I'm really interested in setting up a vintage set of gear with double 72's. I've got a pair currently that are from the mid 60's that I've been using with a modern isolation manifold for mid range dives. I've been considering swapping that manifold to a set of al80's and setting the 72 up vintage. What was the standard double manifold from back then? Would it something like a Sherwood style dual outlet yoke, or a single outlet J valve style?
Also, where is the best place to pick up a decent double hose reg without breaking the bank?
Thanks,
Jim
captain
March 17th, 2008, 01:09 PM
The double manifolds of the time would be a single outlet with 500 psi J reserve. U S Divers early manifold was of a 3 piece design and later ones were 1 piece. As for a double hose reg without breaking the bank exactly how much is the bank willing to spend. Sometimes you get lucky and can find one at a garage or estate sale cheap but then you have to rebuild it and more than likely end up spending at least a couple of hundred for new hoses, diaphragm, rebuild kit, etc. Or you can look here for one ready to go.
Regulators : Vintage Double Hose!, Your online source for all things related to vintage diving (http://www.vintagedoublehose.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2&zenid=558aab0c20b857fa1093ad49afd7a8a5)
And join rhe forum to get all the right answers related to vintage diving.
Vintage Double Hose :: Index (http://www.vintagedoublehose.com/forum/index.php)
Luis H
March 17th, 2008, 01:16 PM
Double tank manifold:
In the 60’s and 70’ it would have been a single outlet (probably with a reserve, J) and the most common were a US Divers then followed by Voit, Dacor, Sportsways, Scubapro, White Stag, etc. Not necessarily in that order. OBTW the Dacor and a few others were made by Sherwood Selpac before they actually started selling under their own name.
I think it was in the early 80’s when Sherwood when they introduced the dual outlet double manifold. IMO this is a great “vintage tech” valve. I have one and I am in the market for another one. With a double hose you want the second outlet facing back.
To get a double hose you can get one on eBay (taking some risk), shop locally, etc. and then rebuild it…if you want you can even have it re-chromed.
Another alternative is at VintageDoubleHose.com you can get one totally redone. It will cost you more at first, but when you add all the parts and the rebuilt you end up with a better deal…unless you start with a real inexpensive initial investment and you do the work yourself. Doing the work yourself is always satisfying, but I normally would recommend that on your second double hose ( ;) this can be addicting). If you are already a DIY, then this are super easy to work on.
You should join us at VDH.
Nemrod
March 17th, 2008, 03:20 PM
Vintage tech is sorta undefined. It could mean about anything. In the 60s there were no dual outlet valves in common use. Divers needing redundancy would use independent doubles or manifolded doubles, single outlet, with a large piggy backed pony. The excellent Sherwood manifold came along in the late 70s or later so it is not really vintage but who cares, I have a couple of them and I am also looking for yet another. I also have a twin outlet Nemrod manifold and a single outlet USD (60s) and a Nemrod triple (60s). An edge-y diver in the late 60s might have had a Fenzy BC, center outlet twin 72s and a small pony or not.
For a double hose, as has been mentioned, ebay or vdh or vss or the trade sections of those forums. For actual diving use you want ONLY an Aqua Master, Voit Navy etc. A good Mistral can be fun too but is somewhat limited in the "tech" configuration.
You have to remember, there were no BCs in the 60s to speak of, they did not exist, vintage tech divers would be without a BC. Even into the early 70s BCs were not common and if they were used there were only the horsecollar type, most were manual/oral inflate but a few had power inflators. One of my favorite vintage tech rigs is a doubles set of 50s/72s with Sherwood manifold, RAM on center, Voit MR12 on LH post, Dacor or SeaTec BC (vintage style horsecollars) with power inflator. Get a vintage doubles harness from Peanut King on ebay or a singles harness from Simmonbeans on vdh. They work fine without a BC or with a horsecollar. Where do you get a horsecollar BC, well, good luck with that. The SeaTec is still made but finding one is not easy.
