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Bspurr13
March 9th, 2008, 03:59 PM
I know it’s an odd title for a thread – but please bear with me.

Are jet fins the Colt 1911 of the SCUBA world? This is a real question - I’m actually considering buying a pair.

A bit of background - The Colt 1911 .45 cal handgun has been around, well, since 1911. It was and remains very popular and was the official sidearm of our military until 1985. However, since 1911 there have been many advances, and there are many sidearms that out perform the 1911. The military got wise and changed – and you don’t see many law enforcement officers that carry the 1911. However, there are tons of people out there that just can’t let go – there are a million articles written, modifications galore and many spin-off guns based on the 1911. I even fell for the hype years ago and bought a very expensive SS Colt 1911 Officers Model – worst gun I’ve ever owned! Jammed constantly and never performed well. Sold it and bought a Berretta .40 cal…

Anyway, enough gun talk since this is a SCUBA forum… And on to my question… The Jet Fin has been around since the 60s, in about the same form, and again, there have been a lot of advances since then. I know there are a lot of die-hard fans that swear by them… But is it the same type of situation as the 1911? Are these people ignoring the better performing fins and just not letting go for sentimental reasons?

Another issue is the price of some of the “high performance” fins… Out of control!

Thanks,
Brett

Blackwood
March 9th, 2008, 04:14 PM
Different fins perform better in different situations. Jets are no different, but many of us find that the Jet/Turtle/Rocket style fin is the most versatile.

It's really a matter of personal preference, though.

scubacoots3
March 9th, 2008, 04:17 PM
Jets are a soild good fin and i own a pair but i also own a pair of split fins

I prefere my Glock .45 over the colt 1911

Nemrod
March 9th, 2008, 04:22 PM
First, I was by a well known gun manufactuer just by chance on a recent trip, this past week and you know I understand the armed forces want a .45 again. Seems the 9mm is just not stopping the crazies.

As to advances in the "flipper" world there really have not been any. OK, they split them and now they got hinges and rubber bands in them and there is that weird 800 dollar Force Fin. Boring. The two best fins ever made are the Voit UDT in gum rubber and the JetFin XL, the so called Super Jet. Everything else, for scuba purposes, pales in comparison and oddly they are two of he oldest designs. The old Nemrod Super A Profesional is a good fin also as is the Voit Viking A66.

N

captain
March 9th, 2008, 04:26 PM
Jets are heavy and work great with a wet or dry suit to help trim. With no exposure protection I like a lighter fin, the Mares power plana, for the same reason, trim.

And I like the 1911 on my side, in stainless so it won't rust in salt water.

Bspurr13
March 9th, 2008, 04:29 PM
I'm not a fan of the 9mm either for that reason. .40 cal is a great cross between velocity and weight.... That's why most LE agencies issue them now... Thanks for replies so far.

DA Aquamaster
March 9th, 2008, 04:47 PM
The analogy is a good one.

Regarding the 1911, .45 ACP is my personal caliber of choice if I have to stop someone immediately with a handun. It has proven stopping power even, in the FMJ non expanding "ball" rounds specified by the Hague Convention where the 9mm round used by the M9/M9A1 does not.

The 1911 Government model in .45 ACP is also my favorite pin gun (for bowling pin shoots) and for general practical pistol competition. Properly built, tuned and fed with quality ammunition it is very accurate, very reliable and very effective.

Now to clarify, I did not state the Colt 1911 was a favorite as Colt's current or even recent production is less than great. The Series 80 trigger is creepy feeling due to the firing pin safety and in general even their highly accurate Gold Cup model, will not stay that way very long.

This is not all Colt's fault, as a stock series 70 or 80 is based on the US military 1911A1 which was designed to function only with 230 gr ball ammunition. You need a lot of tweaking to the basic design to get it to be 100% reliable with 185 gr JHP's, 200 gr SWC's, ect in addition to 230 gr FMJ ammunition.

The quality of the various 1911 clones varies greatly and while some companies make exceptional copies that far exceed the performance of the Colt original, many are very poor quality with even poorer assembly.

And make no mistake, the 1911 is one of the most copied pistol designs in history.

That is one of the things it shares with the Jetfin - which is one of the most copied fin designs in history. Another is that the 1911 is well suited to a wide variety of roles just like the Jet Fin.

The US military switched to the M9 in what remains a controversial move as the M9 lacks stopping power and is either one of the most loved or hated weapons in the sandbox - with the people hating being the ones most often having to use it in combat.

The advantage of the M9 - which was based on the design of one of the first "wonder nines" offering high magazine capacity is the doubel action capability and the related reduction in taining needed to get the average soldier to be abel to shoot it without blowing a toe off. It is however way to large for a 9mm pistol and offers very little - other than DA capability over a Browing Hi Power - a descendent of the 1911 that the Hi-Power delivers in a smaller and more durable package. And unlike the 1911 and Hi-Power, the M9 is not freindly to shooters with small hands.

The Glock expands on this offering mediaum and large frame sizes and uses a similarly idiot proof fire control system so it is easy to train Law Enforcement Officers to use it. And most LEO's are not gun people and do not shoot more often than the minimum require to qualify 2-4 times per year so having an idiot proof gun is an important quality.

.40 Smith and Wsson (aka:Short and Whimpy) is a compromise cartridge. It offers more stopping power than a .45 ACP with magazine capacity in between a 9mm and a .45, it is slightly more controllable than a .45, but has more recoil than a 9mm (and a sharper recoil than a .45) so it does everything ok but loses in speed to the 9mm and in stopping power to the .45. When you put a .40 in Glock you get a compromiose cartridge in a pistol optimized for minimal training in terms of fire control and immediate action - which makes it wel suited for LEO use, but you almost never see them in a practical pistol competition as neither the Glock nor the .40 short and whimpy do nothing exceptionally well.

So in the end, I shoot a Kimber 1911 clone in .45 ACP as it is better than the original Colt, and I recently switched to OMS slipstream clones of the SP Jet Fin as they are a bit stiffer, back kick a bit better and have a foot pocket size and shape that is superior to the foot pocket on the Jet Fin. In both cases it is a situation where an excellent design is slightly better executed by a company making a newer and slightly improved clone.

Nemrod
March 9th, 2008, 06:52 PM
Sorry I left out the Plana, the full foot Power Plana has been a favorite of mine for years. I tore the foot pocket out on my current pair so I will need another. I only use them for "tropical" diving. They are more comfortable since I can wear them barefoot for warm water boat diving. Whenever I have to wear boots, warm or not then I regrettably reach for the Jets. I do ok with them in warm water (no exposure suits) but they are a touch heavy in that they will make your feet drop. I hate buying anything from Mares but I guess I will have to make an exception. The other problem is that I like to dive traditional and something about the Mares Plana just is offensive, it is plastic and has not the history that the UDT or Jet has. The Plana is a good free dive and snorkel fin too.

N

captain
March 9th, 2008, 07:13 PM
I have the all black power plana graphite. They don't look as geeky as the white translucent blade regular power plana

GotNoOcean
March 9th, 2008, 07:20 PM
I've been using Mares Avanti Quattros for 8-10 years, but got a drysuit last year. My old fins just didn't fit over the boots, so I tried a bunch of different fins. The Jets were by far the best for me with the drysuit -- didn't need additional weight on my ankles, and the fins are just a great versatile design that works well with any kick, plenty of thrust.

fstrecon8653
March 9th, 2008, 07:47 PM
Jet/rockets fins are a Great fin and one that I still use however Fins are a personal choice, just like masks no two are a like. I suggest you try out as many as you can. I know in my shop I have demo Fins and highly encourage divers / skin divers to take a few types to the pool and see what they like better. Remember trying fins in a pool isn’t as good as actually diving the fins in currents and such but it will help you make a more informed decision about what fin is right for you.
As per the .45, The Marine Corps is still issuing them for certain Special Operation units. Force Recon gets the MEU/SOC 45, (A basic 1911 with a ton of modifications) and DET 1 "MAR SOC" had Kimber make a 1911 to fit their needs. Kimber release a similar one for the public a few years later called the “desert warrior”. I own a few handguns back in the states, and have fired most of the popular brands; my preference is still the 1911. But just like Fins it’s a personal choice, the single well magazine just fits in my hand better.

Bspurr13
March 9th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Thanks again for all the replies - great info (on both fins and guns). I have been a rec (ow) diver for > 15 years but want to start getting into some basic tech stuff like wrecks. It seems like the jet fin is a great all around fin - and the fin of choice for the hard core techies...

I think I'm gonna give em a shot - especially since I dive in CA and wear lots of rubber.

Oh yeah - the one thing I failed to mention, is that even though I traded in a .45 for a .40... The gun in my nightstand - the one I would grab if some psycho was in my house - is a .357 mag Ruger gp100... If I can't hit em w/ 6 shots, I shouldn't even own a gun - and no matter where I hit em, with that load, they are goin DOWN! However, nothing beats the good old 12 ga w/ OO buck.

RS
March 9th, 2008, 10:09 PM
One monkey-pusher compared to another...

I keep the colt 1991 model close by. And the turtle fin, OMS Slipstream, and a SP jetfin.

:)

ereediver
March 9th, 2008, 10:16 PM
DA don't be a Glock hater. Simple to operate few moving parts which are interchangeable and very reliable. Yes the .40 is a compromise brought about by the Miami shoot in I believe 1985. That produced the 10mm which is just too big. Walking around with a 1911 "cocked and locked" also is not a happy thought. For a combat pistol the Glock 22 works just fine. Must be nice to be able to afford Kimbers
As far a Fins go. I don't know much about them. On that thought, What size fine would one suggest to fit over a size 9 rock boot?

nadwidny
March 9th, 2008, 10:21 PM
Guns and scuba in the same thread. Did you come from rec.scuba?


