Equipment Help!

[Cando]

Hi

Just wondering if anyone has any advice for someone like me who is looking to buy new equipment.....

1) On-line stores like Leisurepro.com have really low prices on almost all products, but do not provide a manufacturers warranty (only an in-store warranty)which means i won't get free parts when servicing my reg annualy. My question is....how much does it usually cost to service a scubapro reg lets say and pay for the parts? Would I be better off paying double the price and buying it a my LDS? Seems like alot to pay for free parts every year. Anyone buy equipment from leisurepro? If so what do you think?

2) I'm looking at the Scubapro Classic Plus BCD. I travel alot to tropical climates but I would also like to start diving alot more locally. Would you recomend this BC for lake diving as well as tropical diving. I always dive within rec limits so I won't be doing any tech diving. Should i go with the Classic sport (a little lighter and more streamlined but less lift capacity)? Anyone have any experience with these BC's?

Thanks alot for your help!

[taz22]

Cando once bubbled...
Hi

Just wondering if anyone has any advice for someone like me who is looking to buy new equipment.....

Would I be better off paying double the price and buying it a my LDS? Seems like alot to pay for free parts every year.



I have two things to mention in regards to your post:

1) I have at times purchased things such as fins and masks on the internet, but when it comes to tanks, reg's and bc's I purchase these at my LDS. This way it allows me to make sure I get the right fit and I am comfortable with it.

2) If we don't support our LDS they could go out of business. To this day, I have found it impossible to purchase "AIR" on the internet.

Hope you find the right gear for you. Have fun!!

Cheers!!

[Hallmac]

Follow this link and put your name on it. ask your friends to do the same.

Stop the manufactures from price fixing and you can buy everything from your local dive shop!

Petition (http://diversunion.org/)

Hallmac

[ElectricZombie]

Cando once bubbled...
[B]Hi

Just wondering if anyone has any advice for someone like me who is looking to buy new equipment.....

1) On-line stores like Leisurepro.com have really low prices on almost all products, but do not provide a manufacturers warranty (only an in-store warranty)which means i won't get free parts when servicing my reg annualy. My question is....how much does it usually cost to service a scubapro reg lets say and pay for the parts? Would I be better off paying double the price and buying it a my LDS? Seems like alot to pay for free parts every year. Anyone buy equipment from leisurepro? If so what do you think?


It depends. If you plan to service your reg every year, then the extra price for the warranty is worth it. To service a 1st stage and two 2nd stages with no warranty, you are looking at about $80.00 just for parts. Add about $60.00 for labor and you're up to $140.00. $140.00 vs. $60.00. Again, depends on how often you plan to service and how long you plan to use this set of gear. ScubaPro makes a great reg. The Mk25 and Mk16 are great 1st stages. The S600, G250, and S550 are great primaries. The R380 and R190 are good choices for a backup reg.



2) I'm looking at the Scubapro Classic Plus BCD. I travel alot to tropical climates but I would also like to start diving alot more locally. Would you recomend this BC for lake diving as well as tropical diving. I always dive within rec limits so I won't be doing any tech diving. Should i go with the Classic sport (a little lighter and more streamlined but less lift capacity)? Anyone have any experience with these BC's?


I recommend a Backplate and Wing.

Very durable, streamlined, efficient and packs tiny. Do and search for "Backplate", "BP", "Wing" or "DIR" to see what I'm talking about.

[seahunter]

I agree with Hallmac that anybody should be able to buy scuba gear at wholesale prices and sell from a store, basement or back of his car anywhere for any amount he likes even at a loss without any accountability to the divers or manufacturers!
Furthermore any bimbo should be able to take a Scuba Gear Course, hang up a certificate and charge you to service your gear if you don't want to do it. He should not have to be accountable to the manufacturer, to you, to any agency or government body nor does he have to have any liability insurance. If you croak an a dive after servicing your own gear or getting said bimbo to do it, you cannot blame anyone else and don't bring it back!