There is another form of diving, I dare to mention it, eclectic, mix old and new, dive a double hose with modern wings and plates etc, can be fun and very practical. That is what I do much of the time.
N
TN Traveler
March 17th, 2008, 04:49 PM
There is another form of diving, I dare to mention it, eclectic, mix old and new, dive a double hose with modern wings and plates etc, can be fun and very practical. That is what I do much of the time.
N
As N says, this is a great way to dive, especially in colder water. Using a modern BP/W, mask and wetsuit with a double hose, especially a Phoenix conversion, makes cold water diving much easier.
But if the water is warm, use of a simple plastic backpak (or just a harness) and a horsecollar makes for a great way to dive. See the thread about Bouyancy Control in the Sea Hunt Era - this is scuba diving at it's ultimate.
pescador775
March 17th, 2008, 06:07 PM
Jimmer, you will have to make it up as you go. There is no precedent or authority for this, just opinion which is not based on safety or suitability of use stats since there are no two rigs the same. The centerpiece would have to be the two hose regulator. Going tech is not cheap because the only two hose for which there is good support is the DA Aqua Master and Royal Aqua Master and even these are inadequate in the original form. There are many advanced, aftermarket pieces available for these meaning service or repair can be done routinely. More importantly, there is a "tech" conversion, and since this is a tech thing, it will be advisable to purchase an Aquamaster regulator and convert it to a multiport configuration with the "Phoenix" high pressure block (nozzle) available from Vintage Double Hose. There are scads of people who can mentor or do the conversion completely.
The second key piece is the center manifold. Using a twin post of modern type is not an option. Nemrod advises you on the Sherwood with center port and second port on one post. Getting the J valve config is optional but can be found on EBay from time to time. If the second port is not needed then purchase a US Divers solid bar manifold favored by the US Navy and commercial divers in the day.
The BC can be anything from a modern set of "wings" to horse collar type of 70's vintage. As mentioned already, note that the standard Navy Harness cannot be used with the Phoenix due to stand off. A pack must be used with the Phoenix. Suggest go modern or if vintage, a Scubapro double pack from the early 70's. This will have galvanized double bands and no handgrips of any kind.
Fins are optional but Jet Fins might be a logical pick.
Cast lead weights of course.
Oval window mask which are available on EBay.
Single skin, nylon in wetsuit with beavertail apron available from numerous sources such as JMJ, Helios and boutique fabricators which the vintage crowd can advise.
Pesky
Nemrod
March 17th, 2008, 06:56 PM
Actually you can dive the Phoenix with a vintage single harness. The 6.9 inch diameter tanks however will result in the top can being slightly up against your back. With a 7.25 inch diameter tank it works very well. Well, vintage harnesses are not available in 7.25 size huh--well---get the "travel" single harness type which accomadates the aluminum 80 perfectly and is comfortable and fnctional with the Phoenix. Anyways, I can dive the Phoenix on a vintage SeaHunt single harness. It works OK but you may feel the regulator against your back. With a 6.9 tank like a steel 72 or double steel 72s, as Pesc mentions, that might not work for some people. The regulator center mounted on 6.9 doubles will sit relatively low and the longer Phoenix nozzle may have it up agaisnt your back. Luis, have you tried that yet? I think he has.
If you use a Sherwood manifold you don't need a Phoenix conversion because the reverse mounted single hose on the left post carries all of the inflator, spg and octo duties--realizing of course vintage divers don't use octos or inflators because they are not vintage--lol. You need a low profile first for that like the old Voit MR12 or I also like the Mark V (clones) with the turret. These provide excellent hose routing.
The Sherwood is available with and without the reserve function, I have one of each, I prefer the non-reserve model. These are a modular three piece valve. I mentioned have a NOS three piece USD manifold, I like it because it is sooooooo vintage but as Luis mentions, the single piece USD manifolds are very desireable.
