Chicken or egg...doubles or class?

[bwerb]

This is a purely speculative question. I am not personally planning on getting into doubles diving for some time, I'm just curious as to the progression states. Does a person typically put together a set of doubles and try them out on their own or does a person put a set together and take a class immediately?

I have been reading all the various threads on GUE Tech 1/IANTD/TEC REC etc. Every class requirement states that you need your own gear (and from everything I've read concerning the gear it seems to require a great deal of expertise to use). But then I look at the DIRF course which is a "pre-tech" course and it says doubles are ok...forgive me I'm just working through all the details...I assume this option is for people who already have some tech training and are wanting to improve on their basic skills with this set-up before advancing...yes?no?

Would someone who has never dove doubles before take DIRF in a single, then practice until the skills are really top notch, then go onto a Tech class and learn all about doubles as the next step?

Thanks in advance.

[Cave Diver]

I would recommend getting the doubles and practicing with them in confined water before taking any class. Most classes produce enough task loading as it is without having to fight with new equipment considerations as well.

In the DIRF class, you are allowed to use whatever tank configuration you want, but if you jump into it using doubles for the first time, you are asking for trouble (follow THIS LINK (http://www.scubaboard.com/t22200/s.html) see my DIRF report re: ED).

My understanding of the Tech1 or Cave1 course assumes a certain proficency with doubles already.

[bwerb]

Cave Diver once bubbled...
I would recommend getting the doubles and practicing with them in confined water before taking any class. Most classes produce enough task loading as it is without having to fight with new equipment considerations as well.

.

OK, so how would one know what they are doing on the new gear if they have not taken a class previously? I guess you could ask the shop for a one on one to go over any new product in confined water...am I warm?

[Cave Diver]

Well, for one, making sure that you are familiar with the equipment. How to set it up, how it works, etc.

Next is how it feels in the water. If you are ready for tech classes I would hope a rudimentary understanding of trim/balance and proper positioning in the water.

Depending on what size and type of double (AL vs Steel) they have different characteristics. If your gear is improperly positioned or configured you may find that you have tendency to "roll" and hard to maintain horizontal trim.

I wouldnt say that you need someone to instruct you in the use, tho it certainly wouldnt hurt. More important is for you to practice and make adjustments until the rig feels "right" to you.

It IS important to have a buddy with you that understands what you are doing and who can give you feedback on what he saw during the dive which will aid you in making those adjustments. Also, who will be nearby to help in case of any "issues" that may arise.

I strongly advocate checking out new gear in confined water until you are comfortable with it, and I try to avoid situations where both me and my buddy are in new configurations. On these "training" dives I prefer that the other person be in a familiar rig as it takes some of the variables out of the situation.

[MechDiver]

Afraid I would have to disagree with Cave Diver. I did about as opposite as you could do I guess and did not buy anything for the doubles class.

I did already have a bp&w that I was diving singles with, but I did not know if I really wanted to dive doubles, although I did want to see what they were all about. I found an instructor who supplied all the equipment I needed for the IANTD Deep diver and Adv. Nitrox classes and went from there.

To me, the classes exist to TEACH you HOW to dive this type of equipment. This is one area that I stronly disagree with the GUE philosophy, iin that, by some strange and wonderous process, you are supposed to know how to do everything before you take one of their classes.

Sure you can teach yourself how to dive doubles, but just as a lawyer is his own worst client, a student is his own worst teacher IMO.

MD

[vodolaz]

MechDiver once bubbled...
Sure you can teach yourself how to dive doubles, but just as a lawyer is his own worst client, a student is his own worst teacher IMO.

MD That may be true; I don't know. But I learned to use doubles on my own, and later took a DIR Fundamentals class without any criticism related to their use. Being already familiar with them allowed me to focus on the tasks at hand without having to "fight" my gear.

But that's just me. I guess it varies for individuals.

Guess I'll find out for sure in cave class if I should have done it the other way.

[Cave Diver]

MechDiver once bubbled...
To me, the classes exist to TEACH you HOW to dive this type of equipment. This is one area that I stronly disagree with the GUE philosophy, iin that, by some strange and wonderous process, you are supposed to know how to do everything before you take one of their classes.