Sorry Hallmac but you've no idea what is required to run a successful scuba business. Otherwise you'd realize the absolute folly of your petition.

In Canada we do not have price guidelines from the manufacturer and it's a damn mess. Ask any store owner in Ottawa. You cannot go to a single store in Canada and buy the gear you want because the store owner will not stock lines that do not afford him the profit margin to stay in business.

Hell if I wanted to make some quick money I'd buy a bunch of gear and sell it for a marginal profit and then disappear - no promises, no service, no compressor, no air fills, no training, no dives, no special events for the divers, no ads, no web site, no parts stock, nothing - just a pocket full of cash and the divers go jump!
I can do it too! Shall I add you to my mailing list so you get notice?

[seahunter]

Sorry to jump on you so hard Hallmac. It was 5 am when I saw your post. I hear this type of discussion all the time and it really does hurt me personally and doesn't help the industry one bit. It seems to be a real bug-a-boo for y'all down there more than Canadians.

The manufacturers do not 'set' prices. They determine their production costs and then add the required mark-up so they stay in business (usually 20 - 40%) and that is their dealer price (wholesale price).
Why shouldn't the dive store owner be able to employ the same sound business practice?
That is, determine how much mark-up will allow them to stock, sell and service that product and add that to the dealer price. Usually in all specialty leisure industries for a full service retailer that mark-up is 100%. Realize that the overhead for a retailer is many times more than for a manufacturer. In some industries, retailer mark-up is much higher than that. When is the last time you purchased a ring or earings for your partner? Mark-up in that business is closer to 300% (now you know why they can give such a 'deal'). Same goes for furniture, clothing, auto accessories, etc. (ever see a furniture advert offering 70% off? And he's still in business!) Another difference is that once you've got your scuba gear, there's no need to spend more other than for service. It's usually a one time buy. The scuba retailer has no likelihood of selling you the same product again as would happen in many other retail businesses.

Anyway, if the dealer does not get enough of a mark-up, he will simply sell-off the remaining gear and change lines. No one wins in that situation because now the manufacturer has to find another dealer to carry his gear. There is an immediate loss of income for him which adds to his cost which must be recovered in his wholesale price PLUS the divers do not have a reliable source for the product, service or warrantee. The few divers who got a good 'deal' now can't get service, parts, or warrantee. The reason for the dealers having price guidlines is to ensure their product does not suffer that fate from the actions of a few fly-by-nighters. Generally the manufacturer will try to have his dealers agree and then work together to ensure fair, adequate retail prices. Everybody wins - the manufacturer has a reliable, long-time dealer, the dealer can stay in business and offer all the additional things that a good scuba store should (see my prior post), the diver is assured reliable service and consistant, fair pricing.
The price guidleines are NOT there to gouge the diver. The diver is going to pay for all the costs of doing business anyway. That's how it should be - he's the end user, the one having fun, the one getting the benefits of the research, production and distribution, etc. Neither the manufacturer or the dealer are there to enjoy themselves - it's their business.
What keeps the prices reasonable? First find me a dive shop owner who's become a millionaire and retired early! Second realize that each dealer is dependent on the return business of the divers. The dealer must make enough to stay in business and keep offering all his services to the diver and also remain competitive not only with other dive stores but also with all the other leisure industry businesses that are trying daily to take the diver's money. Trust me after 30 years in the scuba business - it ain't a cake walk. In fact, it's a daily tightrope act just to survive.
Even more so today with the internet!

