Two Scuba divers killed by a speedboat

[Hillmorton Scubie]

Reports are coming in of two divers being run down and killed yesterday (12th April 08) by a speedboat, down in world famous diving destination Sharm-el-Sheikh.

[spectrum]

So they are.....CDNN :: Speedboat Kills Two Tourists Scuba Diving in Red Sea (http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s080412a.html)

It's not uncommon to have boat traffic at some of our spots and we're careful but this underscores the need to stay keen.

Condolences to all.

Pete

[james croft]

I have had too many bad experiences with boats almost getting me. I am surprised it has not happened more often. Any details how this happened. Was a dive flag up, etc ?

[Busdiver]

Boat traffic continues to be my greatest fear when diving in the St. Clair River in Michigan. The usually situation on the river consists of alcohol, a boat, and curiosity. When we dive the river we treat it as if we are diving in a confined or over head experience where surfacing could lead to injury.

[Splitlip]

Boat traffic is my ONLY "fear".
A buddy and I were struck by a speeding boat 20 some years ago. Luckily neither of sustained serious injury. Changed my diving habits for ever.

[drbill]

We've even had boats enter our Casino Point Dive Park, which is ringed by buoys with warning signs and roped off. I once had two of them go right over my head in 10 ft of water. It would be nice if they required a person to actually have brains if they are going to drive a boat... and to keep off the mind alterants. Yesterday we had a jet skier heading full bore toward the boat. He stopped about 25 ft away. Many people have no clue what an alpha or dive flag means.

[fisherdvm]

I think even if you towed a surface marker the size of a small car, jetskis and pleasure boats still would not stay away from it. Problem is that half of the people on the water are drunk, and the other half never took boat safety course.

[james croft]

I have been hit but not hurt once by a boat being propelled by an electric motor. Just shook me up a bit. Had a couple of brushes being driven over by my dive boat on the Cooper River. Very close call with a prop. The prop wash blew off my mask it came by me so close.

Last summer I had a guy in a 23 ' Grady White buzz me . I was in a boat displaying a dive flag with one diver still in the water near my boat. He came about 20 feet from my boat and I yelled to him to stay away as I had a diver in the water. We were in about 10 feet of water at the time. VA state law is to stay 75 feet away from a dive flag and divers are required to have a flag when diving is underway. He hollered back that the diver needed to carry the flag. I advised him he was too close and that my flag was properly displayed and to stay clear. This guy went down about 100 yards and turned around and came past me again, this time coming within about 10 feet of my boat. He yelled at me and said I did not know the law.

I was getting pretty tired of this guys antics so I then produced my state LE badge and told him I was the law. He replied that he did not give a F#*&! who I was as he drove past. I took my knife and scratched his registration numbers into the gunnel of my boat. It took me a couple of trips to his apartment before I caught him at home. I can happily report he is now fully aware of the responsibilities of a boat operator to steer clear of a dive flag. Who says there is never a cop around when you need one?

[Splitlip]

I have been hit but not hurt once by a boat being propelled by an electric motor. Just shook me up a bit. Had a couple of brushes being driven over by my dive boat on the Cooper River. Very close call with a prop. The prop wash blew off my mask it came by me so close.

Last summer I had a guy in a 23 ' Grady White buzz me . I was in a boat displaying a dive flag with one diver still in the water near my boat. He came about 20 feet from my boat and I yelled to him to stay away as I had a diver in the water. We were in about 10 feet of water at the time. VA state law is to stay 75 feet away from a dive flag and divers are required to have a flag when diving is underway. He hollered back that the diver needed to carry the flag. I advised him he was too close and that my flag was properly displayed and to stay clear. This guy went down about 100 yards and turned around and came past me again, this time coming within about 10 feet of my boat. He yelled at me and said I did not know the law.

I was getting pretty tired of this guys antics so I then produced my state LE badge and told him I was the law. He replied that he did not give a F#*&! who I was as he drove past. I took my knife and scratched his registration numbers into the gunnel of my boat. It took me a couple of trips to his apartment before I caught him at home. I can happily report he is now fully aware of the responsibilities of a boat operator to steer clear of a dive flag. Who says there is never a cop around when you need one?


Good show! The shield trumps a Mossberg.

[shurite7]

When I lived in Cayman I took several resort course students our for their dive. Ten minutes into the dive tourist on jet ski's buzzed right over us. Later I found out the hotel was not informing the tourist about the alpha and dive flag.

When I first moved to MT I inquired about the law in reference to the dive flag. Unanimously every shop corrected me; up the dive flag is a "target" for boaters. Sure enough I learned what they meant. During an open water dive (I was on shore with my students while another instructor was in the wate with theirs) two boats drove up to the flag took a look at it and then proceeded to the shore where they hopped out and used the restrooms.

C

[fisherdvm]

I think many boaters think sausages and floats are water toys that needed to be rescued and given back to the kids on the beach.

The analogy to over head diving is interesting.

[sermar]

Not too many Zodiac among boaters ... an not enough spear fishermen in the water!
Most of the recreational boater have no clue of regulation and signal in the water.
They should be more astringent regulation and license for pleasure boats.

