Spearfishing by Freediving Only?

[Rich (UTAH)]

Several years ago, I took my first international scuba diving trip to the Bahamas where the government allows spearfishing and game gathering by freediving / snorkeling only.

Is there pressure in California, Florida or other coastal states in the USA for similar regulations?

I would like to hear from those of other countries where this is law and how the divers there look at this.

[DennisS]

I haven't heard of any pressure to ban scuba diving spearfishing in Florida. I scuba dive and my buddy free dives, it doesn't seem to be a problem. It seems to be a personal choice.

[Walter]

What would be the reason?

The laws in the Bahamas are much more restrictive than you've outlined. Spearfishing there is not only restricted to free diving, it's also illegal to spear with a trigger, so only pole spears and slings may be used.

[Hank49]

I live in Belize and it's illegal to spear on scuba here. I look at it like any other law. Whether I agree with it or not doesn't matter. Follow the law or risk the consequences of getting busted.

But I do see a bit of hypocricy here. On one hand you can't spear with scuba, but on the other there is unregulated pole spearing going on by commercial fishermen, especially near where I live, and you're hard pressed to find a snapper or hogfish much larger than the palm of your hand inside the reef. You see 1/3 lb snappers and grunts in the markets. But get caught with a speargun and scuba gear on your boat and you may lose it all and pay a big fine. ?? whatever...

[ekremer]

I live in Belize and it's illegal to spear on scuba here. I look at it like any other law. Whether I agree with it or not doesn't matter. Follow the law or risk the consequences of getting busted.

But I do see a bit of hypocricy here. On one hand you can't spear with scuba, but on the other there is unregulated pole spearing going on by commercial fishermen, especially near where I live, and you're hard pressed to find a snapper or hogfish much larger than the palm of your hand inside the reef. You see 1/3 lb snappers and grunts in the markets. But get caught with a speargun and scuba gear on your boat and you may lose it all and pay a big fine. ?? whatever...

you missed an option:
try to lobby to change the law :D

[CraigAClark]

I think Florida has made some "restrictions". Not in how you spearfish, but in where you can spearfish. It is much more restrictive than for line fishermen. Also, with changes in size and bag limits. I remember when you didn't need a license to take anything, grouper had a size limit of 12" and hogfish had no size limit. So the methods used haven't changed but other things have, which IMO, compensates pretty well.

Craig

[Rich (UTAH)]

What would be the reason?

The laws in the Bahamas are much more restrictive than you've outlined. Spearfishing there is not only restricted to free diving, it's also illegal to spear with a trigger, so only pole spears and slings may be used.

Hey Walter, thanks for the reply. I didn't know that Bahama was that restrictive. When I was there back in '98, I wasn't spearfishing, but our boat captain explained that if we wanted to eat any of the lobster that we were seeing, we would have to catch them freediving, because Bahamian Law outlawed lobstering and spearfishing on scuba. If he mentioned anything about spear guns and pole spears I didn't remember.

Is sound like Belize has similar laws regarding scuba, but they aren't enforced very well.

I don't live near the coast and thus don't hear about any proposed legislation that comes up regarding changes to fish & game laws.

[sam miller]

I wish California had restrictive Spear fishing laws but the don't and probably never will have them.

Mexico to the south has very restrictive laws which are seldom if ever enforced.
No hunting with SCUBA Yea!! Good for the Mexicans! No CO2, cartridge powered guns or points, not over two bands for rubber powerd guns...etc

sdm

[Wayward Son]

I hunt both on scuba & free diving. I prefer to keep it legal & leave the choice up to the diver.

Spearfishing is no different than any other sort of hunting. There is no shortage of people who think their way is the only way & get pretty cranked up over it. I'm more flexible & enjoy a wide variety of hunting tactics, methods & equipment. I don't hunt to make the other guy happy, I hunt for me. So it makes sense for me to do things the way that I want to, not the way someone I may not even know insists on.

[Richesb]

Point of information
Restrictions on spearfishing are MUCH MORE restrictive in Florida than hook & line fishing.
Many restricted areas allow fishing (H&L) but no spearfishing at all. You can H&L in man made canals, but cannot dive in them. You can fish within 100yds of residential shoreline, but cannot dive.

[Walter]

Hey Walter, thanks for the reply. I didn't know that Bahama was that restrictive. When I was there back in '98, I wasn't spearfishing, but our boat captain explained that if we wanted to eat any of the lobster that we were seeing, we would have to catch them freediving, because Bahamian Law outlawed lobstering and spearfishing on scuba. If he mentioned anything about spear guns and pole spears I didn't remember.

Unless it's changed, while you have to take lobster while free diving, you were allowed to spear them.

