Redesigning AOW

[Blackwood]

But I can say this...I entered into diving confident in two things: 1) confident in my BASIC skills and 2) confident that I had a lot to learn and that I would seek out the means by which to learn it.

I entered into diving with confidence, but I think that confidence came from my ignorance to actual diving.

Looking back, I was incompetent out of BOW (regardless of the fact that I passed everything with flying colors). I wasn't capable of completely planning a dive, I wasn't capable of navigating anything beyond a rough square, I wasn't capable of pulling my mask off without planting myself firmly on the sea floor, and the likelihood I'd have been able to deal with an out of gas emergency would be laughable were it not frightening.

I may be the exception to the rule, but I doubt it.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I entered into diving with confidence, but I think that confidence came from my ignorance to actual diving.

Looking back, I was incompetent out of BOW (regardless of the fact that I passed everything with flying colors). I wasn't capable of completely planning a dive, I wasn't capable of navigating anything beyond a rough square, I wasn't capable of pulling my mask off without planting myself firmly on the sea floor, and the likelihood I'd have been able to deal with an out of gas emergency would be laughable were it not frightening.


Sounds fairly typical ... but I suspect that if you'd had to deal with an OOG emergency you would've most likely done just fine. It's been my observation that new divers tend to remember what they learned, and because their confidence is higher than perhaps is warranted, they avoid panic and just react. It may not be pretty, but it gets the job done.

The people who are really frightening are the ones who got certified years ago and haven't practiced an OOG exchange since their OW class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Blackwood]

but I suspect that if you'd had to deal with an OOG emergency you would've most likely done just fine

If it happened anywhere near the bottom, otherwise all bets are off.

Over the side of a 2000 foot wall in bonaire? Yikes.

[NWGratefulDiver]

If it happened anywhere near the bottom, otherwise all bets are off.

Over the side of a 2000 foot wall in bonaire? Yikes.

Granted ... on the other hand, no one belongs in a place like that straight out of OW.

BTW - I didn't realize there were any dive sites like that in Bonaire ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[tedtim]

....Ask any dive shop, the agencies themselves admit to 70% and see that as a problem of crisis proportion....Back to you, and as you have asked in other threads; would you please cite a reference for the 70% statistic and analysis that it is a problem of crisis proportion.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Back to you, and as you have asked in other threads; would you please cite a reference for the 70% statistic and analysis that it is a problem of crisis proportion.

I doubt any statistical data exists ... therefore an analysis of the problem would be ... problematic.

But when I was taking my instructor's course, I was told that about three out of every four people who get certified drop out of diving within a year. It was in the context of the importance of selling continuing education classes. My personal observations since then would suggest that was a reasonable estimate ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Blackwood]

Granted ... on the other hand, no one belongs in a place like that straight out of OW.

BTW - I didn't realize there were any dive sites like that in Bonaire ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Like that stops anyone :P How many new divers do you suppose dive Blue Hole in Belize each year?



Whoops. Grand Cayman.





But when I was taking my instructor's course, I was told that about three out of every four people who get certified drop out of diving within a year.

Also, I've heard many OSWI's telling students that to emphasize the importance of keeping in touch with classmates.

[Thalassamania]

Back to you, and as you have asked in other threads; would you please cite a reference for the 70% statistic and analysis that it is a problem of crisis proportion.It's a difficult question to answer in absolute terms as you will see. 70% is the "accepted insider estimate."


Link (http://www.undercurrent.org/UCnow/articles/DiverPopulation200705.shtml)
Dropout Rates
How many people stop scuba diving and when is either unknown or the industry's best kept secret. When asked about dropout rates, DEMA spokesperson Lisa Blau said, "With regards to the number of new divers certified offsetting the number of people leaving the sport, it is well known and confirmed by two separate studies conducted by two different companies, several years apart, that more than half the divers certified in a given year are still active five to seven years following their initial certification. By calculation, the number entering the sport would be far greater than the number becoming inactive." But when Undercurrent asked for the sources of those two studies, Blau said she was unable to provide them. We could find no one else who knew of these studies.

Though DAN is seeing its membership grow, spokesperson Renee Duncan says the industry is flat right now. "Everyone acknowledges that. We're not attracting as many new divers, we're a graying population, and younger people seem to be going for more extreme sports." Diving is no longer considered an extreme sport.

Across the pond, the English seem to agree. The British Sub Aqua Club posted this gloomy outlook on its website. "Over the past few years, the UK Diving industry has been challenged by deteriorating business conditions. Consumer habits are different and markets have changed. The traditional description of a UK Diver, and likely member of the British Sub-Aqua Club, has shifted. Increasingly individuals take up diving as one of a range of activities experienced for a short time before moving on to something else. New divers often take to the water for the first time abroad and are less inclined to continue when faced with conditions in UK water."

All sorts of numbers are bandied about for the actual dropout rate after the first year, ranging from as low as 40 percent to as high as 80 percent, but nothing is official. When describing scuba classes on his website, Mark Scott, owner of Mark's Water Fantasy Diving in Maui, states that PADI has the highest dropout rate of any certification agency. When asked where he got that statistic, Scott replied that he saw it on several websites, although Undercurrent didn't find it posted anywhere else.

So, for comparison, let us cite Undercurrent renewal statistics. After the first year of subscribing, 40 percent of our subscribers continue. After the second year, 65 percent stay with us and after the third year, 85 percent remain. In the magazine business, that is exceptionally good, and those numbers are ones to be proud of. However, it also means that after three years, only 22 percent of initial subscribers remain. Now, over the years many of these subscribers return - - they start diving again, start traveling, whatever. But we can't count them as active subscribers if they're not paying money and so our dropout rate, after three years, is 78 percent. We suspect the dive industry would be delighted to have rates like these.
You can also look at this thread on ScubaBoard. (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/116034-number-certified-divers.html)

You even see it on shop sites (http://www.seeoursea.com/searchpages/learn%20to%20scuba%20dive.html):

Diving has a big drop out rate and many shops will get as much money as they can from newly certified divers before they drop out of diving. This is one of the many reasons some instructors teach independently of a dive shop, they can emphasize quality of instruction rather than equipment sales.

