Please - The Stupid Need Not Apply ...

Please - The Stupid Need Not Apply ...

If you only want to be a jerk, flame, fight, argue, or follow the sheep to the Slaughter - Just hit your BACK button now. Im only looking for some Intelligent input.

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Seems that we have had another fatal case .... died while diving on the Inspiration Rebreather
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Now, a while back I mentioned my conclusion on the Inspiration Rebreather ... as well as other rebreathers. I also took some [red]HEAT[/red] for what I said. People don't like to hear that people [red]DIE[/red] using their products, which I can understand, but when is enough going to be enough, people?

I also understand that to many I am just another opinion, and we all know what they say about opinions. (But when a few dozen people regularly place their lives in you hands - due to the position the government deemed me responsible enough to hold - I make it my business to KNOW as much about all the facts as I possibly could as I am sure any of you would do.) As I look around I start to see a pattern that is just [red]SCARRY[/red]!

Now, I'm not a sales person for, a rep for, or paid by any manufacturer of any product period. Having said that I want to point out a post I made some time ago ... As some of you may remember That Post I Made Back Here ...

I cant help but begin to question how much research people really do into their products they purchase. All of these diving related fatalities that involve rebreathers have an eerie resemblance to what happened to all those Ford vehicles that used those "exploding tires". How many cases of [red]DEATH[/red] have to happen before someone takes some public responsibility for these occurrences. Why is it that every time it's written off to "Diver Error" or "Multiple Factors" played a role in their [red]DEATH[/red]?

Rebreather Divers and inexperience and/or Sloppy just don't usually fit very normal in the same sentence. The training is usually LONG and EXPENSIVE. And if it is everything but this particular piece of equipment's fault, such as "Diver Error" then would that naturally bring into question their Training?!?!

I don't like knocking the name of anyone that has passed away, especially those that devoted much of their time to helping others and was a very active Instructor. But, common sense makes me question something here. Maybe one of you can toss in your $0.02 and help me understand...

He had a tremendous amount of time on the inspiration (460 hours plus) and was the most active instructor we have had on the west coast. And maybe the most active inspiration instructor in the USA.

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This is not all that amazing by its self, because as I mentioned before, you just don't pick up rebreathers off the shelf at the local "Joe Scuba Shack" and start diving. These people are TRAINED and this kind of diving is a commitment... So yes, I don't doubt this guy knew his stuff!!

He was extremely competent and safety orientated.

Click to expand...

Again, no shock here, I don't question that even a little bit, most of your rebreather divers are walking examples of as close to PERFECT diving as you can currently be.

In fact during a training program .... skills that are now taught in the IANTD Inspiration course. So he has contributed very much to our training programs and to rebreather diving safety overall.

Click to expand...

Ok, now ... I have heard every explanation that I think is possible each time one of these unfortunate incidents happen. Everything from "It's possible that ..." and "We can't be positive, but it was rumored that ..." to "Multiple factors lead to ..." and "And then they incorrectly did this...".

Sometimes the "Conspiracy Theorist" get on their soap box (The 'National Enquirer' is in Love with these types) and start up with the, "It's a Plot by ... to assassinate ...", yada yada yada... But I will give one "Theory" some serious possible credence - How many of them are/were brushed under the rug, or that we never heard about, or are very effectively and swiftly reported as "Something Else", sometimes NOT even Diving Related.

I can't help but wonder (yet I'm afraid I already know the answer), at what point are we going to get the straight and narrow version.

CASE #1 Have you ever noticed that if someone (especially a non-or-new-diver) hardly so much as sees a shark, what we hear the next day is, "SHARKS ATTACK - NEWS AT 8:00 ... 8:15, 8:30, 8:45, 9:00, etc" not to mention during every commercial break for the next week. Then they replay "JAWS" as the Prime Time movie of the week, followed by "Deep Blue Sea" and "Deep Rising" as the Late Night Specials of the week, and "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" as the "After School Special of the Week". Then you might talk to that persons now publicist, you learn that while studying the migratory path of a rare moth they ran out of gas and called the Coast Guard near an area they "Filmed" a 2 minute episode of SeaQuest that had a talking shark special quest (that you again learn later was just a Dolphin and some guy behind the curtain with a Microphone).