[The Butcher]

I wish California had restrictive Spear fishing laws but the don't and probably never will have them.

Mexico to the south has very restrictive laws which are seldom if ever enforced.
No hunting with SCUBA Yea!! Good for the Mexicans! No CO2, cartridge powered guns or points, not over two bands for rubber powerd guns...etc

sdm

Why would you want more interfernece on hunting? Personally my goal is to go to rebreather so that I can hunt even more stealth. I hunt for a meal-not for sport.

If any restrictions need to be made, it should be on commercial fisherman. Especially those who drag the bottom. The only keep 10% of what they dredge up. The rest dies -eggs and all. Mexico is the worst of the offenders.

Don't be a hater.

[Wayward Son]

FWIW, check the regs where you dive. Currently, rebreathers are illegal for spearing in both FL and AL. Can't say for other states & am unsure about federal waters. But they're too expensive to assume anything, LOL

[Fatboy rider]

"Spearfishing is no different than any other sort of hunting. There is no shortage of people who think their way is the only way & get pretty cranked up over it. I'm more flexible & enjoy a wide variety of hunting tactics, methods & equipment. I don't hunt to make the other guy happy, I hunt for me. So it makes sense for me to do things the way that I want to, not the way someone I may not even know insists on. "
Wayward Son


Well said

The more restrictions placed on any sport the fewer people will enjoy it!

Walt

[Ronjac]

I would like to hear from those of other countries where this is law and how the divers there look at this.[/QUOTE]


I’m not much into underwater hunting these days, but as far as I know in most of Europe it is illegal to use scuba for spear fishing. Furthermore, the law for underwater activities of most Mediterranean countries is very restrictive and you are not allowed to have u/w hunting equipment, or even any catch (fish, shells) on boat with scuba divers.

[Chad Carney]

For the anti-spearfishing on scuba viewpoint all you need do is take a look at a freediving forum like deeperblue.net or the Freedive list... they're jammed with it.

I'm a freediver too but I don't see the need to be negative about scuba spearfishing where it is legal.

Another note: Many divers think it is easier and more efficient to hunt on scuba. Take a look at the weigh-ins of many mixed or open tournaments and you will see that in reality it's much closer to 50/50. Many freedivers will admit it is often much easier to spear some species of fish without tanks. Conversely much of the deep technical spearfishing is equally as arduos and dangerous as any freedive hunting.

Right now a huge amount of pressure is coming down on our sport. There is very little information about this here on ScubaBoard, so this once I'll include a link to Spearboard's Fishing Regulation section, where you can see that soon you may not be able to spear nearly anything, with or without tanks, if you don't get proactive. Spearfishing Regulations - Spearboard Spearfishing Community (http://www.spearboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=67)

I believe it best for all spearfishermen to stick together, and furthermore to stick together with all recreational fishermen, or we will likely continue to have our rights taken away!

Chad

[thorndog]

Spear fishing is far more harmful than hook and line fishing since the 'hunter' almost always kills the biggest prize he (or she)can find. Especially commercial fishermen.
The biggest fish are the most important ones since they produce so many more eggs and are proven survivors. Fact; A 10 kg grouper produces 97 times more eggs than a 1kg grouper.
Missed shots damage coral too.

[Bob3]

Spear fishing is far more harmful than hook and line fishing ...I would have to disagree with that; there is zero bycatch, no fish hauled up from water depths where the bladder needs to get pierced before they can "try" to swim down, no fish having their gills ripped up, or having to run the gauntlet back down to cover.
Hook & line fishing, we often see a trail of dead, undersize, and/or non-target species drifting away in a trail behind the boat.
When we spear, it's the first legal size fish of the type we're after.
I would describe spearfishing as having the potential of being the most responsible form of fishing out there.
As with anything, the proper application is dependent upon the integrity of the person doing the fishing but hook & line has a LOT of wasteful practices built right into it, no matter how responsible the person doing the fishing is.

[james croft]

There is a scene from the 70's movie Billy Jack where the hero is surrounded by a group of thugs. Billy Jack is a former Green Beret and martial artist. The ringleader of the mob tells Billy Jack he is about to get his butt kicked as he can't take on all of them. Billy Jack basically agrees, but tells the ring leader that he can't fight them all, but there is one thing he is going to do: He is going to put his right foot across the bad guys head and there ain't a damn thing he can do about it. And then he does it.

YouTube - Billy Jack in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v325wdgoFH4)

That is what spearfishing is all about. I see a fish I want, I stalk it, and then I put a shaft right through his central nervous system and there ain't a damn thing it can do about it. No fuss or muss and no collateral damage. It is all very pure.