And then there are other possible considerations: Diving into Troubled Waters: Sexual Discrimination in a Male Dominated Recreational Culture (http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED362462&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED362462)

Abstract: This paper presents results of a study of sex discrimination in the culture of scuba divers. The research grew out of class related conflicts that permitted observation in ethnographic field work, the character of gender relations in the recreational activity of scuba diving. The project was intended to investigate the role of communities of practice in recreational scuba diving. To carry out the research, a local dive shop was used to conduct an ethnographic inquiry. Although much of the diving industry believes otherwise, women still face what is an abysmal set of social relations within recreational diving. Discrimination is still a rampant and insidious problem. In addition to the explicit macho character of some discrimination, discrimination takes on other more subtle modes that, while less explicit, is in some sense more damaging. What is particularly disconcerting is the control of women through their objectification. Research on the diving culture suggests that women are denied access to precisely those subcommunities that are necessary for stable participation within diving unless they submit to a subjugating relationship. The result is a high drop out rate for women divers unable to find a suitable diving partner. Through this mechanism, the diving culture is able to admit virtually any woman who is willing to pay for entry into the diving culture (via course and equipment fees), but not allow any woman participation within that culture except on its own sexist terms.Here's from Diver Stress and Panic Prevention by Tom Griffiths, Ed.D.

Apparently, excessive diver anxiety and stress are also the leading causes of “diver-dropout.”Bottom line: what does it matter if the actual rate, depending on the definition you choose today, is 50% or 90%? The reality is that revenues are flat and shops are closing and rather than deal with it folks want to blame it on the internet.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Like that stops anyone :P How many new divers do you suppose dive Blue Hole in Belize each year?


Don't even get me started on that one ... because it's at least partly due to dive ops selling the trip to people they KNOW have no business going there ... :shakehead:

I was in Belize as a reasonably new diver ... I had less than 50 dives and Cheng had less than 20. We opted not to go to the Blue Hole because we thought we lacked the experience. Later that evening one of the ladies in our group was bragging how on her 5th dive after OW she went to the Blue Hole and they took her to 150 feet, and how narced she was, and how she ran out of air and had to get taken up on the divemaster's tank, and how they had to put her on a hang bar at 20 feet and let her breathe off a spare tank because she had accidentally put her dive computer in deco.

And she said this like it was a GOOD thing, and was all excited about it ... :11:

Turns out she'd been talked into it by a DM at the dive op who assured her that new divers do it all the time ... :shakehead:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[seaducer]

Turns out she'd been talked into it by a DM at the dive op who assured her that new divers do it all the time ... :shakehead:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

He was right. Unfortunately. But it is not just that they take people down there. While doing some research before my own trip, I ran into an article written by a DM who described getting angry at a diver who was having ear issues because they had to stop at about 70 feet instead of going all the way:shakehead:

[mgmonk]

Is anybody else ok with the basic premise that a for profit venture large enough to be worldwide in scope is going to, in most cases, throw out as wide a net as possible whereas a non-profit organization can offer more regimented and personalized because of its smaller size? Or how about the fact that wreck diving in the Carolinas is fundamentally different than boat diving in Koh Tao.

Maybe this conversation is so convoluted because there is a sense of perspective that's being ignored. Diving is many things to many people. Maybe the question is, "Within the PADI framework, what changes could benefit the AOW course?". As opposed to, "Within the entire scope of diving, the universe and all of the opinions she holds, what could we do to make the AOW course perfect for every living soul?"

So,
as for question one...

I think that there are more than a few Adventure Dives that are silly (boat being my favorite example, DPV being the other), but then again, I had another instructor, from another dive environment than mine, explain me a few benefits of those. He even gave me tips on how to teach DPV in my world and make it more than a ridiculous excuse to underwater race. Essentially, why drop anything? If there is a time and place for it, and as long as the more site specific dives aren't made mandatory, leave it be.

What to add/change? That's more interesting. I'd like to see underwater conservation taken more seriously in general, so I think the fish ID/naturalist modules could do with updating. I feel like the naturalist dive was born in a different era and that the AWARE dives were just slapped in later as opposed to integrated in. I'd like to see all of that more unfied, and then, perhaps, there could be separate modules for different regions. In my world, I see naturalist taught this way, and PADI's structure gets thrown out the window anyway, but I'd like to see it from them.

Any more (constructive) ideas?

[bfw]

And then there are other possible considerations: Diving into Troubled Waters: Sexual Discrimination in a Male Dominated Recreational Culture (http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED362462&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED362462).


Sounds like the same sort of pseudo-scientific crap that's prompting Congress to consider Title IX quotas for science and engineering courses.

Studies on discrimination start with a conclusion and then twist whatever they must to support it. Politics and science are a worse mix than politics and religion.

[Thalassamania]

Sounds like the same sort of pseudo-scientific crap that's prompting Congress to consider Title IX quotas for science and engineering courses.

Studies on discrimination start with a conclusion and then twist whatever they must to support it. Politics and science are a worse mix than politics and religion.I do'nt know, I read the entire paper and if you ignore the BS jargon it is kind of interesting. But ... not the point I'm interested in here, which is just how pervasive the dropout rate is as demonstrated by how widespread the commentary on it is, and how no one feels a need to reference it.