N
pescador775
March 17th, 2008, 07:20 PM
Vintage Navy harness in 7.25 size is available from sources like EBay. The Navy used them from the 1950's with non-magnetic aluminum tanks, etc. Modern versions have stainless steel bands which are made of thin metal and tend to cut into the webbing. Also, gaining an 1/8 inch standoff by using thicker tanks is of questionable utility as to comfort and suitability. However, it is my understanding that we are discussing twin steel tanks. Using the Sherwood manifold for purposes Nemrod mentioned would be a cheaper option than the Phoenix conversion. Alternately, not doing the conversion promptly should be seen in light that the conversion parts may or may not be available later.
Jimmer
March 17th, 2008, 09:03 PM
This is pretty interesting reading. I'm leaning towards a Sherwood dual outlet manifold with a Mk5 clone that I currently own as the backup to an Aquamaster. It'll be an interesting project I'll just be fiddling along with all summer getting it together. One thought I had was to use a bare harness with no horsecollar to keep the appearance of vintage, but use my drysuit for buoyancy. Does anyone do this?
Luis H
March 17th, 2008, 09:07 PM
The regulator center mounted on 6.9 doubles will sit relatively low and the longer Phoenix nozzle may have it up agaisnt your back. Luis, have you tried that yet? I think he has.
-realizing of course vintage divers don't use octos or inflators because they are not vintage--lol.
N
Yes, I have a set of vintage twin 40’s (1800 psi) that I use with a Sherwood double manifold and Navy style harness. I got new straps from Allan to replace the old stiff nylon straps, but it is a great rig. I have normally used it with one of my Phoenix and the flat surface of the can does touch right between my shoulder blades. I can’t think of a better location for a double hose. In order to breathe easier I would need surgery.
Actually it is very comfortable. If I was going to do push-ups in dry land, I might feel different, but in the water it is weightless and when I am walking it feels fine also.
Oh, about the octopus not being vintage, you are kind of correct, but not exactly. On the other hand the alternate single hose second stage is vintage. Last weekend at Boston Sea Rovers, we saw a presentation from the Eastern Divers Association (New Jersey / New York wreck divers) from the 60’s and 70’s (I think also the 50’s, not sure). Many of the old pictures had them using double 72’s with a double hose regulator and a pony bottle (converted O2 tank) on the back with an alternate regulator out of the pony.
I also have a book about ice diving with a few old black and white pictures of divers with Aqua Masters and/or Royal Aqua Masters with an alternate second stage attached to the hookah port. I have also seen similar pictures in an old article about ice diving. Therefore, I am not sure that we can say that the alternate second and the pony bottle are not vintage since they have been around since the 60’s. We just didn’t use them in the Caribbean until the mid to late 70’s.
Luis H
March 17th, 2008, 09:20 PM
This is pretty interesting reading. I'm leaning towards a Sherwood dual outlet manifold with a Mk5 clone that I currently own as the backup to an Aquamaster. It'll be an interesting project I'll just be fiddling along with all summer getting it together. One thought I had was to use a bare harness with no horsecollar to keep the appearance of vintage, but use my drysuit for buoyancy. Does anyone do this?
Yes, it has being done many times. The Poseidon Unisuit actually predates many BC's. I don't have much experience with that particular dry suit since I grew up diving in the Caribbean. I do own one of them now.
A laminate type suit may actually work better since you don't have to compensate for the neoprene compression. My normal dry-suit is neoprene, but here in Maine most of our dives seldom go under 40 ft.
dumpsterDiver
March 17th, 2008, 09:47 PM
I used to dive the unisuit with no BC at all. I'm not sure if it was really wise, but it worked for me.
I still have one it is an XL or L and I do need to sell it... anybody?
Also have 2 double tank manifold, at least one has a j-valve reserve on it.
Gilldiver
March 17th, 2008, 09:49 PM
"Vintage Tech"???? The Technical term was first used for diving by Mike Menduno around 1993 or so, maybe a year or so earlier. Back then we were all just "Wreck Divers."