Sure you can teach yourself how to dive doubles, but just as a lawyer is his own worst client, a student is his own worst teacher IMO.

MD

That's great if you have someone dedicated to spending some time with you to do that. But often, when you go into a class, they are going to assume you have some sort of proficiency and experience with the gear beforehand.

I personally prefer to do as much work on my own prior to class so that I am fully prepared when I get there. This lets you concentrate on the meat and potatoes of the course instead of focusing on the salad.

But as they say, "different strokes for different folks" (no pun intended).

[joens]

when I took my Deco Procedures course it was my first time in doubles .they were rented from the instructor .the first 3 dives were mainly getting used to them . I would have preferred to get at least a half dozen dives in with them before the class but none of the LDS near me do anything with doubles [the last time I had them filled the operator did not believe that you could fill both tanks from the one valve .we filled the "first tank " then he wanted to fill the other . ]in a perfect world you could rent several different double sets , steel,aluminium ,diferent sizes and find out what you like or what matches your style of diving then buy a set that is perfect for you then go take your classes totally comfortable with your gear and able to pay attention in class instead of getting used to gear.
Joens

[MechDiver]

Cave Diver once bubbled...

That's great if you have someone dedicated to spending some time with you to do that. But often, when you go into a class, they are going to assume you have some sort of proficiency and experience with the gear beforehand.


I agree with most of your statements, but, at least in the case of the deep diver class, the purpose is to teach you how to dive doubles in an extended range dive. That presupposes that you do not have experience with them. And it also gives you the chance to try that style of diving/equipment without a huge outlay in equipment that you may decide you can't/don't want to use.

You and joens both bring out good points; classes are generally easier if you are familiar with the equipment you will use. My IANTD instructor would not do a trimix class unless I owned all my own gear, and that is as it should be as it's too late to be dealing with equipment issues at that stage.

Contrary to joens' experience, I was using the same equipment during the deco class that I needed to do the deco class, so the two went hand in hand. I don't feel I lost anything buy not having doubles experience beforehand.

MD

[bwerb]

class would solve these problems...PADI Introduction to Doubles Diving;) ...Please read firmly with tongue in cheek.

Seriously though, an introductory class taught in an informal way would be of great benefit. Here are the gear variables, here's how to assemble and care for them. Now into the pool for a check-out on trim and buoyancy. Next a couple simple "training dives" in uncomplicated situations with close supervision. Nothing at all about the other tech info, just how to get a feel for the gear without the added task loading on one side or the pitfalls of self-discovered and ingrained bad habits from the start.

[wb416]

MechDiver once bubbled...

Sure you can teach yourself how to dive doubles, but just as a lawyer is his own worst client, a student is his own worst teacher IMO.

MD

It's not rocket science. I'd say that getting a chance to use something like heavy steel doubles before a class is a boon, not a bane. Just make sure it's a controlled environ. Don't think you're going to jump off on that 100' wreck for the first dive in your doubles.

The balance and inertia, not to mention getting to the water, is something better experienced prior to class. I for one don't want to chew up valuable class time getting used to my gear. I'd much rather be familar with it's characteristics, and then listen to the instructor for hints and tips.

If there's one thing that peeves me in a class, it's someone that didn't make the effort to research or try something out and now they are using up class time for the instructor to give remedial training.

MechDiver, I do think it's possible to "over-learn" bad habits prior to proper instruction (which I think speaks to your point), but I still think that it's good to practice a bit with the equipment first.

[MechDiver]

cwb once bubbled...


MechDiver, I do think it's possible to "over-learn" bad habits prior to proper instruction (which I think speaks to your point), but I still think that it's good to practice a bit with the equipment first.