[mgmonk]

I guess that's a no

[peterbj7]

regimented and personalized
Aren't these opposites?

[mgmonk]

Aren't these opposites?

:mooner:

I meant strict. As in a structure that would be geared towards your personalized interests but regimented within your choices. ie, you can choose what modules you want to take, when you want to take them, and where you want to dive them, but I provide a strict, regimented (maybe taxing) set of criteria for you to meet before I will consider the skills "mastered"

But my guess is that you knew exactly what I meant
:blinking:

[Thalassamania]

Actually I'm glad you sort of explained it. I had no idea of what you meant, and frankly I'm still not completely sure.

[mgmonk]

HA! think you can drag me into your back and forth.

So, the other thing I was thinking about was something that dealt with responsible hunting. I've never hunted myself, but it was popular when I used to dive in CA and I do see it sometimes now. If people are getting into diving with the intention of hunting, it might be good for everyone if they learned safe and responsible practices from the start.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I guess that's a no

Actually, some of us answered your question way back when this thread got started ... you can find my answer in reply #22.

I agree with what you said ... what gets taught, and the methods for teaching it effectively are going to vary within the constraints of local diving conditions.

However, basic skills can be applied within those constraints ... and my only objection to AOW as it's most commonly taught is that there doesn't seem to be any emphasis on actually teaching anything ... it's all about experiencing different conditions. To my concern, without the skills all you're doing is exposing students to those conditions in a way that provides a false sense of security, and assuming they'll learn what they need to know on their own before they get themselves in trouble ... or sell them yet another class that promises to teach them more.

Fundamental skills like dive planning, gas management, buoyancy control, situational awareness, communication, buoyancy control, propulsion techniques ... these can be taught and improved upon at any level of diving, and under any conditions. What I would most like to see with AOW is more emphasis on teaching someone how to properly prepare for these dives before doing them ... rather than just taking them on a "trust me" experience and expecting them to learn how to do it properly by signing up for a follow-on class.

For example, in my AOW class I WILL NOT take a student on a deep dive until they demonstrate to me that they have proper buoyancy control, can ascend and hold a proper safety stop mid-water (because they might have to), can perform an OOA without touching the bottom (because there might not be one), and understand gas management sufficient to know beforehand that they are carrying adequate gas supplies for the dive they're planning to do.

Those are not particularly difficult skills ... and any recreational diver should have them to one degree or another. If we don't emphasize those skills in the first class or two, when ... and how ... are students expected to learn them?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[emttim]

He was right. Unfortunately. But it is not just that they take people down there. While doing some research before my own trip, I ran into an article written by a DM who described getting angry at a diver who was having ear issues because they had to stop at about 70 feet instead of going all the way:shakehead:

Incredible. I guess people who take awhile to equalize like me would just enrage ******** errr dive ops like that. :D

[String]

Drop out rates are very high.

Typically here in the club we'll take on 6-8 trainees and roughly 2 will eventually complete training and qualify.

By far the biggest thing that makes people drop out is the cost. Most have absolutely no idea how gear intensive the hobby is and when they find out they realise they can't afford or justify it and so stop training or never continue diving.

[bfw]

I do'nt know, I read the entire paper and if you ignore the BS jargon it is kind of interesting. But ... not the point I'm interested in here, which is just how pervasive the dropout rate is as demonstrated by how widespread the commentary on it is, and how no one feels a need to reference it.

The papers on the gender gap in hard science manage to convince some very educated senators, too.

As for the drop out rate, PADI won't talk about it publicly, but in member forums, there have been pesentations that tossed out a 90% dropout rate. Of course that's based on PADI's awareness of the subjects' diving, which is largely based on continuuing ed statistics. I think the problem is that PADI has looked for growth in THEIR business, which is intake of new divers at the front end (most of their income comes from OW and below materials and credentials) and that's coming at the expense of the rest of the industry, because they depend on continued diving by existing divers. The way to grow the front end intake is to expand that market into population segments who won't dive long term, but will invest a few months of their lives in it just for the "been there, done that" cachet value, and then they'll be off to add bungee jumping, or street luging, or whatever else Reality TV has added to the "must do" list. These people will NEVER become long term divers; because they lack any attention span, ability to make long term commitments, or sense of the value of deferred gratification, but they spend money like there's no tomorrow, and there are a bajillion of them who haven't ridden the scuba-go-round yet. A certification agency can rake in great profits for at least 20 years on this market, just churning them out through the cert mill, and if, after one trip to Club Med and a round of elephant diving (just wrap your trunk around the tail in front of you and everything will be fine) they never dive again, so what. The cert agency doesn't make anything off people just going diving. Sooner or later, the rest of the industry needs to figure out that the cert agency's economic interests are not the same as theirs, and may at times even be in conflict. Regarding the question above about non-profits, the NON-ECONOMIC interests of a non-profit cert agency are much more aligned with the economic interests of the rest of the industry.

[leapfrog]

The papers on the gender gap in hard science manage to convince some very educated senators, too.