[fisherdvm]

I think there is strong polical pressure state goverment NOT to regulate boating. The pleasure boat industry doesn't want to cut down their marketshare. In the same way, one can argue that all hunters must take hunter safety class. But I dare say, less than 50% of all states have that requirement.

Shouldn't gun owner have mandated gun safety class? Definitely yes, but it will never happen.

Scubadiving is the only "self regulated" sports industry in the US, and I think they've done a good job at self regulation.

[Splitlip]

I think there is strong polical pressure state goverment NOT to regulate boating. The pleasure boat industry doesn't want to cut down their marketshare. In the same way, one can argue that all hunters must take hunter safety class. But I dare say, less than 50% of all states have that requirement.



Sadly, I think you are correct.

[Missdirected]

I can happily report he is now fully aware of the responsibilities of a boat operator to steer clear of a dive flag. Who says there is never a cop around when you need one?

*giggle*

[Jim Lapenta]

This thread is a good reason to carry a couple good solid beer bottles. Fill one with air at 20-30 ft and launch it into the bottom of the boat. Or a nice length of heavy nylon line to let float up into the prop. Jet skiers could pose a different problem cause they are so fast. ANyone know of a personal torpedo that will do 40 knots or better. Release, buzz, BOOM! No more yuppie idiot!

[AY]

This thread is a good reason to carry a couple good solid beer bottles. Fill one with air at 20-30 ft and launch it into the bottom of the boat.


Would that actually work? I thought if that was would happen during my advanced deep dive when the divemaster filled a water bottle with air at 100 feet to demonstrate the pressure change from depth to the surface.

Here in Canada, it will be mandatory by 2009 that all small motorized craft operators carry a "Pleasure Craft Operator Card", which basically proves you know the rules of the water.
Currently, all PWC operators must have this certification.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the problem is enforcement.
Although many boaters here have their Pleasure Craft card, I'm sure many do not.
And what about the rental places like at Wasaga Beach? Do they check for PCOCs before they rent out, of just require a deposit?
I have seen much police presence there during summer long weekends, but I don't recall seeing them on (or near) the water.

As for other countries and resorts, I'm not knowledgeable on their rules of the water, so I cannot really comment, but a diver down flag, is a diver down flag, and ALL boaters should know and recognize both flags, and exercise caution.

I dove in the Toronto waterfront last summer, and there was a ton of boats. We carried a flag, and everything was alright.
On PWC operator approached us when we were almost at shore to chat, but he had his machine off and didn't come near us when we were under water.

I hope boaters are getting the picture, its a scary thing to hear their motors whizzing by when you are under water.

[dhaas]

Amigos,

Not to make light of the poor guys who were killed in the beginning of this thread, but I have a hilarious video of my departed friend Paul Caputo who co-owned Quiescense Diving in Key Largo.

He was leading a group I had brought down to FLA on a drift dive on Outer Molasses, where we were in a bit deeper water of 50' - 75'. Paul was linked to a BIG Orange float with Diver's Down markings on it. All of a sudden, a 25' or so boat ZOOMS IN over our group of 8 divers and a guy proceeds to grab the buoy and try and drag his trophy aboard. This despite the viz is at least 75', he can SEE all of our bubbles (and likely US!) down below and such.

So Paul lets the guy reel in a bit and then pulls back :) He wasn't going to pull the bozo in, although I'm sure he and I thought about it! But not knowing if the guy had anyone else in the boat discretion was the better part of valor.....

Finally, Paul surfaced and likely politely asked the bozo what he thought all the bubbles, continuous line down to it, etc. were and what the heck did he think he was doing? Paul was always polite that way :)

Me, I would have surfaced with my knife extended pointing at the guy :) Plus I really like the idea of carrying a bit of loose line in your BC for just such events.....

Be aware, stay down and pay constant attention when surfacing......

Dive safe!

dhaas

[ladbak1]

I have been hit but not hurt once by a boat being propelled by an electric motor. Just shook me up a bit. Had a couple of brushes being driven over by my dive boat on the Cooper River. Very close call with a prop. The prop wash blew off my mask it came by me so close.

Last summer I had a guy in a 23 ' Grady White buzz me . I was in a boat displaying a dive flag with one diver still in the water near my boat. He came about 20 feet from my boat and I yelled to him to stay away as I had a diver in the water. We were in about 10 feet of water at the time. VA state law is to stay 75 feet away from a dive flag and divers are required to have a flag when diving is underway. He hollered back that the diver needed to carry the flag. I advised him he was too close and that my flag was properly displayed and to stay clear. This guy went down about 100 yards and turned around and came past me again, this time coming within about 10 feet of my boat. He yelled at me and said I did not know the law.

I was getting pretty tired of this guys antics so I then produced my state LE badge and told him I was the law. He replied that he did not give a F#*&! who I was as he drove past. I took my knife and scratched his registration numbers into the gunnel of my boat. It took me a couple of trips to his apartment before I caught him at home. I can happily report he is now fully aware of the responsibilities of a boat operator to steer clear of a dive flag. Who says there is never a cop around when you need one?

