Q? Need ASAP, instructors or shop owners

Both my husband and I have all our scuba equipment, and have signed our son up for scuba classes.
they are charging 45.00 for the class
59.95 for the crew pack/video
18.00 for cert. card
90.00 plus for equipment rental
plus hitting most for the usual fins, snorkel boots,ect.
Now here is the question My son has all his snorkel equipment, we have all the last video tapes, and we have all the scuba equipment. we just recieved our own adv. padi cards which cost us nothing. The shop owner charged me 49.95 for just the book and log, and when I told him we would not be needing the rental equipment that he could use mine for class He told me insurance would not let him use my stuff without liabity papers from all my equipment companies, so I would have to pay the 90 dollars. My thought on this is, If something happened to my son due to faulty equipment, I could not go after the shop for anything because he is using our own equipment, so why would I need anything from the companies? He has his first water class tom. night and I need either some answers to this or info on where to get a waiver from the companies.Also why is there a $18 charge for his padi card when it cost us nothing to get ours? I will be checking this site all day looking for imput. Thanks in advance. We all know how much this sport can cost. If I have to put out another $100 I would rather it go towards equipment for him if he find this is a sport he wants to stay with.

This is a mess - because the shop isn't charging what they should for their services, and so are trying to make it up elsewhere - sort of...
1. Our shop, for example, requires each student to have their own textbook and workbook, to be marked up and have marginal notes made at their leisure - we don't require all family members to have their own video - one per family is enough. (we call the books only pack a "companion pack")
2. Looks like this shop is way undercharging for the class. Even with a full class of eight, ($360) an instructor will invest some 30 hours minimum in a typical class - after the shop's cut and all the taxes the business has to pay on the instructor's behalf, and liability insurance, he'll be working for minimum wage or less - hardly just compensation for a "professional."
3. Your advanced cards may not have been a line item on your invoice, but PADI got money for 'em from the shop, and you can bet the shop didn't just pull that money out of thin air - you paid for 'em.
4. The dealer didn't explain his liability very well, but he is liable for anything and everything bad that happens under his auspices, whether it is caused by equipment or not. Any competent lawyer would include the shop as a party to a suit involving equipment, regardless of who owns it. And even if no liability is eventually found, it still costs a fortune to defend. What we require at our shop, for example, is proof of current annual inspections and overhauls on the equipment - if the equipment isn't in our inspection cycle then we must inspect it (and charge you for that) before we'll allow its use under our supervision. To do anything less could be construed as negligent - so you can thank the trial lawyers directly for that one.
Rick

Cher, I think you are being ripped off royally. This shop is charging you for things that should be part of the course package. Go elsewhere.

The better shops charge a course fee for confined and open water training. This includes all course materials and the fee for the c-card (called a PIC envelope... more on this later). Course materials like textbooks should be included in the fee. If you already have access to the video, you shouldn't be required to rent or buy another video.

In most cases, shops do not charge for use of equipment during confined water. They either supply it for the student, or the student can supply their own. The only exception for this seems to be exposure protection, which most shops rent out separately.

During open water, however, the student must either have h/h own gear or rent it. This "liability issue" the shop owner is trying to throw out is pure bull; it's obviously just a way for him to justify forcing you to rent gear from him.

For open water training, the TRAINING itself is part of the package, but generally not the cost of the trip itself. So you may wind up paying for transportation, accommodations, meals, air fills, boat rides, etc. And gear, if you don't already have it.

Back to the c-card. PADI charges it's members for all materials. This includes the Positive Identification Card (PIC) envelope that is used to certify students at the completion of their course. Obviously, when you took your Advanced course, the cost of the PIC figured into the total cost of your course. So one way or another, you DO pay for registering your certification with PADI.

That being said, this fellow is trying to make up for his "lost leader" pricing on his course by nickel-and-diming you to death. (Actually, it's a lot MORE than just nickels & dimes! )

Again, look for someplace else for your sone to take his course. Check out Instructors/shops carefully. Get references from former students & follow up on them. In the end it's really not the MONEY that counts, but the QUALITY OF THE INSTRUCTION. The best is not always the cheapest.

Good luck!