As for the drop out rate, PADI won't talk about it publicly, but in member forums, there have been pesentations that tossed out a 90% dropout rate. Of course that's based on PADI's awareness of the subjects' diving, which is largely based on continuuing ed statistics. I think the problem is that PADI has looked for growth in THEIR business, which is intake of new divers at the front end (most of their income comes from OW and below materials and credentials) and that's coming at the expense of the rest of the industry, because they depend on continued diving by existing divers. The way to grow the front end intake is to expand that market into population segments who won't dive long term, but will invest a few months of their lives in it just for the "been there, done that" cachet value, and then they'll be off to add bungee jumping, or street luging, or whatever else Reality TV has added to the "must do" list. These people will NEVER become long term divers; because they lack any attention span, ability to make long term commitments, or sense of the value of deferred gratification, but they spend money like there's no tomorrow, and there are a bajillion of them who haven't ridden the scuba-go-round yet. A certification agency can rake in great profits for at least 20 years on this market, just churning them out through the cert mill, and if, after one trip to Club Med and a round of elephant diving (just wrap your trunk around the tail in front of you and everything will be fine) they never dive again, so what. The cert agency doesn't make anything off people just going diving. Sooner or later, the rest of the industry needs to figure out that the cert agency's economic interests are not the same as theirs, and may at times even be in conflict. Regarding the question above about non-profits, the NON-ECONOMIC interests of a non-profit cert agency are much more aligned with the economic interests of the rest of the industry.

Hi guys. Been off the thread for awhile, like to get back in. First I would like to apologise to Thalassa about my final remark. It's just that those of us who teach with PADI ARE BORED BY SO MUCH padibashing. So if I was rude, I'm sorry.

The drpout thing is something that I have looked at very carefully over the years. The sex discrimination thing too.

On dropouts. Effectively a lot of people start activities and don't continue. A lot of couples start diving before they get married on on their honeymoon and then time, costs, children and a host of other things get int the way. There is a whole other group of people who have "bad" experiences that don't get sorted by the centers and don't come back.

The "official"statistic that I manage is that 50% of people who do OWD or similar with another agency WILL NEVER DIVE AGAIN. Apparently a lot of this is because in couples one of the members persuaded the other to do the course but there was no interest in going on.

I can't talk about other centers, but most of the ones I have worked for tend to concentrate on building a core client basis and rappor with X number of divers who will come back and each DCO and center has their strategy.

I know one guy who is very successful and making a lot of money and the center working flat out 365 days a year. Apart from the fact he is in an ideal location he basically is not interested in front end students and often sends them down the street to other centers. He focuses the business on giving quality service to qulaity divers and ealises that if he mixes junior divers in, the better divers won't come back. He sells a lot of equipment (people upgrading from something they had as an OWD) and mainly sells tech courses to people who want to go one step beyond.

However, I also happen to have worked for MR.OWD INSTRUCTOR, agreat guy who really takes OWD training seriously because as he says, his NAME is on those cert cards, so he wants to turn out the best OWDs in the country and his standards are high. He has disagreements on a number of occasions with people doing OWD and AOWD because he has said that he will not certify them and they have to do more dives to get certified.

Personally, I try to get anybody on my watch to build towards and do Rescue, not because of the money but because I believe in it.

As far as sexual discrimination, many women discriminate against themselves. As a skydiver as well, I can say that most of the time there is an 80/20 ratio between young men and women in both SCUBA and skydiving. Men are simply more attracted to these kind of activities. There are well studied antropological reasons for this, amongst which is that men have a different attitude to risk than women. How many women race drivers or superbike racers are there?

Threre is a percentage of women who are interested in diving and go on. Actually I happen to have a buddy who is doing IDC right now: she was attached to Special Forces in the Army.... I get a lot of nice female students but I think they get turned off from all of us guys wanting to crry their kit and beoing too protective....:crafty:

[mgmonk]

Bob,
well put.

And I did read your earlier post before I made my comments.
I was just attempting to redirect the conversation back to its origins. ;)

[tedtim]

....Sooner or later, the rest of the industry needs to figure out that the cert agency's economic interests are not the same as theirs, and may at times even be in conflict.... Yes, well when at least one of the agencies really pushes the continuing education route (read: get more c-cards), then the focus is clear. I know that my LDS has a low margin on running their courses unless they are full consistently.

I have not taken what I would call a "certification" course in a few years. I have taken a number of not in the water diving related courses that result in a qualification (from DAN and PSI for example). I have also taken training that I truly did not care whatsoever if it led to yet another certification card. On our last visit to Bonaire I spent a few $$ in sessions called Dive with the Naturalist learning about the marine life and habits - no C-card given, no C-card wanted. I have also taken some training from underwater photographers, one of which offered the opportunity to get the C-card, but I was not interested.

As for redesigning an AOW course, I do believe that it does not have to be related to any specialty, but rather a progressive approach to learning additional skills and improving upon those that should have been learned in the OW course. The way it is viewed from an SCUBA certificaton agency perspective is more marketing than any other consideration IMO.

[owlbill]

I am way too lazy to read this entire thread, so here is what we do for AOW.......

We will take people fresh out of Scuba Diver/Open Water (we teach NAUI, so Scuba Diver is Open Water) but of course, we know they will generally require more dives than minimum. Our curriculum includes AOW, Deep Specialty and Nitrox. A day of screening dives, followed by an apprenticeship style course that lasts until we instructors feel they deserve (have earned) their certifications. So long as the agencies continue to call in "advanced" we will do our best to make it "advanced" and not intermediate.

For what it's worth, we charge $440 per head for instructor time and books. Students are responsible for everything else (charter fees, gear, transportation etc.)

[vicdiver656]

Oy! I like that one!

[The_DivePirate]

I can't believe this is still going! For one, do we really think it will do a HILL OF BEANS anyway?:confused: For two, figured that someone with let's say 25-100 dives would have had it all figured out by now.:rofl3: Oh, by the way, it was GREAT being able too put faces too some of the members here on the board at the expo last weekend! Sorry that I couldn't get time too get in a dive with you Bob, but that just makes another excuse too get back up and get a dive or two in when things aren't so hectic.

Joe

[NWGratefulDiver]

I'll look forward to it, Joe ... was nice to meet you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Dufuzz54]

Many moons ago, my instructor told me what I needed for my AOW: Deep, Night, S & R, Nav. and PPB. I still think they are the best choices for divers at this stage of their training.

