knifes from Taiwan (?)

[Gaucho]

My local dive shop sells only knives from Italy & Germany because they say the taiwanese & chinese ones just dont have the same quality. Ive seen both kinds and the price differences are substantial.

Are the European blades worth the difference, or should I go with the Asian ones?

[rcontrera]

There are some beautiful European and Japanese knives out there and most of them aren't cheap! However, you need to look at a knife as a tool and know that you may lose one from time to time. Of all the stuff that I have found on dives over the years, dive knives rate right up there at the top in terms of numbers.

In the 80s a company named Wenoka helped move the dive knife price from around $20 to way over $60. They were fine knives, but they created an artificially high price for that good old $20-30 tool.

I tried selling a knife to dive shops last year that would run only $39.95 and they tossed me out! They told me that the customers wanted a more expensive and higher quality item. Well, maybe so.

I guess it comes down to personal preference and how cheap you are.

Just my $.02

Ray

[Gaucho]

Good point, Ray. Most italian knifes Ive seen are in the $70-100 range. The strange thing is that Im finding that the Taiwanese pieces Im seeing are more appealing in terms of design. I guess I will also look for Japanese ones. Can you recommend any other brands (besides Wenoka) I should look for? Thanks.

[rcontrera]

Can't help you there. I have been selling these $20 knives for so long that I have stopped looking at the higher dollar ones. You just have to look around at some of the other dive shops and just find something you like!

Just my $.02

Ray

PS If you want one of my $20 specials just drop me a line at ray@rayzplace.com

[scubabunny]

Make sure you check the grade (don't know if that is the right word) of the steel. I thing the lower the number, the better the steel..but it could be the other way around. From what I've noticed the money for the cheaper knives is saved on the sheath. The knife may be great...but the sheath that holds it is basic, cheap plastic, and likely to crack in your dive bag. Since most knives and sheaths are sold as a set, make sure you take a good look at that.

Also, the straps are to be closely examined (if they come with leg straps...another way they keep the cost down). Of course, if you find a knife with a qualitly sheath and good blade, but cheap straps, you can pick up a set of good straps for a decent price and will probably make it worth it.

[Green_Manelishi]

generally, the lower the number (300 series) the harder
and more corrosion resistant the steel: too bad it is also
not able to take and hold an edge. that's why SS bolt-snaps,
hose clamps and stuff are made of 300 series.

the better 400 series (440C etc) are not as hard or
corrosion resistant but take and hold an edge.

some 400 series (eg: "J") are NOT quality and tend to be found in use for cheap import "collector" knives.

[Gaucho]

Thanks for the numbers tips, I will be on the lookout this weekend.

[E-Boat]

Hey I think you might confusing, 300 series is the one that non corrosion cause it' has less carbon!! and that mean less sharp.
In other hand 400 has more carbon that help it got sharper edge. I'm i right fellow?

[tuti]

The higher the number the more carbon and corrosion but also the harder the steel. So called high-grade steel or stainless steel has only 0.02% carbon, but is not very hard and unsuitable for knives.

My dad bought a Taiwan knife, I've got a quallity steel German ranger knife (Herbertz). We threw them into a tree from a distance of 10 meters/30yards. The light Taiwan knive bended about 20° at the top 2 centimeters/1 inch. The very heavy and long ranger knive only 2°. No way I would buy a Taiwan knive!

I've bought a titanium knive (Seemann Sub, ~90USD/EUR). It's also not very hard. But it has no corrosion at all! Thats what's important to me. One item less I have to care about.

tuti :dead:

[d33ps1x]

tuti once bubbled...

My dad bought a Taiwan knife, I've got a quallity steel German ranger knife (Herbertz). We threw them into a tree from a distance of 10 meters/30yards. The light Taiwan knive bended about 20° at the top 2 centimeters/1 inch. The very heavy and long ranger knive only 2°. No way I would buy a Taiwan knive!

tuti :dead:

10 meters (32.8 feet)/30yards (90 feet). ??? Your dad threw the taiwanese knife 32.8 feet and you threw the German number 90 feet? Excellent.