Like it or not YOU are in partnership with the dealer and manufacturer. If you don't come to the dive store and pay for the services and products which reimburse the dealer, he won't buy from the manufacturer. Soon you'll have no dealer AND no manufacturer. The manufacturer is also very concerned with your wants and needs and he works with the dealer to ensure the product is good, well-serviced and guaranteed, suits the divers needs AND is priced to be competitive and affordable for the diver while returning sufficient to allow the continued production and retailing.
However, in this partnership, your LDS is the hardest working and least appreciated. Hell, the manfuacturer does squat! He finds (on the internet) a supplier of masks in the Orient, works a deal with him, imports them and sells them to the dealer. Whoop-dee-doo!! Any idiot with a bit of money can do that! Sometimes the manufacturer is so smooth that he finds the product and orders it, then he sells the product to the retailer before it arrives, maybe even gets paid in advance (for a small discount) and has it shipped direct to the dealer. He doesn't even see or touch the damn mask!! I'm actually envious. He has no overhead, no staff, no wearhouse, no insurance, nothing!
The poor retailer is trying to stay in business so he falls for this. He agrees to buy the new product because the divers will pay a reasonable price for it, he pays for it in advance, he pays for shipping, he displays it in his store (rent, heat, hydro, advertising, fixtures, staff), trys to sell it in competition with all the other products and make enough so he can feed his family, keep his compressor running, rent the local pool, pay the instructors, make a deposit for the trip you're going on with the store and so on endlessly. Then he finds that some diver/ hobbyist is selling the same product out of his van for 25% less! Or another store can't pay the rent and needs to cash in some of his stock! Now what does he do??
Right!! Gives up and goes into the computer business. And of course, you and all the other divers ***** about the fact that he closed the store up on you!!
The $20-$30-$40 that you saved by buying from the discounter or "your friend in the business" can be a very costly saving.

I started this reply as an apology for my brusqeness in the earlier post and now I'm just as bad. Obviously this kind of action by the divers hurts me personally. It's bad enough that you don't support your LDS for some reason - don't take active steps to put him out of business. Remember that the diver is the recipient of everything done in the scuba business. If you harm the system, you get hurt.
However you can affect the system positively. Why not work with your LDS as a group and see if he can offer discounts for group sales? Does he give a discount for cash? Do single diver large purchases warrant another discount?
Rather than spend your time and talent beating up your partners, work with them.

[Butch103]

Unless I misread Hallmac's post and the petition.....He agrees with you . From my understanding in the states the prices are basically dictated +/- 10 % not much room to manoevre, as opposed to Canada where they can only provide a suggested retail... Am I right or wrong?...The manufacturers can and will dictate the min starting and follow-up orders. I think this is the norm in retail (It is with giftware at least)....

The intent of the petition is to remove (in the US at least) the demand from the manufacturer to sell the product at their suggested price and to limit which other manufacturers you can carry in your shop.....

I know Seahunter ( perhaps I don't really know, however I assume)you as a business owner do not want any of your suppliers telling you how to run your business. You are bang-on in saying that you can deep discount, sell lots and run, but that is not the reason you are in business (again I make an assumption).

I know I am on your side, in that I buy from my LDS even though I can get the product cheaper on-line.....but I cannot get service on-line, I cannot drop in and chat with the instructor, on-line, I cannot try on my gear, on-line, and most importantly I cannot get tanks filled, on-line....... These are just some of the things I really need from my LDS.....

[pufferfish]

Seahunter if you read the FAQs on the petition web site I think you are on the same side of the coin as Hallmack,....must have been the 5am reading. I didn't have time to read it all but it appears the manufacturers in the States are telling you the LDS what you can charge your customers. If prices are MSRP plus or minus ten percent only, it is more likely people will go to LeisurePro and be upset with LDS pricing. They blame the LDS for high prices when the problem is with the manufacturer. The LDS has his hands tied. The petition is to cut these ropes.

My understanding and I may be wrong is the petition is asking for the LDS's right to choose what price they sell gear for, not be dictated to by the manufacturer. The dive shop customer is on your side and it is the manufacturer who is the "millionaire" and retiring early at the expense of the LDS. Let's be thankful here in Canada there doesn't seem to be this price fixing seen south of the border.