Bet that felt great!!!!:D

[james croft]

A friend of mine was towing a rubber inner tube with a dive flag on it around a lake. He heard a boat coming. The boaters stopped and began pulling him up. When he got to the surface he went limp like he was dead and then suddenly screamed. He said it scared them pretty good.
It seems to me more boaters are ignorant of dive flags and rules of the road than those who are aware of what a dive flag means.

[DennisS]

A boater going into the sun cannot see those little flags that stick up about 1 1/2 foot if there is any chop. My advice get a BIG flag on a 4-5 ft shaft. Why they sell those little floaties is beyond me, they meet the legal requirements in FL but that's about it. Boaters can't see them when shore divers are out there. On the other hand there are morons who just don't care, I've always thought about 25 foot of 1/8" breakaway cable on a secondary floats.

[Tom Winters]

You can avoid all these boat traffic problems simply by moving to Hawaii where the state enjoys the lowest per-capita ownership of all 50 states. Once you're out of the harbor or away from the boat launch areas, you're pretty much on your own except for offshore Waikiki.

[LeadTurn_SD]

You can avoid all these boat traffic problems simply by moving to Hawaii where the state enjoys the lowest per-capita ownership of all 50 states. Once you're out of the harbor or away from the boat launch areas, you're pretty much on your own except for offshore Waikiki.

You're pretty much right.... but even here on the Big Island you need to be careful:

The owner/instructor of our local dive shop told me of an incident a couple years ago in which he had a group of students doing skills in relatively shallow water, with a innertube dive flag overhead. A boat pulled up next to the flag, stopped, turned off it's engine, and dropped anchor! The anchor and chain dropped amongst the divers, but amazingly no one was hit. The instructor surfaced, and "explained" the significance of a dive flag and almost clobbering submerged divers to the clueless boater, along the legal and civil liability (and the boater's personal safety) if one of his student-divers had been injured. In this case, the boater really did not know what a dive flag was or that divers were beneath him, was horrified that he had almost injured someone, and apologized profusely.

I think most boaters here do understand what a dive flag is, and in general tend to be really courteous... but you still have the knuckleheads.

Safe Diving!

[Ayisha]

I think many boaters think sausages and floats are water toys that needed to be rescued and given back to the kids on the beach.

The analogy to over head diving is interesting.

We treat diving in Lake Simcoe, the Niagara River and some parts of the St Lawrence River in Ontario as essentially overhead environments as well due to boat traffic. People have been hit and killed by boats or sea-doos, even with a diver down flag. Unfortunately, the flag often does seem to be an invitation to boaters to come closer and investigate what it is.

I wonder if only relying on boaters to take a safe boating course or to be taught what the flags mean is enough, when a safe boating course is not mandatory everywhere. Perhaps there should be some new universally recognizable flag that does not require being taught? Perhaps there should be a poster with a diver down flag with an explanation at boat launches, marinas, boat shows, etc.? Just a thought.

[Splitlip]

great idea.

[DandyDon]

We've even had boats enter our Casino Point Dive Park, which is ringed by buoys with warning signs and roped off. I once had two of them go right over my head in 10 ft of water. It would be nice if they required a person to actually have brains if they are going to drive a boat... and to keep off the mind alterants. Yesterday we had a jet skier heading full bore toward the boat. He stopped about 25 ft away. Many people have no clue what an alpha or dive flag means.
I was on the King Neptune there once, up toward Twin Harbors - had to wave off the Boy Scouts who were approaching. Isn't their reason for being in that boat to learn boat safety? :shakehead:

Another time on Key Largo's Molasses Reef, probly the busiest dive site in the world, saw a sail boat come thru - and you can't hear them from below. He came close enough to hear me calling him every name I could think of, and asked me what I was upset about. He was out of reach.

I want a grenade launcher. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/waffen/violent-smiley-018.gif

[=C=]

We got a ticket for surfacing in Slapy Reservoir (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=slapy++czech+republic&ie=UTF8&t=h&ssp=addf&ll=49.816617,14.423509&spn=0.002413,0.004908&z=18)without a marker. 200 crowns each. With bonus "wow a cop on a jet ski" looks from everybody.

[OceanObsessed]

A boater going into the sun cannot see those little flags that stick up about 1 1/2 foot if there is any chop. My advice get a BIG flag on a 4-5 ft shaft. Why they sell those little floaties is beyond me, they meet the legal requirements in FL but that's about it.
I totally agree with you on this. Store bought floating dive flags are a complete joke. I used to use one and I can't tell you how many times I have had boats run right over the top of me and hit my flag too. I made my own giant dive flag (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n178/chrisandchristine/Shared/DSC_3553Small.jpg) that files higher and uses a larger size flag. I use a similar giant flag (without the float) on my kayak too. I don't get buzzed nearly as much these days.

Also, boats running directly upwind or downwind cannot see flags ahead of them very well. When I see boats approaching I grab the flag and hold it up higher out of the water and wave it. That usually gets their attention.

[SteveAD]

A boater going into the sun cannot see those little flags that stick up about 1 1/2 foot if there is any chop. My advice get a BIG flag on a 4-5 ft shaft. Why they sell those little floaties is beyond me, they meet the legal requirements in FL but that's about it. Boaters can't see them when shore divers are out there. On the other hand there are morons who just don't care, I've always thought about 25 foot of 1/8" breakaway cable on a secondary floats.

