this would appear to be possible because the government owns the wreck.

And some wrecks can be legally protected for archeological reasons.

And I'll stay out of the moral discussion this time :)

R..
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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