[Chad Carney]

Spear fishing is far more harmful than hook and line fishing since the 'hunter' almost always kills the biggest prize he (or she)can find. Especially commercial fishermen.
The biggest fish are the most important ones since they produce so many more eggs and are proven survivors. Fact; A 10 kg grouper produces 97 times more eggs than a 1kg grouper.
Missed shots damage coral too.

This is utter BS!

Since others have already answered the lack of spearfishing bycatch issues I'll just address the rest of the lack of knowledge here.

1. Commercial spearfisherman: First of all this is an extremely tiny niche business, that is shrinking faster than any other form of commercial fishing. I've spearfished all my life and know a few of these guys. They stick to the high percentage shots on average fish most of the time, because they are the sure thing, they don't break or lose equipment like they do trying for bigger fish.

2. The big fish produce no eggs at all, because they have switched from female to male. Yes, many larger species are equally important as males, but many people wrongly think that trophy fish are the master breaders, when in fact these fish are past their prime. Fish are similar to many animals in this capacity.

3. Spearfisherman are excellent divers. They don't crash onto reefs like rookies. They have a deep respect for all marine life and understand the importance of preservation of coral reefs. They don't pollute the ocean with any monofilament line, tackle or nets.

4. Responsible H & L fishing is an environmentally sound method of fishing, but still the recreational sector of spearfisherman is minute in comparison to that of the anglers. Fewer fishermen means less consumption, pure and simple.

5. Which brings up the real issue... unsound fishing practices. Presently over 80% of the fish population are being taken by commercial longline boats with many miles of lines with thousands of hooks. Nothing survives... the catch is dwindling and the bycatch is huge!

BTW, the Gulf of Mexico regulations I spoke about above have been voted on and it looks like we are facing a 45% reduction in fishing both recreational and commercial in 2008.

Before you come onto a spearfishing section of a diving forum and blast spearfisherman, you better do your homework!

Here's a good place to start! The FRA Fishing Rights Alliance (http://www.thefra.org/)

Chad

[thorndog]

I may know more than you think Chad,
- I dive regularly on reefs that have been depleted of pretty much all the fish larger than 4 kilos. Most of this damage has been done by spear fishermen, with hook and line a close second.
- Sport fishing by a mixture of spear and hook and line has played a major role in massive depletion of fish stocks of many Caribbean islands starting in the 20's.
- Spearing is the method of choice throughout the Bahamas for instance where I lived for more than a year and had various friends who lived from the sea. the Bahamas is huge but fishermen are resourceful and effective. Many areas there are pretty much devoid of large fish especially near population centres.

- As far as coming onto this board to "blast spearfisherman": Ronjac asked for input from other countries from divers. That's me and I am just giving my viewpoint, but don't assume I'm ignorant, we just have different sets of knowledge and experience. While you may be responsible and many of your friends in Florida may be too, there are many other spearfishermen who are ignorant and harmful all over the world. Just go to the keys in lobster season to see the best examples of that, or come down here to Mexico and see the guy walking along the beach with dozens of creatures of all sorts, octupus, lobsters, snappers etc., mostly all tiny like an oversized shish kebab on his spear.
Long lines and nets do cause more harm indeed overall in all environments, but spearfishing is one of the worst for reefs where nets don't get used.
- I also came on this forum because someone was asking how he could find someone to take him spearfishing here in the Riviera Maya where I know that this would be harmful and illegal, he was also contemplating doing it in a park!! Might have aggravated me a bit and got me started.

We probably agree that commercial fishing is the big offender, that could be done responsibly too, but longlines and pretty much most nets are not it. That leaves us with spears, traps and hook and line.
Don't tell me you never killed a big female fish either, also, a large male is genetically important if only just because he survived to get that old.
It has been proven that the pressure on reef fish is driving populations smaller and they are breeding younger just to survive.

- Bob3's comments are good
"Hook & line fishing, we often see a trail of dead, undersize, and/or non-target species drifting away in a trail behind the boat.
When we spear, it's the first legal size fish of the type we're after.
I would describe spearfishing as having the potential of being the most responsible form of fishing out there.
As with anything, the proper application is dependent upon the integrity of the person doing the fishing but hook & line has a LOT of wasteful practices built right into it, no matter how responsible the person doing the fishing is."
I think there are a lot of unscrupulous fishermen in the world by whatever method but taken as a whole massive overfishing is occurring and causing great harm to the seas, oceans, lakes and rivers of the world. If you eat seafood that was taken irresponsibly, you are part of the problem, and I'm not addressing that to spearfishermen alone but we all count.
I fish only with hook and line and almost never kill a fish. But I don't fish in very deep water either and Bob3's point about expanded bladders is a good one. Many many anglers practice catch and release and while this does cause some harm, a spear is kind of final.