The arguement that boaters can't see the flag is voided by the number of morons who home in on the float and even try to pull it on board.

I dive with a flag ONLY because of the *******ed up LAW that fines me if I don't have one but doesn't penalize a boater that hits my flag so long as he is only traveling at headway speed. The prop on a slow moving boat is still spinning fast enough to turn a person into hamburger.

As many have mentioned I treat all dives as an overhead environment. I enter the water leave my flag anchored as soon as I hit about 10 feet of water go off and enjoy my dive and don't come anywhere near the surface until I am back to my flag and coincidentally closer to the beach than boats are likely to go.

The vast majority of boaters either don't know or don't care what the flag means, and sadly the majority of flag laws and law enforcement are focused on the diver that the flag was created to protect rather than the boater who has been the threat from the start.

I just thought of a new float design that places a hand grenade on top of the flagpole. Before surfacing the diver, while still at depth, can remotely pull the pin and detonate the grenade, giving us a window of time that we know there are no idiots overhead. This might finally teach the boaters that it is not a good idea to approach a divers flag.:D

[OceanObsessed]

I just thought of a new float design that places a hand grenade on top of the flagpole. Before surfacing the diver, while still at depth, can remotely pull the pin and detonate the grenade, giving us a window of time that we know there are no idiots overhead. This might finally teach the boaters that it is not a good idea to approach a divers flag.:D
Or just tie a thick 50' polypropylene line onto the float of your flag and let it float on the surface. If it ends up wrapped around a propeller then they will know to keep away from flags in the future :D. Gheez, why didn't I think of this years ago ??

[GradyDiver]

Here in Canada, it will be mandatory by 2009 that all small motorized craft operators carry a "Pleasure Craft Operator Card", which basically proves you know the rules of the water.

I think this is a great idea. I was amazed when I bought my first boat that no licensing was required. I took the (Power Squadron) safety course which mentioned what dive flags were and how to operate around them, but it wasn't drilled in. I found it hard to believe that any >18y.o. who can afford a boat and registration can head out on the water. I've seen people (some with very expensive boats) do some amazingly dumb things (presumably sober). I know of many others who go out primarily to socialize and drink (and then of course head back to the dock).

If I need to study and pass a test to use my boat and if it thins out the pack of idiots, saves lives, and prevents some of the environmental damage caused by bad/inexperienced boaters, I'm all for it!

[2Tours N Iraq`]

I think this is a great idea. I was amazed when I bought my first boat that no licensing was required. I took the (Power Squadron) safety course which mentioned what dive flags were and how to operate around them, but it wasn't drilled in. I found it hard to believe that any >18y.o. who can afford a boat and registration can head out on the water. I've seen people (some with very expensive boats) do some amazingly dumb things (presumably sober). I know of many others who go out primarily to socialize and drink (and then of course head back to the dock).

If I need to study and pass a test to use my boat and if it thins out the pack of idiots, saves lives, and prevents some of the environmental damage caused by bad/inexperienced boaters, I'm all for it!

I agree. I think it is despicable that the law places fault on the diver who is displaying a dive flag instead of on the bone-head who doesn't steer clear of a vessel or float displaying a diver down flag or alpha flag. I think there should be more stringent requirements for boat operators and believe some form of licensing should be required.

[DandyDon]

I think this is a great idea. I was amazed when I bought my first boat that no licensing was required. I took the (Power Squadron) safety course which mentioned what dive flags were and how to operate around them, but it wasn't drilled in. I found it hard to believe that any >18y.o. who can afford a boat and registration can head out on the water. I've seen people (some with very expensive boats) do some amazingly dumb things (presumably sober). I know of many others who go out primarily to socialize and drink (and then of course head back to the dock).

If I need to study and pass a test to use my boat and if it thins out the pack of idiots, saves lives, and prevents some of the environmental damage caused by bad/inexperienced boaters, I'm all for it!
Yep, when we bought our Jet powered ski boat, the salemen told us that we didn't need anything to take it out, and it was easy to learn. No Safety Instruction Required, so sure we loaded the boat with a cooler of beer. I don't think any of us ever abused the beer while out, but then how would I seriously know. Now my brother and I were driving tractors full time and bob-tail cow trucks on the hiway at age 12 so we had some sense by ages 25 & 30, but had to figure a lot out on our own. Had we seen a dive flag, we would have motored to it maybe.

Worse, any 18 year old can RENT a boat or jet ski and go out to learn, and wreck havoc.

Funny, talking on one thread about damned boats too close, and on another about stranded at sea with no boats around. :shakehead:

[ronski101]

It does not do much good when you are the only one who has taken a coast guard auxillary course. It seems that the vast majority of boaters haven't the foggiest idea who has the right of way let alone what the red flag with the white strip means. If you dive in high boat traffic areas be it in the USA or Cozumel or wherever, you gotta look out for your own skin rather than rely on the knowledge and eyesight of others. Manatees have an excuse divers don't.

[Doc Harry]

You would think that divers themselves would know better.

Last summer a speed boat whizzed past me at high speed. He passed by me less than 30 feet away while I was on the surface. I had an inner tube with a dive flag.

The boat pulled up to the shore where my van was parked. I confronted the boater when I got to the beach.

