Technical training and recreational diving.

[cstreu1026]

I have been thinking that, in the future when I hvae enough experience, that taking some tech diving classes might be beneficial to my recreational diving. I have no plans to get into deep diving, wredk penetrations, or cave diving. Anyone have nay thoughts on how benficial tech skils are for the average diver?

[MechDiver]

IMO *most* training will be beneficial to you in one way or another.

As far as "tech skills", that would depend on what your definition of those skills is I guess. If you mean using heavy doubles, decopression planning and diving, mixed gas diving, then no, I would not think that would be a benefit to you, especially in light of the cost of that type of training.

Nitrox, advanced nitrox and any type of rescue training on the other hand, would have a direct bearing on recreational diving.

Tek training, in most cases, also involves purchase of quite expensive toys, err...I mean equipment, that would have little if any benefit to purely rec diving.

It would be easier to answer your question if you listed a specific class you wanted to know about.

MD

[roturner]

cstreu1026 once bubbled...
I have been thinking that, in the future when I hvae enough experience, that taking some tech diving classes might be beneficial to my recreational diving. I have no plans to get into deep diving, wredk penetrations, or cave diving. Anyone have nay thoughts on how benficial tech skils are for the average diver?

I have the impression that you're a beginning diver. I'd start by just doing a couple of hundred dives and moving along to advanced and rescue courses. These courses (especially rescue) will give you important skills that are directly relevant to recreational diving. The way I see it you don't need to look to tek courses to improve your basic dive skills. You know the most important skills already and you can do a lot to sharpen these skills without taking more courses.

Take buoyancy control. This is, in my opinion, the most important skill for any diver. If your buoyancy control is excellent then you will look excellent in the water. Practice until you can hover motionless for as long as you like. Motionless is much harder than swimming. If you're buddy gets bored with not going anywhere :) then make your safety stops a little longer and use this time to practice hovering motionless.

And you can use your safety stop to practice other skills too. Why not? You have 3-5 minutes of golden opportunity at the end of every single dive. Practice removing and replacing a mask during a safety stop (probably the second most important skill). Why not? Just tell your buddy first ;) .

R..

[The Pirate]

You don't take tech classes to improve your skills. Its the other way around. Dive several hundred dives or more to improve your skills; then consider taking tech classes to explore new boundaries.

[JamieZ]

If you want the skills that you need to tec dive but dont want to tec dive take the DIRF course. I have never taken it but I'm sure others on the board that have, will agree that this might be just what your looking for. You need to learn what your doing wrong before you can practice. Whats the sense of doing a thousand dives if all your doing is practicing poor skills deveolpment.

[cstreu1026]

I am relatively new to diving, but I am already advancing my training. I did my advanced last summer and am doing my nitrox course ihn a few weeks, with the rescue course scheduled for this summer. I am just really wondering if there practical apllication of technical skils to recreational diving? Of course if i get comfortable enough I may get into deep diving, atleast deep enough to get me to Bikini, but I just can't get to too excited about caves and wreck ponetration pretty much scares me to death....too many possbile problems there.

[The Pirate]

cstreu1026 once bubbled...
I am just really wondering if there practical apllication of technical skils to recreational diving?
I don't know where you people keep coming up with the idea that technical diving requires different skills than rec diving. Diving is diving and the skills to dive do not differ regardless of whether you are rec diving or tech diving. Tech diving by its nature involves more task loading due to extra equipment, more demanding environment (deep, overhead, etc.), and deco obligations, but the diving skills are the same.

[cstreu1026]

The Pirate once bubbled...

I don't know where you people keep coming up with the idea that technical diving requires different skills than rec diving. Diving is diving and the skills to dive do not differ regardless of whether you are rec diving or tech diving. Tech diving by its nature involves more task loading due to extra equipment, more demanding environment (deep, overhead, etc.), and deco obligations, but the diving skills are the same.

There are definitely skills taught in technical courses that are never even mentioned in rec classes. Decompression theory is a perfect example. From what I remember from my PADI OW and AOW classes, decompression is never even mentioned except in terms of no decompression limits. Then there are the higly specific classes and skills that pertain to wreck penetration and cave diving. Of course the fundamental skills are the same, but there are new skills that are taught in technical course.

[The Pirate]

cstreu1026 once bubbled...


There are definitely skills taught in technical courses that are never even mentioned in rec classes. Decompression theory is a perfect example. From what I remember from my PADI OW and AOW classes, decompression is never even mentioned except in terms of no decompression limits. Then there are the higly specific classes and skills that pertain to wreck penetration and cave diving. Of course the fundamental skills are the same, but there are new skills that are taught in technical course.
Decompression theory is not a diving skill. It is knowledge and information that a diver uses to avoid getting bent on deco dives, not a skill. The only skills per se that you would learn in a cave or wreck course that are different or additional to basic scuba skills are environment specific survival skills.

