Steel Pointer Stick/Tank Banger?

[CompuDude]

I saw a few of the DMs during my recent trip to Thailand who were carrying solid stainless steel rods, for use as pointing sticks, tank bangers, and bracing (support) for pushing against the wall to help hold position without having to touch the wall. They were also marked to use as a measuring device. One even had an integrated shaker/noisemaker. I kept meaning to ask where one could buy one, but kept forgetting. Searching has thus far proved fruitless, probably because I'm not sure what the "official" name for these little beasties is.

Anyone know of these, and can anyone point me to an internet shop where I can order one? I can see them being really handy for guiding dives on local trips, as well.

I happened to catch one in one of my photos:

http://kalani.net/LJ/pointerstick.jpg

[Kupu]

I have seen a few designs, usually longer and some with a small piece welded to the end to act as a reef hook. But they are always locally made. If you can't find ready made ones for sale, why not just get a stainless steel rod of the size you want from a online or local source, and drill a hole to attach a wrist strap? I bet your local machine shop could hook you up.

[chocolate]

We could usually get one from just the local market here with slight modifications. However, not sure about it in the US.
I know people who even make them themselves.
I call these dive pointers; not sure if there is an official name.

[Travelnsj]

I got mine in Malaysia in 04....would not dive without it...I have found them sold at places like Lembeh Straits...I'm sure I've seen them in the last year on LP and Scuba toys....In fact I believe Innovative products (out of Colorado) makes and sells them.

[CompuDude]

I got mine in Malaysia in 04....would not dive without it...I have found them sold at places like Lembeh Straits...I'm sure I've seen them in the last year on LP and Scuba toys....In fact I believe Innovative products (out of Colorado) makes and sells them.

And what are they called? It's the lack of an official name to plug into a search engine that's kinda holding me up. :)

[Rand]

From what I can gather, they are called lobster tickle sticks. I'm not a lobster hunter though, just FYI.

A quick Google search shows they come in metal and plastic versions, with or without the hook bend at the end.

Here's an older SB thread where they talk about the different types and how to make one. The links to pics must be old because they no longer work. Show me a tickle stick???? [Archive] - ScubaBoard (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-70691.html)

I wonder if you could just rip off the antenna from an old or cheap radio and use that. I guess it would depend on the type of metal and what you were using it for.

Hope this helps.

[red_barbarian]

try: chipmon58@hotmail.com he makes a product called scubasteel. I bought one from him on Ebay. It has a nice handle withe a small SS ring that allowed me to put a SS snap on it. I think it was less than $30.

[Bowmouth]

From what I can gather, they are called lobster tickle sticks. I'm not a lobster hunter though, just FYI..


Now that's a name I've never heard before! (and a terrible name for something that is NOT intended to harrass animals with or "hunt" with)

Here in Thailand we just call them "pointer" and they are for sale in some local dive equipment retail stores. Some of us make them ourselves though and just buy some stainless steel rod, get a hole drilled in it and attach a piece of string and hook.

If you come to Phuket I can get you one (or more) easily.

:D

[CompuDude]

Now that's a name I've never heard before! (and a terrible name for something that is NOT intended to harrass animals with or "hunt" with)

Here in Thailand we just call them "pointer" and they are for sale in some local dive equipment retail stores. Some of us make them ourselves though and just buy some stainless steel rod, get a hole drilled in it and attach a piece of string and hook.

If you come to Phuket I can get you one (or more) easily.

:D

A lobster tickle stick (used for hunting, btw) is NOT what I'm looking for. And yes, they are intended for use with hunting... you poke the stick into the lobster's hole and "tickle" the back of their tail to drive them forward into your eager hands.

They tend to be around 36" long, for one thing. The one I'm referring to is generally 12"-18", from what I've seen.

Tickle sticks are readily available. They're also very illegal here in California, although quite popular in Florida.

36" Aluminum Lobster Tickle Stick from LeisurePro.com (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/AQULATS.html)

http://www.spearfishinggear.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/ticklestick.jpg

My DM was going to go with me to Diver's Supply (was that the name of the big supply shop?) to get one, but other stuff came up and I wasn't able to go. I figured I could find them online somewhere, but no such luck so far!

I could have a simple one made fairly easily, I'm sure, but I really liked the one I saw that had a built in shaker/rattler, and I was hoping to find one of those. It's looking like I may end up having to ship one from Thailand after all!