CASE #2 But ... Some person is hanging around 20ft. during a dive, when their New brand-X regulator mysteriously dissolves in the salt water and then while reaching for their backup reg they turn and get their mask caught on kelp and it partially floods and just then a their partner was coming around to show them how an octopus was crawling on their face mask and the poor air lacking, mask flooded/fogged soul has a heart attack from the fright of thinking they were being attacked by some exotic sea creature (because they just watched all those shows after the story above) and while trying to release their weight belt they rip a hole in their dry suit and it floods and they sink to the bottom of the abyss like an anvil...

Now before I ask you, "What killed them?" I have to mention that in the last 2 years, [red]At Least[/red] a dozen other cases of this very thing happened! .... and ALL of them where ALL using the very same BRAND-X regulator... Oh yeah, and most of them were all experienced divers that were either Instructors, that had been diving since somewhere around the invention of WATER or otherwise very non-newbie divers.

Ok, now ... "How did they Die"?

Some have mentioned that they believe the reason we don't hear something like Case #1 above is (notice again the rumored resemblance between sharks and them), the companies whom produce the equipment used, have LAWYERS. Although said in jest, they may not be all to far away from the truth.

So once again, "What Killed Them"?

This usually gets people all jumpy and the response is usually everything from "Well, the Sea Monster got them" to a 'scuba.flames.r.us.rec.I.just.like.to.fight' blubbering hissy fit of defense towards the diver themselves and/or the Agency that trained them and/or the equipment used, etc.

I am curious as to others thoughts on why we, as an Industry, are all too quick to brush it under the rug? Do all of you believe in Sea Monsters? ... Or that it was actually the Kelps fault for knocking his mask sideways causing it to flood? Or that it was just a Poor buddy? ... Or that it was the Heart Attack? Or maybe, if you want to listen to all the Manufacturers of the equipment or Training Agency you tend to go with the ME's official report of "They Drowned ie..Ran out of Air, swallowed too much water, etc."... ?

As far as Fatalities during diving goes, and limiting those to cases where "Rebreather" were used, isn't it just a small chance of a hint odd that they ALL used the same BRAND-X???

I am really getting sick of the way blame is issued. For example lets say there is 20 pretend cases where, there is this tendency to quickly mention they ran out of air for some reason, BUT then Boldly go on about how they failed to do a controlled accent and how (now that they cant inflate and ascend) they Stayed Down to long, and after DCS/PANIC/Deliria/etc. "possibly" set in, they Failed to do "A-B-C ... through ... X-Y-Z" in the exact proper order with Perfect timing and then after having a Stroke/Heart Attack/etc. it gets rumored that they were known McGreasy Burger lovers and "Maybe Sort of Could Have Possibly Lead to Apparent Additional Complications". - YEAH - and he probably lives in Southern California and purposefully left all the lights on in his house and all the sprinklers going and was a member in a Cult Sector of a Environmental Hate Movement and when he wasn't diving (probably Scouting for new Toxic Waste Dumping Sites) he chopped down trees and dumped used car oil down gopher holes! Anyway, as I said at first, they quickly mention running out of Air ... OH! Yeah, umm, well, the ONLY common factor in all 20 cases was they were all Scuba Divers (DOH!) and they all used THE SAME TANK!

Did I lose any of you there? In case you don't see what I was getting at there let me be a little more blunt...

Ever notice that if they were a popular Instructor, Loving Father with 9 or more kids, ran a half way house/shelter for stray kitty cats, associated with the manufacturer or Training Agency that it IMMEDIATELY becomes something like a "Sudden Medical Complication"...

