Almost to deco... your first time?

[Bretagus]

So I'm just about there... I'm getting a dry suit... going to start getting the hang of doubles... and once I've got dive #100, I'll start shopping for a tech instructor (of whom, I've been trained by one and know another at the LDS). I might not make it into a class this season (wait a second... I'll have a dry suit... to heck with the season!), but still...

Two years ago, I picked up Shadow Divers. At that point, I had barely 25 dives (but a PADI AOW), had never heard of a backplate, and thought I was ready to start diving u-boats. Hell, I had been diving to 115ft, what was the big deal? Then I took my rescue class (from a TDI instructor)... and I realized I was thankful I was still alive! I had been to 115ft??? Suddenly, "plan your dive, dive your plan" started to ring true. So I took two seasons to improve all aspects of my diving (buoyancy and breathing were pretty natural for me, but navigation was tricky... buoyancy AND breathing AND navigation AND untangling a dive flag from a lobster line was even trickier). So now, I'm entering my third season of being a diver (albeit, my 6th year of being certified).

Tech appeals to me because, of the few tech divers I've been with, they all had a plan. Even if you're doing a rec dive on the Poling, you're prepared with a backup deco plan should things go sour. Plus, who wants to spend "just" 20 minutes down there, anyway!?

I've started to talk to a few of you on various threads... but what was your "almost to tech" experience like?

[Rick Inman]

I'm not sure what you mean by, "almost to tech", but I guess mine would be during my tech training. I had always thought I understood the idea of dealing with your problems underwater, but once there was an overhead (virtual, via deco obligation) the practice of handling issues that came up during training underwater was a big dose of tech reality for me. My instructor loved to throw drills at me while at depth, where escaping to the surface was NOT an option. And that changes everything. You can be scared and sick and stressed and out of gas and cramping up and lost and a host of other things, but you can not solve your problems by surfacing. And just the fact of solving the problem usually means being required and prepared to alter the plan on the fly so you can safely exit.

I thought this would freak me out. But, surprisingly, during my transition into tech I found myself both comfortable and excited by the new challenges. Fortunately, I had an instructor who was on the ball enough to keep moving me forward with my depth, skills and training, without moving me too fast into zones that I was not comfortable with or prepared for.

[TSandM]

If I'm intuiting your definition correctly, I'm still in "almost to tech". I've got the gear, I've done the basic class (Fundies, tech pass) and the "techreational" class in two versions (GUE Rec Triox and NAUI Helitrox). I've been hazed by instructors at anything from 10 fsw to 80 or so, done ascents with gas sharing and post failures and had my mask yanked off my face in midwater so many times I can't count them.

As Rick says, the key is that you HAVE to be able to cope, with almost anything and in wicked and stressful combinations, because you no longer have the option to quit. And a good instructor will make you WANT to quit, believe me!

If I have one piece of advice from my experiences, it's to spend a lot of time in midwater. Buoyancy needs to be second nature and pretty imperturbable. You can practice air-sharing and valve drills in midwater (and even better, midwater at NIGHT) until they're just plain easy. Then coping with failures and team management won't be quite so stressful.

[Meng_Tze]

I also do not exactly understand what 'almost to tech would mean'. But what I did learn and see as one of the pillars of Tech diving is the attitude of combining challenges with measured planning. This planning incorporates emergencies and contingencies. Witch experience comes the ability to think 'on your fins' and not panic. One of my latest training experiences was when I was having an issue under water and my instructor merely 'watched me'. (I know she was ready to help, but didn't offer any). I had to solve the issue myself. Having enough redundancy a solution was found and did save the day/dive. The more you get into tech diving, the more important self reliance becomes. This does not per se mean 'solo', but merely that you HAVE to be able to fix issues yourself.

[dumpsterDiver]

It sounds like the OP is asking what level of expereince did people accrue before starting their formal tech training?? I never had any tech training, but his profile says less than 100 dives, which does not sound like that many dives to me. I would think you should be pretty comfortable with the dry suit and doubles before starting tech training in cold water.

[do it easy]

I finished advanced trimix and I'm still learning. I really don't think there is a line in the silt that defines tech, as opposed to recreational. I think it's an open, positive attitude and a willingness to learn. The path to technical diving starts with a single tank and is paved with experience (and money). :D

[DA Aquamaster]

I've been hazed by instructors at anything from 10 fsw to 80 or so, done ascents with gas sharing and post failures and had my mask yanked off my face in midwater so many times I can't count them.Yes. After 23 years of diving in a wide varity of conditons including low viz, no viz, in and around steel cables and structures, in currents up to 7 kts, turbulent water below hydro electric dams, caves, wrecks and with the occassional panicked recreational student (and on one occassion a panicked SWAT team member of the PSD team), I have NEVER lost my mask to anything other than an instructor yanking it off. I did flood it once or twice though.