[CompuDude]

Found it! They're commonly referred to as "Muck Sticks" (and sometimes, "reef sticks"). There are even a few threads here on SB about them (esp. in the Indonesia/Lembeh forums). Finally I have something to search for...

[Travelnsj]

Found it! They're commonly referred to as "Muck Sticks" (and sometimes, "reef sticks"). There are even a few threads here on SB about them (esp. in the Indonesia/Lembeh forums). Finally I have something to search for...

Glad you found the name....I saw those on either on LP or ST sometime I think in 06....does not seem to be on either site anymore....I have always seen those for sale either in Indonesia or Malaysia for around $10 to $15....do you have any trips planned for those areas?

[CompuDude]

Glad you found the name....I saw those on either on LP or ST sometime I think in 06....does not seem to be on either site anymore....I have always seen those for sale either in Indonesia or Malaysia for around $10 to $15....do you have any trips planned for those areas?

Only in my dreams. Thailand was my big trip for 2008. 2009 is still being negotiated with my other half... and diving is not her priority. :(

I actually did find a local company that makes them, although without the built-in shaker: Reed's Rods (http://www.twotankedproductions.com/equipmentsalesrental/equipmentsales.html) A little pricey, but not too horrible in the grand scheme of things.

[Travelnsj]

I bet you had to go thru a few pages to find that...LOL.....Looks like a good source. here is another site that carries them Gadgets : Reef Photo & Video!, The Underwater Photo Pros (http://reefphoto.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=13)

2009 go to Lembeh and Papua....you can use your Muck stick there.

[CompuDude]

I bet you had to go thru a few pages to find that...LOL.....Looks like a good source. here is another site that carries them Gadgets : Reef Photo & Video!, The Underwater Photo Pros (http://reefphoto.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=13)

2009 go to Lembeh and Papua....you can use your Muck stick there.

Thanks for the link... I didn't realize Reef Photo carried them. I think I like the Reeds Rods better, though. Stainless steel is less likely to bend than weak aluminum, and will work better than the fiberglass one as a tank banger. (Plus under pressure SS can bend and then [usually] be bent back, unlike the fiberglass which would just snap) Using one as a sand anchor in a wicked current can put a LOT of strain on it.

Lembeh is absurdly high on my list, but unless I can get my wife diving, I don't see her being too interested in the topside offerings. Thailand was a great middle ground.

[Travelnsj]

Actually there is a lot to do in Monodo/Lembeh. Lots of land tours and nice places to stay and you could take her to Singapore to break the bank...LOL....Papua very remote...but the Diving....Wow. If you ever need info let me know...I'm headed back in October!

I have a steel stick and there have been many times I have had that stuck between rocks holding on in a ripping current.....I could see a fiberglass stick snapping or aluminum bending....never thought of looking on a photo site for those. But I guess it makes since.

[fdog]

I'd just point out that the very act of carrying a "pointer stick" places one in a frame of mind that you're going to touch something. Whether it's dead coral, sand, live coral...the only use it generally has is touching things.

Some folks make the leap from using it to touch only dead stuff, to using it to herd and move living stuff. Usually to pose them just right for that perfect photo.

It's a crutch. Anyone with good bouyancy control doesn't need one.

I've heard all the arguments - "it has less contact area, so there's less damage" - but I've usually seen more damage from their indiscriminate use than would be caused by an ungloved fingertip.

It's like the no-glove rule. Folks that get indignant about the no-glove rule are usually the ones that put their hands all over everything, and the divers with good bouyancy control, that never touch anything anyway, could care less about the no-gloves rule.

Of course, like everything in the water, there's no hard and fast rule about everything, and there are some applications for the pointer stick....just pointing out (no pun intended) that most folks, with a pointer in their hand, turn into pogo sticks underwater, bouncing their way across the bottom.


All the best, James

[CompuDude]

For the record, my intended use is more as a pointing stick (look at that!) and tank banger than touch stick, but I do know how to properly use such a tool. Neither of those uses actually involve touching anything.

I may not be Tech 1, but my GUE-F tech pass says my buoyancy control is not really at issue here.

And finally, I don't care HOW good your buoyancy control is. To say that "anyone with good buoyancy control doesn't need one" is a dramatic over-simplification. A strong current (drift diving in Thailand, for instance) or strong surge is going to move you around, no matter how neutral and trimmed out you are. Careful use of a tool like this can help hold you still to get a shot, without damage to anything living. IMO, this tool's only "touch" application involves dead rock or sand, never something living (and NEVER fragile coral, dead or otherwise). If there's no safe place to put the rod, then you move on to the next photo opportunity.