If they were relatively unknown, single, too old (what is too old?), newbie, wearing reef gloves with a hole in them, or WHATEVER ... then it was THEIR FAULT .... NEVER NEVER NEVER, is it the Rebreathers fault... They always "TESTED" fine!

Yeah, how in the heck would you know if they tested fine? "Because they said it did"?? Hmmm, and you knew EXACTLY all the conditions and were able to recreate them perfectly how? ... Sure, Sure, I believe you .... And all the other rebreather owners of OTHER brands are in PERFECT shape and ALL run shelters for kittens and have large loving families and go to Church 7 days a week and get their equipment checked/serviced at least once a week, regardless of being used or not, are LUCKY, Never use their equipment, only dive in Perfectly Clear, Shallow, Warm, Hawaii Featureless waters... blah blah blah.

"Something here Royally STINKETH"!!


Let us find the few things we can ALL agree are the same ...

1) They were all Humans

2) They are all [red]DEAD[/red]

3) They all used the SAME BRAND-X Rebreathers

Unless, you're one of those that believe people can follow some kind of "Higher Calling" and achieve some Blessed Statehood of "Perfect Diverness" where they are unable to make any sort of human error, #1 can wrap up and loose ends...

Other than that, Why is it NO one wants to state the Painfully and Absurdly OBVIOUS common denominator here?

I would suspect it can be traced back somewhere to the ALMIGHTY $.

Seriously, who is to be held accountable here?

The dead?

Hardly fair, low blow!

Don't any of the rest of you smell something fishy here? What would/do you look for while chosing your equipment?

When all those reports came out about people DYING when their Tires Blew up on their Fords did any of you say, "Well, they look cool and they are CHEAP" and then rush out to buy one? When all the companies came out saying it was this/that and all the other "things" did you believe it? Or if you bought a Ford did you buy the exact same model with the same tires ... On Purpose?

People, S.C.U.B.A. equipment is LIFE SUPPORT GEAR! I can't help but think BRAND-X should be on a different shelf ... The S.C.U.Non-B.A. equipment section.

I have been seriously researching rebreathers since I am currently in the Market for one ... Let me ask you all one thing - After reading about (especially when you read stuff like this) and/or researching rebreathers, how many of you would buy an [red]A.P.Valves Inspiration[/red]?

Doesn't a 1-2 [red]DEATHS[/red] per month Avg sound and sirens, wave any flags, flash any lights?


As I am close to buying mine, I hear of this latest unfortunate event and I have to honestly ask this because I really really really do not understand this ...


=-)

King


within two days of each other I read in my local paper "Our vehicle X has an outstanding saftey record" "Y are people killed while driving vehicle X"
I hope to not hear of a average safety record.

" company X cleared of price fixing" "company X selects price to sell to indiviual customers"
Have I missed the meaning of price fixing?

lastnight they showed a TV movie,just drew a complete blank, on the title. there was the line " corp X has had the cure for 8 months but the treatment is more profitable"
what of honour?

That in of itself but means ??? but as long as Brand X is not at fault, two deaths a month is an outstanding safety record
Maybe more like the quote in "Die hard" when the FBI guy says " I can live with those odds"

of course the link between violent actions and anti-depression drugs will never be made in the main stream media
oh the violent actions will be but you'll not hear that the person was using drug x y or z IN EVERY CASE but rather that they were using a gun, a car, bathwater, Brand X.

I have a frustration, my mother died and on her death certificate states she died from a brain infection and diabetes, no mention of her MS which multi symptons masked her real problem which if a doctor wouldn't have just passed over her problems as a MS symptom she just might be here today


I'm glad that you spot a pattern in re breather deaths knowledge is power how much more research will you do?