He was a member of the CHARLESTON WEST VIRGINIA DIVE RESCUE TEAM, there at the lake for training. He stated that he knew the state law required boats to remain 150 feet away from a dive flag, but he didn't think that the law applied to him since he was on the dive rescue team.

"Oh, I know I won't hit you," he replied, stating that it was okay for him to speed by divers.

Here is West Virginia there is no lifeguard on duty at the gene pool.

[james croft]

Pretty amazing.

[Doc Ed]

So... does anyone have more information on the two divers that were killed?

[MarkUK]

As usual, CDNN has not let the truth get in the way of a good story, and while this thread has some useful information and stories about making sure boaters can see you while you are underwater/on the surface – and how scary it is that many boaters have no common sense whatsoever – in this instance none of them would have made the slightest difference.

Information I have from Sharm is that the two Polish divers in question were diving under Shark's Bay jetty and apparently came up under a dive boat moored to the jetty with its engines in neutral. Quite how they managed to do enough damage to themselves to end up fatally injured is beyond me.

Mark

[phrixus]

I'd heard a similar story to this myself, living in Sharm you'd think I'd be able to find out more info on this.
So far I've heard that it was 2 divers that were injured/killed & that they were underneath the main jetty at Sharks Bay when 1 popped up (poss panicked), instructor went to assist with the ascending diver. The instructor is not a local so may not have been aware of the hazards of the jetty (although I would have thought this pretty obvious as there's often boats moored there). I think the captain put the boat into gear to move off not realising anyone was by the propeller.
Will update if I manage to find out anymore info over the next few days

[DandyDon]

As usual, CDNN has not let the truth get in the way of a good story....
Yeah, you expect that of them, don't you? I have wondered about obtaining real info but didn't even ask given the far away location. An unfortunate loss. There is a brief news article; I have no idea how much fact is involved here...

From Egyptian official: speedboat kills 2 Polish divers at Red Sea resort - International Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/12/africa/ME-GEN-Egypt-Divers-Killed.php)

Egyptian official: speedboat kills 2 Polish divers at Red Sea resort

CAIRO, Egypt: An Egyptian medical official says two Polish scuba divers were killed when they were hit by a speedboat in the Red Sea resort city of Sharm el-Sheik.

The official at the Sharm el-Sheik hospital, Ibrahim Hassan Ali, says the bodies of a Polish man and a woman were brought to the hospital. He says the Polish embassy in Cairo will be notified of the Friday deaths.

Hospital authorities identified the Polish victims as Jona Kosic, 45, a man, and Wizo Kosic, 43, a woman.

Fatal scuba diving accidents happen occasionally in the Red Sea, where thousands of foreigners come annually to scuba dive because of the water's famous coral reefs.

[Noboundaries]

Well this certainly was a reality check thread. Thanks for all the info.

[robint]

this is the kind of thing that really scares me. I heard a story from some divers in Fla once who were shore diving pulling a dive flag on a float and a jet ski kept passing overhead... they finally surfaced and when they came up the jet ski came over to them and asked what they were doing! They said "diving, can't you see the #@%& dive flag?" The jetskiers laughed and said they didn't know what it was and were trying to hit it as a game. Great! Thanks dudes.
When we went diving in Fla (off a boat) and pulling a dive flag I was really nervous about surfacing! There are waaaay too many boaters off Fla and it seems most of them have no sense of safety and too many of them are intoxicated. :11: Boat traffic Scares the crap out of me!

[DandyDon]

Justifiable grounds for drowning a jet skier?

Wonder where I could get a waterproof grenade launcher...?
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/waffen/violent-smiley-066.gif
Yeah, I think you just have to treat idiots with motors as an overhead environment - and hope you don't get hit by a fast moving sailboat.

[diverdwn71]

Makes you want to ram your dive knife into the botton of the jet ski.

[aquaman_06]

Boaters are a real concern on the lake that I live on. From the few times I have been underwater in the lake and those I have spoken with who used to dive it often it really would make a great dive site. The state of MD doesn't even try to regulate boat traffic and they will rent a boat to anyone with a driver's license who is over 18. A friend of mine who dives the lake here and there said the jet skies use his dive flags as slalom buoys.

The boaters up here are not pleased with a boat unless it has dual 200 hp engines and will fly at 60 mph down the water. It's not uncommon for ducks, geese and other water fowl to get run over, I'd hate to see what these inconsiderate, uneducated boaters would do to a diver.

Here is a letter I submitted to the local paper about the situation and how divers might be able to help clean up the lake:

Scuba dive on Deep Creek reveals 'underwater junk yard'
To the Editor:

As a scuba diver, I have the unique privilege of viewing a body of water from a fish's perspective. Since only a small percentage of the population are certified divers, many people's relationship with water lies only on the surface; and perhaps this is the reason that many of the world's waterways are so mistreated and polluted. On a recent weekend when I took a dive on Deep Creek Lake, I was astonished at what I found. My assumption, when reading all the rules and regulations put into place by the Maryland Department of Natural Resources that are to protect the lake as a natural resource, made me assume that Deep Creek's bottom and water quality would be in tip-top shape.