] Are these people ignoring the better performing fins and just not letting go for sentimental reasons

Let go of what? Jets are among "the better performing fins". There is nothing to let go of.

underwasser bolt
March 9th, 2008, 10:26 PM
Fins: I have a pair of Jets and love them. I have a pair of splits and love them too. I have a hard time finning backwards with split fins; much easier with the jets. this may not be a consideration for everyone.

side arms: I have too many. On duty, agency glock .40. Off duty, agency glock .40 compact. For fun, a series 70 1911 Colt because its cool, a Browning Hi-Power .40, and several other goodies to include Sig's. For durabilty, take a beating and keep shooting, glock rule the day hands down. i do prefer .45 to .40, however.

agilis
March 9th, 2008, 11:46 PM
I have a 1911, manufactured in 1913. I've owned it since the 1960s. I've put at least 4,000 rounds through it over the years, and it has never jammed, misfired, stovepiped, or failed to perform perfectly, every shot, every time. It has had a few new barrels, springs, recoil buffers, and the like, all replaced before any failure. It is extremely accurate, usually able to shoot two inch spreads at 50 feet, unless I screw up, and towards the end of a long string when a superhot barrel will throw a few outside the ring. I only shoot standard military issue ammo. I'm not claiming that the 1911 is the best pistol available, but I am convinced that the solid Colt workmanship of nearly a century ago produced a virtually failsafe weapon, assuming it is properly maintained and fed. I also have a Walther PP, prewar, 9mm Kurtz, that also has a perfect operational record, though I have not shot it as much, especially since I was told it's worth a small fortune. The performance record of the Colt 1911 and 1911A1 is what gives them their cult status. Browning's design is magnificent, and when the manufacturing is a good as the design, the produst is superb, a masterpiece that gave me confidence that got me through the night when it mattered. The various clones out there may or may not compare, depending on many, many variables. I have no interest in them. Military UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PROPERTY marked pistols made by Colt and a few WW2 era contractors, or commercial Colts made before 1940 are all that interest me.

Fins are a matter of personal preference. For cold water Jets or Turtles are as good as anything on the market, all things considered. For warmer water I like full foots; my current preference is the Apollo.

PfcAJ
March 10th, 2008, 01:00 AM
If I can't hit em w/ 6 shots, I shouldn't even own a gun - and no matter where I hit em, with that load, they are goin DOWN! However, nothing beats the good old 12 ga w/ OO buck.

You'd be suprised how shoddy your marksmaship becomes when its no longer a paper target ;) Stack the odds in your favor.

Bspurr13
March 10th, 2008, 02:13 AM
You'd be suprised how shoddy your marksmaship becomes when its no longer a paper target ;) Stack the odds in your favor.

That's why a 12 ga w/ 00 buck is best! All you have to be sure of, is that your target, is really a target - then open fire!

PfcAJ
March 10th, 2008, 03:04 AM
Haha, true indeed.

neil
March 10th, 2008, 03:35 AM
I don't think I'd want to get whacked in the head with a size XL Jet fin either.

Katamuki
March 10th, 2008, 06:05 AM
Jet/rockets fins are a Great fin and one that I still use however Fins are a personal choice, just like masks no two are a like. I suggest you try out as many as you can. I know in my shop I have demo Fins and highly encourage divers / skin divers to take a few types to the pool and see what they like better. Remember trying fins in a pool isn’t as good as actually diving the fins in currents and such but it will help you make a more informed decision about what fin is right for you.
As per the .45, The Marine Corps is still issuing them for certain Special Operation units. Force Recon gets the MEU/SOC 45, (A basic 1911 with a ton of modifications) and DET 1 "MAR SOC" had Kimber make a 1911 to fit their needs. Kimber release a similar one for the public a few years later called the “desert warrior”. I own a few handguns back in the states, and have fired most of the popular brands; my preference is still the 1911. But just like Fins it’s a personal choice, the single well magazine just fits in my hand better.

Chris!!! Is that you?!!! How was the "reflection" for you? Learn anything... :lotsalove:
Doug is well down here and has had me working with a number of his new students over the last couple of weeks. I am still using the splits, cant afford the atomics you rich guys use... :eyebrow:

Semper Fi, right?!

Jim

Gil57usa
March 10th, 2008, 06:59 AM
I know it’s an odd title for a thread – but please bear with me.

Are jet fins the Colt 1911 of the SCUBA world? This is a real question - I’m actually considering buying a pair.

A bit of background - The Colt 1911 .45 cal handgun has been around, well, since 1911. It was and remains very popular and was the official sidearm of our military until 1985. However, since 1911 there have been many advances, and there are many sidearms that out perform the 1911. The military got wise and changed – and you don’t see many law enforcement officers that carry the 1911. However, there are tons of people out there that just can’t let go – there are a million articles written, modifications galore and many spin-off guns based on the 1911. I even fell for the hype years ago and bought a very expensive SS Colt 1911 Officers Model – worst gun I’ve ever owned! Jammed constantly and never performed well. Sold it and bought a Berretta .40 cal…

Anyway, enough gun talk since this is a SCUBA forum… And on to my question… The Jet Fin has been around since the 60s, in about the same form, and again, there have been a lot of advances since then. I know there are a lot of die-hard fans that swear by them… But is it the same type of situation as the 1911? Are these people ignoring the better performing fins and just not letting go for sentimental reasons?

Another issue is the price of some of the “high performance” fins… Out of control!

Thanks,
Brett

First of all, there are a great many Law Enforcement Officers that carry 1911 .45's. In fact, many of them prefer it over the .40 cal. Second, there are many manufacturers other than Colt that make the 1911 .45. I have two Kimbers that are beyond compare, both in quality and reliability. As for comparing a 1911 .45 to SCUBA fins, apples to oranges. Get your facts straight, do some real research and make an informed decision.

Papa Steve
March 10th, 2008, 07:11 AM
I know it’s an odd title for a thread – but please bear with me.

Are jet fins the Colt 1911 of the SCUBA world? This is a real question - I’m actually considering buying a pair.

A bit of background - The Colt 1911 .45 cal handgun has been around, well, since 1911. It was and remains very popular and was the official sidearm of our military until 1985. However, since 1911 there have been many advances, and there are many sidearms that out perform the 1911. The military got wise and changed – and you don’t see many law enforcement officers that carry the 1911. However, there are tons of people out there that just can’t let go – there are a million articles written, modifications galore and many spin-off guns based on the 1911. I even fell for the hype years ago and bought a very expensive SS Colt 1911 Officers Model – worst gun I’ve ever owned! Jammed constantly and never performed well. Sold it and bought a Berretta .40 cal…

Anyway, enough gun talk since this is a SCUBA forum… And on to my question… The Jet Fin has been around since the 60s, in about the same form, and again, there have been a lot of advances since then. I know there are a lot of die-hard fans that swear by them… But is it the same type of situation as the 1911? Are these people ignoring the better performing fins and just not letting go for sentimental reasons?

Another issue is the price of some of the “high performance” fins… Out of control!

Thanks,
Brett

Love my Jets. Spring straps are a must. The only downside I have found (for my type of diving) is that they are a bit negative.

Guns!?
My favorite is a Magnum Research Baby Eagle 9mm. You can drive tacks with it. Also have a Beretta Storm .40 that's looking for a new home.
On the 1911, I know it has a hugh following but it's not made my collection yet. I almost purchased a Kimber ultra carry but just couldn't come to grips with SA only. I went with a Sig P239. And yes, a trusty shotgun is best for home defense but a good bird load is going to be just as effective at close range as 00 buck and not be a danger for those sleeping in the next room.

SCUBA and Guns! Maybe we should get our own sub-forum. :D

SparticleBrane
March 10th, 2008, 07:31 AM
I need an AA-12. Fully auto, gas operated, low-recoil, shotgun...
I think this is a better analogy to the Jets. :D

p4ebtj1jR7c

Gil57usa
March 10th, 2008, 07:43 AM
DA don't be a Glock hater. Simple to operate few moving parts which are interchangeable and very reliable. Yes the .40 is a compromise brought about by the Miami shoot in I believe 1985. That produced the 10mm which is just too big. Walking around with a 1911 "cocked and locked" also is not a happy thought. For a combat pistol the Glock 22 works just fine. Must be nice to be able to afford Kimbers
As far a Fins go. I don't know much about them. On that thought, What size fine would one suggest to fit over a size 9 rock boot?

Whats wrong with cocked and locked? They are designed to be carried that way and are perfectly safe.

Flightlead
March 10th, 2008, 08:15 AM
I know it’s an odd title for a thread – but please bear with me.

Are jet fins the Colt 1911 of the SCUBA world? This is a real question - I’m actually considering buying a pair.

A bit of background - The Colt 1911 .45 cal handgun has been around, well, since 1911. It was and remains very popular and was the official sidearm of our military until 1985. However, since 1911 there have been many advances, and there are many sidearms that out perform the 1911. The military got wise and changed – and you don’t see many law enforcement officers that carry the 1911. However, there are tons of people out there that just can’t let go – there are a million articles written, modifications galore and many spin-off guns based on the 1911. I even fell for the hype years ago and bought a very expensive SS Colt 1911 Officers Model – worst gun I’ve ever owned! Jammed constantly and never performed well. Sold it and bought a Berretta .40 cal…

Anyway, enough gun talk since this is a SCUBA forum… And on to my question… The Jet Fin has been around since the 60s, in about the same form, and again, there have been a lot of advances since then. I know there are a lot of die-hard fans that swear by them… But is it the same type of situation as the 1911? Are these people ignoring the better performing fins and just not letting go for sentimental reasons?

Another issue is the price of some of the “high performance” fins… Out of control!