[pufferfish]

Seahunter,

The person who put many hours into this petition is Genesis on this board, an ex CEO of some company. Have a look at his tag line, "Bringing fire to those who would stifle free markets". Sounds like something I would hear on an S2K board,ha,ha.

There is a "price-restraint policy" used by many of the manufacturers in the States and this is what the petition is against.

Have a look at this thread for some more insight.

Do we support price-restraints or free markets?

Petition thread (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21110&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=1)

[normoxic]

Hello SeaHunter

I was wondering what your thoughts were on distributors in Ontario who only allow certain dive shops in certain locations to sell there products. I would think in this economy distributors like Diversco would allow any one to sell there products regardless if there down the road from another dive shop. Why in the states can you have 10 dive shops side by side selling the same line and they all make money but in Canada its a big deal. I would think for a distributor the idea is to sell sell sell and get your product out before you go out of business your self.

Cheers

Normoxic

[sparky30]

Cando once bubbled...
Hi

Just wondering if anyone has any advice for someone like me who is looking to buy new equipment.....

1) On-line stores like Leisurepro.com have really low prices on almost all products, but do not provide a manufacturers warranty (only an in-store warranty)which means i won't get free parts when servicing my reg annualy. My question is....how much does it usually cost to service a scubapro reg lets say and pay for the parts? Would I be better off paying double the price and buying it a my LDS? Seems like alot to pay for free parts every year. Anyone buy equipment from leisurepro? If so what do you think?

2) I'm looking at the Scubapro Classic Plus BCD. I travel alot to tropical climates but I would also like to start diving alot more locally. Would you recomend this BC for lake diving as well as tropical diving. I always dive within rec limits so I won't be doing any tech diving. Should i go with the Classic sport (a little lighter and more streamlined but less lift capacity)? Anyone have any experience with these BC's?

Thanks alot for your help!

I would get my stuff from an LDS.. The reason is simple.. support and a chance to try things out before you buy them. I have several ScubaPro regs and their warranty is pretty good..I'd recommend them.. They also breathe awesome..

As for a BCD, I only own one.. And I baught it right before my Open Water certification.. LOL.. Its a DiveRite TransPacII.. Very comfy, ultra adjustable and expandable. You can set it up the way you like it.. with or without integrated weights, or pockets or whatever.. Its really easy to dive with and it has a nice open feeling.. It can also handle doubles.. I know you are not doing technical stuff. neither am I.. but double tanks are handy when you are doing long shallow dives or just as a safety feature..
The TransPac accomodates both.. you can change back and forth in 3 minutes.. Very cool.

[seahunter]

OK! OK! I'll go back and read the entire petition!!

If I've jumped all over hallmac by mistake I certainly apologize.

The manufacturers do have control ovr the retail prices in the US to some extent. They definately have control over who may sell their product line both in the US and here. They don't dictate what other lines you can or cannot have directly. They can however deny their line to your store for any reason they so choose. That aspect anyway I think is good.

If I'm trying to build a good scuba business and work hard to represent a fine line of scuba gear for several years, I don't want a dive shop opening next door with the same lines. It's usually in the first couple of years (5?) that an owner feels the need to discount. If he does, then my efforts to have a good store for the divers are wasted. The new store will close anyway (if he discounts) and my business is hurt too in the interim. I may decide to stop carrying the line so now the manufacturer is hurt AND the divers who have that gear are also PO'd.

Most manufacturers want stores who carry their line to be legitimate businesses with an investment and a plan. Besides, there are lots of lines for stores to choose from. What's the advantage to having several stores in close proximity carrying the same line? It's to the divers advantage if they each have different lines. That way you can compare the different brands easily and buy what best suits you.

