End of R109s Life?

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jfmatthews

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My LDS is telling me that my R109s are beyond their useful life because of wear to the chrome in the barrel. I don't have much more detail, but they are saying that the wear to the barrel will result in the regs breathing hard within a week or so of use. I've never heard anything like this before and was hoping to solicit second opinions before I call them back.

DA? Awap?
 
My LDS is telling me that my R109s are beyond their useful life because of wear to the chrome in the barrel. I don't have much more detail, but they are saying that the wear to the barrel will result in the regs breathing hard within a week or so of use. I've never heard anything like this before and was hoping to solicit second opinions before I call them back.

DA? Awap?

It would be difficult to make a proper assessment without seeing the regulator, but I can ask a few questions:
was there internal corrosion that was removed (leaving pitting) that will easily return?
Are there grooves worn on the inside that require lube to get the poppet to move smoothly (which will wash away with use)?
Do you have any photos?

Where are you located, you may want a second opinion if there is a sentimental attachment.

Keith
 
They want to sell you a new regulator.
 
Captain hit the nail on the head.

The air barrel in the R109, R156, G250, etc is quite large in relation to the poppet diameter. The balanced poppet in the R156 and G250 are supported by the lever and the balance chamber while the unbalanced poppet in the R109 is supported by the lever and the spring. The only thing that may contact the air barrel itself is the outer edges of the spring and any movement there is minimal as the poppet and spring move very little.

In short, even if it is worn to bare brass in there (which is quite likely and quite common given how they were plated, any corrosion that occurs on the brass is going to be minimal as brass is itself corrosion resistant and is not going to impede the function of the poppet or spring. In particular, anything that forms where it may contact the spring will be constantly removed by the spring before it is problematic.

If you are the original owner of the reg, ask the dealer who is telling you your reg is worn out and no longer servicable about having it replaced for free under warranrty with a new G250V - which would be the current model comparable to the R109. If you are not the original owner you don't have that option and may want to excercise the "find a new dive shop that is honest" option.

In the past I know that at least some Scubapro sales reps have given shops a great deal of grief in regard to servicing older regulators as they felt the dealer should be selling those customers new regs rather than servicing the old ones (Mk 5's Mk 10's, R109's etc).

One of the perhaps unintended consequences of building really good regs that last and perform very well even after decades of use is that customers really have no legitmate need to ever buy a new one and Scubapro is dealing with that particular problem with some of the really exceptional regs they produced in 1980's and 1990's.

One thing I have noted with very old R109's is that the levers used in the early versions (late 1960's to 1970's) have slightly wider tabs that do not work with the current S-wing and Duro poppets. However the current G250 lever works just fine and is about a $5.00 part to replace. It's possible that some of the roughness they may be feeling in an assembled R109 with an old lever and new poppet is the inadequate clearance betwene the two. It is important to remember that SP does not teach techs about old model regs at most of their service clinics so unless they have an experienced tech who has been around long enough to know how to work on them, they don't have much opportunity to learn the finer points of them. So it may be ignorance rather than dishonesty, but neither is a great trait for a dive shop to have.

If you replace the diaphragm and the lever and upgrade to the balanced S-wing poppet, the R109 Adjustable and R156 Blanced Adjustable breathe just as well as the current G250 and S600. The older brass orifice is far superior to the current plastic one, so unless it gets damaged be sure to keep it rather than "upgrade" to the new plastic version.
 
I've got a few 109s with lots of brass showing and they are still working fine. Corrosion, deposits, or tool damage on the surface inside the barrel where the poppet rides could have an adverese effect but are usually managable with cleaning (and polishing if bad enough). I suspect they just see an opportunity to sell you a new reg. I'd be looking for another shop, at least to support your 109. The useful life of a 109 will end when we grow gills.
 
I have a few 109 that are in really bad shape. The chrome is really worn inside and out.
I am thinking about having them re-chromed.

We have double hose regulators re-chromed all the time and they come out at least as good as new (actually the finish is often better).

You do have to make sure that critical interface surfaces are not badly damaged and it may need some polishing (often done by the person doing the plating), but most good metal regulators can be salvaged.

These are not plastic parts that will eventually be recycled into fleece jackets. A good 109 should outlast any of the modern plastic second stages.


Added:
I agree with the posts above. The big reason to re-chrome a 109/ 156 (or any regulator) is to make it look good.

I own several metal Balanced Adjustables in decent shape so for the time being the ones in really bad shape are just for spares.
 
Thank you all so much for the advice. I really appreciate it. I guess you could say I've been lurking around the board for a while now, not posting much. Feels good to be in the mix. Thanks for having me.

I'll be sure to provide more info when I have a chance to ask the tech some detailed questions. I'll post some photos of the offending regs if I bail on the shop.

As for Keith's question, I'm in New York City. I certainly don't want to badmouth anyone before I have all the facts. I'd like to give the shop an opportunity to describe more fully what they are seeing. That said, I am open to your thoughts about the best tech in this area. Maybe I have the wrong LDS. That, and I'm also open to shipping the regs.
 
If you would like to send it to a tech who's been at this since before that 2nd stage existed & knows exactly what he's doing, you may want to call Sea Divers in Ozark AL, 334-774-3483. George is an outstanding tech & takes excellent care of my Mk5-R109. Talk to Mary to make arrangements to send the reg in for service. Their rates are quite reasonable.
 
Here is another quality repair shop that does repair via mail. They have been a Scubapro shop for a lot of years. If it's repairable they will fix it,if not they will tell you so. They do not sell regs so there is no incentive to sell you a new one.
AirTech Scuba Services: Professional Scuba Repair Services; Raleigh, NC
 
OK. I have an update. I spoke to the tech regarding the regs. He's familiar with the lever compatibility issue described by DA above, so I'm not worried about that. His argument is that, because brass is showing, verdigris will quickly build up to a point that it impedes the spring, especially if I upgrade to balanced. He went on to say that I would notice a drop in performance in as short a time as a week-long diving trip (salt water).

I am very careful about rinsing my regs after all dives, but does the tech have a point here? DA wrote above that the spring's natural movement will clear any such corrosion before it is a problem. I guess that leaves me with two questions.

1. Will verdigris impede the spring sufficiently to cause a noticeable drop in performance in as short as a week?

2. Which set-up--balanced or unbalanced--is more or less likely to suffer from such a drop, if at all?

Actually, I have a third question: are questions 1 and 2 totally ridiculous!?

I appreciate any advice you have on all three questions.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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