Thanks,
Brett

great fin, though I prefer my OMS Slipstreams and my Colt National Match Gold Cup .45 but shooting to "50 feet" per another poster isn't accuracy. For that I shoot my Dan Wesson .44 mag revolver, 10 inch weighted, vented barrel, 245 grain semi-jacketed wadcutter with maximum loads and a scope - offhand. talk about some knock down power and accurate well past 100 YARDS.

james croft
March 10th, 2008, 09:12 AM
The jet fit may well be the 1911 Colt. The DA Aquamaster double hose reg is the AK-47 of regs. Found worldwide, and works under all conditions. The Seahawk knife is the Kabar of scuba.

As a side note, I actually carry a Glock 40 cal. underwater diving while working as a LEO diver.
When patrolling in river areas on a Zodiac I dive bridges as I come to them looking for evidence such as guns or safes. As the boat is unattended I definitely don't want my gun left topside to get ripped off. I carry it in a nylon holster with an attached lanyard. The lanyard has a bolt snap on one end and is a piece of parachute cord. The other end is run through the lanyard hole and tied of with a figure eight. I replaced the firing pin cups with maritime cups and use solid rounds for this application as the gun can fire when the firing pin channel is full of water and the barrel flooded. While partial to the Colt and knowing it is up to the challenge, I would not like to take one underwater and soggy up those nice checkered walnut grips. The Glock could care less about where it goes.

Also the Glock goes well with my Jets and Seahawk.

DA Aquamaster
March 10th, 2008, 09:15 AM
great fin, though I prefer my OMS Slipstreams and my Colt National Match Gold Cup .45 but shooting to "50 feet" per another poster isn't accuracy. For that I shoot my Dan Wesson .44 mag revolver, 10 inch weighted, vented barrel, 245 grain semi-jacketed wadcutter with maximum loads and a scope - offhand. talk about some knock down power and accurate well past 100 YARDS.That's accurate, but about as concealable as my TC Contender. (The 14" .223 barrel by the way get 1/4 MOA accuracy, so 300 yard shots are do-able.) The 7-30 Waters barrel is nearly as accurate (about 1/2 MOA) and delivers near .308 energy.

I agree that accuracy is a relative term, where it gets interesting is when you combine speed, accuracy and movement, and in a short range practical shooting situation a government model is hard to beat.


Whats wrong with cocked and locked? They are designed to be carried that way and are perfectly safe.I think the people that object to carrying a 1911 in Condition 1 don't understand it. I have had some of the same people object to a Hi Power with the SFS system as well, as it is still technically cocked and locked, even though the hammer is down and not under spring pressure.

With the 1911 you have a grip safety, a manual safety and, on the Colt series 80 or schwartz system equipped Kimbers, a firing pin safety. You have to be really stupid to defeat all of those safeties even cocked and locked and it really is no different and no less safe than carrying a glock with a round in the chamber. If someone has a problem with that, they need to go more Eurpoean and carry the weapon safety off with an empty chamber.

The primary difference is I think visual in that the hammer is indeed cocked and exposed on a 1911, which I would argue is a plus as it tends to prevent complacency compared to a glock.

Garrobo
March 10th, 2008, 09:30 AM
I've been shooting the M1911 in one variety or the other since about 1955. It is my favorite pistol and especially in .45 ACP. When it is necessary to stop all action, in my opinion, it is the best. Personally my carry gun is a Tanfoglio, 10-shot, .22 lr. I don't care what others say about this cartridge but if you pop someone in the knee with the little .22 they usually won't bother you again. If things get serious you have nine more chances for a close-up head shot which will sort things out in a hurry.

Garrobo
March 10th, 2008, 09:31 AM
Force Fins rule. Especially in hot pink.

cerich
March 10th, 2008, 09:33 AM
First, I was by a well known gun manufactuer just by chance on a recent trip, this past week and you know I understand the armed forces want a .45 again. Seems the 9mm is just not stopping the crazies.



N

9mm ball ammo isn't stopping the crazies. The Geneva convention means that the last 100 years of ammunition development are denied to soldiers in combat.

Coalcracker
March 10th, 2008, 09:54 AM
First issued a 1911A1 in 1969. Brought a pair of ScubaPro jets in 1973.
I still own a 1911 model colt and those old jets. I now shot a Glock 45 and dive with Apollo bio-fin XT's with spring straps. Times change.

DA Aquamaster
March 10th, 2008, 10:19 AM
9mm ball ammo isn't stopping the crazies. The Geneva convention means that the last 100 years of ammunition development are denied to soldiers in combat.I agree with you, and it is a situation that makes the 230 gr slug of the .45 even more appealing.

I spoke with a visiting thoracic surgeon with loads of gunshot wound experience (something over 1500) and his opinion was that in terms of handgun inflicted wounds, nothing tore people up worse than a 230 grain FMJ. It has a combination of diameter, momentum and optimum penetration that seems to do a real number on people and it does it with surprising consistency, even in comparision to smaller, faster hollow points.

And its performance in comparison to 9mm/38 caliber pistol bullets is no real surprise - the .45 ACP was adopted because the .38 was not getting the job done against Philipino rebels.

Personally, I think the prohibilition against expanding bullets is a bit stupid. After all we have for the last 40 years been designing 5.56mm NATO bullets that yaw, tumble and fragment to create wound channels that are every bit as drastic as a soft point or hollow point bullet would inflict and the British studied the effect post WWI and decided that .276 was the optimum diameter in terms of the combined effects of energy, velocity and yaw and tumbling. And the US is again not surprisingly considering a 6.8mm round for the same reasons.

If any one were serious about limiting lethality they would require bullets to have exit wounds no larger than the entrance wounds - and maybe go one farther and make every one use those darts with the rubber suction cups on the end.

Blackwood
March 10th, 2008, 11:46 AM
Thanks again for all the replies - great info (on both fins and guns). I have been a rec (ow) diver for > 15 years but want to start getting into some basic tech stuff like wrecks. It seems like the jet fin is a great all around fin - and the fin of choice for the hard core techies...

I think I'm gonna give em a shot - especially since I dive in CA and wear lots of rubber.

Ever dive redondo? If you, you can borrow a pair. I have both the XLs and the XXLs (which are basically fins with a planet sized pocket attached to them).


edit: and, FWIW, a I love Kimber 1911 pistols.

agilis
March 10th, 2008, 12:48 PM
For clarification, I am the poster who mentioned accuracy within a two inch ring at 50 feet. This, of course, is freehand, and reflects my own limitations, not the Colt's. From a sandbag rest, I can do better, and the pistol much better than that.
The late great Elmer Keith describes hitting man-sized targets with a 1911 at 1000 yards. He fired at about a 45 degree elevation in the desert, observing where the puffs of sand indicated a hit. From a semi-reclining stance he then adjusted the angle and windage, "just like a battleship" until he was able to place more than half his shots into "a bushel basket" more than 1/2 mile away.
When my hand was steadier , I could hit quarters at 100 feet. I once ran a string that cost me $8.50 before I missed. I'm including the cost of the surplus military FMJ ammo, of course. I havent mentioned the mechanical and aesthetic beauty of my 1911, with its brilliant small parts and deep fired blue, but that is another issue.

"A thing of beauty is a joy forever" (John Keats)

Giff
March 10th, 2008, 01:01 PM
Whats wrong with cocked and locked? They are designed to be carried that way and are perfectly safe.

Absolutely! If you're not carrying a pistol in such a way as to be able to draw and fire, you have no reason to even carry! The 1911 has multiple active safeties vs. the single "safety" that the Glock uses. Heck, there are hundreds of cases every year of NDs from LEOs using the Glock.

I do appreciate the analogy and I think it is spot on. Yes, there are newer pistols and newer fins out there, but the old "classics" definitely still have a place in today's world. They might both need a bit more care than more modern variants (tweaks and lube on the 1911 and taking better care of rubber vs. polys) then go for the Jets and 1911s

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/giffmann/glockv1911.jpg

Air On
March 10th, 2008, 01:27 PM
I look at it this way, I purchased a pair of classic black jet fins for under $50... They work great.
One of the dive magazines did a big test this last year and the classic blacks were in the top 5 of the group of tested fins.

So lets think about this a minute... The Jet fins are rated at the same level (or higher) as the high tech modern split/hinge/paddle style fins that cost around $150-$200 a pair.

In my book that appears to be a lot of gimic bs and over pricing then.
4 pairs of good basic fins VS 1 pair of fins that have a gimic.... Hmmmm.

Then again i don't like brightly colored gear either... so thats less reason to buy the cool gimicy gear.

In the case of simple, cost effective, reliable, durrable... I think the Classic black Rocket/Jet fins are really more like a Glock then a 1911.

Personaly I have a Taurus PT-945 (.45) (1911 clone) Stainless and a Glock 22 (.40)... I carry the Glock and keep the 1911 clone on the gun safe.

I upgraded to Trijicon sights on the Glock.
I upgraded to springs on my Jets.

I'd say these are the most similar in comparison.
The Jet fins just happened to evolve sooner then the Glock's simple/functional application.

Another interesting observation.... People are always trying to turn their Glocks INTO 1911 by adding lots of things onto them. Just like they keep adding crap to the basic fins without really inproving them.

Another similarity,
I've had a number of people ask if they could buy my Fins and my Glock after seeing them in use...lol

Just my opinion... but I'll take simple and cost effective.

sharky60
March 10th, 2008, 05:07 PM
I've been using ScubaPro Jetfins for over 20 years. For me, they work the best. I've occaitionally tried others, but always came back to the jetfins. I actually have a back up pair!

Sure, they're heavy and big, which doesn't make them the best traveling fins, but I get all the power I need from them when I need it and as well as all the subtleties I need for frog kicks, fanning and backing up.