[roturner]

scubanarc once bubbled...
<snip> Whats the sense of doing a thousand dives if all your doing is practicing poor skills deveolpment.

How incredibly arrogant to suggest that if it's not DIR/GUE then it must be poor. I hope you didn't mean to say this.

R..

[roturner]

cstreu1026 once bubbled...


There are definitely skills taught in technical courses that are never even mentioned in rec classes. Decompression theory is a perfect example. From what I remember from my PADI OW and AOW classes, decompression is never even mentioned except in terms of no decompression limits. Then there are the higly specific classes and skills that pertain to wreck penetration and cave diving. Of course the fundamental skills are the same, but there are new skills that are taught in technical course.

Decompression theory is theory. Decompression procedure is procedure. The *diving* part of decompression diving is, apart from the theory and procedure, no different than any other kind of diving. You get in the water, make yourself neutral and swim.

The same goes for the theory/procedure involved in penetrating overheads (wreck, cave, ice, deco).

There *are* some new skills involved in some of these things. Cave and wreck divers need to know how to frog kick backwards, for example. In fact, this is one of the few skills I can think off that tek divers learn that might be useful for rec. divers. The rest of the "tek" skills have everything to do with dealing with the gear and/or environment and aren't directly applicable to non-penetration, no-deco recreational diving.

R..

[MikeFerrara]

"Good" skills are useful for any diver. The finer point though often are not usually tought by many instructors in many classes.

A good instructor regardless of agency will teach them. Since someone mentioned finning backwards, I first learned that watching the PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy video. The guy in the video does it poorly and looks a little afflicted but the general idea is there. Don't take that class from an instructor who can't do it. The video also talks about trim they are just don't do a good job of explaining how to get that way.

A DIRF is a great way to get an intro to the finer points. If someone is interested in one PM me. We're trying to fill some classes. Also a Advanced nitrox class tought by the right instructor. The class is a little techie but the max depth is still 130. The purpose of the class is to introduce technical diving and and associated skills.

[JamieZ]

ROT,

What point weren't you clear with? Your pulling stuff out of text and adding your own words. What part did you read that said if your not DIR/GUE then it must be poor? I wont flame you like you just did me by calling me arrogant but next time watch what your reading and try not to add stuff in between.

If you have done a 100 dives diving the wrong way then you decide your going to practice this way. Its kind of worthless dont you think. He wouldnt in my eyes be asking for so called tec skills with out the theory part of it if he or she got good training in his or hers other classes.

Here I'll make it a little simpler for you. If you dont want nitrox, deco, adv nitrox or bla bla bla. Then you should look into a DIRF class because I know from reading posts on this board for the last 2 years that DIRF classes teach skill development to the budding tec diver that doesnt include all the other stuff associated with diving deeper.

If you really need it clearer I do not have GUE or DIR training mine is all through PADI/TDI/IANTD I'm telling you this in hopes you dont try to make your next post a DIR WAR seeing how you might look at this post and add a few more words to it so it sounds better in your head.

[gaschef]

Dear All

It is a good idea to continue with your diver training, as stated in a couple of the replies, technical diving does not mean that you have to dive deeper for longer with more decompression. One of the great benefits that you will derive from advanced training, is that of greater self reliance and self help. The buddy system is fine until the brown stuff hits the fan, and then you find that your buddy is nowhere to be seen. What then?

Most diving incidents occur due to insufficient pre dive planning, incidents occuring that move the planned parameters of the dive,
or lack of discipline when perfoming the dive plan. Normally the major problem ends up as a lack of breathing gas.

Technical training will provide instruction in proper dive and contingency planning. One of the main areas will be that of gas management. This most important area recieves very little attention in many recreational training schemes, even at instructor level.

If when you enter the water you are clear in your own mind that you have sufficient gas for the dive, plus emergencies one of the great anxieties has been minimised, and you can focus more fully on carrying out the dive as planned.

Basic nitrox training from a "technical agency" will give you a further insight as to how diving can be made safer.

Hope that this helps


Tim "gaschef" Stevens

ANDI Instructor Trainer IT#30

email me if you require any further info

Just a thought to get your grey cells working

THe Buddy System, no recreational agency requires buddies to carry sufficient gas to conduct a rescue. Most divers are taught if you need air share with your buddy. What happens if your buddy needs air from you when you require it from them

Advanced dive planning matches the air consumption rates of divers with the amount of gas carried by their buddy. In that way you have a good idea that your buddy will be able to get you out of trouble

[mrule07]

i have thought about tech diving to gain more knowlage, my skills as a diver have improved over the past 2 years and i keep pestering people that i know and dive with about tech diving. go to your local dive shop and ask questions or dive with someone who is a tech diver and ask them,look at the gear they use and ask them why,then decide if it is for you

[TSandM]

cstreu, I'm going to second the recommendation to take DIR-F. Not because I think you should go DIR, but because, to my knowledge, that, and the Essentials class taught through 5thD-X in the Bay Area, are the only two classes that teach the parts of technical diving that are really useful for recreational divers TO recreational divers.