I'm evidently not getting my point across. IF the purpose of the class is to teach you how to use some type of equipment, then what would be the purpose of making a substantial equipment purchase beforehand, that may or may not be correct (someone said stroke), so you can "practice" :confused:

Sure you can read up on what the class offers, what is expected, and what you want to get out of it, but spending upwards of $1500 on gear you may never use again doesn't make sense to me. (Cheap because I already had reg, bp)

MD

[vodolaz]

cwb once bubbled...
MechDiver, I do think it's possible to "over-learn" bad habits prior to proper instruction (which I think speaks to your point), but I still think that it's good to practice a bit with the equipment first. What are some of the bad habits?

[MechDiver]

vodolaz once bubbled...
What are some of the bad habits?

Cages, yokes, convoluted hose rigging, BWOD, excessive wing sizes, too small/too large tanks, weighting issues, 16 d-rings...

There are lots

[vodolaz]

MechDiver once bubbled...


Cages, yokes, convoluted hose rigging, BWOD, excessive wing sizes, too small/too large tanks, weighting issues, 16 d-rings...

There are lots Since I wasn't dinged in Fundamentals class on any of those you mentioned, I guess I can relax.

I thought maybe there were some bad trim habits or something I'd have to unlearn.

[Cave Diver]

MechDiver once bubbled...
I'm evidently not getting my point across. IF the purpose of the class is to teach you how to use some type of equipment, then what would be the purpose of making a substantial equipment purchase beforehand, that may or may not be correct (someone said stroke), so you can "practice" :confused:


I understand your point just fine, I just don't exactly agree with it.
So you dont want to spend a bunch of $$ on doubles to practice with, that is understandable. BUT there are alternatives.

As far as buying equipment beforehand, one of the things I do is communicate with my potential instructors exactly what gear I have and exactly what gear they require. Most of them will have any gear you need available for use/rent, so that will keep you from having to spend a lot of money on gear until you know exactly what it is you need or want.

As far as doubles go, there are alternatives. Buy just a set of bands if you want, and double up a pair of AL80's. You don't have to manifold them together in order to get used to the bouyancy characteristics of them. And I am pretty certain you can find two AL80's somewhere to rent/borrow. So all you would be out was the cost of the bands, and you can prolly Ebay them pretty easily if you decided doubles werent for you. If you can find some steel tanks to do this with, it's even better. I'm also not saying that you have to be 100% proficient with them. But a little familiarity goes a long way to keep you from floundering around while trying to learn other skills in a class setting. (plus it's not nearly as embarrassing that way)

Even if this isnt exactly the setup you will be using for your course, it will allow you to get some experience.

I also disagree with the statement about "if the purpose of the class is to teach you to use them." As I started getting into more advanced types of diving, it was pretty well expected that the student already have SOME familiarity with the equipment PRIOR to enrolling in the class. If not, expect to spend a few extra days and a few extra $$ while the instructor "babysits."

I can fully understand and sympathize with concerns about spending large amounts of cash to find out something isn't for you. I was fortunate in the fact that I was able to borrow a set of doubles to practice with prior to my cave class, and I was able to use that same set for my class. Believe me, it made a WORLD of difference.

Just keep in mind that there are alternatives to be found if you really want to.

But the most important thing to remember, is that what works for me, may not work for you. You have to do it the way that YOU feel comfortable.

[O-ring]

Diving with doubles is not that difficult and most of the guys I dive with feel they are more stable than singles. Ideally, you can find some people to dive with that are already using that type of setup and learn from them...that's what I did. I learned more from my technical buddies than I learned in any classes...they are an incredible resource if you are lucky enough to have them.

The danger in diving doubles, IMHO, is that you now have the capability to VASTLY overstay NDLs and rack up serious deco if you don't know what you are doing. I suppose false security could also be a danger...i.e. "Oh, now I have redundancy and I can penetrate this wreck, cave, etc." without having the proper training and practice/experience.

[Cave Diver]

Very good points O-ring.

[MechDiver]

vodolaz once bubbled...
Since I wasn't dinged in Fundamentals class on any of those you mentioned, I guess I can relax.

I thought maybe there were some bad trim habits or something I'd have to unlearn.

You being in the Fundamentals and all, they probably didn't want to hurt your feelings. Once you get into the *real* stuff, they'll most likely get you squared away.

