PADI Poll

[divedude]

Reading through posts on this board PADI gets trashed a lot.
So...... I was wondering and "please be honest" how many of you who are now hard core "Techies" started out diving with PADI or NAUI I know you all started somewhere.

[100days-a-year]

My first cert was PADI.I had been diving for at least 12 yrs prior without ever getting checked.To this day still haven't.

[WreckWriter]

NASDS Basic, 1973

WW

[divedude]

I should have put ""Born a Techie! Never been a Newbie"
since we all are sport divers
Except guys like "pipe dope"


Title changed as requested by Divedude --- DivingGal

[Amphibious]

Started as a BSAC Novice Diver in '94

Went NAUI in '96

Still NAUI in '03

Willer

[JeffAustin]

Original cert: NAUI in 1972.

[caveseeker7]

DIWA - Diving Instructor World Association 1983 ;)

Got a PADI card sometime in the 90s because it's widely spread. :eek:

Went NAUI/ANDI/IANTD since. :)

[AquaTec]

i dove for about 15 years before being certified..then i was certified by PADI

[divedude]

So why does PADI get trashed so much, if most people were introduced to this great sport by them :confused:

[diveaustin]

I WAS EXPOSED (SOUNDS LIKE A CHEMICAL PROBLEM) BY MY WIFE ACTUALLY. I OWE HER EVERYTHING. IN BOTH THE ASPECT OF DIVING AND BEYOND. SHE JUST HAPPENED TO BE WITH PADI. I HAVE MY HANGUPS WITH PADI.....WHO CARES THOUGH AS LONG AS IM DIVING.:mean:

[DiveTub]

divedude once bubbled...
So why does PADI get trashed so much, if most people were introduced to this great sport by them :confused:

It's called "Tall Poppy Syndrome", the biggest is always the first to be knocked down

As long as you have the theory and skills to saftely conducted the planned dive, cares what agency you are certified with
:confused:

[ColdH20diving]

Started out my open water and continued thru to my divemaster with PADI. I plan on taking additional PADI courses. I don't know why some of the people on this board are bashing PADI. It must be the "in" thing to do now.

[MgicTwnger]

I was originally certified by the Y in (gasp!) '68, re-certified by PADI a couple of years ago. I've also done AOW and a couple of specialty courses with PADI because my instructor is great, and PADI is the only show in town here in the middle of corn country.

[detroit diver]

divedude once bubbled...
So why does PADI get trashed so much, if most people were introduced to this great sport by them :confused:

Because successful marketing does not mean quality education.

[Walter]

"So why does PADI get trashed so much, if most people were introduced to this great sport by them"

You can certify the most divers if quality is not a major concern. If "As many as possible, as quickly as possible" is your theme, you'll certify more divers. You can do this to a degree with any agency and there are instructors from all agencies who reject the concept. OTOH, PADI's standards make it very easy for instructors to take this approach without violating standards. PADI gets trashed, from time to time, by people who care about quality training. People who see the poor quality of most PADI divers and associate it with the agency. They then express their opinions. There are excellent PADI instructors, but they are the ones who exceed standards.

[mikeh]

divedude once bubbled...
So why does PADI get trashed so much, if most people were introduced to this great sport by them :confused:

While I'm new to diving, this phenomenon is not limited to diving by any means. To mass produce anything requires standardization. To expand production beyond a certain level, one must accept a certain percentage of substandard product will make it out the door. After that, it is simple math. Intel plans chips with a failure rate of <2%. Two percent of 100 means only 2. When its 2% of 10 million....well, you get the idea.

Mass production of education along with speed of communication results in a poorer grade of service. If you disbelieve this, run a spellchecker through this board.

[raybo]

mikeh once bubbled....

Mass production of education along with speed of communication results in a poorer grade of service. If you disbelieve this, run a spellchecker through this board.

Y in '72, PADI O/W in '90, working through several PADI specialties now toward Master, which really doesn't seem to mean anything, but I'm getting what I wasnt out of the specialties, and it was a "package" deal with my LDS & instructor.

Looking to do DIR-F if I can get there over Easter weekend, and maybe IANTD advanced nitrox/deco later this spring or summer. Don't know how the family will take it, but would like to do cavern/cave and wreck training, but will have to travel for that. Won't be PADI.

Part of the reason PADI gets trashed so much is because anybody that either got certs in the early '70's or earlier, or has since taken a more advanced course via a more "technical" agency realizes that they hardly scratch the surface in PADI O/W. That's been my biggest dissapointment with them. Not that it was "bad", I just didn't find it to be very comprehensive &/or in depth.