In the past decade hasn't it been deemed better to pass the buck than to take responsibility for ones actions face the consequences?
but as long and people let things go unchallenged "oh boys will be boys"
people like those in the abyss will pay the price
because there are people that have no guts to say enough is enough wrong is wrong a spade is a spade but rather send a slander suit your way

Religiously speaking offers little solace but it will end just not now, in the words of my mother "I'm glad I won't be in their shoes standing before the judgement bar of GOD"

getting off box

From what I've read, I don't see any unknown dangerous deficiency in the Inspiration. And in the last death cited the rebreather (unless I'm missing something) was being used but wasn't part of the problem(s) at all.
In the Navy, I flew A7s off aircraft carriers at night. People died doing that, year after year... the airplane wasn't the easiest to fly, carriers are big boats but little runways, etc etc - it's not exactly a low risk endeavor. Three hundred feet down outside a submarine isn't a low risk endeavor either, no matter what equipment you're using, and if enough people do it often enough, there will be deaths.
That said, as an accident investigator (aircraft) I can tell you that the press *always* gets it wrong... *always.* And our legal system gets it wrong *most* of the time, because as soon as dollars get involved, truth takes a back seat (it's easier to pay off than to fight). The combination of the press and the lawyers provide the public with incredible, sensational BS as regular fare, and you can rest assured that if "everybody knows" then what follows is an outrageous lie.
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Oops! Sorta drifted a bit there... where I'm trying to get to is this: Rebreather technology isn't quite ready for prime time yet. In theory it oughta work safely and reliably, but it is apparently a much tougher nut to crack than anyone has ever imagined. For the time being, rebreather diving (my opinion) needs to remain in the same realm as "experimental aircraft" and those who use them need to understand there is increased risk of malfunction that can easily lead to death. I'd put the "we're over the hump" point where the caustic coctail is an absolute impossibility - the rest of the system will follow. (there is some membrane technology in the works now that looks promising)
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I don't think there's any kind of organized conspiracy to delude the public re:rebreathers.
Rick

hi chaps heres my quids worth!!
firstly let me say that you all have valid points and opinions, but as a uk diver who has been diving the inspiration for over 18 months and some 400 hours and also did my training in cornwall with the makers of the equipment i personally have had no trouble what so ever, i have nothing but praise for it!!! it is a gem of a tool but in inexperienced hands at depth it can be a killer as we all know, at the end of the day the deaths could all have been diver error, and then again it could have been the buddy, who knows ?? all we can do is speculate!!! there was recently a death in cornwall , also a very experienced buddy diver, yet the last time he was seen was at 4.5m doing his deco, he dissapeared into the plankton bloom and was seen to have no counterlung round his neck !!! the only reason for this is bad cns tracking and a resulting 02 hit!!
the buddy is a very complex piece of kit so surely it comes under fire when someone dies, however how many of you are fammiliar with the buddy ??? and have you any mixed gas knowledge??? sure it looks bad !! but trust me the buddy is ok!!! like you have said the inquests hail diver error!!!
we all make mistakes!! look at the stats of deaths on open circuit kit compared to closed!! i know which will be higher, and its not just ccr divers being a minority sect, its diver error!!! like i say we all make mistakes!! ive been using ccr for over 5 years now commercially and recreationally and am also trimix qualified along with a few other gases you dont get down your average dive shop!!
and im still here!! why?? because i plan meticulously!!!
any ccr diver should always carry enough bail out gas to suffice an emergency ascent plus deco stops!!! its all down to planning guys, you can never plan enough!!!
stay open minded on the buddy !! it works!!! dive deep, dive long, dive safe!! regards NITROX

In NZ we have a different system.Everytime there is any sort of death,it is investigated by the crown (govt) who appoint a coroner or someone to do a thorough public inquiry
and the truth generally comes out regardless of what was at fault.The people here are not hampered by a 'sue you' legal system.I think that is a major problem in the US when it comes to getting to the bottom of things.
By the way,there is a rebreather marketed in NZ (from the south island) which is very cheap.I've spoken to the local rebreather experts and they advise everyone to stay away from it as it is a 'back of the garage made with what ever parts are available at the time' model.I don't know if models are made overseas like that,but isn't there supposed to be international standards with these things?
That's my 5 cents worth...(we don't have 2 cent pieces anymore)
Gasman

hi!!
sure people in the uk are avid make your own rebreather unit boffins, however in relation to your comment on standards and certification, the buddy is the only unit on the european market that meets all the laid down criteria and is registered for sale as 50m as air diluent and 100m on gases, its also tested to military spec!! however people keep dying on it??, the inquests hail diver error or mis,adventure!! its a good piece of kit !! like i say i use one myself!!!.