Have a good day.

[MechDiver]

Cave Diver once bubbled...


I understand your point just fine, I just don't exactly agree with it.
So you dont want to spend a bunch of $$ on doubles to practice with, that is understandable. BUT there are alternatives.


We're both talking apples, but there is an orange getting in the way somewhere.

I conceed de feet.

[Munin]

If I wanted to learn to dive doubles here's what I'd do:

First I'd buy my own set of the appropriate tanks, BP&W, etc.; for me that would be doubles 80s (DIR for non-cave). I'd get a couple dozen dives in to get a feel for them, take care of weighting issues, get trimmed out, practice valve manipulation, etc. Then I'd take a DIR-F class (You could take something else, if you prefer. That's just what I'd do.) to get an instructor's opinion and assistance with any issues diving them, learn to do a proper valve drill and flowcheck so I don't develop any bad habits, and for the other material in DIR-F. Then I'd go out and dive them a few dozen times until my trim, weighting, buoyancy, etc. is spot on and I'm comfortable doing valve drills.

Then I'd take a RecTriox course (insert equivalent), which is designed to introduce valve/manifold failures and the proper DIR procedure for dealing with them. This is the most important part of diving doubles, IMO. A manifold can get you in a lot of trouble if you take the shotgun approach to dealing with drills and real failures.

Then I'd take Cave1/Tech1/whatever if that was my goal.

Whatever you do, learn to do an proper flowcheck and valve drill and how to handle failures intelligently.

[Cave Diver]

Sounds like a sensible approach Munin.

Keep in mind you can always use the tanks as independent singles if the need arises.

[O-ring]

I would go find some people that do that type of diving and make them your permanent buddies. I have found that in everything I do it does not pay to play with people your own skill level or lower. Not that you shouldn't dive with people that fit that category, but you will progress a lot more as a diver if you dive with people better/more experienced than you that are doing the types of diving you want to progress into.

I have found this works for every sport I do...diving, mountain biking, snowboarding, etc.. Diving/riding with people better than me, although somewhat humbling, does wonders to improve your own expertise and will keep you pushing yourself.

Take a snowboarding parallel...if you ride with someone less skilled than you, you will probably be content to putter around on the greens with them and eventually make it to some blues. Maybe you will even progress beyond that in a couple seasons. But, go ride with your friend who is really good, let's call him Jeff. Then you will be like, "Man...I really wish I could ride double blacks like Jeff..." And Jeff will be like, "dude, you could totally ride at least a black", etc. Before you know it, you are on those double blacks and there's no stopping you.

[vodolaz]

MechDiver once bubbled...


You being in the Fundamentals and all, they probably didn't want to hurt your feelings. Once you get into the *real* stuff, they'll most likely get you squared away.

Have a good day. No doubt on the second point. But it seems whatever mistakes I made in learning to use doubles alone were insignificant enough to ignore until the *real* training begins. That's kinda what this thread was originally about, right?

I don't mean to come across as a newbie know-it-all. Sorry if I did.

[wb416]

MechDiver once bubbled...


I'm evidently not getting my point across. IF the purpose of the class is to teach you how to use some type of equipment, then what would be the purpose of making a substantial equipment purchase beforehand, that may or may not be correct (someone said stroke), so you can "practice" :confused:

Sure you can read up on what the class offers, what is expected, and what you want to get out of it, but spending upwards of $1500 on gear you may never use again doesn't make sense to me. (Cheap because I already had reg, bp)

MD

It would not be prudent to purchase equipment for a class if you haven't consulted with the instructor first. However, that's a given in my book.

[MechDiver]

vodolaz once bubbled...
No doubt on the second point. But it seems whatever mistakes I made in learning to use doubles alone were insignificant enough to ignore until the *real* training begins. That's kinda what this thread was originally about, right?

I don't mean to come across as a newbie know-it-all. Sorry if I did.

I *should* have used a "tongue in cheek" symbol (do we have that??) after my post. I had no intentions to label you as anything.

You guys are way too serious about this stuff sometimes.

MD