Basically, I think the PADI courses are way too easy.

[Cave Diver]

I was certified BOW through PADI.

Did my IANTD Nitrox and PADI AOW shortly thereafter.

Completed PADI Rescue a few months after that.

Eventually did NACD Full Cave.

Did a GUE DIRF class.

Most recently did IANTD Deep Diver and Advanced Nitrox.

Have a NAUI Trimix class scheduled in a few more months.

Also currently working on PADI DM class, and considering instructor training. If I do decide to go that route, I will likely cross over to IANTD at a later date.

I have had a pretty good mix of classes from different agencies and instructors. My BOW instructor was very passionate about the sport, and that influenced me a lot to further my training and education. He's still one of my regular dive buddies to this day and we've done numerous trips together.

I think it's a lot more the instructor (and student) than the agency.

There are some great PADI instructors out there. But they are kinda like airplane crashes. You only hear about the bad ones, not all the ones that happen safely every day.

[luvdiving]

I was diving for over a year before I caught the PADI class. In the old days (Ha), you could buy everything from the PX without a C card.

After I had the class and learned things like tables and depth limits, I got a little scared. If I had it to do over, I WOULD NOT do it the same.:boom:

[Bren Tierney]

I guess I'm like a number of others here: I came up the PADI route (OW, AOW, Rescue, DM etc.) initially and then swapped to an organisation that better suited my diving needs and aspirations - TDI, which, incedently, I've found provides a better all round 'capability' for diving in UK conditions (temp, viz etc.).

What I will say (and NOT wanting to start a flame war here) is that, ironically, neither PADI, BSAC et al wanted anything to do with Nitrox (let alone other exotic mixes) when it was 1st introduced. Now that they can see a market for it they're in like Flynn - not surprisingly.

And aren't we missing something important in this inter-agency review? I don't know whether it's already been mooted (apologies if it has), but the diver training agency is NOT important (as long as it's a recognised body): the most important thing in teaching a diver good and safe diving practises (be that recreational or technical) is the Instructor in question.

Dive safe all - always.

[Bren Tierney]

Cave Diver once bubbled...
But they are kinda like airplane crashes. You only hear about the bad ones........

What? There are good ones? :D

[icediver]

I started with PADI. I remain with PADI.
Here is a new concept, why not bash the INSTRUCTORS that are doing the poor job.
PADI trains them, they don't do the teaching
for them.

Terry;-0

[Walter]

Terry,

I agree with your basic idea. If instructors aren't meeting standards, it should be pointed out. The agency should take action to correct the situation.

OTOH, what about those instructors who are following standards, yet still do a poor job? That is the fault of the agency. If instructors are following standards, they are not at fault for the poor quality of their classes.

[icediver]

Again my issue is with Instructors.
Be it an OWSI or a COURSE DIRECTOR.
These are the people producing the Instructors.
Then you have the EXAMINERS that pass the Instructors.
If any of these links are weak, the end result is a weak Instructor.
When it comes to Recreational diving I don't think you
can complain about PADI. The Instructors is a different issue.

Terry:D

[Walter]

Terry,

What is your opinion about those instructors who are following standards, yet still do a poor job?

[icediver]

I would have to say that they don't have a passion
for what they are doing. If you have a passion for teaching you would always want to better yourself.
This would be done by advancing your own skill level.

If you do not have a passion for teaching, get out of the industry before you get someone killed!

Terry:doctor:

[Walter]

If passion is the dertermining factor, there's a BIG problem with that agency's standards.

[icediver]

How did you come up with some one having passion for what they are teaching, and standards.

Standards don't make you a good Instructor.
You show me the best standards for any industry, and I'll show you some one that doesn't follow them.

Again it all comes back to INSTRUCTORS.

Tell me I am wrong!

Terry

[Walter]

Terry,

You are right, if an instructor isn't following standards, the he is at fault for doing a poor job.

You are wrong, when an instructor is following standards and is doing a poor job, the agency is at fault.

There are good and bad instructors, but there are also good and bad agencies. If an agency has standards that do not require all that is necessary to produce competent, safe divers, then that agency is at fault for not having adequate standards.

[icediver]

So I guess what you are saying is there is no such thing as a good Instructor. Because there is no perfect set of standards.

So how is it that there are all these divers.