Nemrod
March 10th, 2008, 07:33 PM
I've been using ScubaPro Jetfins for over 20 years. For me, they work the best. I've occaitionally tried others, but always came back to the jetfins. I actually have a back up pair!

Sure, they're heavy and big, which doesn't make them the best traveling fins, but I get all the power I need from them when I need it and as well as all the subtleties I need for frog kicks, fanning and backing up.


I also have a backup pair, brand spank'n new still in the bag for two years now. Just in case mine succumb to some disater like a meteor strike. I expect the Jet to pas away soon, thus the extra spare pair.

N

ereediver
March 11th, 2008, 12:36 AM
Giffman, you don't much about Glocks do ya? It actually has three mechanisms to prevent unintentional dis-charge. If you pull the trigger, It goes bang. If you dont, it won't. Anyway not to start a fight, just for your information. This is a SCUBA room anyway.:D Just in my personal opinion drawing a holstered weapon with a correct me if I am wrong 3 pound trigger pull, it may be less "especially Cops" scares the %^&( out of me. And I think your hundreds of AD's is a bit over inflated. P.S. I don't believe in AD's Handguns are some of the finest machines made today. 99 percent of the safties work. 98.9 percent of the time you pull the trigger it goes bang. The ones that don't are usually shooter or ammo related, so if it goes bang when you don't want it too, it means you ^&&*up. Training issue. Back to Scuba

nadwidny
March 11th, 2008, 12:43 AM
I think the mods need to jump into this thread immediately and clean it up. I counted at least 3 posts that didn't have any mention of guns in them.

DA Aquamaster
March 11th, 2008, 08:32 AM
Giffman, you don't much about Glocks do ya? It actually has three mechanisms to prevent unintentional dis-charge. If you pull the trigger, It goes bang. If you dont, it won't. Anyway not to start a fight, just for your information. This is a SCUBA room anyway.:D Just in my personal opinion drawing a holstered weapon with a correct me if I am wrong 3 pound trigger pull, it may be less "especially Cops" scares the %^&( out of me. And I think your hundreds of AD's is a bit over inflated. P.S. I don't believe in AD's Handguns are some of the finest machines made today. 99 percent of the safties work. 98.9 percent of the time you pull the trigger it goes bang. The ones that don't are usually shooter or ammo related, so if it goes bang when you don't want it too, it means you ^&&*up. Training issue. Back to ScubaGenerally on a carry gun 6 lbs is the norm and 4 lbs is about the minimum any armorer would accept. I doubt you'd ever find an LEO with an armorer approved weapon with less than a 4 lb trigger.

I have 4 lb triggers on the 1911's I use in practical pistol competition but most people think they are lighter as the pull is short and very crisp (you can get great triggers on the 1911).

But that aside, I agree with you that AD's are a training issue. I don't think it matters that much what trigger or safety systmes you have if you never point the weapon at something you don't want to shoot and never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot. With many DA autos and revolvers, there is a degree of slack that can be taken up in either SA or DA mode, and it can be a very bad habit to take up that slack before you are ready to fire. Under stress, it creates the potential to pull harder than you intend and in effect do a lot more than take up the slack.

In that regard however, I'd argue that the consistent trigger pull on a single action like the 1911 is potentially safer, even if it is lighter. I'd also argue that the first shot accuracy is much higher due to the shorter, lighter and crisper trigger pull. Compared to a pistol that operates in both DA/SA modes, I'd argue that the second shot is much more consistent as the trigger pull is the same from shot 1 to shot 2.

And "fin control" with jets is way better than most fins, especially split fins.

Air On
March 11th, 2008, 11:55 AM
I also have a backup pair, brand spank'n new still in the bag for two years now. Just in case mine succumb to some disater like a meteor strike. I expect the Jet to pas away soon, thus the extra spare pair.

N

Jets pass away! Hell no!!! They still use them for the Navy and Military.

Besides if they quit making them, i say we contact the jet and rocket mauf.s and buy the molds and rubber formulas. We could all chip in a little bit and start the BlackFin Company or something.

We could just add springs by default perhaps?

The only custom change up could be giving people the option to plaster cast their foot in their boots and making a custom foot pocket that glues into the XL foot pocket or something for the people that HAVE to tweak with thier fins or have a problem with sloppy fits.

I wonder if recycled tire rubber could be used? That might make it a Green company too?

Anyone know insustrial chemistry that could consult on this?

SparticleBrane
March 11th, 2008, 12:03 PM
Might be nice to have a few extra pairs hanging around the house. LeisurePro has them for $65 per pair -- cheapest price for new Jets that I've seen.

vshearer
March 11th, 2008, 12:05 PM
Does anyone find it odd how many divers here shoot as well? :)

I sold my Colt Commander. Still have two Springfields (one a 1911 Govt.) a Sig and a Glock 17L.

DA Aquamaster
March 11th, 2008, 05:11 PM
I have noted a connection between divers and flyers as well as divers and shooters.

ereediver
March 11th, 2008, 05:23 PM
DA, I will agree that the Glock trigger especially the New York trigger is far from smooth. Yes the 1911 are a joy to shoot, and by that easier to shoot more acurately. My issue with single actions is with the holster, both draw and re-holster especially under stress. Double/ singles can be as well if one forgets to de-cock. Training issues, but with limited time, budget, and sometimes desire to learn. KISS works. If I weren't spending my money on dive gear mow, I might get me a 1911. Back to that. Nobody had an answer for what size fin pocket do you need for a size 9 rock boot. Looking into going Dry in the future, from what I have read, I'll probably have to get fins to fit. Is extra large to big? Suggestions. I know I could go to my LDS, but ebay had some decent jets cheap. Should they come by again I would like to be prepared.

DA Aquamaster
March 11th, 2008, 07:48 PM
I am not sure I understand the unholstering/reholstering issues.

When I pull a 1911 out and point it down range the thumb sweeps the safety off. You can't take the safety off at all with the thumb with a properly designed holster until it is out of the holster.

If I engage the safety of a 1911 and reholster it with my finger on the trigger, nothing happens.
What happens if I reholster a Glock with my finger on the trigger?

One area where jet fins and 1911's differ is that the 1911 fits most hands pretty well and points pretty well. The Jet fin on the other hand has a foot pocket that fits no one real well as it is to narrow and too square shaped.

cactus frogman
March 11th, 2008, 08:07 PM
I own a springfield armory 1911millspec. Best gun i own.I have shot about thousand rounds through it and no jammings. Very accurate and reliable.

RonzoTheGreat
March 11th, 2008, 09:30 PM
seems like (until the end here) very few people really focused on the fact that the user means everything. put turtles on a beginner and mares volo on an expert and guess who will have tighter trim? who will have more momentum with less effort? put a .45 in a new shooters hands and 1911 in the S shooter's ... blah blah blah ... but guess what ... a sharpshooter will make kill shots with a 9mm just as effectively with a 9mm, 1911, or .40. (so what ever) The turtles (and jets) are durable and well tested ... you CANT go wrong, but i am 99.99% sure if you talk to people, someone will let you try them out ... (i'd like to fire a kimber before dropping a grand on one)

best of luck and leisurepro has the turtles cheapest ... and did anyone recmnd springs?

Nemrod
March 11th, 2008, 09:31 PM
I have noted a connection between divers and flyers as well as divers and shooters.


That is because these are all typical "guy" things to do. Every guy wants to scuba dive because they get to wear big watches, every guy wants to fly airplanes because they get to wear both big watches and dark sunglasses and as to shooting, all guys like to blow up stuff, I know I do. It is all about impressing women, I know this because I am a keen observer of human behavoir.

Yo, y'all don't be surprised when the last black pair of Jets slips from the clearence wall.

N

ereediver
March 12th, 2008, 01:42 AM
I am not sure I understand the unholstering/reholstering issues.

When I pull a 1911 out and point it down range the thumb sweeps the safety off. You can't take the safety off at all with the thumb with a properly designed holster until it is out of the holster.

If I engage the safety of a 1911 and reholster it with my finger on the trigger, nothing happens.
What happens if I reholster a Glock with my finger on the trigger?

One area where jet fins and 1911's differ is that the 1911 fits most hands pretty well and points pretty well. The Jet fin on the other hand has a foot pocket that fits no one real well as it is to narrow and too square shaped.

Well without getting into the dynamicis of stress and it's effects on the body, Removing a safety is a fine motor skill, which diminishes with stress. As does manual dexterity. In a time of stress say when one would jump out of a car for some unknown reason on a traffic stop at 0 dark 30. One may react by unholstering your sidearm. Should the idiot escalate by moving his hand toward his back, waist ,or inside a jacket, This is where the issue takes place. Said idiot goes for weapon, did I unholster and remove the safety 3000 times or more prior to this, What is generally accepted as the number of repetitions required to make a motor skill automatic, so that I can fire. Or I place may finger on trigger, but numb nuts pulls a wallet. 4 pounds of pressure is real easy when one am ramped up. Then did you remember to re-engage the safety before holstering. That AD has happened, on tape with the suspect on the ground being hand cuffed, and no it was not me. So that in a nut shell is my concern. Hope that helps. You

Kbear
March 12th, 2008, 03:20 AM
What happens if I reholster a Glock with my finger on the trigger?

If the threat is neutralized, why would your finger be still on the trigger? If you think there is a possible threat still out there, you wouldn't re-holster your gun.

I had to draw on a bear once when hunting, and believe me, the gun didn't get re-holstered for a very long time, even after he moved out of sight. But my finger wasn't on the trigger after he left my sight.

/G20, G21, and G19 and love them all.

Also have a pair of split and jet fins. Different fins for different types of dives. Split for rec, no chance of silting, and jet for silty bottoms.

Btw, I :heart: this thread.

Cyclops_Diver
March 12th, 2008, 04:01 AM
This is an awesome thread!