Any tool has the potential for abuse or mis-use. But I don't appreciate any implication in MY thread that I might be headed that way.

[fdog]

Any tool has the potential for abuse or mis-use. But I don't appreciate any implication in MY thread that I might be headed that way. Nor was I trying to imply that your skillz were an issue! Sheesh. Nothing but respect here.



And finally, I don't care HOW good your buoyancy control is. To say that "anyone with good buoyancy control doesn't need one" is a dramatic over-simplification. A strong current (drift diving in Thailand, for instance) or strong surge is going to move you around, no matter how neutral and trimmed out you are. Careful use of a tool like this can help hold you still to get a shot, without damage to anything living. IMO, this tool's only "touch" application involves dead rock or sand, never something living (and NEVER fragile coral, dead or otherwise). If there's no safe place to put the rod, then you move on to the next photo opportunity.

As I said...

Of course, like everything in the water, there's no hard and fast rule about everything, and there are some applications for the pointer stick....

Just pointing out the way it tends to be used, not pointing fingers.


All the best, James

[Teamcasa]

Try this. GrillPro Stainless Steel Skewers 46064 - Detail (http://www.americasbestbbq.com/detail.aspx?ID=11014) Cut to desired length.

[Kupu]

My guide in Lembeh carried two, one was about 12" the other 24". He would do an interesting trick after finding a manta shrimp hole. After first pushing a small piece of rock or dead coral down the hole, and then pushing the longer rod several inches into the sand close the hole, would tap the two steel sticks together with a regular rhythm. After 10-15 seconds, up pops the manta shrimp to check out the disturbance, providing a good photo op.

[CompuDude]

Just pointing out the way it tends to be used, not pointing fingers.

Cool beans. :)

[Papa_Bear]

Thank for the Kudos for my dive tool! I will throw in free shipping for anyone who mentions this thread when purchasing a Reed's Rod! It is made of aircraft Aluminum and stainless steel we have two different lengths both come in the camera model..... :D
We will guarantee our rodes against bending under any dive condition! Send it back and we will replace it for shipping cost!
Two Tanked Productions HD & SD Underwater Productions and video services (http://www.twotankedproductions.com/equipmentsalesrental/equipmentsales.html)

[Travelnsj]

Thank for the Kudos for my dive tool! I will throw in free shipping for anyone who mentions this thread when purchasing a Reed's Rod! It is made of aircraft Aluminum and stainless steel we have two different lengths both come in the camera model..... :D
We will guarantee our rodes against bending under any dive condition! Send it back and we will replace it for shipping cost!
Two Tanked Productions HD & SD Underwater Productions and video services (http://www.twotankedproductions.com/equipmentsalesrental/equipmentsales.html)


Do you have a shop in Beaumont?....I drive thru there all the time. Katherine certified me before there was a Get Wet Scuba...small world.

[Papa_Bear]

No shop, I have been in the pass since 1978! Kathy's shop in Palm Springs and Wiley's SCUBA Locker carries them.....I saw Kathy in Fiji in December and was in her shop in Feb. Then turned around and saw her at Casino Point Feb. 23rd so yes it is a small world! ;)

[Papa_Bear]

Very cool blog if I say so myself:
http://www.leedsmond.com/weblog/?page_id=301&preview=true

[annasea]

I purchased a 14" stick in the Philippines for $12. Stainless steel, with two holes drilled in either end. A split ring was threaded through one hole which allowed for SS clip to be connected to it in order to attach the stick to a D-ring on my harness. It also came with a snazzy Hello Kitty (:D) strap so I can wear it on my wrist while diving.

[stevenl]

My guide in Lembeh carried two, one was about 12" the other 24". He would do an interesting trick after finding a manta shrimp hole. After first pushing a small piece of rock or dead coral down the hole, and then pushing the longer rod several inches into the sand close the hole, would tap the two steel sticks together with a regular rhythm. After 10-15 seconds, up pops the manta shrimp to check out the disturbance, providing a good photo op.A nice example of abuse, no matter how well intended (photo) and probably much appreciated by the guests as well.

[CompuDude]

A nice example of abuse, no matter how well intended (photo) and probably much appreciated by the guests as well.

