Charter Associations - Watchdog or Price fixer? [Archive]

SneakyB'tard

February 14th, 2003, 10:19 AM

"What Charter Associations?
Any associations that claim to represent the dive charter boats with few exceptions are invariably made up of dive boat owners."

I got this reply in another thread and was very interested in the diving population's opinion of Charter Associations(CA).

I was hoping that CA would assist in the safety of divers they serve by insisting that all charter members are certified in the safety compliances required by whatever governing body they fall in the jurisdiction of.

From what I have heard, they do not insist of such documents or compliances in order to obtain membership..from this I ask the question....Watchdog or Price fixer?

Opinions???

seahunter

February 14th, 2003, 10:43 AM

I suppose it's only right that I vote first.

I see our votes cancel each other.
However, when I voted that they are a watchdog, realize that I think that's their honest intention and that they try to meet that obligation. It's just that they are most certainly influenced by their own interests first. That is, they will try to govern the actions of the members to ensure good, safe service to the diving community PROVIDED that action is not detrimental to their own charter business.

My opinion and it is worth exactly what it cost me to post it!
What do you think?

It would be very useful to hear from some charter operators so we should send this to any we know.

Bubble Boy

February 14th, 2003, 11:05 AM

They are in business to make money. If they seem not to be safe then they wont get return customers.

The motivating factor for an association to form would clearly be financial. ie group advertising is much more affordable.

taz22

February 14th, 2003, 05:56 PM

Bubble Boy nailed it right on the head.

Most association fornm to act as a "marketing partnership". You have the advantage of reaching the most number of people at a much more affordable price than if you tried to market a single operation to the same amount of people

divedude

February 15th, 2003, 02:52 PM

But I went with price fixer :eek:
I may catch some flack for that opinion.
But with that said, it helps to keep the price down for the customer's.
My opinion is that the price should be a lot higher.
Here for a 2 tank dive: $60 Cdn. about $40 US. I would go to $75 Cdn $50 US Which is still cheap if you compare to prices in the US.
The cheapest I found when I was down this winter was $60 US which is $91 Cdn
But if I went higher people would try to get the best deal.
You would not believe the number of times I have had people tell me "{unnamed charter} will take us out for $55 and I have 10 people". I tell them, "enjoy you dives with {unnamed charter} I won't go less than $60".
But all I tell people is check out their credentials first, that's your best bet. and if you get a deal, go for it. Chances are they won't be in business next year.

So..... Price fixer is a good thing for the divers. Don't knock it!

canuckdiver

February 15th, 2003, 08:59 PM

well, I would have to say that charter associations are like most business associations.

yes, they do work to protect the profitability of the business, but at the same time they are an excellent tool for the consumer to help weed out shady or downright unsafe/dishonest business owners.

I have yet to see a business association come down on a small business owner for exessively low prices. The manufacturers of products have done this, but not any retail associations that I have been involved with.

seahunter

February 15th, 2003, 09:16 PM

Hey Dude... (I just like the sound of that!)..

I think you may be looking at the Association wrong. They won't keep the prices down!
Whenever a group of businessmen get together one of the first topics is agreeing to keep the prices up. Generally they agree to NOT compete with each other. It's usually the loner who starts a price war.

sparky30

February 15th, 2003, 10:09 PM

divedude once bubbled...
But I went with price fixer :eek:
You would not believe the number of times I have had people tell me "{unnamed charter} will take us out for $55 and I have 10 people". I tell them, "enjoy you dives with {unnamed charter} I won't go less than $60".
But all I tell people is check out their credentials first, that's your best bet. and if you get a deal, go for it. Chances are they won't be in business next year.

I guess you get what you pay for.. When I go looking for a charter operator I look at qualifications and dive boats first.. money second.. I'd rather pay a premium and go out with a safe, reputable company that offers excellent service than save $5 and go with some 'no-name' brand... In the end, its like most business deals.. you build a relationship with your charter operator, and if he/she is good you come back again and again... Besides, I expect prices to go up this summer, based on recent increases in unsurance and sky rocketing gas prices..
See ya in the summer divedude.. :)

acoustic diver

March 12th, 2003, 11:52 AM

It is all about Marketing.
Sure they also work together to maintain moorings for everyone to use, split the cost on emergency training programs.