[leapfrog]

Many moons ago, my instructor told me what I needed for my AOW: Deep, Night, S & R, Nav. and PPB. I still think they are the best choices for divers at this stage of their training.
Sounds good to me. You could say that the PPB should have been achieved during OWD and substitute it for Multilevel or Enriched Air, but I agree with the principles.

[jsdavis]

On redesigning AOW, I believe more time should be be given to To Navagation. Keep deep and night along with some intro rescue on aiding fellow divers. The specialties should be saved for specialty courses. Also there should be a minimum of maybe 20 logged dives after OW as an entrance requirement. Many divers are taken from Open Water to Advanced with no other diving. They are then considered "advanced" and may now go on the "advanced boat" into diving that they may not really be prepared for.

[owlbill]

On redesigning AOW, I believe more time should be be given to To Navagation. Keep deep and night along with some intro rescue on aiding fellow divers. The specialties should be saved for specialty courses. Also there should be a minimum of maybe 20 logged dives after OW as an entrance requirement. Many divers are taken from Open Water to Advanced with no other diving. They are then considered "advanced" and may now go on the "advanced boat" into diving that they may not really be prepared for.

Exactly the problem. The agencies will likely not change the course title, so why don't we as instructors take it upon ourselves to pool courses together, or add more dives, or whatever it takes so that the students come away with skills to match the card label.

Skip the cookie cutter courses and just give fewer levels of better courses. That is why we do our course the way we do. Totally different than anyone else in the area and the end result is students/divers who are much more skilled, confident and more keen to dive.

[leapfrog]

Exactly the problem. The agencies will likely not change the course title, so why don't we as instructors take it upon ourselves to pool courses together, or add more dives, or whatever it takes so that the students come away with skills to match the card label.

Skip the cookie cutter courses and just give fewer levels of better courses. That is why we do our course the way we do. Totally different than anyone else in the area and the end result is students/divers who are much more skilled, confident and more keen to dive.
This is so refreshing to hear. The agencies do a good job. The key to any education system is the quality of the teachers (Instructors) and the Students, not the system itself. Most people "get through" college but some students strive for excellence. To pursue excellence in a non competitive activity requires a special kind of person. It is the teachers/instructors and the students themselves who make all the difference.

As an Instructor do you just want to "certify divers" or do you want "your" divers to be the best and to make you proud? After all, your name IS on the back of that little piece of plastic!

As a student, do you just want to pass and get certified or do want to be number one, the best of your class and the best Advanced Open Water Diver in the water? Do you think it is better to be a bad Divemaster than an excellent Rescue Diver?

Most of us have seen the movie "Top Gun".

In the movie, the guys at "Top Gun" strive to win the "Top Gun Trophy". In reality there is no trophy at Fighter Weapons School in Miramar. Why? Because a. the pilots would end up killing themselves and b. it's enough to graduate and be the best of best.

So, in diving be the best you can, whether it be as an instructor or any other level of diver and "if nobody else wants to dive with you, call me, I will!".

[noah813]

I only read up to page 5, but it seems there is a constant theme. From an instuctor's point of view, AOW is an extension of OW...a great course to become a diver comfortable diving without a guide in your geographic location. Lets face it most people take a class, and never dive unless they are with a DM or instructor. I encourage everyone to take it.
NAUI's required dives are Night, Deep, and Navigation. The other three dives can be any specialty. I know "how is boat diving a specialty?" And I agree, but some bone head out there will pay an instructor 100 bucks to learn to dive off a boat, which should be taught in OW. The "boat dive" will consist of things such as: new entry method, air consumpion, carry a flag, navigate using the terrain, dive without an instructor telling them what to do, what animals you dont touch, being a good buddy, getting on the boat without the support of a DM, etc. I just sit back, watch everything that goes on, and I inform my students if they F-ed up, and I can evaluate them. I can use a "wreck dive" to teach dangers while diving on wrecks, navigating a large wreck, air consumption/turn around points and why, inform them on what is needed to penetrate the wreck, and why we don't do it. "Search and Recovery" to boat owners to find things that often fall off of personal boats, or public safety divers. Seach patterns and operating a lift bag in limited or no vis diving can be challenging. NAUI divers are taught rescues in OW, in AOW I can expand on that and make it a challenging experience instead of just going through the numbers....you wont be a "rescue diver" but you will have the basic tools to get someone to the surface, or ensure a paniced diver on the surface is safe. These can be taught as B.S. extra dives, if you Instructor lets them be that. or they can be great learning experiences and/or just making a diver more comfortable diving without an instuctor or guide. As far as the required dives, if your instructor is bringing you to 61 feet, calling it deep or making you swim in a square with out telling you how to navigate using the terrain and sealife, and checking a box, he needs his c-card taken from him.

PADI instructors must use their cards and teach you whats on them....which can be a good thing because some instructors need a reminder
NAUI instructors must teach a minimum of skills/knowledge, and are free to teach above and beyond that.
The cert. agency doesn't matter, the Instructor does. It sounds like many of you got the short end of the stick when selecting your instructors.
I'm done, thanks for reading.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Exactly the problem. The agencies will likely not change the course title, so why don't we as instructors take it upon ourselves to pool courses together, or add more dives, or whatever it takes so that the students come away with skills to match the card label.

Skip the cookie cutter courses and just give fewer levels of better courses. That is why we do our course the way we do. Totally different than anyone else in the area and the end result is students/divers who are much more skilled, confident and more keen to dive.

Some of us are doing that ... I learned it from a PADI instructor who's been taking that approach for years, and doing it within standards. He does all the right dives ... he just makes sure that no matter what dives the student selects, they are going to have some skills thrown into that they need to master in order to achieve the objectives of the dive.