Kimber TLE/RL .45 ACP for me when I'm not carrying the SIG229 SAS .40.

Even though I can drive nails with the 9mm Beretta 92FS, it just doesnt match up given stress and even mild panic in the event of a altercation. I've seen people shrug off that 9mm round...it's amazing what the enemy can do when THEY are hyped on adrenaline!

I also have my Jets and some Atomic Aquatics splits. I cannot remember the last time the splits were in the water.

C'mon, lets hear from some more Diving Shooters!!

:D:popcorn:

james croft
March 12th, 2008, 08:44 AM
Yeah, this has been a good thread. Many good points by knowlegable shooters. As a Glock armorer I am aware of AD's by Glock users. Nothing in the design of the Glock is dangerous. AD's were caused by folks pulling the trigger. Keep your finger indexed along the frame until you shoot. Keep it out of the trigger guard until then. New York triggers are a piss poor cure for poorly trained police officers who can't learn this simple lesson. If you cannot do this it is juxt a matter of time before you shoot a hole in your jets when reholstering.

Giff
March 12th, 2008, 09:24 AM
Giffman, you don't much about Glocks do ya? It actually has three mechanisms to prevent unintentional dis-charge. If you pull the trigger, It goes bang. If you dont, it won't. Anyway not to start a fight, just for your information. This is a SCUBA room anyway.:D Just in my personal opinion drawing a holstered weapon with a correct me if I am wrong 3 pound trigger pull, it may be less "especially Cops" scares the %^&( out of me. And I think your hundreds of AD's is a bit over inflated. P.S. I don't believe in AD's Handguns are some of the finest machines made today. 99 percent of the safties work. 98.9 percent of the time you pull the trigger it goes bang. The ones that don't are usually shooter or ammo related, so if it goes bang when you don't want it too, it means you ^&&*up. Training issue. Back to Scuba

Had a G-17 and sold it. Own a G-19 I carry because I consider it "disposable". If, God forbid, I am in a situation where I need to fire, I'd much rather surrender a Glock than my 1911. Heck, the work Chuck Rogers did on my frame is worth more than I paid for my G-19!

My point was that Cocked and Locked is NO MORE dangerous than carrying a Glock. Whatever weapon one carries requires training. To just go buy a pistol and decide to carry it without ever training with it, or even running some Self Defense loads through it is assinine. One could say it is as crazy as going diving without proper training. For the very same reason we spend time at the pool getting to know our equipment, I spend time at the range getting to know my weapons. I know my limitations and abilities with every weapon I own.

All that being said, I MUCH prefer the elegance and the feel of a 1911 in my hands. So much so that I'm even bringing Larry Vickers to Omaha for a 1911 pistolsmith course. Not cheap, by any means, but the experience will be fantastic and I will leave understanding the 1911 pistol in a way that I never could without such tutelage. Perhaps one day, in the near future, I can sink similar cash into my diving.

Giff

David P
March 12th, 2008, 09:55 AM
With a thread title like " Jet Fins Vs Colt 1911" I thought it was going to be like I want to see a tank explode and have a video of someone blasting their jets.... too bad

Sig P226 and Para Ordinance P14

james croft
March 12th, 2008, 10:04 AM
Had a G-17 and sold it. Own a G-19 I carry because I consider it "disposable". If, God forbid, I am in a situation where I need to fire, I'd much rather surrender a Glock than my 1911. Heck, the work Chuck Rogers did on my frame is worth more than I paid for my G-19!


Giff


Yeah, it would suck to have to file a notch into a nice 1911. With the Glock you could burn one in with a woodburner.

SlowRain
March 12th, 2008, 10:33 AM
Have to agree with some of the views...I was in law enforcement for 11 years. This was long enough ago that departments were at the time stuck on the "autos are unreliable" mentality, however we did get that changed. 5 of my years were as a K9 officer in the pacific northwest, and you kept running across people who were far better armed than you. You wouldn't believe some of the responses we got from the department policy board when we lobbied for a change to semi-autos.

One I will never forget: "You will be carrying different ammunition than other officers. So if you are involved in an engagement where an officer has run out of ammunition, you won't be able to share your ammunition with them." Our response: "If we are in that prolonged an engagement, and you have used your ammunition, I am not going to give you any of mine to begin with, further, the idea of "throwing someone ammunition" in the middle of a situation where bullets are flying is nothing short of absurd." (Bear in mind that 90%+ of police gunfights involve 3-4 shots fired total, and are over in seconds). We did in the end, win our argument, and the entire department ended up changing over.

After 2 incidents it became apparent (which some of us knew from the start) that the 9mm leaves a lot to be desired in terms of stopping power. When you have 2 quarts of adreneline pumping through a human, you would be surprised at what they can function with. On the other hand, a 45 definitely has the ability to stop someone in their tracks, given proper shot placement.

I have a 1911, however it is pretty much a "keeper" which I have more for the value than anything else. I have a Springfield Arms XD 45. Nice having a pistol that holds 14 rounds of 45.

But my household defense weapon? Mossberg 930 SPX 12 gauge (tactical shotgun) with 00 buckshot.

Just a little FYI for those of you with a little "excess bravado". Be very careful what you post/email/express in regards to your viewpoints on the use of firearms in defense situations. God forbid you ever are put into the situation where you actually are involved in a shooting of any kind, especially a fatal one. You will go through a legal proceeding to determine if the homicide you committed is justifiable or not...and those things can be brought in as evidence going to state of mind, and if you should be placed on trial, again they will be brought to light. You REALLY don't want to have to deal with that sort of ammunition in the hands of a skilled attorney. Having unfortunately been through it, it is not a pleasant affair for police officers, let alone civilians. And trust me, even if you get through the criminal portion of the affair, you will without fail, be sued in civil court...and those kinds of statements (and they WILL subpeona ALL email, text messages, etc.) will be your undoing. Its one thing to be an active duty police officer where at least you have some protection regarding civil liability by the organization you work for...it is an entirely different matter when you are simply a citizen and have to foot the bill yourself.

Air On
March 12th, 2008, 03:16 PM
Good points SlowRain. I remember back in the early 90s helping train police for Glock's and double action shooting... That has to be one of the scariest experiences I've had in my life.

While I stilled lived in the Pacific Northwest in a town near the Canadian border.
Our Martial arts class was joined by local law enforcment for their shooting checkout tests and training! The martial arts class was only allowed 2 tries to pass the shootin test... The police were giving unlimited attempts. ALL the MA students passed by thier second try, most passed on their first... Over half of the Poilce took 4-5 times... one of the guys took over 11 tries and ended up having to mooch ammo off the MA students to complete his testing... I was not feeling so good about the idea the LE is supposed to protect the community at that point.

Take the time to train and KNOW your firearms and thier holisters! Most people can't even get their fire arms out to be used for self defence. Let alone the people that have to cock the weapon or forget about the safeties... I'll leave the finger in the trigger issues alone at this point.

Reguarding the legal issues also... What do you think happens if you do have to shoot someone... and you have a MODIFIED the weapon? Even adding safety features is MODIFIED from stock. Now all the sudden You have assasinated someone with as weapon you obviously have obsessive behavior with, having taken time end expence to modify and convert into a killing machine...

Think thats extream? Its not I've seen it happen a number of times over the years.

Ported barrels, custom colors, custom grips, custom triggers, even getting it etched with some custom image, like your grandfathers hunting rifle might have been engraved... All gets turned into a gun obsessive wack job looking to kill people.

Here is another thing that guns and scuba have in common... Think your insurance is going to cover you if you've done something custom to your dive equipment that changes its stock design?
Might want to look into that a little bit... Get killed playing with that homemade rebreather and your family most likely won't see a penny from your life insurance and be paying for your funeral out of pocket!

A shot gun IS the best weapon for home defence. Think its because of the fire power?, Think its the spead or the shot? NO... Its because your responsible for your bullets until they come to a full stop. That .45 or even a 9mm ball ammo will pass right through walls of your house AND the nieghbors. The soft lead shot won't hurt/kill the nieghbors as easily.

Take this actual senerio, the dad wakes up to a noise in the house... Grabs his 9mm from the night stand and creeps into the hallway. He sees a stranger in the hall and unloads the entire weapon at the intruder... missing him with ALL the shots. The intruder breaks for the back of the house and sliding door, he excapes... Now the dad hears his kids screaming. Rushing into his childrens room (across from the master bed room door) He discovers that ALL of the 9mm rounds have pretty much destroyed the kids room... Luckly the height the ideot was shooting was higher then the sleeping childrens beds... Not so lucky was the family vehicles in the front of the house... Or the neighbor across the street with front windows and door were broken or full of holes. Again...luckily no person was hit. Then I get hired by his ex-wife to investigate him and get her full custody...

So the moral is, if you don't use your head, don't get propertly trained and practice... But like to tinker with your equipment and customise it. Odds are your going to get yourself in trouble.

Keep it stock, keep it simple, keep it safe.

james croft
March 12th, 2008, 09:29 PM
Or you can helicopter kick the intruder to bits with you 1970 jet fins with aftermarket trijicon spring straps and teach him a lesson he will never forget.

DA Aquamaster
March 12th, 2008, 09:37 PM
Well without getting into the dynamicis of stress and it's effects on the body, Removing a safety is a fine motor skill, which diminishes with stress. As does manual dexterity. In a time of stress say when one would jump out of a car for some unknown reason on a traffic stop at 0 dark 30. One may react by unholstering your sidearm. Should the idiot escalate by moving his hand toward his back, waist ,or inside a jacket, This is where the issue takes place. Said idiot goes for weapon, did I unholster and remove the safety 3000 times or more prior to this, What is generally accepted as the number of repetitions required to make a motor skill automatic, so that I can fire. Or I place may finger on trigger, but numb nuts pulls a wallet. 4 pounds of pressure is real easy when one am ramped up. Then did you remember to re-engage the safety before holstering. That AD has happened, on tape with the suspect on the ground being hand cuffed, and no it was not me. So that in a nut shell is my concern. Hope that helps. YouOk...as you said before - a training issue.