Hmm..Well this has given me something to think about since I'm always having to throw my dive knife 100 odd feet and embed it into a tree. It's an awesome way to practice the skill set needed in an underwater recreational diving/combat situation... :confused:

[tuti]

Sorry I've mixed up yards and feet. We both threw the knifes 10meters/32.8feet. Of course this is no way you would use your knife while diving.
But it shows the quality of the steel! If you use your knife as a lever the strain at the end of the blade would be similar. It was easy to bend back the Taiwan knife (though it still has a slight S-type cuve). But it we hardly could bend back mine.

And sorry for the Rambo like impression you must have got from me.

tuti

:dead: :reaper: :maniac: :getsome: :mgun:

[ElectricZombie]

You couldn't pay me to use 99% of the knives sold at a dive shop. 300/400 series stainless steel is absolute junk. I use a ground down Victorinox kitchen knife...it will outcut any dive knife I've ever seen.

Taiwan, Japan, etc is capable of making an excellent knife. The problem is finding one made from a good steel.

[Bob3]

Don't automatically rule out a blade just because it's Asian; the folks over there will be more than happy to manufacture to whatever specs you want. Unfortuneatly most outfits specify CHEAP as a primary requirement.
A decent $35 titanium knife isn't unheard of.

[Mr. X]

I've had 3 Taiwanese Stainless steel dive knives -- I also own US, UK, German, Chinese and Swiss knives for other purposes. My mother also still uses a very cheap but excellent Japanese bread knife that she bought 30+ years ago from a market stall
(before Japanese goods became known for quality).

I think fancy knives are rather overrated -- but a moderate priced one can be a pleasure to own. For example, my mid-priced US lock knife & combat knife are fairly rough in finish but are good solid workhorses. Cheap brittle knives were common maybe 20 years ago -- I had a couple but I have not seen any recently. You can now buy cheap knives that are very good (the sheaths are often rubbish though!).
I have a couple of cheap ($1.50) chinese saw-blade pen knives (3" & 2") that have incredibly sharp blades but the most brittle, rubbish plastic handles -- I carry them in my ruck sack as cheap, light, disposable emergency knives that will easily slice through thick climbing tape/rope if an emergency decent is needed.

I lost my first dive knife first day out. It was an excellent weight, design and quality and was cheap at 7 pounds ($12). Not sure how it was lost (my first time diving in decades), I am normally very careful with gear. It could be the knife only locked properly in the sheath one way round (I have another knife like that).

Having lost a knife I bought two others. & marked them up with reflective tape. The second dive knife is a big shiney, blunt tip model with a hole in the middle -- quite common & cheap on ebay. I sharpened the rather dull blade & the flat tip up with a mill bast*rd file -- nice and sharp. I works well, I have cut myself free of fishing line, dispatched a spear fish and beheaded and gutted a large fish with it (the long-ish blade & saw on back made this a quick and easy job) -- ignore divers who say get a small knife or heavy scissors, for spearfishing off a snorkel, get a decent size knife. I always rinse all my gear, & occasionaly I touch up the blade & oil it -- however, this shiney knife does not rust. I attached a heavy elastic lanyard as a back up to the sheath -- but it caused the plastic sheath to break, however it was easily fixed with electricians tape & superglue. It is my main dive knife.

My third dive knife is my guest knife, it has a dull-coloured stainless steel blade that rusts after exposure to salt water, so it needs to be cleaned and oiled. However, its blade came very sharp and has stayed that way. I used it for a while when the sheath above failed but the knife is a bit too short to dispatch and/or behead/gut a large fish. It too has a flat tip, which I have sharped (to a flat chisel blade). This model, also popular on ebay, had several things that I did not like:
1. Handle was loose (easy fix: superglued it)
2. It fits sheath either way but locks only on one side (which has a button on the knife handle) -- so careful when re-sheathing.
3. The legs straps were too short for my muscley legs (fix: used the long strap on the bottom and salvaged a nice heavy duty strap from my first dive knife for the top).
4. Straps are stretchy (good) but have no strap loops, so I feed the loose end back under -- a bit trashy though, IMHO and the buckles move & distort in the stretchy strap.