Gave me a whole new paradigm on teaching the class.

Of course, being a NAUI instructor, I had more leeway to do it my way than he did. But seriously, any instructor from any agency can make AOW more of a learning experience. It's really a matter of what they believe the goals of the class to be.

If all you consider it is a chance for the student to get a few more supervised dives, that's all you'll end up offering. If you see it as an opportunity to take the diver's skills to a higher level, you'll offer that.

Anyone who takes AOW should be asking their instructor this question ... "What is the purpose of the class, and what will you be teaching me?"

The answer to that question may very well tell you how much you'll take away from the class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Trixxie]

I think even Search and Recovery is of little use.

a bit late to this party but would like to respectfully disagree with this.

I was in the cayman islands - I rented a camera - dropped said camera while on my s.s. - had no idea when on the s.s. I dropped said camera but HAD to find it as I could not afford to replace it. I remembered the search patterns I learned in my AOW S&R class and a few stressful moments later I had found said camera and went back to do another s.s. with camera in a death grip..

Just my .02.

Thanks!

[Blackwood]

The key to any education system is the quality of the teachers (Instructors) and the Students, not the system itself.

True, though the quality of instructors is in many ways dependent upon the quality of the system.

That said, I agree with you 100% that if a student merely wants to get by, there isn't a whole lot anyone can do about it.



In reality there is no trophy at Fighter Weapons School in Miramar. Why? Because a. the pilots would end up killing themselves and b. [B]it's enough to graduate and be the best of best.

and c. Top Gun school isn't at Miramar. It's at Fallon in Nevada :P

[leapfrog]

and c. Top Gun school isn't at Miramar. It's at Fallon in Nevada :P :(My mistake, it was at Miramar until 1996, when the USMC took over the base, is that right? Thanks for setting the record straight.

[Thalassamania]

:(My mistake, it was at Miramar until 1996, when the USMC took over the base, is that right? Thanks for setting the record straight.Nive try at a save, but no cigar ... sorry, you flunk being cool and macho.:D

[Blackwood]

:(My mistake, it was at Miramar until 1996, when the USMC took over the base, is that right? Thanks for setting the record straight.

Yah. I grew up down in San Diego and went to the NAS Miramar air show annually since I was about 5 years old. When the USMC took it back (I think it was theirs up through WW2 or so) in 1996, the show seemed to lose a bit of its awe, but it was probably just psychological (since it was no longer the home of the TOPGUN school).

[DevonDiver]

From an instructors perspective....

I have four dives with an OW student. I do my utmost to make them the best possible divers in that time. If that student opts to do the AOW course, then I have a further 5 dives to develop them (more than double). Those extra 5 dives work wonders.

Some have suggest that instructors add extra dives etc to the OW course. Nice idea - but I have rent to pay, food to buy, equipment to service etc, so students pay for my time. When they pay for that time, they get my utmost attention and the full benefit of my experience and the HUGE amounts of money and time that I have invested getting to this level of diving.

jsdavis.....read this thread properly. Nobody who dives professionally would ever consider the AOW course to be an 'advanced' diving qualification. IMHO, I wouldn't consider someone to be a 'real' diver until they had the full spectrum of rescue skills - that is the minimum I'd want from a buddy for recreational diving. Anything less is just work for me, as I'd be holding their hands and have no confidence in their ability to help me if I had any sort of problem.

Comments on 'Boat Diver' - generally a useless option for AOW - unless you did the OW course as shore dives (happens in some locales) or if you are going to be diving from a drastically different type of boat, requiring new skills and techniques (i.e. RIB diving).

Redesign AOW?....well, the whole POINT of the course is that any student has the option to mould the course to their own personal requirements and gain from the course what they feel they need. Why do some people (normally the least experienced) feel that they need to tell the agencies, the instructors and another world's supply worth of students what they should be doing with their diving?!?!?

[dbulmer]

"Why do some people (normally the least experienced) feel that they need to tell the agencies, the instructors and another world's supply worth of students what they should be doing with their diving?!?!? "

Because feedback from those who have taken a course can help to identify areas of weakness and strengths in diver development.

[DevonDiver]

"Why do some people (normally the least experienced) feel that they need to tell the agencies, the instructors and another world's supply worth of students what they should be doing with their diving?!?!? "

Because feedback from those who have taken a course can help to identify areas of weakness and strengths in diver development.

Thanks for using my quote out of context and in isolation from the rest of my post. Really - the course is designed to be flexible and modular - allowing an element of choice and adaptation by the individual student. It also designed to develop the confidence and basic skills of entry level divers - only to such a level where they would be capable of carrying out a rescue course and/or diving with a little more personal responsibility. If you got nothing out of it, then you need to blame yourself - as either you chose the wrong dive options or you chose the wrong instructor.

[dbulmer]

I think you are protesting too much. You posted your instructor view and the quote out of context is in reply to a specific concern that you had as an instructor.

First of all I did not attack AOW - I think it's a good idea for some divers but the motivation behind doing AOW can be different for some divers.
I did AOW for insurance purposes. I was already familiar with a lot of the course content before I set off as I got the AOW manual myself before attending the course in Mexico. I dive regularly in the UK in an SAA club so I already had a good understanding of gas management. As a UK diver I also have to be proficient in DSMB deployment as you know - it's not one of my strengths - I did a mid water deployment with a spool and lost about 4m in buoyancy control - my instructor then showed me how to do it - he lost 8m in control. When the instructor did the DSMB deployment with my father his buoyancy did not move more than a metre or so.

The AOW was Deep,Navigation, Drift, Underwater Naturalist and Fish ID. Fish ID was what I enjoyed the most but I was offered a choice over the electives - take it or leave it.