Terry

[Bob3]

I learned to dive by watching SEAHUNT on tv, followed up with buying my tank BP & reg from a Sears & Roebuck catalog. I still remember the semi pulling up & the only thing in the back was my gear. The tank came filled.
I did take the first dive class that was held in the area some years later (YMCA).
It was a good class, everybody in it had been diving for a while (including the local dive shop owner).
I still use my original c-card, what's left of it. It makes for a good conversation starter in shops or other places that need to see 'em.

[divedude]

Bob3 once bubbled...
I learned to dive by watching SEAHUNT on tv, followed up with buying my tank BP & reg from a Sears & Roebuck catalog. I still remember the semi pulling up & the only thing in the back was my gear. The tank came filled.
I did take the first dive class that was held in the area some years later (YMCA).
It was a good class, everybody in it had been diving for a while (including the local dive shop owner).
I still use my original c-card, what's left of it. It makes for a good conversation starter in shops or other places that need to see 'em.

Bet you wish now you had taken better care of it:(

So I take it you went with "Other" in the poll :D

[Walter]

"So I guess what you are saying is there is no such thing as a good Instructor. Because there is no perfect set of standards."

That's not even close to what I said.

I agree there is no perfect set of standards. OTOH, some are excellent, although not perfect. With excellent standards, you can follow the standards without exceeding them and produce competent, safe divers. Others agencies have less than excellent standards. Following those standards without exceeding them produces less than competent, and safe divers.

I'm also aware that there are instructors from all agencies who plan to exceed standards in all their courses. These instructors are usually excellent.

So you have 6 different types of situations

1. Instructor from agency with low standards. Instructor fails to meet standards.

Results: Poor course from a poor instructor.

To blame: Instructor

2. Instructor from agency with high standards. Instructor fails to meet standards.

Results: Poor course from a poor instructor.

To blame: Instructor

3. Instructor from agency with low standards. Instructor meets, but does not exceed standards.

Results: Poor course from a poor instructor.

To blame: Agency

4. Instructor from agency with high standards. Instructor meets, but does not exceed standards.

Results: Good course from a good instructor.

Credit to: Agency

5. Instructor from agency with low standards. Instructor meets, and exceed standards.

Results: Good to excellent course from a good to excellent instructor.

Credit to: Instructor

6. Instructor from agency with high standards. Instructor meets, and exceed standards.

Results: Excellent course from an excellent instructor.

Credit to: Instructor and agency.

[scubaguy]

Started with PADI , went through the Instructor course last year, and Taught PADI Open water all last summer , and Hope to do it again this Summer.
I think it all boils down to the Instructor, If they care wheather you learn to dive or if they just get Paid. I do it because I like it, If I can pay for a diving weekend at the Lake with it great.
Even if I could not , I would be there Diving anyway.
I try to go the extra mile for my students and I hope all you instructors out there are doing the same , whatever organization you teach for. IMO PADI is a good Group , but it is all up to the Instructor after that.

[Quest]

I started with YMCA which i found tends to teach closest to Navy Dive Standards. They of course were the first dive certification organization

Naui i always found to focus big on rescue and medical aspects of diving. In fact i think they were the first to incorporate CPR and create a rescue diver course.

PADI was the first to break down their program into segments (specialty courses) and i think they have done a great job in teaching all the different aspects of diving as indepth as possible. But, they also charge for that breakdown which tends to cost people to much money in the end.

SSI i find to be the first to incorporate video into training and make it easier and cheaper to get certified in the same breakdown of training as padi.

IANTD is my choice out of all of them. They were the first to teach nitrox when the other organizations were against it (look at them now, teaching what they once said was evil), their board members are composed of people involved with all aspects of diving from military, hyperbaric, NOAA, Technical and commercial industries.

Their training material is modern, detailed and very high quality and their instructors are experienced and qualified.

[Walter]

"YMCA.........They of course were the first dive certification organization"

Actually, that was LA County. YMCA was the first National agency.

"Naui........the first to......create a rescue diver course."

Actually, that was YMCA.

[falcon]

I have taught PADI for 15 years. It has gone through some changes over the years. The content of the course is the same. The biggest difference is the reduced knowledge material. Many instructors therefore take the opportunity to reduce the time it takes for basic instruction. Rather what they should be doing is taking that time and applying it to practice. The skills required in confined and open water training are the same as they have been in the past. However, the amount of practice time has been reduced. PADI counters this with an emphasis on post open water courses to increase the amount of practice time under supervision. It is an obligation by the instructor to asses the students in his course and encourge them to take the adavanced open water course. If they are not going to take the couse, one must provide ample time for practice under supervision.

[Big Blue One]

PADI is fine. It's standards are safe consistent and recognised globally.