Must be a bad thing - a group of business people working together to make their life easier and let the world know they exist.

All you private divers must hate associations who work hard to maintain the buoys that you use and mark the wrecks for you. If it were not for them you would know where could dive and then you would have to pay a charter fee whether low, mid, high in price.

Safety is a concern - all boats should have at least Oxygen and a radio and be trained to use both - but diving is you, if you screw up or were to cheap to service your gear no operator can help you there and therefore safety of diving is not a primary concern as it is out of their hands and in ours.

Got to love a post like this started by a former Charter Association member.....

GTADiver

March 12th, 2003, 04:18 PM

acoustic diver once bubbled...
It is all about Marketing.
Sure they also work together to maintain moorings for everyone to use, split the cost on emergency training programs.

All you private divers must hate associations who work hard to maintain the buoys that you use and mark the wrecks for you. If it were not for them you would know where could ....

I am all for some of the associations like POW. But if you are refering to the USLCA the facts are clear. The sites were moored long before the association existed. SOS is marking the sites as well. Most of these sites were found and marked by individuals not in the charter association or not on the executive of the association. The association could shut down tommorow and the sites would still be moored. Working together is great but lets hope they respect the Cdn and American laws while operating. Any diver can buy a zodiac and call him/herself a charter operator. For that matter you dont have to be a diver to run a dive charter business.

sparky30

March 12th, 2003, 07:21 PM

I just read through the transport canada website.. Any boat under 60 tons carrying up to 12 passengers requires a limited masters license to operate. This includes most dive charters. The crewing regulations are quite strict on this.. I only know of one charter operator with his master license.. how are the other one's doing it?? I thought about starting a dive charter business myself, (part time on weekends) but I couldn't figuire out how to get past the regulation or get enough sea time to qualify for the license.. Any suggestions?
I guess this means a lot of charter operators are operating illegally, or I'm really missing something... How do they get liablity insurance like that?

Bubble Boy

March 13th, 2003, 01:24 AM

sparky30 once bubbled...
I just read through the transport canada website.. Any boat under 60 tons carrying up to 12 passengers requires a limited masters license to operate.
Don't forget the over 5 tons part.

Butch103

March 13th, 2003, 11:58 AM

Bubble Boy

March 14th, 2003, 12:53 PM

1. Passenger vessels of not more than 5 tons gross tonnage are not required to carry a certificated master. However the person in charge of the vessel is required to be capable of operating the vessel in a safe manner. During an inspection the Marine Safety Inspector will ask questions and may require a demonstration of competence in the running of the vessel in order to be satisfied that any crew and the person in charge has the necessary skills and knowledge to operate the vessel safely for its intended voyage.

2. Passenger vessels more than 5 tons gross tonnage require a certificated master. The class of voyage, as described in the Home Trade, Inland and Minor Water Voyages Regulations will determine the minimum level of certification required.

3 Passenger vessels with a propulsive power of over 75 kW are required to carry a certificated engineer. In some cases a dual capacity master / engineer will be permitted.

eagleray2003

March 15th, 2003, 04:23 PM

I would have to agree with SeaHunter I have never heard of any association price fixing the price down to help the consumer out, most associations or business groups try to fix prices so they control fees charged and if everyone charges $75. the consumer has no choice, but keep in mind there is always someone out there lingering ready to cut your throat! I just heard of a scuba shop that is going to offer open water courses for the cost of course materials and pic envelope. Equipment rentals, pool and instruction as well as open water dives are free!

taz22

March 15th, 2003, 04:55 PM

sparky30 once bubbled...
I just read through the transport canada website.. Any boat under 60 tons carrying up to 12 passengers requires a limited masters license to operate. This includes most dive charters. The crewing regulations are quite strict on this.. I only know of one charter operator with his master license.. how are the other one's doing it?? I thought about starting a dive charter business myself, (part time on weekends) but I couldn't figuire out how to get past the regulation or get enough sea time to qualify for the license.. Any suggestions?
I guess this means a lot of charter operators are operating illegally, or I'm really missing something... How do they get liablity insurance like that?