Once I cleared the highly stained and murky water and reached a depth of 30 feet I found myself at Deep Creek's bottom. It was, as is typical of most lakes, a mud bottom with a thick layer of silt on top. Once visibility cleared to where I could see something I found myself in an underwater junk yard. Over the course of our dive we found trolling motors, fishing line, children's toys, televisions, and a well silted beer can paradise. What the bottom was devoid of was what you typically expect to see in a lake; fish life, plant life, crustaceans and perhaps some amphibians. Even in areas that typically house copious amounts of underwater life, (tree stumps, fallen trees, etc.) there was nothing. Perhaps we were missing all the aquatic life because the highly stained, silted water was only allowing for about 8 feet of visibility.

Interestingly enough there could be a way to clean some of the junk laying at the bottom of Deep Creek Lake and take a serious underwater survey of just how the lake's eco-system is affected by tourism and trash dumping. Programs like Reef Check and Project Aware have utilized recreational divers to do just this in areas where coral reefs were declining. Why couldn't the same thing be done on local bodies of water like Deep Creek Lake? Perhaps the fact that the lake is so populated with high speed boats and wave runners is the answer. A diver is literally taking their life into their own hands when making a dive on Deep Creek Lake. To make matters worse boaters, (especially those who have little to no boating experience and have rented boats) do not know what a dive flag is and are going way, way too fast to even see one. The dive flag and diver would be nothing but tangled debris in a boat's prop considering the way many Deep Creek boaters choose to travel the lake. Maybe the State of Maryland could have designated scuba zones on Deep Creek as many other lakes across the country have. Perhaps even on certain days coves or areas of the lake could be closed (for at least several hours) to boaters so divers could clean-up the lake and take comprehensive aquatic life surveys.

It has become obvious that Deep Creek Lake is now a giant aquatic playground for those who have lake homes, boats and wave runners. With each passing summer the lake loses more and more of its value as a natural resource. After seeing Deep Creek from the bottom up, I fear that in addition to a playground our lake has become a landfill for vacationers and those who utilize its recreational value. Implementing the dive community has been highly successful in cleaning up other waterways and would likely yield the same success here at Deep Creek. Sure it may frustrate a few boaters that they can't use certain coves at certain times, or that an area is scuba access only, but wouldn't the lake be better kept as a thriving underwater community and natural resource as opposed to a giant inland cesspool?

Jeremy
Oakland

[Jimmer]

I've had 2 close calls, one was last summer I was in 10 feet of water trying to remove a fouled prop from a boat. We had both bow and stern hook in, and an escort boat to tow us back in once the props were off, he was to the stern with his front hook in, a dive flag was being flown, and while I was in the water, some jackass on a jetski actually ran full tilt between the two anchored boats while I was in the water between them. We never found the guy that night but I got a call from the folks I was doing the work for, who informed me that they tracked down his jetski, and he would have a hard time getting it to and from the boat ramp without wheels on the trailer. :D

[DandyDon]

We never found the guy that night but I got a call from the folks I was doing the work for, who informed me that they tracked down his jetski, and he would have a hard time getting it to and from the boat ramp without wheels on the trailer. :D
That's against the law, but I love it. :D

[roakey]

Jet skiers could pose a different problem cause they are so fast. ANyone know of a personal torpedo that will do 40 knots or better. Release, buzz, BOOM! No more yuppie idiot!
PWC Elimination (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sailor570/pwchelp.htm)

Roak

[DandyDon]

PWC Elimination (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sailor570/pwchelp.htm)

Roak
Now we're talkin'...!

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sailor570/pwckill2.jpg

[dir-sussex]

Although I dive in the busiest stretch of water in the world, the English Channel, quite near the narrowest section between the Kent coast at Dover and Calais in France (only 22 miles across), we don't seem to have many of these type of incidents.

That's possibly because there’s a greater proportion of commercial skippers compared to the leisure boats, so it's their job on the line if they get it wrong and most, if not all, have some professional skipper qualification, but I have been on dives where our dive boat skipper (who are usually divers themselves) has had to put our boat between us and an idiot in a pleasure boat, be it yacht or powerboat.

I don't know if its common practice elsewhere in the world, but most, if not all, UK skippers keep a 'live' boat whilst we're on the dive and don’t tie-up to any mooring or drop anchor, so they can protect divers in the water and also collect them from wherever we surface. We don't expect divers to have to swim or fin back to the boat as it's an unnecessary strain after a deco dive, especially in a heavy sea swell.

Usually a message on the VHF sends the idiot boaters packing, especially if the local harbour master at the nearest port is also advised.

[K_girl]

Maybe we need a flag with a little more information on it - like a picture of a scuba diver or some words like "diver down - beware" - something more than just a red flag with a white stripe.

[MrBill_FTL]

didn't read all the threads, but agree that its the main source of concern.

living in So FLorida, and beach diving, I've been there... and also had a near miss when driving (sorry guys, never saw the flag!),

its very hard to see the typicall float flags, you get at most dive stores... just too darn low to see over any type of chop.

I made my own 10' flag from pvc and that helped... also attached a boogey board to the flag to use as a safety and more visuals aids...

the real answer has been the kayak. I put the tank on the back, and tie everything else aboard, and paddle out. have not had a problem since.

the kayak is hard to miss, and the flag helps too...