HOWEVER - out here in SE Asia people get PADI cert'd and cut massive corners. In Singapore courses range in price from <$400 to $700 - you figure out which is best !!!

Bottom line - very few of the diving orgs are on the hook for the performance of their actual instructors. They set standards but don't legally stand directly behind their instructors - this applies to SSI, BSAC, YMCA, PADI ... pretty much everyone.

Diving is a responsibility sport. You get trained by someone who knows what their doing (hopefully). You take personal responsibility - the instructors take personal reponsibility and don't hide behind a big MNC

If your instructor cut corners (SSI, PADI, YMCA ...) then you have a problem. If they forced you through a base standard then you may appreciate what is involved.

Problem is if YOU don't take the sport seriously and don't understand that there are some basic risks - this is not bushwalking !!!! - then you can't expect to be safe.

While every year a few dedicated serious quality individuals expire (usually due to some uncontrollable external gear or environmental factor) the majority of those who get toasted diving weren't properly trained and personally probably didn't take the sport seriously enough and went beyond their limits.

Keep training - keep learning - be a better diver - and have fun !!

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

YMCA cert in 1969 / PADI 1973 -- full cave instructor PADI in 1975..yes PADI did have a full cave cert then. Rory Dickens, Scheck Exley & I ran the program for PADI.

[mexman]

PADI may have been my introduction to diving over 20 years ago, however, most of my skills have been developed by diving with those better than myself.

It is the same way I spend 25 years becoming a better climber and caver. I always try to seek out those who have something to offer, either in the way of skills or attitude. Both are important.

[DIR Tec Diver]

Hello People, this is a ridiculous discussion. Who has a poll comparing, Ferrari, Toyota and Kia? You can not compare agencies this way. I am a PADI instructor, and I am also a Halcyon Dealer with affiliation and training with GUE. There is no comparing these agencies.

PADI is by far the leader in recreational training, and whether you agree with them or not, they got to the top for a reason. They have structure, standards, and policies that they enforce, adhere to and promote globally. PADI is the only agency that you can go anywhere in the world as a diver, and you are recognized and accepted to dive. However, most all agencies NAUI, SSI, CMAS etc. have very similar standards (as they mostly copy PADI), so the main difference is the recognition of the agency and the instructor. There are good and awful instructors in all the above mentioned agencies.

GUE is by far the worlds leading technical diving academy. There are no agencies that have better standards or instructors. yes I know what I am talking about, I have IANTD, TDI, PSA and NSS certs, and GUE blows them all away. There are NO bad GUE insturctors as their standards are so high that if you are not the very very best you stand no chance to instruct for them. I know these people personally and they are the best divers and educators I have ever had the pleasure to meet,and I can only hope I can be half as good as they are.

If you want to have a poll, get your issues straight and don't just stir up the silt to create a mess. Don't pick on PADI because they are on top. Instead of complaining, why don't you support the fact that they are devoted to diving and get more people certified than any other agency in the world which benefits all of us, as the world is a better place with more divers

[LUBOLD8431]

Dude, tune it down a little buddy. PADI may be the largest agency, but its not because they are the best. The only reason why they certify more divers and have more instructors in the world than any other agency is because of the Instructor mills out there that will push you through to a PADI instructor in a week. That does not make them better. That doesnt even make them a good agency. Just because PADI has standards and procedures that a MORON could follow (and by the way, no one copied PADI, most of them started along the same lines, AND all agencies have standards and procedures; ever hear of the RSTC??? They kinda make everything the same because it is made up of most of the agencies), and they tell you EXACTLY how to teach every skill, going down to exactly what to say when you teach a skill, you could have an IQ of 25 and be a PADI instructor. That does NOT make them the best. You should stick to the FACTS, and not let your NAZISM come through in your posts. little general go home...

[icediver]

I guess you just cut down every agency that has anything to do with the RSTC.

I take issue with indiviuals that paint all PADI Instructors with the same brush. That to me is a true sign of a moron. Do you see the difference in that statement, it was only directed at one and not the masses.

Oh and not backing DIR Tec cause I have read some of his other posts.

T

[LUBOLD8431]

PADI is the one that tells you exactly how to teach each skill and even what to say during each skill. And the exact format of each module. The RSTC does not. You misread what I was trying to say.

All the RSTC does is come up with a core set of skills that must be met in a scuba course. Thats it... Nothing about how to teach them.

[icediver]

I must have slept through that part on my IDC.

Since then I have staffed many IDC and we coach canidates on many different ways of teaching skills.

For what they say. They are taught to get to the point and not to run off on a tangent.