- Bob3 puts his finger right on one of the problems though when he says, "When we spear, it's the first legal size fish of the type we're after."
Spearing tends to target only certain species and over time tends to greatly reduce their numbers and typically removes larger fish of these species from the ecosystem, this is very harmful to tropical reefs in a way that hook and line and traps are not since they are more general in nature.
thorndog

[Ana]

- Bob3 puts his finger right on one of the problems though when he says, "When we spear, it's the first legal size fish of the type we're after."
Spearing tends to target only certain species and over time tends to greatly reduce their numbers and typically removes larger fish of these species from the ecosystem, this is very harmful to tropical reefs in a way that hook and line and traps are not since they are more general in nature.
thorndog

Wouldn't this general nature make H/L and traps precisely more harmful than waiting for a legal fish?

So a guy with a pole reels in whatever was swiming by his bait and happens to be a very ilegal fish. This guy is a very ethical fishermen so he releases this fish as fast and careful as he can, but guess what? this fish is already damaged... VERY damaged if it was a deep water fish.

In what planet that is less harmful that a guy with a speargun looking at that same ilegal fish letting it go on its merry swim? This guys does target a type of fish, but it is a LEGAL fish.

Also... if we compare the damage a bad shot can make to the reef to what a small amount of fishing line does to that same reef, I think you have to agree that the "line" from the Hook and Line is more harmful.

If you want to say that fishing is bad, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. To try to actually explain that topside fishing is less harmful than spearfishing is going to require some quantum logic because I don't think regular logic will cover it.

[Rich (UTAH)]

Wow, sorry everybody, being very new to the board, I didn't realize that my question would raise so many passionate responses. My intent was to see how people from different countries go about spearfishing and gathering, what regulations they are expected to follow by their local laws and how it is all working.

Since joining scuba board not long ago, I have learned a lot. There are quite a few regulars to this and other boards that might be looking for a new places to spearfish shortly. Though I don't live anywhere near the ocean, (I live on the other end of I-15 for those of you in Ca. and it is WAY COLD outside right now) I would like to be able to spearfish, catch lobster and so on when I do get there.

None of my friends that scuba dive are remotely interested in spearfishing, lobstering, and so forth, so I've been on my own when we make it to the coast to go diving. All of you here on the board are my mentors along with some books that I've purchased.

So, I have every intent of adding spearfishing and freediving to my infrequent dive trips in California and am trying to figure out about doing some freshwater spearfishing in the mean time to keep myself busy.

Meanwhile, I apologize again and will keep my questions to myself and will attempt to learn a little more quietly.

Good Luck.

[mudhole]

Rich (UTAH) don't bail out on us. . . the temperature is rising, but no flames. You've brought some very talented divers together to share their experiences.

For your benefit - there are a lot of freshwater spearfishermen . . . check the Utah game department for their regulations. Nearly all states will let you hunt the "trash" fish like the non-native carp. What you learn in hunting and spearing rough fish will entertain you now and prepare you for spearfishing other areas. Go to "Forums. . . Regional travel. . . " check for your state or region of the country. There are some states that allow half a limit of all game fish, so you can put something on the table.

Like the group of blind men all describing an elephant, we all have a different perspective.

[Rich (UTAH)]

Hey Mudhole, wasn't planning on bailing, just keeping my trap shut until I became a little more familiar with the lay of the land so to speak. I appreciate the encouragement and am planning on practicing on the local rough fish and hopefully, game fish as well. The reg's do allow spearfishing in some of the local lakes.

Thanks,

Rich

[OceanObsessed]

Spear fishing is far more harmful than hook and line fishing since the 'hunter' almost always kills the biggest prize he (or she)can find. Especially commercial fishermen.
The biggest fish are the most important ones since they produce so many more eggs and are proven survivors. Fact; A 10 kg grouper produces 97 times more eggs than a 1kg grouper.
Missed shots damage coral too.

In the USA, local state fisheries agencies work together with NOAA to determine legal size limits for fish. The legal size limits are set up to ensure that the fish are effective breeders before they become legal size for taking. I am not in agreement with you, however, if you think that spearfishermen are shooting too many breeding fish then your issues lie with fisheries management agencies and should not be misdirected at spearfishermen.

[Hank49]

Thorndog makes a good point. Unregulated spear fishing can be a bad thing for the reef. But unregulated is the key word here. Laws mean nothing without inforcement. Outside the US, this is a big problem.

[Chad Carney]

I saw a video by Dr Terry Maas last summer at The Blue Wild Spearfishing Seminar & Expo.