-very sorry about the accident, but its really hard to see a low float flag, even by an experienced boater and diver. (me).


GODSPEED!

[AK47Diver]

Maybe we need a flag with a little more information on it - like a picture of a scuba diver or some words like "diver down - beware" - something more than just a red flag with a white stripe.

I've got a float with the larger yellow inflatable ring that supports it that says "Diver Below" in big block letters.

It doesn't help, we've had boaters go right over our heads at Union Lake, with some PWCs likely using it for a slalom marker.

[DandyDon]

Maybe we need a flag with a little more information on it - like a picture of a scuba diver or some words like "diver down - beware" - something more than just a red flag with a white stripe.
Well it'd need to be one held up even without wind. How large of a sign would you need for all that to be seen by a speeding boat or jetski before it's within 100 ft? But then they'd just say that it was turned the wrong direction probly...

[dive_lover88]

what about those contraption called bangsticks or something along that line?

would that do the job?:D

[Sylvain]

one of the big problem is people are not educated I don't know about the state but here in Canada boaters all have to be certified they must fallow a course but i think more should be but on markers flags during courses.

The following is from: Frequently Asked Questions - Office of Boating Safety (http://www.tc.gc.ca/boatingsafety/oc-faq.htm#3-1)

"How this applies to operators** of pleasure craft fitted with a motor and used for recreational purposes Date at which proof of competency required on board


All operators born after April 1, 1983 (date req) September 15, 1999

All operators of craft under 4 m in length, including personal watercraft
(date req)September 15, 2002

All operators (date req)September 15, 2009

TIP: Certificates for boating safety courses completed before April 1, 1999 will be recognized. If you've already taken a course prior to these regulations - and have proof - then that course certificate or card will be accepted as proof of competency!

Proof of competency can take 1 of 3 forms:
proof of having successfully completed a boating safety course in Canada prior to April 1, 1999;
a pleasure craft operator card issued following the successful completion of a Canadian Coast Guard accredited test;
a completed rental-boat safety checklist (for power-driven rental boats).
The operator card is good-for-life. Boaters can obtain their card after receiving a mark of at least 75% on a Canadian Coast Guard accredited test. "

[String]

Sharm incident apparently a polish instructor and another polish person doing a DSD.

Various different stories then as to whether the boat was moving or not and so on. No information as to whether they were towing a SMB or not.

People are campaigning for prop guards there but cant see it happening. The 30%+ increase in fuel needed for one of those alone would put most operators off.

Not sure about egyptian laws but im assuming standard maritime law acts so the standard blue/white alpha flag should at least mean the responsibility is on the boat to avoid the area if the flag is flying. The red/white american dive flag though would have absolutely no legal mandate at all and im fairly sure most people wont even know what it is.

[sporket]

Great info on this thread guys! I'll pay closer attention now!

[DwayneJ]

Scubadiving is the only "self regulated" sports industry in the US, and I think they've done a good job at self regulation.

You forgot about Hang Gliding! Its documented that more fatalities occur using Personal Water Craft than Hang Gliding/Paragliding.

[scubadiver888]

I think even if you towed a surface marker the size of a small car, jetskis and pleasure boats still would not stay away from it. Problem is that half of the people on the water are drunk, and the other half never took boat safety course.

I was on a dive boat that held 22 divers. We went down in two groups. My group was the first down and therefore the first up. While we were switching to a second tank a boat went within a few yards of the dive boat. This was a fairly large boat with HUGE dive flags on it. The boat master yelled at the other boat, "Divers DOWN!!!" since the second group was most likely going to be surfacing any minute (they actually saw the boat and waited).

So, yes, you could have something the size of a large cube van and boaters will still not respect your space.

[DandyDon]

I got pretty vile with the sailboat pilot who sailed between the dive boats on Molasses Reef. He wasn't going fast but those things don't have the control and stopping ability of a motorboat, and you can't hear them coming. Since he was moving slowly, he may not have broked any rules, but he was still stupid.

[plsander]

I got pretty vile with the sailboat pilot who sailed between the dive boats on Molasses Reef. He wasn't going fast but those things don't have the control and stopping ability of a motorboat, and you can't hear them coming.

While the sailor in question was stupid for his navigation/piloting skills and judgement.... I have to take issue with the "control and stopping ability" comparison to motorboats.

The typical sailboat has a much larger percentage of wetted surface for control (rudder & keel or centerboard) than any powerboat. All of the sailboats I have sailed I could turn inside their length -- with less wake production than powered vessels.

And while they don't have brakes, heading up into the wind and backwinding the sails will stop you in short order.

[TCWestby]

Last year at Mukilteo we had a close call with a jetskierwho was snockered, buzzed us in 6' of water just as we were about to stand up. Admittedly we had no flags out but there were several groups of divers and when we asked the guy to move deeper he gave is crap. and did doughnuts at high speed.

We called the cops but as they pulled up, not in a boat, he took off. Too bad I didn't have a graple or he'd have delt with us.