With proper training and currency, I'd argue holstering and reholstering a 1911 is no less safe. Frankly as long as your finger is not inside the guard it will not go off even if the safety is not engaged, and once your hand begins to lift off the grip safety it adds another level of safety.

-----

I agree that both 9mm and .45 caliber bullets will penetrate a lot more walls than you'd like in a home defense situation - and that includes hollow points as when it impacts a wall the point will plug with sheet rock and it effectively becomes a flat point. That said a 9mm will probably penetrate more than a .45.

In a confined space a .45 also has an edge in terms of muzzle blast as it is generally less sharp than a 9mm and the projectile is also subsonic. Muzzle flash is also usually a lot less with a .45 which can be a factor at night.

A shot gun is a great indoor choice and if properly designed for home defense it will be short and fast handling - most people can get lead on target quicker at short range with a shotgun than a pistol. And in addition to being able to be loaded with smaller shot that will not overpenetrate, the muzzle blast is again fairly low frequency and not as deafening.

One other home defense option is a 5.56mm AR-15. With a lightly constructed bullet, it will penetrate one wall fairly cleanly but destabilizes and/or fragments with little pentration beyond that compared to a 9mm. Not as nice as a shotgun, but still better than the average 9mm. The downside is that a 16" or 20" barrelled AR fired in a cofined space is LOUD and will leave you yelling "what?" for a while if hearing protection is not used.

Jet fins on the other hand are not all that great for home defense, but they are very quiet and routinely pentrate thousands of feet in caves while both the 9mm and .45 would only penetrate a few feet.

Papa Steve
March 12th, 2008, 10:20 PM
Just a little FYI for those of you with a little "excess bravado". Be very careful what you post/email/express in regards to your viewpoints on the use of firearms in defense situations. God forbid you ever are put into the situation where you actually are involved in a shooting of any kind, especially a fatal one. You will go through a legal proceeding to determine if the homicide you committed is justifiable or not...and those things can be brought in as evidence going to state of mind, and if you should be placed on trial, again they will be brought to light. You REALLY don't want to have to deal with that sort of ammunition in the hands of a skilled attorney. Having unfortunately been through it, it is not a pleasant affair for police officers, let alone civilians. And trust me, even if you get through the criminal portion of the affair, you will without fail, be sued in civil court...and those kinds of statements (and they WILL subpeona ALL email, text messages, etc.) will be your undoing. Its one thing to be an active duty police officer where at least you have some protection regarding civil liability by the organization you work for...it is an entirely different matter when you are simply a citizen and have to foot the bill yourself.

This is an excellent point. I can't imagine the nightmare this would be. Fortunately, Texas has followed Florida in passing what has become known as the Castle Law. It states that if you are not found criminally liable in a shooting you can't be sued in civil court.
God Bless Texas!

DA Aquamaster
March 13th, 2008, 06:00 AM
It has happened where an intruder gets shot by the home owner and then sues the homeowner because he or she shot the criminal during the home invasion crime. makes zero sense but it happens.

SlowRain
March 13th, 2008, 08:23 AM
This is an excellent point. I can't imagine the nightmare this would be. Fortunately, Texas has followed Florida in passing what has become known as the Castle Law. It states that if you are not found criminally liable in a shooting you can't be sued in civil court.
God Bless Texas!

I know that Wyoming has the same bill ready for signature by the Gov. Would be interesting to find out while you could not be sued in state court, if you could still be sued in Federal Court under that legal catch-all called violation of civil rights. (Probably so).

As for the customization of firearms....that might be an issue, but I have found most people that are having that sort of work done usually are involved in IPSC or 3-gun shooting competitions...and if that is the case, then gun customization really isn't a leg anyone could depend on using against you.

I agree with the stupidity of the idea of someone who has broken into your home, (and remember before you shoot, that person must be demonstrating the intent to do you/yours bodily harm) and you have shot can sue you...but they often do. Sure, maybe they don't win, but you will pay a small fortune in attorney's fees to ensure they don't. Wait a minute...this has gotten way off track!

Okay...Jet Fins would never sue you whether you shot them or not.

bfw
March 13th, 2008, 11:38 PM
I'm not a fan of the 9mm either for that reason. .40 cal is a great cross between velocity and weight.... That's why most LE agencies issue them now... Thanks for replies so far.

The .40 cal round was developed because female FBI agents couldn't handle the recoil of the 10mm round.

DA Aquamaster
March 14th, 2008, 08:58 AM
Giffman, you don't much about Glocks do ya? It actually has three mechanisms to prevent unintentional dis-charge. If you pull the trigger, It goes bang. If you dont, it won't. ...snip...Handguns are some of the finest machines made today. 99 percent of the safties work. 98.9 percent of the time you pull the trigger it goes bang. The ones that don't are usually shooter or ammo related, so if it goes bang when you don't want it too, it means you ^&&*up. Training issue. Back to ScubaAfter extensive research I have discovered you are in fact correct. Glock's are so easy to shoot a Chimp can do it.

http://g4rg4ntu4.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/chimpanzee_glock.jpg

Chimp's on the other hand cannot shoot 1911's or use Jet Fins.

DA Aquamaster
March 14th, 2008, 09:11 AM
The .40 cal round was developed because female FBI agents couldn't handle the recoil of the 10mm round.To be fair, a lot of male FBI agents could not shoot it well either. The 10mm has the quicker recoil impulse of comparatively high velocity 9mm with the heavier recoil of a .45. When that is combined with the added slide velocity compared to either a 9mm or .45 ACP in any given pistol, the result is a lot nastier to shoot than a 9mm, a .40 S&W or a .45 ACP.

I shoot a lot and I don't like the 10mm all that much, and I still own a .400 corbon barrel that will probably never get used again as that round is even sharper in recoil and is a real slide beater. In addition, the really high velocity 10mm's tend to overpentrate and much of the extra energy they have is wasted. For an LEO who is not a shooter and qualifies only 2-4 times per year and shoots maybe 500 rounds per year rather than 500 rounds per month or even weekend, the .40 Short and Whimpy is a far better choice in .40 caliber.

On the other hand, , if you ignore the incredibily useless FBI windshield penetration requirement, the .45 ACP does everything else better than the .40 S&W and is manageable by nearly everyone who can shoot a 9mm or 10mm without significantly more training. And if you put the .45 ACP in a glock, a chimp could probably shoot it.

Both male and female FBI agents can also shoot 1911's and use Jetfins. Navy Seals however can use both at the same time.

Papa Steve
March 14th, 2008, 11:13 AM
Both male and female FBI agents can also shoot 1911's and use Jetfins. Navy Seals however can use both at the same time.

And remember, though Chuck Norris uses Jetfins, he does not shoot a 1911. He doesn't need it . . .he kills with a stare.

Bspurr13
March 15th, 2008, 03:26 AM
Thanks everyone for making this a VERY fun and informative thread... Jet fins are on the way - and I think I may have had a LEMON of a 1911 (I'm still keeping my .375 mag in my nightstand and a 12ga in the closet though).

AIR ON… What type of martial arts are you into? The reason I ask is, I’ve been into MA since teen years (Kung **, Karate and in adult life – Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, MT kick boxing and MMA) and I have not heard of a MA system that incorporates firearms… Not only use, but instruction…. That’s awesome!

Thanks again to all,
Brett

Black_3000psi
March 15th, 2008, 04:42 AM
first of all divers use fins. flipper is a dolphin from an old t.v show. Jet fins are truly worth their weight in gold. although they do take some getting used to but once you have mastered them you will find them unchallenged by any other fin in any conditions. the biggest mistake people make with them is kicking from the knee down. calf will become tired and rapidly tire the diver.kicking from the hip (which many divers fail to do) is a must. many people have asked me how I was able to beat the current coming off of diamond head while shore diving a ship wreck 1 mile off shore. at first I thought I was simply a strong swimmer, that is until one of my jet fins came up missing, I have since tried every other set of fins in our dive shop (all our jet fins sale out very fast) and I have come to the conclusion that jet fins have no equal. so until the next shipment comes in I dive with one jet fin on my power leg and a stiff scuba pro on my left. true story. dont believe me ask my boss waikiki diver 808-922-2121

DA Aquamaster
March 15th, 2008, 04:00 PM
first of all divers use fins. flipper is a dolphin from an old t.v show. I don't agree. I am pretty sure I remember Mike Nelson on Sea Hunt say things all the time like "Say...could you hand my my flippers" when he wanted someone to hand him his fins. So, at least in the old days, divers used flippers.

Of course, "Jet Flippers" would have sounded stupid so Scubapro can be given a pass on that transgression, where as all the godless heathens that have forsaken The One True Combat Handgun, the 1911, will surely spend all eternity in hell doing immediate action drills on their Glocks and/or wondernines.

Hickdive
March 15th, 2008, 07:08 PM
Well, I'm prepared to say that if you come at me with a pair of jet fins and I have a model 1911 Colt, I'll win. For a start, you can't walk that quickly in ANY fins and. for seconds, even an unloaded Colt makes a mighty fine club.

Next up: a pair of 3mm Scubapro gloves versus the Callaway 9 iron.

Nemrod
March 15th, 2008, 07:30 PM
I had been led to believe that Jet Fins were bullet proof. My testing now indicates that a Glock with 40S&W will penetrate Jet Fins. However, it does appear that subsequent tests of the impervious generic Jet flippers proves that a few .40 caliber holes in them does not seem to harm their performance and only adds to their macho look.
N

DA Aquamaster
March 16th, 2008, 09:31 PM
Yes...you need the greater stopping power of a .45 ACP to incapacitate a pair of Jet Fins.