Yes I could have gone to another shop but chose the operator for convenience and I liked the instructor. He did tailor the drift dive and offered advice to me and my buddy (my DAD who at the time had 200+ dives in various warm water location and I had to persuade him to do the course ).

On the subject of the instructor, before I went to Mexico I was given the name of a good instructor from someone on Scubaboard but he'd left when I got there so I stayed with the shop.
That was my choice - right or wrong.

The instructor from the shop looked at our log books and you could see him thinking what the hell do I do with these guys ? He saw my sac and minimum gas calculations and I think he was genuinely trying to find something to add but could not think of anything - BTW that's not ego talking - I'm not a natural diver I've had to work harder than most to get comfy in the water.

I never play the blame game - ultimately the diver has to learn how to dive safely and responsibly - courses such as AOW can indeed accelerate that learning process for some people particularly those who dive perhaps one or twice a year but for others such as me who dive all year round AOW is not the only way to advance diving skills.

[fisherdvm]

Redesign AOW?....well, the whole POINT of the course is that any student has the option to mould the course to their own personal requirements and gain from the course what they feel they need. Why do some people (normally the least experienced) feel that they need to tell the agencies, the instructors and another world's supply worth of students what they should be doing with their diving?!?!?


I don't know if half of the students out there have the option to "mould" the course to their own personal requirements - unless they were willing to pay private lesson price. They might be lucky to have one elective - ie - one fluffy course for another fluffy adventure dive. But I think the majority of AOW classes do not give great flexibility. The second part of your question, why should the "least experienced" be telling agencies and instructors what to do? Because they are the one closest to the answer of the initial question. Where the rubber meets the road.

[scubajcf]

I was Redoing my lesson plan for my Advanced Diver course when I came upon this thread. I decided to write down a lot of the ideas generated in it. I came up with a pretty comprehensive list of ideas. Most I agree with, but all valuable nonetheless. I think it is very objective (I left out a lot of the commentary and redundancy). I did paraphrase on occassion and hope I did not take anyone out of context. I apologize in advance if I did. I thought I would share my findings with all the good people here. Thanks for your input!

• FisherDVM: Keep the following: Navigation, Search and Recovery, Deep Dives
• FisherDVM: Eliminate “garbage” like photography, naturalist and boat
• FisherDVM: Add Peak Performance Buoyancy, proper weight balance and management, Rock Bottom Management.
• GUBA: Require Night Diving
• Randy43068: Proper Trim and Holding Stops, Discussion on Pros and Cons of BP/W vs. Jacket Style BC, Discussion on Neoprene causing dynamic instability
• Rick Inman: Gas Management
• Teamcasa: Search and Recovery is of little use. See Safety Stop holding without a line and expand navigation to more than a simple square route. AOW should include more buoyancy activities and buddy diving experiences (awareness)
• Diver85: Change Name to something that does not represent an advanced diver after 20 dives (paraphrasing)
• Walter: Require night, deep, low viz, wreck and search and recovery, increase the required dives to 10 and throw in some real academics
• UCFdiver: More buoyancy, better communication (low viz) and get rid of the deep dive. See GUI Fundamentals
• NWGratefulDiver: How to plan a dive, how to be a good buddy, diving at night or in limited visibility, techniques for efficient trim and propulsion, managing stress, (how to deal with task loading), proper ascent/descent techniques, deploying an SMB.
• UCFDiver: Be able to hover (not moving) at the same elevation for 1 minute, Not have any lose gear, know basic decompression planning (gas management and gas matching), basic field fear troubleshooting.
• BDub: bubble management (Buhlmann vs. minimum deco, etc.)
• PCBCaptChris: Offer Nitrox as an upgrade on every AOW
• Change from AOW to OW2 – multiple sources
• Littlejohn:
o Basic OW – 6 Dives, 60’ max …
o OW – 12 Dives Buoyancy/Trim/Deep/Gas Management to 90’/Night
o AOW – 30 Dives, Deep and Gas Management to 130’/Peak Performance Buoyancy/Stress and Rescue/Navigation and Search
o Master Diver – 60 Dives, Advanced Stress and Rescue/Overhead Penetration/Recreational Dive Lead/Advanced Search
• BDub: SAC/RMV Calculations
• NWGratefulDiver: AOW up, Interview students prior to the class. Discuss Goals. Eliminate Card Collectors
• BDub: Horizontal Descent, face to face, not touching the bottom when reaching the bottom, proficient buoyancy control throughout the dive, even when tasked with OOG, Mask Skills, Navigation, Horizontal ascent, face to face, holding all stops (typically, three stops) Do stops while sharing air.
• BDub: Teach not diving deeper than the volume of air in your tank (you carry)
• TSandM: Topics not problem, no meat behind the topics.
• Shoupart: Beach Diving, Night Diving, Deep Diving, Navigation Skills and Buoyancy Skills. Something about gauging a site (boat or shore) Maybe some fun topics on top of that.
• NWGratefulDiver: 3 minute, 20’ Triangle. Navigation on every dive.
• Garrobo: CESA from various depths and compass navigation
• Nannymouse: Buoyancy control / Gas Consumption (all dives), Navigation (Natural and Compass – 2 Dives, or parts of several dives), Situational awareness / good buddy (1 full dive or parts of others), Night/Low Viz (2 dives), Deco Awareness/Narcosis (1 or 2 dives), Propulsion/Finning (1st dive and parts of others)
• Blackwood: Sees this as a part of a BOW – (1) Proficiency of Safe Dive techniques including pre-dive, inwater and post dive activities and assessment, (2) Awareness of team member location and safety (responding to visual cues), donate gas to out of air diver, donate gas to OAD and do direct ascent, demonstrate two propulsion techniques in silty water, safe demeanor during all training, deploy spool and marker, proficient buoyancy and trim, proficient in underwater communication, proficient with equipment, aptitude with open water skills such as mask clearing, removal and replacement, regulator removal and replacement and long hose deployment, safe ascent and descent procedures, proficient valve drill.
• NWGratefulDiver: (sums it up) Dive planning, gas management, situational awareness, communication, buoyancy control, propulsion techniques. More emphasis on proper dive preparation
• Owlbill: Bundle AOW, Deep and Nitrox. Add a day of screening dives, followed by an apprenticeship style course that lasts until instructors feel they have earned their certication. Make it an advanced course, not an intermediate. They charge $440 for instructor time and books.
• JSDavis: Intro to Rescue. Up minimum requirement to 20 logged dives.