[Oxy]

I've had 2 close calls, one was last summer I was in 10 feet of water trying to remove a fouled prop from a boat. We had both bow and stern hook in, and an escort boat to tow us back in once the props were off, he was to the stern with his front hook in, a dive flag was being flown, and while I was in the water, some jackass on a jetski actually ran full tilt between the two anchored boats while I was in the water between them. We never found the guy that night but I got a call from the folks I was doing the work for, who informed me that they tracked down his jetski, and he would have a hard time getting it to and from the boat ramp without wheels on the trailer. :D

Shame on you, I'd have rendered the jetski.

[DandyDon]

I don't know why I didn't shoot pics of the sailboat. Always helps to have evidence. I have the date stamp turned off, but the date shot is in the pics anyway, if the camera date & time are set correctly....

[Bottomfeeder Brodie]

My opinion is that boater safety courses should be as required as a drivers license. The minimal fee for the boaters license could be used for martime education programs. Not a big advocate of over regulation but sometimes I wonder when I constantly hear the drone of an engine and look up and see someone buzzing my bouy with a jet ski. I havent figured out a good "spike strip" for boats yet, but I'm working on it!

[Bottomfeeder Brodie]

oh, a little FYI, I also use the inflatible ring with flag and "diver below". Still get buzzed!

[Bottomfeeder Brodie]

A friend of mine was towing a rubber inner tube with a dive flag on it around a lake. He heard a boat coming. The boaters stopped and began pulling him up. When he got to the surface he went limp like he was dead and then suddenly screamed. He said it scared them pretty good.
It seems to me more boaters are ignorant of dive flags and rules of the road than those who are aware of what a dive flag means.

Nice way to end up on the DAN annual report. Air embolism anyone?

[DandyDon]

My opinion is that boater safety courses should be as required as a drivers license. The minimal fee for the boaters license could be used for martime education programs. Not a big advocate of over regulation but sometimes I wonder when I constantly hear the drone of an engine and look up and see someone buzzing my bouy with a jet ski. I havent figured out a good "spike strip" for boats yet, but I'm working on it!
The state of Florida, usually the leader in most boating deaths, finally has a resolution in mind - altho they seem intent on keeping the tourist dollar first & foremost...
cbs4.com - Miami Dade: Deadliest Place In U.S. For Boaters (http://cbs4.com/local/deadly.boat.accidents.2.718869.html)

Miami Dade: Deadliest Place In U.S. For Boaters
Florida Topped List As Deadliest State For Boaters

Once again Florida leads the nation in deadly boating accidents with Miami Dade being the deadliest municipality in the state for boaters.

Last year, 77 people were killed in boating accidents in the Sunshine State according to recently released statistics by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission; 13 of those deaths were in Miami Dade.

This is the 16th time in the last two decades that Florida has led the nation as the deadliest state for boaters.

In an effort to reduce the number of fatalities each year, the FWC has approved a plan to phase in mandatory boater education requirements over the next 11 years. The FWC statistics show that in 85 percent of all the deadly boating accidents in 2007, the boat's operator had no formal safety training.

11 years...?! :shakehead:

[Daxter]

Don, at least they are doing something but the problem as I see it is that the two flags that affect us are usually an afterthought in a boater saftey course. I took a course in New York when I was a kid and remember what the flags meant but not the rules about them. I bet the 2 flags are but 30 seconds of a multi day course.

[H2ODog]

Oregon has implemented a boater safety card over the past several years. The test can be taken online and no hands on training but it's a start. Don't know the stats on diver/boat accidents for Oregon but I dive as though I am invisible to any person on the surface. It doesn't matter who's at fault when a boat and diver make contact, the diver WILL lose every time.

I do like the rope tactic and a couple others mentioned already.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmer View Post
We never found the guy that night but I got a call from the folks I was doing the work for, who informed me that they tracked down his jetski, and he would have a hard time getting it to and from the boat ramp without wheels on the trailer.
That's against the law, but I love it.

The owner's lucky he only lost his wheels. It doesn't take too long to lose an entire axle or take apart an entire trailer. I'd love to see the guys face to find his entire trailer completely disassembled in a pile without any hardware to put it back together.

It may be against the law but I'll take the necessary measures to protect myself. Their threat determines my response.

My bark is often worse than my bite but I do come up with some sweet revenge tactics. :D

[jimbo2006]

Hadn't noticed that anyone yet mentioned that my adopted "Live Free or Die" state had recently put a boating license requirement in place. I've casually scanned the PDF file on state's web site and think it discusses diving flags but doesn't make a big deal of it. I've heard many local divers complain that its the divers that are more likely to get a ticket IF you don't have a flag than the boater is for doing something stupid near a dive flag - like racing up to see what the flag is. They have tested enforcing a speed limit for big power boats on parts of Lake Winnepasaukee (a BIG lake) - but I don't think that's gone over well. In the meantime I guess its another one of those risks we do our best to avoid.

[Flightlead]

Sadly, I think you are correct.

it is correct. also sadly, the push for controlling legislation is more around making people wear PFD's than it is making them get a boating license.

[jalvare2]

Is there any state requiring a boat driver- certification? like a car driver license?

[DandyDon]

Is there any state requiring a boat driver- certification? like a car driver license?
Florida has just started a very slow phase in as I mentioned earlier here. Too many tourist dollars tied to easy boat sales and rentals.