Conclusion:
It is easy to loose dive knives. Buy cheap but good ones by all means.
- Mark them for easy retrieval (reflective tape, paint, float?) and
- back up the often poor sheaths/locks, or replace the sheaths
- add a lanyard & use it to secure the knife (make sure it is easy to release though).
- Sharpen the knives (a dull knife is a poor tool) -- sharpening stones and kitchen sharpeners are ok, but a mill b*stard file will get an edge on anything quickly (it may not look as pretty).
- many swear by a good, cheap kitchen or steak knife and sheath made of old hose-pipe or climbing tape (e.g. tube tape).

What Next?
I am considering buying a low-medium price spearo knife -- one of the Omer Stiletto designs (Hunter, etc.). They are reasonably priced. The sheath on the cheaper one (12 GBP/$20) appears to be rubber & looks robust. Oddly, the otherwise fine looking larger, more expensive knife (17 GBP /$30) has a glossy, bulky, plastic sheath that looks a lot like the cheap Taiwanese knives have. The Stilleto with rear saw blade design makes sense for spearfishing -- although the cheaper one seems too short to me for dispatching big fish. Apparently it is very popular with spearos, can be arm mounted; the stringer is perhaps the obvious alternative choice of dispatch tool (a big Rob Allen one, for example) or RA's dedicated dispatch tool (like a spear end with a handle and metal sheath -- similar to the old weapon they used to dispatch badly injured, armoured knights with). I like the look of the Rob Allen's webbing limpet sheath & may get one -- but the Rob Allen knife, although no doubt wonderful, is just way too pricey for me and for any knife with no proper handle (just bare stainless steel -- admittedly that might be perfect for a gloved spearo not wanting to get snagged -- but it must reduce manufacturing costs significantly); I have seen similar (not identical) stainless steel Taiwanese models which should be a reasonable alternative though. I believe Riffe do some interesting knives too -- probably overpriced for dentists & doctors though :(.

Ideal spearo knife? I reckon an old WWII British commando stilello shape & size, with a saw edge on one side (& perhaps a line notch -- although maybe that is a gimmick), a slightly flattened handle (Omer's knives are closest to this but a bit small) and a Rob Allen Limpet type sheath. Stiletto seems more humane (quicker, cleaner, simpler) than the currently trendy blunt tip blade (even when sharpened to a chisel edge).

[joed]

I got a Cressi Totem knife made in Italy. I like the design, I don't know how good the blade is as I haven't had to use it yet. Cost in Mexico was 40.00, I saw it and had to have it. When I got home I saw it on the internet for around 20.00.

[The Kraken]

Doesn't make a hoot in the holler where a knife is made . . .

What's important is is mollecular composition.

My main concern with a knife is that it be somewhat corrosion resistant, but more importantly, that I'm able to put and keep an exteremly sharp edge on it.

Personally, I prefer the 400-440 grade steels for a knife.

the K

[Mr. X]

I've had 3 Taiwanese Stainless steel dive knives -- I also own US, UK, German, Chinese and Swiss knives for other purposes.

Turns out the 2nd knife (shiney one - my current dive knife) was probably made in the Czech Republic & not Taiwan (the packaging was Czech anyway). It is really quite good (rubbish sheath though).

By the way, the best selection of knives I have come across recently it this international one (particularly like the Imersion models:), Sporasubs):
http://www.scubastore.com/shop.asp?id_familia=1&id_subfamilia=7

[The SPETTON SAMOA knife appears identical to my first Taiwanese knife -- the sheath is different though -- & the price is almost 300% more:(].