~SubMariner~

I agree with Rick. Different shops do it differently and the guy you talked too was probably a bit confused about the equipment. I see no reason to require anything from the manufactors, current inspection/service yes, but anything more than that then he is just trying to make up for getting short-changed somewhere else. If you total it all up, then your're getting a pretty good deal in my opinion. Here's what my OW course cost me. $165 for all instruction and all gear (including masks, fins, & snorkel) during pool sessions. We weren't required to buy a video or a book. We watched the videos in class and the instructor provided the books. However, we were encouraged to purchase the books for future reference, which I didn't due to already having one, for $35 and most students did. $75 for gear rental for a weekend on the OW check-out dives. Everyone except 1 guy rented their gear from the shop. The one guy who didn't borrowed his from a friend, but this friend bought and had it regularly serviced by the same shop, so that's probably why he was allowed to do this. On top of that, our class choose to go the Panama City, FL for the OW check-outs. That cost another $300, $100 per night for lodging and $50 per day boat fee. Then we had tips, meals, and travel expense on top of that.

Cher,

As far as the total cost; I think you're getting a great deal, but I agree with others that it is presented very poorly. The only thing that bothered me was the blanket refusal to allow student to use their own equipment. At the shop I certified through, the policy was that you couldn't use your own equipment unless they were authorized retailer of the particular brand.

I paid $290.00 for my course and $30.00 for the "required" video. I don't mind because I have watched it so many times it's beginning to wear out.

The only additional costs I had were related to the OW weekend;

transportation $30.00 gas
air fills $15.00 for the weekend
park entrance $50.00 for 2 days
snacks and bottled water $15.00

That's about it. All in all I felt like it was fair. During the course of my instruction I suffered equalization problems on my third night of confined diving requiring 2weeks delay for meds to work. When I came back I joined a different class in progress for 2 nights before injuring my hand requiring a month to heal. I came back and joined yet another class in progress with a different instructor.

During all of this, I was never made to feel I was causing trouble for anyone, nor was I ever required to pay anything additional.

Hope this helps.

Jimbo

You must live in an area where there is more than one shop. I have watched shops use this tatic to lure newbies into the shop for the hard sell. You should've have asked "What's it gonna cost me to get certified, lock stock and barrel?"

Our shop chages $150.00 for the class, this includes gear rental, pic, air, use of books and photo. Videos are watched in class. Like above they urge you to purchase the crew pack for future reference, but that's their choice. Price also includes thermal protection if required. Only other expenses are gas to the pool and gas, food and accomidations at the lake. You can even use your own gear if you have it, but we check it out to make sure it's in good condition.

Here in the "Diving Mecca of the World" There are no less than 8 shops in Oklahoma City, that makes it a virtual buyers market. Every brand in within a 30 min drive. All but 2 offer Nitrox and ours is the only one with tri-mix capabilities. We have our own air station at the lake so fills and tanks are not a problem.

Hope some of this helps.

ID

Though it is confusing the way the pricing is being presented, shops have different ways of explaining costs. This shop may feel like it's being open with the customers by telling how much you're paying for each item rather than just presenting a total cost. I'm not sure I agree that this approach is wise for the shop owner. It causes customers to feel like they are being nickle-and-dimed for each item even when costs are low, but that's her/his choice.

In the end, you're getting a great deal as long as this isn't one of those notorious 3 day programs. To the shop's credit, they also explained all the costs requirements to you BEFORE the program started.

The equipment owned by the shop is covered under their liability insurance. Your stuff is not, therefore I think their claim is legitimate. As an independent instructor, I cannot even use my own gear for students unless it's covered separately from my regular insurance.

I agree they presented this awkwardly. There are a few fixed costs involved with scuba instruction, and surprisingly few shops consider charging enough to turn a profit on the course itself, instead of nickel and diming you with gear and rentals. Your course is way too cheap. You have to wonder what quality of course or instructor you are going to get. To give an example, here where I live I get $90 per student. After all the time I spend teaching the course (35-40 hours, often more), I might make 15 dollars an hour. With a full class (say, 10 students) that goes flawlessly and nobody lags (in my dreams), 20-25 is possible.

Your instructor is going to teach your son a fairly technical skill he'll be using the rest of your life. Find someone you like and pay them their fee. I don't think this shop is where you want to be.

What do you do for a living? Think of all the others doing the same thing for half the price. Are they providing the same quality service as you?

All of the above is of course, MHO, as usual.

Neil

I just paid $400.00 each for my 17 year old and my 13 year old. This included their book work, pool work and open water.
My husband thought $800.00 was crazy, but I kept saying it will last them a life time.
I do think it was a bit high.
:sunny:

In the UK, our HSE (health and safety inspectors) DEMAND that if you charge some-one for an entry level course, that ONLY your hire kit is used, and that each piece of kit is clearly identified, and that a complete service history exists for all gear.

Now, For advanced quals, this is not necessary, but all kit to be hired must have a full service history if you charge money for it.

Jon T