Attached is my set of 72's with a OMS back plate, Abyss BC from about 2000, and a Abyss Explorer as a back up which was a Poseidon 1st stage with a Kirby Morgan Supperflow 2nd stage. and in the middle is a DA Aqua Master with the Phoenix Nozzle which lets me put on a SPG and a Dry suit inflator - Hell this is almost DIR!
As you can see the backup reg interferes with the Double hose a bit, NEMROD will be by shortly with a photo that shows how this manifold can be reversed so that the backup reg 1st stage is on the back of the tank post but on the divers left side.
Gilldiver
March 17th, 2008, 09:56 PM
As for manifolds, here are only a few ways to get "Vintage."
Gilldiver
March 17th, 2008, 09:58 PM
A few more
Gilldiver
March 17th, 2008, 09:58 PM
Now for REAL VINTAGE you need TRIPPLES!
Gilldiver
March 17th, 2008, 10:01 PM
Yes, TRIPPLES, like these.
I got most of these photos the old fashiond way, I stole them off of Ebay. But some are from my garage.
Pete
StevenN
March 17th, 2008, 10:09 PM
This is a really interesting thread. I don't have anything to add to it but I am really enjoying all your posts.
Thalassamania
March 17th, 2008, 10:11 PM
My first set of doubles were independents rotated so that they faced center and connected with a adapter that had a yoke at each end and a valve with an on/off wheel at the center. I can't remember who made it.
Gilldiver
March 17th, 2008, 10:19 PM
My first set of doubles were independents rotated so that they faced center and connected with a adapter that had a yoke at each end and a valve with an on/off wheel at the center. I can't remember who made it.
There were too many made to name all the manufacturers, I just remember calling the "Cheater Bars" as you were cheating by not spending the money to buy a real manifold. 3 of the manifolds above are the cheater type. I realy love the one with the pig tail to absorbe any twisting or movement between the two tanks - this cheater bar was also known as the "Suicide Bar."
Nemrod
March 17th, 2008, 10:56 PM
In about 1972 when I was introduced to cave diving we were in the early days of that sport relatively speaking. Much of the equipment was homemade. The equipment my mentors used were largely independent steel 72s and a few other sizes with dual regulators. Reels, lights and all of that were homemade. There were no BCs and all sorts of intersting things were going on to try and keep the diver up off the bottom. Lights used nicad cells from aircraft batteries and landing lights from the same. We at least made penetrations we thought to be significant but compared to what divers do today they were barely scratching the surface. I did not see any double hose in the caves. The shop I worked for was throwing them away literally and I stupidly appluaded their action instead of doing what I should have--lol--dumpter diving!
Frankly I do not believe there was any such thing as tech in the vintage era. Certainly there were some amazing feats being accomplished one off here and there but divers were not broken into "tech" and open water, we were just scuba divers. That is what I remember but heck, I was just a kid tagging along so I don't know for certain. That does not mean there were not some divers doing what we would today consider tech dives,of course there were but say in 1966 there was not the array of equiment available we have today. There was no unified approach as we have today in DIR (bless their souls, lol). People were trying and doing all sorts of things dependent upon their interests and needs.
Fortunately my interests soon tired of long limestone tunnels and seeing what was around the next split or bend and returned to the ocean, thus my still being alive. There the double hose/twin hose regulator still reigns supreme as far as I am concerned. Gill wanted me to post this pic I guess:
If you were to go back to 1968 you would not see anything like the above because it did not exist and more than that, the need for it to exist had not been thought of yet. VERY few divers were using multiple regulators and there were no twin outlet manifolds I am aware of (I am sure Luis will dig some up--lol). Neither am I aware the term "vintage tech" was being used in 1993 or to what it might refer.
In a way, when we do "vintage tech" we are making up history to some extent. Of course, some of us just like to hook stuff up in strange ways and mostly to allow us to use our twin hosers despite all obstacles in our paths. I don't recall slung stages or any of that either. But I was a raw beginner so maybe I just did not see it. Ponys were used and they were mounted to the main tank(s).