Tough call. I'm not sure I'd call "making a sound so the critter gets curious and comes up to look" actual abuse.

We snap our fingers together during Garibaldi mating season... this make a sound [apparently] similar to an aggressive sound the males make, and they often come over to look. Is that "abuse" also? Snapping our fingers? In other areas, rubbing two rocks together makes a grinding noise that often lures parrotfish over to see what's going on. Is that abuse? (so long as we're talking about actual dead rock, and not coral)

I'm less certain about the rock down the hole, although I'm sure the shrimp could push it out fairly easily, but I can't quite bring myself to call tapping two rods together "abuse".

[stevenl]

Tough call. I'm not sure I'd call "making a sound so the critter gets curious and comes up to look" actual abuse.That is not what is happening. Putting a piece of rock or dead coral into its hole is teasing the animal, no matter whether it can push it out yes or no. That together with pushing a stick into the sand close to the hole: IMO teasing and abusing the animal.

[MoonWrasse]

And what are they called? It's the lack of an official name to plug into a search engine that's kinda holding me up. :)
They're called "car antennas".

You can buy them around Phuket at various dive shops.
Some outfits frown upon or disallow non DMs from having these, as they don't want every fool poking at fish, corals, sponges, etc.

[Papa_Bear]

IMHO, I think it is up to the local DM to decide! Are you the moral or SCUBA police? (stevenl) Your statement about what you want seems a little over the top to me? From what authority do you speak? As I told someone who has similar concerns about a Fijian DM "It's his reef and no one else knows better as to what that means to him, than him!" Most have the most high respect for the reef that puts money and food on the family table! So do you have evidence that some lasting harm is being done? I do understand that PC is important to many people, but in the vastness of the ocean, pulling one garden eel from its hole or one shrimp is pretty small potatoes compared to whats happing around the corner where they are dumping trash or sewage into the water? Just a few thoughts!

[stevenl]

So do you have evidence that some lasting harm is being done? I do understand that PC is important to many people, but in the vastness of the ocean, pulling one garden eel from its hole or one shrimp is pretty small potatoes compared to whats happing around the corner where they are dumping trash or sewage into the water? Just a few thoughts!Agree, but the fact remains that it is not good to pull that one garden eel or that one shrimp from its hole. If we all do something to conserve whatever we can, we are on the right track, if we all think: I will pull that one from its whole, because somewhere else they are dumping waste, we really are waisting everything we can and as fast as we can.
It is not about the one garden eel (although if everybody was thinking the same it would be a lot of garden eels), it is the attitude that is IMO completely wrong.

[Zippsy]

Wow, I was thinking "what's the big with making a tapping sound?" although I agreed that tossing rubble into mantis holes was a bit much. Pulling garden eels and shrimp from holes? It may not kill off the species but I am damn certain it is abuse to that one garden eel or shrimp. What ever happened to don't touch?

BTW, the DM from Bali that tossed rubble into an octopus hole and tried to dig up some garden eels and a goby didn't get a tip from me. She got an earful of abuse though.

Also, some of those DMs with utmost respect for the reef are "parachuting" wonderpuses in Lembeh so that you can get that "Michael Aw shot". That seems to put more money and food onto the family table than real respect. ;)

[Papa_Bear]

I think first of all it doesn't hurt the creature at all, nut it may provide a picture that my inspire someone else to come to the area and bring the Yankee Dollar! I have never seen any DM do something to kill or injure a reef creature or the reef..... After all it is their livelihood that is at stake! The eel or shrimp doesn't know if it is a cyclone or a DM and it seems to give the shrimp something to do! I just see very little harm in the action and I can only imagine what she said about the "Lecture" she got or the lack of tip! We need to not prejudge others actions, just because it isn't the way we do it! It may not be something I would do, but again its not my house, so I don't touch what belongs to others!

That is one of the reasons I made Reed's Rod so to make as little impact as possible yet let you get close without doing damage! 3/8" of an inch is better than a finger or hand or even a shoulder!

[stevenl]

Papa Bear, what happened to: don't touch?


but again its not my house, so I don't touch what belongs to others!it does not bel;ong to them as well, they just want to make money, and good photo op's make more money than no photo op's.
We have the same problem here with a lot of the Thai DM's, they care about the money now (understandably), and don't give much consideration to the future.