[Thalassamania]

I was Redoing my lesson plan for my Advanced Diver course when I came ... Great list. For the Do it Your Selfers: Sodium Acetate hot packs (http://www.webringtheheat.com/).

[on_two_wheels]

Okay, after 5 pages I finally just decided to share my thoughts rather than reading on and on. First, let me say that for a new diver, this has been a GREAT thread.

Second, let me address the difference in opinions here. UFCDIVER, I totally understand your point but, unfortunately, you're way of thinking is similar to that of public schools. Modify the training for the dumb ones rather than making the dumb ones smarter.

Third, if peak performance buoyancy skills include being face to face, helping them maintain their position, then they aren't exhibiting "peak performance." They should be able to do so with just a guage, particulates, etc.

Lastly, I think AOW is a joke. It's purely a money maker. The whole idea of it is to get people interested in taking more classes, thus spending more money. If they really were interested in making people better divers, I agree with those that suggest better dive planning (incl gas mgmt), buoyancy control, etc is they way.

If AOW wasn't required for Rescue Diver, I wouldn't have taken it. Mine consisted of turning in knowledge reviews, then 5 dives. Deep, Night, Nav, Fish ID, and photo. The first three were fun. The only true learning experience was during the nav dive. The last two were useless to me because I, like everyone else here, could not relate them to "advanced" diving. I had no options on the 5 dives....they were chosen for the students.

[leapfrog]

Lastly, I think AOW is a joke. It's purely a money maker. The whole idea of it is to get people interested in taking more classes, thus spending more money. If they really were interested in making people better divers, I agree with those that suggest better dive planning (incl gas mgmt), buoyancy control, etc is they way.

If AOW wasn't required for Rescue Diver, I wouldn't have taken it. Mine consisted of turning in knowledge reviews, then 5 dives. Deep, Night, Nav, Fish ID, and photo. The first three were fun. The only true learning experience was during the nav dive. The last two were useless to me because I, like everyone else here, could not relate them to "advanced" diving. I had no options on the 5 dives....they were chosen for the students.

Well, I think you are making a statement based on your personal experience. Nothing wrong with that but the whole point of AOW is that you do a proper deep dive, which if done correctly gives you an idea of what going down to thirty meters is all about, especially the effects of narcosis on your reflexes compared to being at sea level. Navigation can be as advanced as the conditions and the Instructor allow. Not the same navigating at night or no viz than in the Carribean on a sunny day.

Night should have been good and can also be advanced....or not. Obviously Fish ID and Photo are hardly advanced but other options are "better"... Wreck Diving, etc

[Jim Lapenta]

I am in the process of setting up a lesson plan for my advanced course now. I have already settled on 10 dives as the required number. 2 deep, 2 uw nav, 2 search and recovery, 2 night/low vis, and 2 buoyancy where we will work on trim, weighting, and populsion. I will not offer stuff like fish ID, photography, boat etc as seperate dives, If we do some of the dives from a boat I'm not going to charge extra to tell someone how to do something they should have and do cover in my ow class. These core courses are the ones I can cert in now. Once I get the outlines done and paperwork sent in I'll offer drysuit and wreck. But these will not be done inside the AOW. Now some of the AOW dives may be done on a wreck site but there will be no penetration and the skills may be done on the wreck site as opposed to another site. I plan to also include a minimum of 8 hours of classroom. This will be spent going over gas planning, navigational techniques, further discussion of deco procedures beyond what is covered in OW ( we teach deco procedures for emergencies in YMCA), and more indepth equipment discussion. In the buoyancy class we will also do SMB deployment. While there will be 2 specific dives for uw nav we will be practicing nav skills on all dives. I'm also looking at the feasibility of requiring a couple pre class dives to assess skills, determine SAC rate and just judge the students comfort level. I have not set a price yet but it will not be one of those 150 dollar one weekend 5 dive courses. There are guidelines for AOW in the YMCA manual but we are allowed to expand on them and require more. If I run into the situation where someone with years of experience comes to me and wants and advanced card just to dive some particular sites then I may go by the minimum guidelines AFTER determining that this would not compromise their safety. Face it there are people who've beeen diving for years and un all kinds of conditions but just never bothered getting an advanced card. If someone like Dr Bill who has an LA county cert and verifiable experience came to me to get an advanced card because on operator requires it I'm not going to make him do the whole thing I've outlined even though I feel it's a good course. But if someone wants to do a quickie so they can go to Fla and do the Grove I'm not going to feel comfortable issuing a card if I feel doing so would put them at risk. I'd rather let them go somewhere else and have it be on someone else's head. I'll try my best to get them to take my course but I can't force someone who is determined to rush through this to take the class from me. I'm hoping this will be a worthwhile endeavor. I became a Y instructor because I want to do what is in the best interest of the student and keep them as safe as possible. I welcome feedback on this. I'd especially like Walter's, NW Grateful's, and Thal's input as well as that of other I'm gonna rush em through instructors.