You'll find most charter operators have an insured Divemaster as minimum on the boat when it is under 5 tonnes as mentioned in the post above.

If you do your home work you'll find most charter operators operator within the laws we have and all this talk about license Master stuff is just to strike fear into people and make themselves to be somthing bigger than they are.

I have been boating for close to 20 years now and just because someone has "Master" papers doesn't mean that he/she is any more better at driving a boat than I am. It tells me that they have had the time to committ to taking such training. But in the end, with my experience and a Divemaster designation with insurance through PADI, I could operate a insured charter operation if I choose to do so. However, I boat for fun, not to make money, so I choose to use the services of a number of charter operators that do just fine by me.

Let's get off this talk about Master papers yada yada yada. In the end it's just a bunch of BS!

sparky30

March 15th, 2003, 11:34 PM

taz22 once bubbled...

You'll find most charter operators have an insured Divemaster as minimum on the boat when it is under 5 tonnes as mentioned in the post above.

If you do your home work you'll find most charter operators operator within the laws we have and all this talk about license Master stuff is just to strike fear into people and make themselves to be somthing bigger than they are.

I have been boating for close to 20 years now and just because someone has "Master" papers doesn't mean that he/she is any more better at driving a boat than I am. It tells me that they have had the time to committ to taking such training. But in the end, with my experience and a Divemaster designation with insurance through PADI, I could operate a insured charter operation if I choose to do so. However, I boat for fun, not to make money, so I choose to use the services of a number of charter operators that do just fine by me.

Let's get off this talk about Master papers yada yada yada. In the end it's just a bunch of BS!

I sort of agree with you.. I've been boating for 10 years now.. Not as long as you have, but still long enough. I don't doubt that you are qualified to run a dive charter.. This still doesn't change the facts or the laws.. The reason I brought it up is because I was considering opeing my own charter business.. In the process of doing the homework I stumbled accross all kinds of rules..
I knew about the 5 tons rule.. Very nice.. but.. Most boats over 30ft would be above the 5 ton limit..I checked.. (There is a formula and all kinds of reference material on the transport canada site on how to calculate tonnage for small vessels)
Now personally I really wouldn care who drove the boat as long as they knew what they were doing.. I also know that all the folks carry insurance.. I'm just questioning what will happen when you file an insurance claim and they find out the boat is over 5 tons, and the paperwork isn't all there.. Good luck trying to get your money...

Bubble Boy

March 16th, 2003, 10:29 AM

sparky30 once bubbled...

.. but.. Most boats over 30ft would be above the 5 ton limit..I checked.. (There is a formula and all kinds of reference material on the transport canada site on how to calculate tonnage for small vessels)
Now personally I really wouldn care who drove the boat as long as they knew what they were doing.. I also know that all the folks carry insurance.. I'm just questioning what will happen when you file an insurance claim and they find out the boat is over 5 tons, and the paperwork isn't all there.. Good luck trying to get your money...
The law is the law as you pointed out and you are very correct in that if you are violating the law the chances of getting insurance money are nil. Sort of like drinking and driving....you are now uninsured.

Most boats over 30ft would be over the 5 ton limit but that leaves a big loop hole for those operating pontoon boats as charter boats.

My personal belief is the law to a point should be based on the passenger count and not the vessel size. Mandatory life boats for instance should be based on the passenger count and not the tonnage. The life boat is to save the people and not the boat.

My experience is that the charter boats are not all insured. Some dont get the insurance as they figure they can not afford it or because they know they are breaking the law and it would be unusable anyways. Fortunately, most of these operators dont last long or get educated.

Tom R

March 16th, 2003, 10:40 AM

Shuddering, I'm entering the conversation.