I often marvel at the perceived value of the extent of hazing such as mask removal when it has no real connection to the conditions that divers face in the real world. If a diver can function with their mask and more importantly under stress, enough already. Training is fine but "hazing" really has no place other than perhaps to establish some sort of macho pecking order and I'd rather not convey the impression that all tech instructors operate that way.

[irishsquid]

I finished advanced trimix and I'm still learning. I really don't think there is a line in the silt that defines tech, as opposed to recreational. I think it's an open, positive attitude and a willingness to learn. The path to technical diving starts with a single tank and is paved with experience (and money). :D

I'm still OW, planning for my AOW this spring/summer. Easy; I like your quote:
"I think it's an open, positive attitude and a willingness to learn. The path to technical diving starts with a single tank and is paved with experience (and money)." That's how I see my entire dive /history/future evolving.

[ianr33]

and had my mask yanked off my face in midwater so many times I can't count them.


Does GUE actually do this?

With TDI your mask is "requested" rather than "taken"

Just curious.

[texdiveguy]

Heck, technical diving is just recreational diving with more gear!

I know for me I will be in the 'learning curve' for a longtime to come.

I hope the OP does not try and rush things as this is when folks get burned out and quite diving....good for us cause we can pick up nice dive gear cheap...bad for them cause they are missing out on what can be an adventure.

:)

[texdiveguy]

had my mask yanked off my face in midwater so many times I can't count them.



Last time I had it intentionally 'yanked' off was in 1971 in O/W training.....things were done quite different in those early days of training, including gas valves being shut down without you knowing. Does nothing to improving your diving skills...there are better ways to handling these skill developments IMO.

[TSandM]

Training is fine but "hazing" really has no place other than perhaps to establish some sort of macho pecking order and I'd rather not convey the impression that all tech instructors operate that way.


Sorry; perhaps the word "hazing" was the wrong one to choose. I simply wanted to convey that the instruction I've had has focused on raising the stress level until one has trouble coping with it, both as a way of extending one's limits, and as a cautionary lesson in the fact that, no matter how good you may think you are, there is a point where your skills degrade.

GUE does not remove students' masks. This was not a GUE instructor. And I am very glad he did what he did, because one of my very biggest challenges in diving from the beginning until now (and it's still not totally solved) is that I don't cope well with limited or absent visual references. This instructor saw that early on, and therefore repeatedly put me into situations where I had to try to cope with those conditions, and I think it was a very good thing to do to me.

I've said before that I don't think it's a really good idea to dive with a known hole in your defences, and that certainly applies in spades to technical or overhead diving. If you know you have an issue, as I have with midwater and a friend has with flooded masks, work on it until it's solved, and then periodically refresh the work so that the weakness doesn't sneak back up on you.

[Meng_Tze]

Does GUE actually do this?

With TDI your mask is "requested" rather than "taken"

Just curious.

In 2004 I did 'loose' my mask, one fin and lost gas from my BC while my buddy was OOA and bubbles appeared at my manifold.... all this while we were supposed to stop and shoot a bag. I don't know if GUE changed their practices, but in 04 'loosing' things was definitely part of training.

[texdiveguy]

In 2004 I did 'loose' my mask, one fin and lost gas from my BC while my buddy was OOA and bubbles appeared at my manifold.... all this while we were supposed to stop and shoot a bag. I don't know if GUE changed their practices, but in 04 'loosing' things was definitely part of training.

What did you come away with from this task loaded chain of events and gear failures?

[Meng_Tze]

So what did you come away with from this task loaded chain of events and gear failures?

The first time I 'died'................:D Later on, we managed and to be honest, it did set things up for subsequent training and being able to prioritize issues and address them methodically.

[texdiveguy]

The first time I 'died'................:D Later on, we managed and to be honest, it did set things up for subsequent training and being able to prioritize issues and address them methodically.

Least you gained the perspective your instructor was trying to get across.....I just loved task loading drills in my training....I still don't like swimming one fin only--lol!

[DA Aquamaster]

Losing fins is right up there for the all time winner of the award for things that get simulated but almost never happen in the real world - especially with spring straps.

Losing a mask is oddly enough not the worst thing you can inflict on a student visibility wise. Assuming the student does not have issues breathing without a mask, removing the mask really only limits visibility a bit - it still leaves a good degree of vision. On the other hand, putting a piece of tin foil over the mask turns the lights out as well and leaves them in zero viz and that is both more challenging and makes replicating a lost light/zero viz situation possible in open water.

It does not however appear to have caught on outside PSD training.

I do agree that racheting up the task loading is important - both as a training tool in terms of getting divers to prioritize and problem solve and as a diagnostic tool to see if the diver has the minimum psychological and mental attributes they need to pass the class. But once that is achieved or established, too much of it can just detract from the other experiential aspects of the dive and it can be used as a crutch by instructors who either have little else to teach or are not able to put together challenging training without simulating failures to death.