[Orlando Eric]

The Kraken is right!

As to "The Riddle of Steel." There are volumes of books written on it. For Knife collectors and makers they are as passionate about their craft and schools of thought as divers. DIR vs REC vs Tech vs etc etc etc...

There are a few standards. Stainless Steels. Lower the number the "Harder the knife."

a 300 series stainless is higher Carbon Lower Chrominium (sp?) than a 440. This makes the knife "harder" but less resistant to stain.

Greater Carbon= Higher strength = Lesser Stain Resistance
Higher Chromium = Lower strength = Higher Stain Resistance

There are exotic steels (see links) out there such as 440 V which should make a AWESOME dive knife but there does not seem to be many "Really good" Dive knives.

As for Titanium, as a matter of fact.... MOST AREN'T! I thought it was amazing that you could get a Titanium knife for $40.00 that was remarkable due to the cost of milling, honing shaping Titanium. When S&W started making Ti frames and cylinders the cost was +++$$$.

Most Ti Dive store Knives are 440 or 400 series Stainless and Ti COATED! (SOG Seal)

The Ocean Master knives say they are Beta Titanium and seem to be.

Mission Knives makes a true Ti knife (MPK) for over $300.00 dollars. If you want to spend the cash.

I recommend a 300 to 400 series (420 subzero quenched would be good) and a rinse job a couple knocks on a rod and you should be fine for ten years or so. You want to be sure to get a solid full tang blade. If you get a 440 make sure it is 440C and not 440A.

But then again I am a Wusthof (http://www.wusthof.com) guy and others like Global, Henckel, or Sabatier. It is all in preference and I have seen more knives on the sea floor than any other lost gear.

Links: Steel (http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~umschm08/aboutsteel.html)
More Steel (http://www.engnath.com/public/steel.htm)
Steel Again (http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/steel_guide/)
BladeForums (more than you need to know for a scuba knife) (http://www.bladeforums.com/)

[Mr. X]

Doesn't make a hoot in the holler where a knife is made . . .
Yes it does. Why are German and Japanese cars are so popular then? ;) Some countries invest more in quality because they have to sell based on quality because their costs are high (think EU). Other countries compete on price and therefore need to keep costs down -- which could mean less on materials (chrome,ore,scrap,fuel, limestone,...?), tools & instruments, less on quality (checking the mix, monitoring temperature, calibrating machines, cleaning the crucibles, employing people who give a darn & know what they are doing, and whatever else they may or may not do). So while I agree, somebody might be able to go to the PROC and make a knife of wonderful quality -- in general, the knives made there are likely to be cheap and of variable quality. Japan used to be like that too but they have concerned on quality & their costs have risen.

Like I said though, my cheapo dive knives are quite adequate. Some are better than others. Despite what the metallurgist say, the shiney one seems to take and hold an edge just as well as the duller ones that rust a bit. The main issue are the sheaths -- less glamerous but all important. Actually, Tesco's (British answer to Wallmart) currently has packets of 6 wooden handle, stainless steel steak knives for 5 pounds -- looks like they might be a good spearo knife or back up knife for arm mounting. (The ones with stainless steel handles are just over a pound each :( ;)!). For a sheath -- buy a very good one (RA Limpet) or make one from climber's tape or hose pipe!.

[KOMPRESSOR]

Jeeeez! It's just a knife! Who are you going to make an impression on? Get the cheap one. And what's with the Italian knives? Never heard their industry were so good with steel that it would matter.

Besides, you're gonna drop it and loose it one day anyway, won't you :D

[Damselfish]

Knife price is directly proportional to the likelyhood of losing it...

[Mr. X]

Jeeeez! It's just a knife! Who are you going to make an impression on? Get the cheap one. And what's with the Italian knives? Never heard their industry were so good with steel that it would matter.