Part of it can be seen here: http://seawatch.org/mail_campaign/alert2.new.html

Quotes from the Seawatch.org website:

"Using compressed air has been banned in Mexico for sports fishermen for 40 years, but since commercial fishermen weren’t named specifically they have been allowed to use compressed air to clean the reef."

"Pistoleros are killing the Bay of La Paz. About 6 years ago, while other methods of catching fish had rapidly declined night time spearfishing became the last productive method of killing large and profitable reef fish.
25 to 40 boats kill 3-5 tons of reef fish daily, that's over 1000 TONS EACH YEAR."

Thorndog,

I'm sorry you live in a country that I and many others think does not regulate their fisheries properly.

Mexico is terribly overfished in many areas. About 12 years ago afriend went to the Chinchoros Bank about 20+ miles off the Mexican coast to film for ESPN. There were no legal size fish on this huge reef. He's a tech diver and had to dive to 250' to find a legal size fish to tape.
I read the Mexican commercial hookah divers are now diving to 200+ feet too to continue finding fish.
Seawatch says that in another 10 years they will have wiped out all the fish on the reefs.

Bob3 did not agree with you, nor does anyone else here.

I stand by everything I wrote. Spears don't kill, people do.

I'm glad you mostly practice responsible catch and release.

I do that too. It's called "counting coup". I don't shoot a large part of the time. I point my finger and fire my thumb. I also shoot a lot of video and photos while others spearfish.

Don't blast a fishing method that is soundly practiced in other countries, just because it's a problem in Mexico.

I'm not going to even comment on fish traps.

Our regulations in the Gulf of Mexico appear to be dropping hugely this next year despite some very questionable science, but it has nothing to do with spearfishing specifically. The FL Atlantic coast will likely also match the new 45% less regulations we are facing. Little has changed here regarding spearfishing versus H&L regulations in many years, because things work pretty well, and we fight pretty hard to keep discrimination from going on like it was in the past.

There are size slots in some US fishing regulations, and if the regulators felt they needed more they would already be adding them, but there is little change going on there.

In the Bahamas they also allow commercial Bahamian divers on hookahs to hunt where recreational freedivers and hook & line fishermen can only fish for a 20 lbs. limit. That is poor regulation as well in my opinion, although I agree with their right to allow only freediving and no triggers.

Chad

[CraigAClark]

A little story. I was working for a company in the late 80's. I was sent to Kingston, Jamaica to service some compressors for a commercial lobster and conch company. This company had several converted trawlers and used Dominican divers to harvest the lobster and conch. I learned that the Jamaicans were at that time, fishing 40 miles off their coast as everything closer in had been depleted to the point that it wasn't worth "fishing" there. I serviced a compressor on board one of the vessels and had a local helper for assistance. I drained the oil from the compressor and asked my helper to dispose of the oil properly. I watched in horror as he walked to the port side and dumped the oil over the side.

I also rebuilt a compressor that had been in their storage locker. While working on this machine, I watched as women began boiling water to cook lobster that was destined for Japan after being cooked and frozen. I watched as lobster were dropped in the pots. There were no size limits and it didn't matter if they were females with eggs, everything went in the pots.

I spoke with one of the senior captains and was told that these Dominican divers were making 10-12 dives a day to 80' or more with no thought to tables. Basically as fast as they could switch out tanks. When I said something about deco sickness, he said that they just tossed them a bag of pot and let them "smoke off" the pain. Average career span for the divers was about two seasons.

When you have national attitudes like this and a very poor population for the most part, you can't convince people that they should be concerned with any environmental issues, when their family is hungry.

That is what is responsible for the depletion of coral reef life, whether it is by spearfishing or other means. The US has regulations to try and protect our fisheries and of the caribbean islands (coastal countries as well) I believe Cuba is the only one that truly regulates it's fisheries.

So saying spearfishing is causing this destruction is absurd.

Craig

[100days-a-year]

I could care less what any other country does nor their opinion.Unless they are directly affecting our fish stocks.

By far the US has the most actively researched fisheries management,we have the largest stocking system,we have the largest system of artificial reefs.By and large our populace is not sustenance fishing but as a hobby.Our commercial fleets have restrictions on gear,spawning closures,limited entry licenses and a host of other regulations that help to keep our fisheries healthy.

[Mustangmermaid]

Thank you all for the information. I have made the decision to go forward with a project based on this discussion.

thanks again

MM

[Walter]

What project?

[Mustangmermaid]

My company has been approached to add segments of women spearfishing for a popular monthly publication. I was trying to gauge interest and this thread helped me make that decision.