[Vie]

We have the same problem here with a lot of the Thai DM's, they care about the money now (understandably), and don't give much consideration to the future.

Ah, yes. Always the natives... No doubt all farang DMs are responsible, forward looking divers completely unconcerned with financial rewards.

[stevenl]

Ah, yes. Always the natives... No doubt all farang DMs are responsible, forward looking divers completely unconcerned with financial rewards.No, they are not all responsible. But it looks like they had it more drilled into their heads not to touch anything than most Thai DM's, and are therefor more hesitant about that.

[Vie]

No, they are not all responsible. But it looks like they had it more drilled into their heads not to touch anything than most Thai DM's, and are therefor more hesitant about that.

"It looks like" ??

That's just great. :shakehead:

[stevenl]

"It looks like" ??

That's just great.What do you mean by that?

[MoonWrasse]

No, they are not all responsible. But it looks like they had it more drilled into their heads not to touch anything than most Thai DM's, and are therefor more hesitant about that.

Some foreign dm's for sure are fairly strict about this, almost OCD - which isn't bad IMO.

However I've also seen foreign DM's which had atrocious behavior - taking photos of their divers while standing on fragile coral for example. I'd say the worst behavior I've seen was of non-Thais.

I've also dived with plenty of Thai DM's, and seen both good and bad behavior on their part.

[stevenl]

However I've also seen foreign DM's which had atrocious behavior - taking photos of their divers while standing on fragile coral for example. I'd say the worst behavior I've seen was of non-Thais.One can only hope that the dive op gets rid of these guys/girls as soon as possible.

[Bowmouth]

Eco un-friendly divers can be found everywhere and they come in ALL colors and nationalities. I am often still surprised and amused that so many western divers still believe any diver with black hair and a tanned skin is " a bad Japanese diver".

The "ultimate marine-life harasser" I know looks more like this: often over-sized and over weighted, carrying a top of the line camera (often unable to take any half-decent pictures though), completely oblivious of anything around him/her when going straight to the "target", grabbing and handling marinelife he/she wants to shoot, leaving the "target" in a swirl of sediment and broken coral when moving away to the next creature on their list, often unable to handle currents and always moan about the vis.

[vetdiver]

The "ultimate marine-life harasser" I know looks more like this: often over-sized and over weighted, carrying a top of the line camera (often unable to take any half-decent pictures though), completely oblivious of anything around him/her when going straight to the "target", grabbing and handling marinelife he/she wants to shoot, leaving the "target" in a swirl of sediment and broken coral when moving away to the next creature on their list, often unable to handle currents and always moan about the vis.

BWAHAHAHA!!!! Wait...you forgot people who relocate marine life to more photogenic locations/positions...I have seen this all over the world, but sadly, most frequently right here at home.

Oh, and those who feel that because they have a camera, they have the right to monopolize any subject they want for as long as they wish!! I have a camera, but I don't feel that it is worth it to get any shot I can by clocking out everyone else's opportunity to get a shot, too.

I just got back from Socorro - I have a whole list...sadly, exhibited by only one person (who hogged mantas for days until my husband and I finally staggered our diving so we'd be getting in while he was getting out - he wouldn't show anyone on the boat any pictures, so I have no idea if his obnoxiousness was even fruitful ;) )

PapaBear, I sent you a PM - I am really interested in getting ahold of a nice muck stick so I can start practicing for upcoming trips. Yours looks the nicest of any I've seen, and I have neither time nor inclination to make one on my own. Thanks!

[Bowmouth]

BWAHAHAHA!!!! Wait...you forgot people who relocate marine life to more photogenic locations/positions...I have seen this all over the world, but sadly, most frequently right here at home.

Yep; I've witnessed some BIG names in the UW photographer world grabbing and relocating (pygmy) and other seahorses, nudibranchs, octopi, harlequin shrimps, molluscs etc.
These socalled "photo-pro's" seem always to have the same excuse when you try to make them understand that it's just not the right thing to do. "Oh well, it's all for the greater good" they'll say because their pics will get published and this way they will create more awareness about the ocean environment by a lot of people.

Who needs pics of flying mimic octopi? Who needs pics of nudibranchs on top of seastars on top of soft coral?

There are fortunately also some good photo-pro's out there taking their time with marinelife and shooting more careful and more natural pictures. They proof that it IS possible to get nice pictures without having to harrass and handle marinelife.