Besides, you're gonna drop it and loose it one day anyway, won't you :D
I agree. Cheap & cheerful is the way to go. Also agree with the guy who suggested sometimes company's request "cheap" from Asian suppliers that are capable of quality (the result is the same though). I realise I was on shakey ground mentioning quality and the EU! :D Innovation & quality are increasingly important though. Re. Italian steel -- anybody remember the 1996 Lancia?! :11: Fiats vs. Ferraris, Buggatti vs. Vespas, Lamborgini's vs. Lamboretta's, etc. I guess you get all sorts! Italy seems to foster small businesses, innovation & craftsmanship -- it isn't all going to be great! ;)

[Orlando Eric]

"You would just lose it anyway.."

Yeah but I'd look cool with my custom forged, hand polished 8" blade with Mother of Pearl handle. The pommel made from Brass in figure of a miniature hard hat diver helmet. It could even have a built in depth gauge. Oh man I'd have to by one...

Eric

[wunat]

I use a ground down Victorinox kitchen knife...it will outcut any dive knife I've ever seen.


Kitchen knifes here too. I just bought a few 2 for about 1.20 USD (not Victorinox in this case) and have the sharp ends cut off. Made the sheath from 2" weight belt material that are left over from my harness webbing. Each knife+sheath costs me more less about a dollar. :11: Always have 2 or 3 of them on my dive trip so I don't have to worry about losing a knife on my dives. They are not inferior to the stainless steel dive knife I started off with which costs about 40 USD. :D

I know someone who lost his titanium dive knife on one of the trip. You should be able to imagine what he has to say. ;)

[Jim Lapenta]

I've got two primary knives. My large one is a 420 SS U.S.A. steel Blue Tang by Underwater Kinetics. Blunt tip w/saw back and line cutter. I think I paid 59 bucks for it at my lds. A little high I agree but it's a quality blade And I like it. The second is a gerber Chameleon that I got at Wal Mart for 23 bucks. It's a folder and the sheath fits perfectly on my inflator hose velcro. Delrin handle with a LARGE hole that finger or thumb can fit in even with gloves.1/2 of the blade is serrated and its a great knife. I used to be a buck fan until they wussed the 110 by rounding the corners. Been partial to gerbers and kershaws ever since. My sunday/go to meeting knife is a kershaw. I was a butcher for over 20 yrs so putting an edge on is not a problem. I usually use a single bevel similar to a samurai blade. Much stronger and easier to touch up. Comes in handy with my katana since it's a 43 inch blade. Would love to have a Randal but I use my knives too much. If I'm afraid of using or losing it it's of no use to me. Try looking for a uk before you buy. You may like it and find it at a decent price. BTW I got one of those shiny wenokas for my son from a guy who was giving up diving, I am not impressed with it.

[ZzzKing]

In the 80s a company named Wenoka helped move the dive knife price from around $20 to way over $60. They were fine knives, but they created an artificially high price for that good old $20-30 tool.


Ray

That's funny, I just bought a titanium knife from Wenoka for US29. Looks good but not sure of the sheath quality or how it will hold up until I abuse it some. Good, sharp edge for a new knife, though. You usually have to touch-up a new knife with a stone to really get it sharp.

[ZzzKing]

"You would just lose it anyway.."

Yeah but I'd look cool with my custom forged, hand polished 8" blade with Mother of Pearl handle. The pommel made from Brass in figure of a miniature hard hat diver helmet. It could even have a built in depth gauge. Oh man I'd have to by one...

Eric

Where do you dive? I want to go in after you and look for it on the bottom. Hehehe :e18:

[Blox]

10 meters (32.8 feet)/30yards (90 feet). ??? Your dad threw the taiwanese knife 32.8 feet and you threw the German number 90 feet? Excellent.

Hmm..Well this has given me something to think about since I'm always having to throw my dive knife 100 odd feet and embed it into a tree. It's an awesome way to practice the skill set needed in an underwater recreational diving/combat situation... :confused:

LOL

[Mr. X]

10 meters (32.8 feet)/30yards (90 feet). ??? Your dad threw the taiwanese knife 32.8 feet and you threw the German number 90 feet? Excellent.