[TSandM]

I actually lost a fin in Jackson Blue last week . . . Using borrowed fins without spring straps, because my ordered fins hadn't come in before we left on the trip, and a strap came loose from the attachment, despite being taped down. It was a HORRIBLE experience, because I'd never tried to swim with one fin before, especially in doubles, and I lost my balance and ended up hanging onto a rock until my buddy could reassemble the fin and put it back on, and all I could think was, "If this had happened in a silty area of the cave, we'd all be in a world of hurt." As a consequence, I ended that dive practicing swimming with one fin in the open water, and it's something I'll practice regularly for a while until I'm really solid with it.

Frankly, Murphy is a diver, and I don't think much of anything is so far-fetched that it could never possibly happen :)

[Bretagus]

Awesome, so this has turned out to be quite the forum of "train for these worst case scenarios." This is what I was looking for, even if I didn't know how to ask for it =P

So... the bottom line, I keep hearing, is the NEED to deal with it under water. Indeed, deco IS a cave... although you "can" escape to the surface, you're betting on being minutes away from a chamber. I will take this attitude to heart as I begin this season. (Perhaps, instead of "what was your almost-tech," I should have asked, "What would you advise a 'one-season away from tech to practice and internalize'?)

I certainly agree with all of y'alls warnings about too much, too fast. I'm only considering tech as my buddies and I are starting to consider some local chartered dives ~100ft mark. It just gets me thinking... "what happens when you surpass your NDL?" I guess thats my 'theme' for this coming season... being prepared for the worst. Again, I've been "trained" for that (basically, "don't go past your NDL!" and "make sure you do a safety stop!") and I've done beyond that depth, but... my lack of knowlege bothers me.

Thanks again, for the replies. Very informative! (especially mid-water... buoyancy w/o visual reference... [I presume you can watch you gauge?]... sounds quite difficult).
-Brett

[JimLap]

Ther fact that you realize there's alot you don't know is a good sign. The problem begins when people don't have a clue as to how much they don't know and find out the hard way. If you are serious about going tech I'd advise joining the deco stop and just lurk for awhile. Read and let it sink in. Going to tech is when you really start to see that while this is fun, exciting, safe, an adventure, you'll meet new people, go new places, seee knew things, yada, yada, yada- if you dive outside your training and experience and in some cases equipment this sport WILL kill you in a heartbeat. The agencies don't like us to teach that but it's true. Next check around to find a good tech oriented shop and instructor. Again TDS is your friend here. You'll get no BS over there.

Once you find one ask lots of questions then ask some more. Next open the wallet wide. If you're not willing or able to make the gear switches and adjustments your instructor requires he/she may not let you even begin the class. Some may let you start in "semi-tech" configurations (h valves- console 1st couple dives-jacket bc etc) I don't recommend it. You're gonna switch anyway why try to half ass the beginning. Buy a BPW now and start diving it. Even if you get a singles wing to start you can always buy another wing for doubles and use the singles for traveling. Again some don't want to buy two wings. It's too much money they say. These don't need to be doing tech. I have one BPW for singles and one for doubles. When you really start getting into it those are a drop in the bucket.

Next get your buoyancy down starting as soon as possible. Do everything in a horizontal position. Ascents, descents, mask drills, air share, etc. try the latter two while hover horizontal 2 feet above the bottom or platform. You should not change depth more than a foot or so. Next start doing them in midwater with no visual reference and again your depth should not vary more than 2-3 ft to start. I just got back from bonaire and diving the reefs and walls in that clear water was a good place to practice holding depths while swimming and not using my comp. I saw many people who were just swimming along and suddenly finding themselves 10,20, 30 or more feet deeper than they intended. Learn to use what's available to you. I practiced doing it while not looking at the wall and instead looking out into blue water or getting away from the reef and just looking down into the abyss where there was no bottom visible and the vis was 100 feet plus. I paid attention to my ears and sinuses. swim for a minute the glance at the reef then back out into the blue. Then check the guage. You can go to 80 or 90 from 50 very quickly. But if you pay attention to your body, "wait, I need to equalize, add air to the wing, feel like I'm sinking, etc" you probably are changing depth more than you want. By midweek I found myself comfortable with swimming to the boat well away from the reef and going along for up to 20 minutes and not needing to do more than glance at my depth for more than 2 or 3 times and finding I could maintain my depth within a few feet.

Most of all while it's alot of fun tech is not ow or aow. Things can go from good to deep doodoo very fast. Know your gear. Know it intimately. Know it blind. And most of all know that it can fail. If it's not properly serviced or cared for and sometimes even if it is. This is why you need to get used to having 2 or 3 of everything. Masks, regs, guages, cutting tools, lights, etc. See opening wallet paragraph. Have fun.