:D

[JTDivers]

Not sure if you are still looking for one of these sticks, a local dive shop here in Sacramento has a dozen hanging on the wall ready for purchase. They are simple and inexpensive and very effective. I can forward the info to you if you need it, just let me know. The wife and I are each getting one after we returned from our trip to Fiji. They were used as tank bangers to get the groups attention. Nothing worked better for getting our attention. Not one time did we see them use it touching the reef, just tapping the tank.

Trevor

[CompuDude]

Not sure if you are still looking for one of these sticks, a local dive shop here in Sacramento has a dozen hanging on the wall ready for purchase. They are simple and inexpensive and very effective. I can forward the info to you if you need it, just let me know. The wife and I are each getting one after we returned from our trip to Fiji. They were used as tank bangers to get the groups attention. Nothing worked better for getting our attention. Not one time did we see them use it touching the reef, just tapping the tank.

Trevor

A friend from Thailand actually sent me a couple of the very ones I had been admiring, so I'm all set, but I wouldn't mind a PM of the shop's contact info just the same. Thanks. :)

[stiggy]

Glad you got your new pointy toy ....just use it wisely....:D

For those here that do however believe abuse of marine life on any level is acceptable with such a stick..

Leave nothing but bubbles .
Take nothing but pictures.
TOUCH NOTHING but your wallet when tipping good environmentally sound behavior from your guide !!

For the guy who reinvented the car Ariel sorry but thats an appalling attitude with regards to pulling garden eels etc.:no

Now where can i buy a pointy stick with a sharp end to poke at those that are poking the marine life....:D

[CompuDude]

Glad you got your new pointy toy ....just use it wisely....:D

I've used it a few times while DMing, and I love it. Good noise maker for getting student's attention, and great for pointing out small nudi's and such without your fingers getting in the way of the view.

I don't like carrying the extra stuff when I'm diving for me, and not students, so I leave it behind. Hands are full enough with the camera gear.

[jdfmail]

I was diving the other day and this idiot picked up some live rock and started to carry it around with him. This really bothered me so I was keeping an eye on him. Then...he starts smashing sea urchins. I pointed this out to the dive leader and he did nothing. Once topside I asked the leader to say something to him, he said he would but I don't think he did anything. I love Thailand but there is a place to confront people and tell them they are doing something wrong.

[D_Vince]

I have ones for sale that I used to make myself, but now get made locally,
Its the Pointer, shaker combined one (or one type anyway)
Let me know if it's interesting. I'll try and post a pic in a few Min.
Cheers

[D_Vince]

640 Stainless
Cost, 1,500 THB

http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/IMG_1552_Pointer.jpg

[CompuDude]

I have ones for sale that I used to make myself, but now get made locally,
Its the Pointer, shaker combined one (or one type anyway)
Let me know if it's interesting. I'll try and post a pic in a few Min.
Cheers

Quite possibly... post a pic and a price, and I'll bet you could sell a few! I know a few DM buddies who are interested after seeing mine.

Edit: Using THB30 to USD$1 as a base, USD$50 for a pointer is a bit steep, especially before shipping costs...

[D_Vince]

Sorry that you think it's too expensive but that's the retail price, based on a purchase of one by a customer walking in to my shop.
If you are a working DM or Inst, then its 1,000 THB.
Wholesale (to Dive shops) is cheaper yet.
Byers in Bulk lots get another price depending on amount, Logo Branding, shipping, Etc.

But if you think that is too much no problem, just don't buy it.

There is a Chinese copy for sale, just down the street from my shop, cost is 1,200 THB, (but comes with a little piece of string so you don't loose it too, mine doesn't).

Cheers
:)

[CompuDude]

It's beautiful work (and exactly what I was looking for initially), and if I didn't already have a similar one, I'd probably buy one. It's just a bit much to pick up extras. I'll mention it to my buddies though, in case they're interested.

[D_Vince]

It's beautiful work (and exactly what I was looking for initially), and if I didn't already have a similar one, I'd probably buy one. It's just a bit much to pick up extras. I'll mention it to my buddies though, in case they're interested.

Cheers,

BTW, I do agree with you on two points.
First they are expensive, but that's mostly the cost of the steel here, I can buy local steel a lot cheaper, but the Thai steel rusts after a while.

Second that the quality is good, I make sure that they are all made to the highest standards, anything that i would consider a "2nd" is not sold, I try my best to make sure that everything I do is guaranteed.