Hmm..Well this has given me something to think about since I'm always having to throw my dive knife 100 odd feet and embed it into a tree. It's an awesome way to practice the skill set needed in an underwater recreational diving/combat situation... :confused:
Obviously don't watch enough James Bond films. You probably think spearguns are for fishing! ;) :D

[Mr. X]

Obviously don't watch enough James Bond films. You probably think spearguns are for fishing! ;) :D Just got my new knife set up together -- will let you know how I get on. It consists of a flat stainless Steel "Stingray Professional Divers Knife" (an economy level Taiwanese knife, shipped via the USA I believe, http://www.extremeoutdoorgear.com/) and a Rob Allen Limpet sheath (total price about 12 pounds ~= $20). This is a very low profile combination --very desirable when freediving, snorkelling & spearfishing in weed/kelp forests.

Pros:
- low profile (less catching, hydro-dynamic, stable, barely noticeable on -- for oneself & others)
- central point of knife is good design for ichi-spike use when spearfishing
- one straight edge, one serrated, both sharp
- shiney (usually corrode less).
- excellent calf fit, inside or outside
- elastic bands make loosing the sheath impossible
- sheath hold the knife very well, right up to near the end of the handle

Cons:
- Flat metal handles are sub-optimal for comfort & general appeal (but optimal for unobtrusive carrying).
- knife handle feels a little short to me (common on this type of knife I think)
- sheath has larger band at top -- so not really suitable for arm mount (surprisingly) & no good for thigh mount if you have legs like mine (prob. ok for Kate Moss though!).
- was hard to get knife in & even more to get it out of sheath (possibly due to newness of sheath, but I have sorted that out... see below.
- knife was hard to sheath & unsheath without the remedies described below (which completely solve this issue).

I have already modded the setup as follows:

1. Added 1" lanyard with a small wooden toggle (similar to plastic toggle used by Rob Allen assegai knife) -- makes removing knife simple.

2. Added a springy lanyard, about a yard or so long when stretched, from sheath to knife butt. Tried strimmer cord but it was much to big, so made the spiral lanyard from 35lb fishing lines (boiled then chilled around a hazel stick) -- very small and unobtrusive. A little stronger/thicker line might be better (e.g. 50-100lb?).

3. The sheath is black, so I added reflective tape to the front and back & a little white paint -- just in case it is dropped on land or from a boat (it is unlikely to become detached during normal use.

4. Coated knife with thin layer of cooking oil (best to avoid mineral oil in your fish). This makes sheathing & unsheathing the knife much easier & the knife is still very secure.

[Spoon]

taiwain knives are just as good, not worth spending a ton on a dive knife unless you like showing off

[MikeFerrara]

My local dive shop sells only knives from Italy & Germany because they say the taiwanese & chinese ones just dont have the same quality. Ive seen both kinds and the price differences are substantial.

Are the European blades worth the difference, or should I go with the Asian ones?

I would ask the shop how they define quality. The specific characteristics you look for in a knife depend on it's intended use. some need to be very sharp, some need to be tough for chopping or prying ect and in some cases it's stain resistance. Handle and sheath construction will of course also effect durability and utility.

I make knives and I test cutting ability, how well the blade holds an edge and toughness. By toughness I mean it's resistance to breaking. Generally speaking a tougher steel is softer steel. And yes the toughness test I sometimes do is a destructive test so once it's done the blade is gone. Those attributes are controlled by the steel used and the way the blade is heat treated (hardened and tempored). Blade geometry will also have a huge effect on hoew the knife cuts. There again, there are tradeoffs between cutting ability and strength.

I don't work with "stainless" so I can't say much about the advantages of the different alloys.

For dive knives I use whatever is cheap and looks like it'll work (like little kitchen knives) but I'm not using them for prying.