I was at a meeting, and we had it all laid out to us. The minute there is an ASSUMPTION of moneys being paid. That would also include the instructor with his boat taking his students out to certify. You're now commercial and all the rules apply to you. That includes everything from digny's to tugs. The size rules dictate what safety stuff you must have.

Tom

divedude

March 16th, 2003, 11:32 PM

taz22 once bubbled...
If you do your home work you'll find most charter operators operator within the laws we have and all this talk about license Master stuff is just to strike fear into people and make themselves to be somthing bigger than they are.

I have been boating for close to 20 years now and just because someone has "Master" papers doesn't mean that he/she is any more better at driving a boat than I am. It tells me that they have had the time to committ to taking such training. But in the end, with my experience and a Divemaster designation with insurance through PADI, I could operate a insured charter operation if I choose to do so.
If you do, Don't get in a accident, or trouble. Or you'll wish you had a "Masters Certificate"

However, I boat for fun, not to make money, so I choose to use the services of a number of charter operators that do just fine by me.

Let's get off this talk about Master papers yada yada yada. In the end it's just a bunch of BS!
So what you are saying is YOU did your home work and with a divemaster on board your good to go!!! what the h*ll does a divemaster have to do with Transport Canada regulations?
I think your homework just got a "F"

And if you think I'm trying to make myself "Bigger than I am" You've never met me! I'm all ready bigger than I should be :D

GTADiver

March 17th, 2003, 12:20 AM

Tom R once bubbled...
The size rules dictate what safety stuff you must have.

Tom
Are you saying "Size matters" now I am in trouble.

I went to Buds on the Bay for a beverage earlier this week and I noticed a sign for a new dive shop on the same street offering free air. Anyone know about this shop??

Tom R

March 17th, 2003, 05:50 AM

falling for the Troll

Yea Size dosen't matter honest, no really it doesn't (hee hee:) ) That's what I'm being told

Tom R

SneakyB'tard

March 17th, 2003, 10:59 AM

I think I know the shop GTADiver.

The free air is only 14.7 psi and it comes with a lovely view of Blockhouse Island.

GTADiver

March 17th, 2003, 01:15 PM

Thats funny Sneaky B, but I am serious when you drive down towards bud's (southbound) on the right hand side (west) there is a sign on an apartment building regarding the new dive shop. Take a drive down.

Cheers and Happy Leprechaun day
:coke: :coke:

taz22

March 18th, 2003, 09:16 AM

GTADiver once bubbled...

Are you saying "Size matters" now I am in trouble.

I went to Buds on the Bay for a beverage earlier this week and I noticed a sign for a new dive shop on the same street offering free air. Anyone know about this shop??

What????

You came all the way to Brockville and didn't let me know. We could've done a dive in Prescott. Geez......

BTW, I have a good idea who is the owner of this new store opening up. This more than likely will be an extention of a business that they already have up and running.

taz22

March 18th, 2003, 09:18 AM

divedude once bubbled...

So what you are saying is YOU did your home work and with a divemaster on board your good to go!!! what the h*ll does a divemaster have to do with Transport Canada regulations?
I think your homework just got a "F"

Touched a nerve eh?????

Bubble Boy

March 18th, 2003, 01:54 PM

taz22 once bubbled...

BTW, I have a good idea who is the owner of this new store opening up. This more than likely will be an extention of a business that they already have up and running.
Free air ...they will be busy in the summer.

divedude

March 20th, 2003, 03:37 PM

taz22 once bubbled...

Touched a nerve eh?????

Naw!

Just safety conscious. I've been around a while and seen some crap happen because people go around the rules.

I care because if something bad happens in Kingston, we all get tarred with the same brush.

About 8 years ago my wife was running the POW booth at Underwater Canada, A group of 4 guys went by the booth and Donna over heard them say " The guys in Kingston are jerks, I'll never go back there"
She stopped them and ask why they felt that way. They had had a very bad experience with a charter owner and never got to dive all weekend. So they had never come back.

I offered them a free day diving if they came to Kingston again and they have been diving here ever year since.

So misinformation like what you posted hurts charter operaters that try to do the right thing.