Call it whatever you like, but you have to look at the facts.

19 deaths while diving the AP Valves Inspiration.
Any other manufacturer have that kind of record.
Several manf. don't have any deaths.

ID

You can say all you like about it, wouldn't have one in my garage or truck or house.

Guys,

Can we please compare apples with apples?

From the Draeger website - the dolphin and ray are for use with NITROX only.
APValves Inspiration is also used for Heliox/O2.

Now, If you look at the depths etc.. that people are dying at on the Inspiration, and the general number of accidents in that range maybe we can start having a reasoned discussion here.

Personally, I suspect that diving with trimix is the problem, in that diving nitrox you can monitor and control the O2% easily, and hence the N2 is fixed. Diving Heliox/02 as you are supposed to do with the inspiration you only measure the O2 content, which is OK, as you have a binary mix. However a large number of people have used TRIMIX, and have hoped that the N2 level is calculable.

Again personally, I think that this is fundamentally wrong. The unit is designed for using heliox not trimix.I know that this is an exceptionally complicated piece of kit, and I have always wondered if people are tought enough about how to use it. Personally, I don't think that people get enough training to then be able to make their own decisions about what is happening, for example using trimix instead of heliox. A good case in point was the last death reported in the UK. The guy had recently qualified (TDI) using AIR as the diluent gas (ie diving nitrox) and died whilst using trimix, for which it is thought he had no qualification (Diver magazine, current issue). He used the wrong gas (if the report is correct). Evolution?

Whilst I don't want people to continue dying on the inspiration, we need to look at what diving they were doing (and the training they received). From the anecdotal evidence I have seen, the problem is when people dive Heliox/O2 on the inspiration, not when people dive nitrox. I would also question wether they receive sufficient training.

When other manufacturers openly say you can use their product with heliox/O2 then they can all be compared.

As for the new halcyon rebreather.... How many people have died on that over the last few months?

Jon T

For those interested the user manual for the inspiration can be found by Clicking Here.

I will have a look at this. Reading from the front page it sais that TRIMIX can be used (it is *certified* to 100m using heliox not trimix as the diluent if you read the small print)!

If this is the case... hox do you measure N2 % ????? we haven't invented good, accurate, reliable, fast, nitrogen sensors yet. (plus the buddy only has oxygen sensors).

I will have a good read.... If you can use trimix with it, I would be very sceptical of using it. Simply because we don't know that much about relative rates of absorpion of N2 and He, and how changeing the levels of them changes the mix we breath. Obviously, this isn't as large a problem for open circuit as for fully closed circuit. Hum.

Will have a very good read of this manual!

Jon T

Jon,

is anyone compiling data such as you are suggesting - I find that altought a lot of good comments have been made - a more comparative view point is needed - Such as:

Depth of dive
Gas used
vs - "Proper gas" for rebreather
Type of rebreather
Level of rebreather training
Levels of "other" training - ie. Gas/Deco training.

This is hard facts that can be studied and reported against - other things I would be interested in, but do not expect to find answers to is:
How "experimental" was the diver? since rebreather diving is still a pretty experimental thing - would some divers be willing to make minor changes to how the kit runs? how does that affect the performance and can it neccesarily be seen in subsequent tests?

It would also be very interesting to be able to compare NEDU test results for different rebreathers with the findings of the apple to apple comparison - perhaps there are inherent problems discovered in those test that have not been widely publicized?

Just my thoughts -
Dane