[TSandM]

Bretagus, you sound a lot like me! I took Fundies to get better skills, but I took 5thD-Xs Rec 2 class because I wanted some additional training just for diving in deeper recreational depths. 120 feet is a LONG way from the surface, and some of these "solve it underwater" skills seemed like they'd be awfully good to have if things went sideways down that deep. (After taking the class, I was sure of it!) I took a recreational helium class (actually, as it turned out, two of them) to have that in the armamentarium, and learned a lot more about decompression strategies from two different approaches. I figure I'm about as well-armed from a training standpoint for dives within recreational limits (and to handle it if I run over the limits because of an unforeseen problem) as I can be. (Whether the skills are actually there or not is another question, but I've had all the training there is!)

[Meng_Tze]

So... the bottom line, I keep hearing, is the NEED to deal with it under water. Indeed, deco IS a cave... although you "can" escape to the surface, you're betting on being minutes away from a chamber. I will take this attitude to heart as I begin this season....
Beyond the 'fix it' yourself mentality, knowing what you are doing and making (sometimes hard) decisions is also part of that.

I certainly agree with all of y'alls warnings about too much, too fast. I'm only considering tech as my buddies and I are starting to consider some local chartered dives ~100ft mark. It just gets me thinking... "what happens when you surpass your NDL?" I guess thats my 'theme' for this coming season... being prepared for the worst. Again, I've been "trained" for that (basically, "don't go past your NDL!" and "make sure you do a safety stop!") and I've done beyond that depth, but... my lack of knowlege bothers me.

Finding good buddies is also a MAJOR factor. Buddies who know , trust each other and have the attitude and training to also help each other. There will be times when you come to a dive and it does not feel right. Calling the dive without any peer pressure/repercussions is part of it as well. As for going beyond ones training levels, that is a very personal choice. Knowing you lack knowledge is good, getting that training and knowledge is building up to becoming a good tech diver. But no matter what, always be honest with yourself when it comes to actually doing or calling a dive.

[MBH]

It just gets me thinking... "what happens when you surpass your NDL?" I guess thats my 'theme' for this coming season... being prepared for the worst.


At the very least- you should have a copy of the US Navy Air Tables and know how to calculate your deco obligation.

[lamont]

As Rick says, the key is that you HAVE to be able to cope, with almost anything and in wicked and stressful combinations, because you no longer have the option to quit. And a good instructor will make you WANT to quit, believe me!


Not sure I agree with this. I never felt like I wanted to quit in cave1 in the slightest...

OTOH, nothing an instructor can do beats getting hit in the face with a lions mane jelly while scootering and having your face explode in pain...

[cmalinowski]

...OTOH, nothing an instructor can do beats getting hit in the face with a lions mane jelly while scootering and having your face explode in pain...Hard to argue with that logic... you know, unless the instructors start using lions mane jellies in their training scenarios :)

[TSandM]

Well, I haven't done Cave 1, but the midwater training I've done has all too often ended up in a situation where I've said to myself, "Man, I'm really tired of this, I wish I could just go to the surface and take a breather." But neither that nor a "time out" was an option, although occasionally my dry suit took matter into its own boots and took me to the surface anyway :)

[dumpsterDiver]

Not sure I agree with this. I never felt like I wanted to quit in cave1 in the slightest...

OTOH, nothing an instructor can do beats getting hit in the face with a lions mane jelly while scootering and having your face explode in pain...

Damn, that sounds as bad as the tree that jumped out in front of my truck on dark and rainy night.

[flareless]

Great thread folks! There are many useful suggestions here. My ultimate goal is Technical Diving. I just got my AOW but I still have a long way to go. I've moved from a traditional BC to a Backplate/Wing configuration in preparation for the switch. I figure that it's best to begin diving with a configuration which I'll ultimately be using. It will also help be become familiar ("intimately familiar" as someone mentioned) with my gear. I want to be able to handle any aspect of it in zero viz situations should the need arise.

The task loading information imparted here is also hugely helpful. I can see a huge need to be able to resolve several issues at once in the high stress environment. The ability to not "freak out" when things go wrong is critical for Technical Diving (as it is too in Recreational Diving) and the ability to work calmly and rationally through problems is paramount. Hopefully, having hundreds of skydives and dealing with heavy task loading under stress will help me in my underwater endeavors.

Finally, the "take it slow" advice is one I plan to follow. While I have semi-decent boyancy control I have a lot of work in fine tuning it. During a trip last week with far more experienced divers I noticed the amount of effort they expended in boyancy and in movement was far less than I was putting in. The added effort on my part contributed to my (much) higher air consumption. This season I plan to dive a lot and focus on the fundamentals, practice dealing with problems and then finally move into the Technical Diving realm.

Thanks to everyone who contributed some excellent information to this thread!