I had other interests in 1972, not the least of which was girls and school and other such things:
That is my Bultaco Pursang 125. I still have it in some crates--lol. Believe it or not but diving has never been my number one pursuit. My wife and I about 1980 about to jump across to Bimini in our first little aeroplane:
Lots of things, marathons, triathlons, cycling, time trials, solo backpacking, water sking, boats etc all got my attention and still do so I am not a scuba expert by any means. I enjoy the purity of vintage diving and enjoy all of that but I am really a traditionalsit and minimalist diver.
A bunch of cool horsecollar BCs from the 70s, mostly post vintage, well, notice it is 1974, the end date for vintage era, these were the beginning of what was to come:
N <---when I go I am going to skid out of here in a cloud of dust, beat up, worn out and flat busted and with my boots on, uh, about 60 years from now.
Jimmer
March 18th, 2008, 01:25 PM
Well this thread has given me a ton of stuff to think about. Sounds like I'll be tinkering this summer looking for a manifold for my mid 60's USD 72's, and an Aquamaster to play with. Does anyone know (Luis perhaps) the center to center to distance of the Sherwood dual outlet manifold?
Nemrod
March 18th, 2008, 02:53 PM
The Sherwood C/C distance is the same as all old twin manifolds. If you look on the picture above with the tape measure--that is what it is. If you need an exact number I or Luis can supply that. Yes, you will need "vintage" bands because these manifolds do not slide or adjust. Victor can make nice bands for use with plates and PeaNut King can provide the vintage style bands and harness if you prefer that.
N
Joe-Diver
March 19th, 2008, 05:00 PM
Awesome....back in '76 or '77 I had a Hodaka 125 Combat Wombat.....wish I still had it. That bike was way too big for me but I learned to tame it...and all my bud's were riding XR75's and YZ80's so I smoked the crap out 'em! Only the older kids on Bultaco's could keep up with me.
I had other interests in 1972, not the least of which was girls and school and other such things:
That is my Bultaco Pursang 125. I still have it in some crates--lol.
Nemrod
March 19th, 2008, 08:55 PM
Holy cow, a Combat Wombat, we would have let you ride with us in our dirt pile for sure. Hodaka, those were mean dirt eating machines, course, the Pursang stuck fear in their black hearts I tell ya. King of the Roost (get it) and master of chaous, and then along came the Elsinore. N
Joe-Diver
March 19th, 2008, 09:33 PM
Oh yeah, only the 'taco's and husky's could keep up with me. I can't even count how many times that bike jumped out from under me, at the time all 90 pounds of my 12 year old body....until I finally figured the throttle out and could launch it and hold on to it when riding hard....as I remember it was only like a half turn, so with a flick of the wrist it was either all in or all out....just the way that bike was....mean little effer. But once I figured it out....man....
WD8CDH
March 26th, 2008, 12:54 PM
Back in the late 60's and early 70's a D or E O2 bottle with a 1/2" pipe thread post valve was the common "tech" pony. At that time I was manifolding doubles and triples with a stainless steel adapter between a single valve and the tank with 1/4" staneless steel tubing to connect each tank/adapter togeather. The regulators that I used then were the Poseidon 300, Conshelfs, Calypsos and Aquamaster doublehose regulators. Independant shutoff for each regulator. My dive buddy used the Nimrod one piece, two outlet manifold with reserve (and an SPG). We used Fenzy and USD horse collar BC's.
The Nimrod manifold was about 1/8" or 1/4" closer than the USD manifold so I had to modiy the band clamp block a little.
Some of the diving was with a 72 and a 50 doubled with a battery pack for the light below the 50.
Thadmn
March 26th, 2008, 01:48 PM
I happen to own an old Seatec BC if interested.
Poogweese
March 26th, 2008, 04:39 PM
One thought I had was to use a bare harness with no horsecollar to keep the appearance of vintage, but use my drysuit for buoyancy. Does anyone do this?