ZzzKing
March 16th, 2008, 10:30 PM
That is because these are all typical "guy" things to do. Every guy wants to scuba dive because they get to wear big watches, every guy wants to fly airplanes because they get to wear both big watches and dark sunglasses and as to shooting, all guys like to blow up stuff, I know I do. It is all about impressing women, I know this because I am a keen observer of human behavoir.

Yo, y'all don't be surprised when the last black pair of Jets slips from the clearence wall.

N

Nemrod, you fool! Everyone knows that guys get into scuba diving because they get to strap a huge honkin' knife on their leg. It has nothing to do with watches.

This thread is pretty much useless so far because no one has really done an apples to apples comparison so I took it on myself to do one.

First, out to the quarry. I gotta say that my XL Jets were very solid. Good propulsion and excellent control. Proper trim with drysuit. The 1911's were a completely different story. No propulsion whatsoever and they made me tremendously foot heavy. Back kick, helicopter turn, frog kick, it didn't matter. I wasn't going anywhere. In addition, I had to break both guns down and completely dry them out and clean and oil them afterwards. The jets, just a quick rinse and they were good to go.

Now off to the range. The 1911 shown here as expected. The Jets did better than expected though. I swapped the spring straps for some heavy bungee and installed a guide for the homemade darts I had fabricated. Although it didn't have the knockdown power of the .45, it did produce a reasonable group at 25'.

Bottom line, Jets beat Colts. :D

Garrobo
March 17th, 2008, 10:31 AM
The .40 was developed for the FBI to replace the 9mm because the FBI wanted a round which they thought would equal the knockdown power of the .45 ACP (yet would not be the .45 ACP) since the 9mm wasn't doing the job, so that they would not have to go through the embarrassment of admitting that they made a big mistake by changing over from the .45ACP in the first place. Typical bureaucratic foot-shuffling.

Blackwood
March 17th, 2008, 11:42 AM
AIR ON… What type of martial arts are you into? The reason I ask is, I’ve been into MA since teen years (Kung **, Karate and in adult life – Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, MT kick boxing and MMA)


I know that wasn't directed towards me, but I'll join in.

I trained in muay thai for many years, and later crossed over to jeet kune do (taught by a gracie BJJ black belt) for a while. I haven't done anything recently.

Bspurr13
March 17th, 2008, 11:56 AM
Was That Black Belt Roy Harris by chance (he's a 3rd or 4th degree BJJ BB - and also a JKD guy)?

Brett

Air On
March 17th, 2008, 06:48 PM
Yes...you need the greater stopping power of a .45 ACP to incapacitate a pair of Jet Fins.

Actualy a few .45 holes create hand holes to hang the fins by.
No actual reduction in performance unless it damages a strap or the side ribs of the fins...


Skipping back a number of posts...
And yes Fins not flippers... Terms have evolved a bit over time.
I don't refer to my regs, valves, and tank equipment as an Aqualung... do you?

Also.. Since when has Hollywood ever been acurate in how they portray things?

When was the last time you pulled out a 12 inch dive knife and battled sharks and giant squid?

Air On
March 17th, 2008, 06:57 PM
The .40 was developed for the FBI to replace the 9mm because the FBI wanted a round which they thought would equal the knockdown power of the .45 ACP (yet would not be the .45 ACP) since the 9mm wasn't doing the job, so that they would not have to go through the embarrassment of admitting that they made a big mistake by changing over from the .45ACP in the first place. Typical bureaucratic foot-shuffling.


Actually that was the 10mm. It was too hot of a load for the agents to comfortably fire. 9mm was know to be too light of a round.

10mm was tested to try replacing the .45 and comply with international ammo sizes.
.40 S&W was a cut down version (less powder). You can get .40s&w in two load variations... 180 grain and over (fast like 9mm) or 165 and lower (.45 speed but more accurate and < 20 feet away)

All the rounds penetrate the same (accept the 10mm ball) due to engineering and tryin to prevent over penetration. They kinetic energy transfer and wound cannals are hotly depated though.

Who recalls why .45 was created?
Hint: They practice Escrima.

Cyclops_Diver
March 17th, 2008, 09:24 PM
History of the .45 ACP...

Long story short, because I don't feel like pontificating, was the .45 ACP came around in 1905 with the Colt Model 1905. Browning modified his .41 caliber cartrige when the US Calvary asked for a .45 caliber equivalent handgun because their .38 Long Colt was not effective against the Moro Rebellion Warriors in the Phillipine-American war.

Funny...Here we are over a century later and the military is trying to tactfully (and discreetly I assume) go back to the .45 ACP cartridge because the 9mm round has been found to be less than effective against armed opponents in Iraq and Afghanistan...

I guess they haven't learned that whole "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." thing.

Semper Fi to my forty-five!

mavdog
March 17th, 2008, 11:09 PM
Semper Fi to my forty-five!
ouuu rauh

mempilot
March 17th, 2008, 11:59 PM
I have noted a connection between divers and flyers as well as divers and shooters.

How about a diver and flyer that shoots? :D

Jet fins in both large (wet) and x-large (dry).

B737NG/BA146/TC310Q

Berretta 92FS 9mm/Glock 19 9mm/Glock 23 .40/WTB Sig229 .40SW

Love the Jets! Love the BA146! Love the G23! Want to have an affair with the 229!

Don't get to fly the TC310Q much anymore. :(
I can take or leave the B737NG.
Didn't care for the 92FS. G19 was OK but weak.

I must say though, I haven't been shooting in quite a while. :(

mavdog
March 18th, 2008, 12:14 AM
How about a diver that flies, shoots and runs around inside burning buildings cause that job was easier to get than flying after 9/11

Nemrod
March 18th, 2008, 12:50 AM
Actualy a few .45 holes create hand holes to hang the fins by.
No actual reduction in performance unless it damages a strap or the side ribs of the fins...


Skipping back a number of posts...
And yes Fins not flippers... Terms have evolved a bit over time.
I don't refer to my regs, valves, and tank equipment as an Aqualung... do you?

Also.. Since when has Hollywood ever been acurate in how they portray things?

When was the last time you pulled out a 12 inch dive knife and battled sharks and giant squid?


Hmmmm, well, ok, hand me my flippers and check my air on my Aqua Lung will you please?

"Lung" was the generic term, there was the Aqua Lung, Voit Lung, Sportsways Water Lung etc. We called tanks lungs and especially when combined with a twin hose it was a lung set. Still is. You guys got yer terms wrong. Scuba unit per PadI is redundant, proper it is a scuba, self contained underwater breathing APPARATUS, the acronym stands alone.

Besides, I prefer my regulators metal and my guns plastic and my fins rubber, viva le Glock.

Voit Lung:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/9566F7384DC5463C84E59492B32705D2.jpg

N

Cyclops_Diver
March 18th, 2008, 01:26 AM
I've had too many rounds explode in the chamber of Glocks. I don't know much about themanymore after those, but I believe the cause was it's unsupported chamber design and +P rounds. Again...thats a guess after almost a decade. I havent touched a Glock since oh maybe 1998.

Never had a problem with my plastic HK USP .40 though. Still, I sold that for my Kimber.

http://www.pdmall.com/1/1/1%201828.jpg

Bspurr13
March 18th, 2008, 01:45 AM
OK... Back a few posts to divers that shoot and fly....

Bushmaster AR15 w/ M4 upper, Beretta Centurion .40 cal, Ruger GP 100 ss .357 mag, Ruger Redhawk ss .44 mag, Rem 870 12ga pump, etc...

Bell 412 (modern twin engine Huey), Bell 222 (Airwolf helo) - not mine though... I just deal w/ the blood and guts in the back.

DA Aquamaster
March 18th, 2008, 07:02 AM
I have not flown in several years, but now that the kid is out of the house I am thinking about another single seat aerobatic aircraft (I like classic biplanes, so I am thinking maybe a flat wing Pitts like an S-1C or S-D, or even a Smith Mini Plane.)

I have more assault rifles than I probably need (several AR-15's in various M4, M16, M16A1, M16A2, XM-177E2 and varmint configurations, an AR-180, AR-180B, PSL, HK-91, M1 Carbine, SKS, 59/66 and L1A1) and I have a couple of .45's, a couple GP-35's and a CZ-75 that I like to shoot, but since moving to a much more urban area, I shoot a lot less.

In terms of diving my preferences go in opposite directions - very gue'ish tech configuration or vintage doubel hose reg and horsecollar BC.

Nemrod
March 18th, 2008, 10:21 AM
There was a Pitts S1C that I shared a hanger with down at Pearland. I loved flying that Pitts Special, that and the Super Cub.

My Kitfox VI (built by me) and my Cub (part owner and rebuilt by me) on the ramp in route to Oshkosh in about 1996:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0118.jpg

There was a Glock under the seat, not no stink'n 1911. The Jetfins are not very aerodynamic, they stayed at home base, XXXXXXXXX Aircraft and Tool.

N

Air On
March 20th, 2008, 11:57 AM
There was a Glock under the seat, not no stink'n 1911. The Jetfins are not very aerodynamic, they stayed at home base, XXXXXXXXX Aircraft and Tool.

N

Not aerodynamic!... Obviously you just haven't put a large enough engine on them. ;)

Thalassamania
March 20th, 2008, 01:58 PM
Nice planes.

Yes they seem to go together.

I don't fly any more, I used to do a lot of it and I agree with NEMROD, Pitts are great.

I understand why NEMROD took a Glock, the kitfox couldn't lift the 1911, right?

My shooting now is confined to trap, I've a beautiful Charles Daly 206 12 gauge over and under and it's a joy to shoot. I'm told there's a decent public range in Hilo, I've not checked it out yet.