Why would you not want a consistent format for each module. That way things are not missed.

T

[LUBOLD8431]

Well, I for one, like to have some flexibility in my teaching. I understand that in PADI, it does make for a very smooth format, and goes from one skill to the next. I dont have a problem with that... I just like to be able to teach the way I want to. When I decided to become an Instructor, I researched the different agencies, and how they trained Instructors, and the way they teach their course, as well as the books and materials... I found that SSI was better in all regards. Thats my experience. Maybe, someday, I will become a PADI Instructor as well, but for right now, SSI is good for me.

[Doppler]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
Well, I for one, like to have some flexibility in my teaching.

SNIP>>>>



This is the key point. PADI has built a system that's essentially "customer proof" for its instructors... follow the plan and the brand is secure. However, from what I remember, this agency's instructors are not encouraged to add value to the training programs.

If you think about this tactic for a while, you have to think that it dismantles the concept of competitive advantage between PADI instructors... the only competitive strategy for many of them is price.... rather than content.

DD

[Diversauras]

I got introduced through B&W TV and Lloyd Bridges and texts and pictures by Jacques Cousteau. My first go at it was New England Divers and there were four 1 hour pool sessions, no test, no book work, tho they did suggest the purchase of the New Science if Skin and Scuba Diving, and...

ready for this???

NO open (or any other kind) of check out dive(s).

There was no Padi then, no BCs, no safe seconds, no SPGs and my first reg had two hoses, actually it still has two hoses.

Anyway it wasn't PADI that introduced me the the silent world.

[Walter]

PADI is a relatively newcomer. LA County was the 1st certification agency. Lots of experienced divers taught diving and issued "hot" cards. The first nationwide agency (YMCA) didn't come along until 1959, NAUI followed the next year. For several years, it was common to start diving with no formal class.

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

PADI was formed in 1967----does this really make it a relative newcomer?

[Walter]

PADI is not a newcomer.

In response to

"There was no Padi then, no BCs, no safe seconds, no SPGs and my first reg had two hoses....."

Then yes, PADI is a relatively newcomer. LA County (1954), YMCA (1959), and NAUI (1960) were all well established by the time PADI came along. Sorry if "relatively" threw you. It was in comparison to Diversauras' comments and to the older agencies which may have (he didn't mention the year) been around when Diversauras started diving.

[plsdiver4377]

NAUI OW Aug. 2002, AOW Oct. 2002, Nitrox March 2003.
Plan on Rescue then Master sometime in the future. Seems to me it has as much or more to do with the instructor than the Org. since I've met really great PADI and NAUI instructors as well as bad ones and one of two SDI instructors which scared me to death.:confused:

[Diversauras]

Didn't mean to mis lead anyone, I guess I should have said that PADI and even NAUI were't what they are today. My first OK to dive came from New England Divers and was in '66, and it was not a certification by any standard, and there was no agency affiliation at that time. I don't know when agency affiliation became important. I dived all over the world and was never asked for any card or logbook though I did participate in almost a years worth of UK diving / BS-AC training in '80. I became a NAUI instructor in '82.

plsdiver4377: I too know divers and instructors from various agencies that scare me to death.

[Braunbehrens]

My OW class was a PADI class, and the instructor was actually pretty good. I took a couple of other PADI classes that were ok, and then some classes by other agencies, but I still did a lot of very stupid stuff and no one told me. Then I took a GUE class, and learned how to dive.

I know it's a cliché, but there's a reason why so many people say that.

I have heard a few horror stories about PADI. I'll recount my favorite one, which I heard from the guy it happend to.

This was an OW class in some quarry, and there were 5 students and only one instructor (he's already not following the rules). For the first dive, the visibility is very bad, so the instructor takes a rope and has everybody hold on to it in a big circle. The instructor tells them that whatever happens, don't let go of the rope.

As they go down, my friend realizes that the visibility is worse than he thought. He can't see anything at all, not his gauges, the rope, the other people, nothing. Finally he figures F-it, inflates his BC and pops to the surface. There is only one other guy on the surface. I'll let you guess who it is.

I think this story illustrates what's wrong with PADI, plus it's funny. Basically the organization is so big, and the standards so thin, that it's impossible to know that you'll get good instruction by taking a PADI class.

In the end, the best bet is to ask for recommendations for good instructors. I think GUE is still small enough where you can largely dispense with that, but it wouldn't hurt.

BTW, the story above was told to me the way I wrote it down. I have no way of verifying it's veracity, but why would the guy lie to me?