Normoxic - Where in the US are there several stores in one locality that carry the same brands and are doing well? First the scuba business in Canada is doing very well for the stores that are businesslike. The US is slow right now in every industry. Allowing every store to carry every line will certainly lead to problems and particularly in the US. You seldom find a Ford dealer next door to a Ford dealer or a MacDonalds close to another MacDonalds. Simple business sense.
If every store has the same lines, the only way to increase your market share is to lower prices until the diver buys from you.
I find it really amusing when a store owner brags that he sells more of an item than I do. I could sell more too if I dropped my prices. It's not units sold that matter - it's return! He may sell more than I do BUT I make a higher return on the ones I do sell and I put more in the bank!! Who's the better retailer? Any bimbo can drop the price to sell something. Hell I can afford to give stuff away - does that make me a better businessman or dive store owner? And does the diver win? We've been through that and the answer is no!! Save a few dollars on the purchase and then spend twice your savings trying to find good service or shipping the item back and forth to the supplier for warranty. Not to mention all the other services a good dive store provides.
I've had the privelege over the years of selling every brand name out there and a lot that no longer exist. I was at one time one of the biggest retailers in the GTA of Dacor, Mares, USD (don't tell anyone!), Seaquest, Poseidon, ProSub, Oceanic, Sherwood, Genesis, TUSA plus Healthways, Voit, Farallon, Tekna, Seatec all of which are no longer in business.
Today, I can meet the needs of our customers with 3 very diverse major brands and another couple of smaller ones. The advantage is that I can carry more stock, offer better pricing, keep more parts on hand, provide more professional service, have more knowledgeable staff and I have less problems with other store owners. All these advantages BTW are to the divers benefit!!
It seems you think the suppliers are evil! If Diversco is not selling to a dive store, it's almost certainly because the local dive community is already well served by a Diversco dealer. Why would they upset an established dealer and subsequently irritate the divers by giving a new dealer with no track record and dubious intentions their products? Who wins??
If we assume that both the manufacturer and the store owner plan to build a good, long-term business then most of the policies are beneficial to that aim and to the divers interest. It does not benefit the diver when either goes out of business.

I am an outspoken advocate of a free market and will not deal with suppliers who tell me how to run my business!! That certainly includes price restraints.
On the other hand I do want to protect my investment and, while I welcome and actually assist other store owners to open and get started even if close to me, I cannot allow their policies or problems to adversely affect me. Am I wrong??

[weight_for_me]

Butch103 once bubbled...
but I cannot get service on-line, I cannot drop in and chat with the instructor, on-line, I cannot try on my gear, on-line, and most importantly I cannot get tanks filled, on-line....... These are just some of the things I really need from my LDS.....

I agree...and I think that we both realize how important it is to support your local business, especially in a small town environment. Unfortunately, that mindset seems to get lost when you are in "the city".
Randy...

[Butch103]

I must agree with many of your points in your last post.

I personally don't think the intent of the petition to to force the suppliers to allow anyone to sell their gear, in other words allow your brand new neighbour scuba shop to sell the same gear as your own shop. "Protected" is a good/bad policy. (depending on if you have the line or not :D )...

I think the intent is to stop the suppliers/manufacturers from again dictating the prices and policies of the store.

I too believe you get what you pay for, and if you and your competitor sell the same line of gear and he/she discounts it, yes your are bang on, he will likely be out of business sooner.

Service is a better money maker than product. It may not have any input cost to start.........

[Cando]

Thanks for all your advice...

I ended up going to my LDS and basically telling them that I could get the items i wanted at a much lower price, so they put togehter a package of exactly what I wanted and basically matched the price of the online store plus 150$ (but that was in taxes so i dont mind)

This is what I got.....great deal!!

Scubapro MK25/S600
Scubapro R380 Octopus
Suunto SM16 and SM36 (depth and pressure console)

All for 1150$ including taxes!! Not bad considering it would have cost me around 1600$ including taxes if i had paid full price. On-line stores were selling for 1000$ including taxes, shipping etc....but like you all said, I'd rather support my local LDS and its not their fault we have such ****ty taxes up here!!! :)

Thanks again!

[weight_for_me]

Nice work Cando....the first time you have a question (or problem heaven forbid) you will be glad that you bought from your LDS.
Randy...