Papa Steve
March 20th, 2008, 04:53 PM
There was a Pitts S1C that I shared a hanger with down at Pearland. I loved flying that Pitts Special, that and the Super Cub.

My Kitfox VI (built by me) and my Cub (part owner and rebuilt by me) on the ramp in route to Oshkosh in about 1996:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0118.jpg

There was a Glock under the seat, not no stink'n 1911. The Jetfins are not very aerodynamic, they stayed at home base, XXXXXXXXX Aircraft and Tool.

N

Nice planes. I don't have any time in a tail dragger but always wanted to try. I've not done much flying since 911 and most all of my time are in Archers and Arrows.

So, in this thread we have martial arts pilots flying off with their guns to go diving. Now where are the technical climbers? I really enjoyed doing that about 50 pounds ago.

DA Aquamaster
March 20th, 2008, 10:14 PM
I learned to fly in a 1952 PA-18 Supercub (N1590P) and owned half interest in a 1946 PA-12 Super Cruiser (N92588). Both are excellent aircraft. My first aerobatic experience was in a 180hp Citabria. Champs, Citabrias and Decathlons are nice airplanes to fly, but they don't have the same feel or control harmony of a Supercub and they really make you work to fly good aerobatics. I currently share a hanger with a J-3 that is in serious need of restoration and hopefully I'll work a deal with the owner someday. If that were to happen, however, I'd be seriously tempted to go with a Reed Clipped Wing Cub conversion and install an O-235 or O-320 engine to have a nice sportsman category aerobatic aircraft as well as a comparatively rare version of the classic cub.

The Clipped Wing Cub is more or less the a Colt Commander version of the J-3 Cub. Medium and Large Jet Fins are "clipped fin" versions of the Jet Fin, but the large fin versions are just as aquabatic.

Air On
March 21st, 2008, 12:56 PM
So, in this thread we have martial arts pilots flying off with their guns to go diving. Now where are the technical climbers? I really enjoyed doing that about 50 pounds ago.

I used to climb a bit back in Washington State in the 80s. I had basic equipment but I wouldn't say I was a Tech climber... I did a little a few years ago up on the Rim North of Payson, AZ. (See image below)

http://b9.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00676/91/56/676496519_l.jpg
PS: For the record, thats not my AR-15... I don't care for .223 rounds, they good for paper targets, eggs, golf balls, and varmits though. I was showing my buddy who owns the gun that I can hit golf balls at 100 and 200 yards accuratly after telling him I don't like .223.

I did have some fun recently on the 3 story rock wall as a mega sized gym here they took us too for team building from my Architectural job.

Everyone just stood around looing at each other when they said ok... who wahts to go first... So I just clipped in and went up. I was a bit too easy, the holds actualy got bigger the higher up wou went. I didn't care of the auto belay device the first time. It was better then a crappy person on Belay though. It was a pretty nice place for fake walls... I likes the feel, smell and challenge of a real rock personaly but it was still fun after so long away.

They did have a few supprises for me, some of the blocks they had installed were loose, so when I applied a little weight they spun. One even came off... Evidently they had set up that one wall but forgot to tighten all the finger hold blocks down. I'm pretty consistent with my points of contact, so it wasn't an issue, just a supprise.

On that wall it was an advanced set up sloped back towards you with an overhand to transition half way up. It had an actual belay station so the trainer was on belay for me. It was nice because i could actually rappel down instead of walking with the auto belay down.

Even though this thread has evolved quite a bit from its origional topic...
I think we can make some pretty cool observations about the common Adventurer spirit many divers have that set them outside the normal percent on the populus.

The enjoyment of exploring places that only a small percent of people see.
Enjoying liberties that many people never think much about let alone pursue.

I think I'd probably enjoy time at any of these activities with the people I've seen posting in this thread so far.

Nemrod
March 21st, 2008, 08:44 PM
I learned to fly in a 1952 PA-18 Supercub (N1590P) and owned half interest in a 1946 PA-12 Super Cruiser (N92588). Both are excellent aircraft. My first aerobatic experience was in a 180hp Citabria. Champs, Citabrias and Decathlons are nice airplanes to fly, but they don't have the same feel or control harmony of a Supercub and they really make you work to fly good aerobatics. I currently share a hanger with a J-3 that is in serious need of restoration and hopefully I'll work a deal with the owner someday. If that were to happen, however, I'd be seriously tempted to go with a Reed Clipped Wing Cub conversion and install an O-235 or O-320 engine to have a nice sportsman category aerobatic aircraft as well as a comparatively rare version of the classic cub.

The Clipped Wing Cub is more or less the a Colt Commander version of the J-3 Cub. Medium and Large Jet Fins are "clipped fin" versions of the Jet Fin, but the large fin versions are just as aquabatic.


The large Jets are short and squatty, I think it is the XL and up that is properly proportioned. If the XL size were the short and squaty polly wogs I think my love of the pain inducing, arch killing, impervious chunks of rubber would be much reduced.

I have a 200 plus horse, hand built by me, viper yellow IO 360, the Superior bits, sitting in my basement waiting either for me to finish the RV or mount it on a Super Cub, burt, frankly, when I began working aviation as a career my interest in it as a leisure pursuit nose dived.

I got talked into transitioning a fellow into this flivver, afterwards I decided that my career as a test pilot and mentor was ill concieved, I kissed the ground afterwards and ran for my life. Closest I ever came to being a smoking hole.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0004_edited.jpg

N

Thalassamania
March 21st, 2008, 09:03 PM
http://www.f4u-corsair.com/images/212_f4u-01.jpg
I keep dreaming about building one of these some day.

A new F4U-1 replica kits is being considered for development, based on the Pratt & Whitney R1830-92 engines.

The R1830-92 is a 14 cylinder, twin row engine, maximum-rated at around 1200 hp and is found on several versions of the DC3 as well as other aircraft.

But the wife said OK to the Cobra Daytona Coupe

http://images.kitcarmag.com/featuredvehicles/0703kc_02_s+type_65_coupe+.jpg



http://images.kitcarmag.com/featuredvehicles/0703kc_03_s+type_65_coupe+.jpg

once the house, the o'hana, the garage and the workshop are done.

But I think Hawaii calls more for a Unimog

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/S404-300TDI-erg-chebbi.jpg/180px-S404-300TDI-erg-chebbi.jpg

or a Duce-and-a-half restoration.
http://hilltoparmyradios.hilltopbiz.com/45_ihc_truck_ls.jpg

DA Aquamaster
March 21st, 2008, 10:25 PM
In the serious cash homebuilt category, I have always thought a Thunder Mustang would be nice. An R-1830 powered Corsair replica has the same appeal but with a throatier radial engine sound. :)

And in the serious fuel bill (and unlikley to die in a smoking hole) category, I'd love to own a nicely restored T-28B, T-28D or Fennec. Alternativley, I double the fuel bill with 2 R-1820's and go with a Grumman Albatross and have a round the world capable flying amphibious RV/liveaboard diveboat.

All of the above will require a winning lottery ticket. Jet fins on the other hand, only cost about $65.

DA Aquamaster
March 21st, 2008, 10:31 PM
I got talked into transitioning a fellow into this flivver, afterwards I decided that my career as a test pilot and mentor was ill concieved, I kissed the ground afterwards and ran for my life. Closest I ever came to being a smoking hole.I had a similar experience with what was basically a Monnet Moni with a Mosler VW engine, a big prop and very tall conventional gear to provide prop clearance. It is the only aircraft that has ever scared me and it managed to do it on a fairly regular basis as it was an overpowered ill mannered pitch sensitive, short coupled ground looping SOB of an aircraft with zero forward visibility on the ground. Having the hangar fall on it during a tornado probably saved my life as I was too stupid to stop flying it in an effort to work all the bugs out and probably would have ended up pulling the wings or tail off it in flight.

Nemrod
March 21st, 2008, 10:50 PM
DA, it is a game of Russian Roulette we play, how many times can we pull that trigger, do we feel lucky today? I ask that each time, alone in the sky or deep in the sea, do we feel lucky today. So far the answer has been yes.

N

DA Aquamaster
March 22nd, 2008, 01:07 PM
One of my flight isntructors once told me that the most important thing in flying was to keep your number of landings equal to your number of takeoffs. The same thing applies to diving where at the end of the day you want to be sure that your number of ascents still equals your number of descents.

mempilot
March 22nd, 2008, 01:16 PM
Greasy side down, shiny side up.

Took an almost 20 knot decrease in wind speed over the numbers a couple of days ago. I wouldn't call it a landing, but more of a controlled crash. I guess the ratio is now kind of like most long time eBayers feedback scores: 99.8% positive. :)

Papa Steve
March 22nd, 2008, 03:59 PM
Greasy side down, shiny side up.

Took an almost 20 knot decrease in wind speed over the numbers a couple of days ago. I wouldn't call it a landing, but more of a controlled crash. I guess the ratio is now kind of like most long time eBayers feedback scores: 99.8% positive. :)

Similar event happened to me back when I was a student and on a solo cross county. I throttled up to go around and dumped my flaps before I had a positive rate of climb.

Thankful for a long runway, after a go around and a successful landing, the locals were having a barbeque on the field and asked me if wanted to join them. I declined, hoping they wouldn't see me shaking as I went to the restroom to lose my breakfast.

Gilldiver
March 22nd, 2008, 07:13 PM
I have been on a few boats out of NY where we had the clay pigeons going off the stern with a 870 or two for the interval. But the real fun was taking a tank of helium with us, a bunch of cheep ballons and letting one go and trying to hit it after 3 seconds, with the boat moving, with the hand gun or your choice. We shot sitting down when the boat was moving after one guy put a hole in his transom when he fired and stumbled at the same time.

As for planes, I know of a few Mig 17's and some jet attack trainers might be had.

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