What I got from taking Fundies, and the subsequent practice, was a wonderful thing . . . the ability to position myself in the water (and relative to my buddy/ies) where I want, when I want, and STAY there. I got the skills to keep one watchful eye on my buddy/ies while still enjoying my dive. I got the gas planning and decompression strategy to be safe and rational for any recreational dive I want to do.

Now it happens that I have subsequently developed this bizarre obsession with caves, but I can tell you it isn't a GUE virus, and I didn't catch it there.

I am quite sure you can find excellent instructors here and there who teach superb buoyancy skills (and help you understand how to develop them), good propulsion techniques, rational gas management, and good situational awareness and team skills. But I can GUARANTEE you that you will get those things from a DIR-F course, no matter from whom you take it or where it is held.

[caverdave]

I am relatively new to diving, but I am already advancing my training. I did my advanced last summer and am doing my nitrox course ihn a few weeks, with the rescue course scheduled for this summer. I am just really wondering if there practical apllication of technical skils to recreational diving? Of course if i get comfortable enough I may get into deep diving, atleast deep enough to get me to Bikini, but I just can't get to too excited about caves and wreck ponetration pretty much scares me to death....too many possbile problems there.

I keep picking up on your "theme" of being curious about the skills/knowledge and how and/or if it applies to recreational diving...

From what I've seen and experienced much of the skills overlap to make you a better diver. The tech trained folks stir up the bottom less, seem to focus on the buddy and envir better, get lost less (?maybe?!?) But a whole lot of it depends on the what tech class as well as who that tech class was taken with. I would imagine it would be completely possible to take an advanced nitrox class, and never delve into the finer points of fin strokes as they would probably presume that you have this skill set down or would work on it in due time or maybe even (gasp) believe it doesn't matter?!?

All that said- - for what it is worth I too would encourage the DIR F class. At the very least there will be video which will allow you to see yourself under water and determine for yourself if your skill set is where you want it to be. They will hammer in all of the basic- err umm "fundamental" diving skills that probably should have been taught to all of us but seem to have been lost some where along the way (dive planning, bouyancy, trim, buddy and team, situational awareness). All of these things would then in turn make your recreational diving "better" (less silt, more awareness).

There have been lots and lots of threads on the course... there's nothing magical about it. Show the class outline to most LDS's and they'll probably tell you "ohhh yea we can give you that and for a lot less..." I'd offer that there is whole lot to say for being video'd, and you may have difficulty in finding that with any other class. It is plain and simply a basic level class designed to make you a better diver. When it is over with you'll have a much better idea of where you are at, and what parts of tech diving you may be more interested in and/or ready for.

Noticed you are in Ohio, hopefully we'll cross paths one day up at gilboa or some other place! Much easier to ramble over a beer or two... :-)


Dave

[BabyDuck]

there is a new 'intro to tech' class through tdi that has a similar 'here's the bar, here's how you get there' outlook that fundies has. bobby f on the board is so far the only teacher (ok, a 'very new' class, not just 'new'...) it was a good class, and the rec diver in the class said he would benefit. i know the techies did. just seeing bobby in the water for a few hours was worth the price.

he's the reason i got the interest to dive caves. he was my first post-ow-cert buddy, and i thought 'that's what i want to look like. that's who i want to be.' and just imprinted on him like - a baby duck!

[BarryNL]

I don't know where you people keep coming up with the idea that technical diving requires different skills than rec diving. Diving is diving and the skills to dive do not differ regardless of whether you are rec diving or tech diving. Tech diving by its nature involves more task loading due to extra equipment, more demanding environment (deep, overhead, etc.), and deco obligations, but the diving skills are the same.


Decompression
DSMB Deployment
Gas Switching
Valve shutdowns
Longhose setup/usage
Backup equipment configuration


You did all that on your OW course??

[laughintom]

cstreu1026
I am not DIR, HOWEVER, DIR-F is by far the best class I have ever taken. I approached the class as a workshop and worked on the skills after the fact. I don't think I've ever read a post by someone who actually took fundies and didn't improve as a diver.

[wb416]

I have been thinking that, in the future when I hvae enough experience, that taking some tech diving classes might be beneficial to my recreational diving. I have no plans to get into deep diving, wredk penetrations, or cave diving. Anyone have nay thoughts on how benficial tech skils are for the average diver?

I see you are not far from the Dayton/Cincinnati area. There are a few from that area that head up to Gilboa and hang out for some diving. All of us are on various points of that line from recreational to Tech/cave, and just enjoy hanging out together. We even have CaverDave along sometimes! :D

Come join us sometime and between the conversation and the diving, perhaps we can help answer your questions.

Cheers!
Bob