Bp/w, they all seem similar, what's the difference?

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davidwolfe2

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I have been shopping around and I was interested in the Halcyon system, maybe because it is so main stream and their systems and accessories seemed very versatile, but after the "Halcyon, is it worth the price?" thread, its got me thinking. I am now looking at Deep Sea Supply, OxyCheq, and still a Halcyon. i was wondering if any one had any technical reasons why one may be better than another rather than the typical "I have been diving it for 2 years with no problem" comments. Which has the thickest bladder, thickest material.... I currently dive an OMS IQ pack for recreational diving but I am starting to collect gear for tech diving, already have drysuit, and an HP130(only need 1 more), so i would like to start diving with a back plate setup as soon as possible. I live in SoCal right now but i will be moving back to ohio and predominantly wreck diving the great lakes so i usually will be diving cold water at 120+ ffw. thanks for all the input ahead of time.
 
David,

There are many fine choices in BP&W available today. There are very few I would avoid.

All BP&W's are similar. There is much greater difference between any BP&W and a typical Jacket BC, then there is between different makes of BP&W.

Having said that there are differences in plates and wings.

All plates are not the same.

They can differ in:

Material, i.e. Stainless Steel, Aluminum, or Hybrid

Choice of sizes

Finish

Overall shape

Over all bend angle

Depth and width of the center channel

Location and number of Holes in the center channel (used to secure doubles or STA's if used.

Camband slots may or may not be present.

Available accessories, weight plates, plate pads etc. These tend to be brand specific.


Wings can differ in:

Shell material

Bladder material

Shape

Capacity

Ease of draining

Full Circle or Horseshoe

Length of corrugated Hose / Type of power inflator

STA; Does the wing need a STA, or permit the use of a STA, or does not require a STA?

Ease of use. Set up and Tear down.


If you would like a recommendation as to which DSS combination I would suggest for your application let me know.

Tobin
 
i am aware of the different options but what makes DSS better than halcyon, is the shape of the bladder newer?, i know that they dont need a STA but how does that equate in terms of loosing some steel weight on your back, is that better than a weighted STA, i know that DSS is cheaper than halcyon which i like but i guess im looking for a bit of a heads up comparison by people that have tried more than one? i can demo a halcyon but im not sure if i can rent an oxycheq or a DSS in my area...still have to look into it
 
i am aware of the different options but what makes DSS better than halcyon, is the shape of the bladder newer?, i know that they dont need a STA but how does that equate in terms of loosing some steel weight on your back, is that better than a weighted STA, i know that DSS is cheaper than halcyon which i like but i guess im looking for a bit of a heads up comparison by people that have tried more than one? i can demo a halcyon but im not sure if i can rent an oxycheq or a DSS in my area...still have to look into it

You have asked a couple different questions.

First STA's What are the pro's and con's of STA's?

Cons:

Adds cost.

Spaces the cylinder further from the divers back.

Limits the range of vertical adjustment of the cylinder relative to the back plate. Many STA's have the camband slots at the extreme ends of the STA. That places the upper camband at or near the top of the plate.

Encourages divers to leave STA and wing Bolted to the Back plate. Transporting and cleaning a BP&W assembled greatly increases the chances of damaging the wing by dropping the Backplate onto the wing edgewise.

Pros:

In theory a STA increases stability of the tank. While a STA will improve stability over a poorly designed "direct mount" system, a STA will not increase stability over a well designed direct mount system.

In theory the use of a STA permits quick and easy conversion from single tank tank diving to doubles. In practice very few divers will frequently switch from singles to doubles. Very few divers will take on a single dive trip the wings, and tanks, and regulator sets, and weighting necessary to use either singles or doubles. Most divers who frequently use both singles and doubles will have two back plates.

Neutrals:

STA's add ballast. This may or may not be benefit depending on the application. Weighted STA's usually result in the greatest increase in offset of the tank from the divers back.

Wings:

The single most important thing in wing selection is matching the capacity to your application. All other things being equal, larger wings will be harder to vent and will offer more drag. DSS offers a range of singles wings. This allows a close match to your application.

All DSS singles wings have always featured very narrow center panel design, reliable wobble free direct mounting, and true 1050 ballistic nylon shell materials. Bladders are available in either 12 mil (.012") or 22 mil (.022") urethane film.

Wings are almost always damaged via "pinch flats" Look here https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?page=video
Scroll down the last video in the list.

Actual sharp object penetration of the outer shell is almost unknown. Divers simply cannot move fast enough under water to succeed in driving a "spine" through a wing shell or slicing it on a a sharp edge.

All combinations of bladder materials and shell materials are subject to pinch flats. Some offer more protection, but all are vulnerable. The best way to limit this type of damage is to keep the wing away from the plate whenever possible.

DSS wings can be quickly and easily mounted and demounted from the plate. That limits the exposure to pinch flats.

Look here https://www.deepseasupply.com/images/dssinstall.mov
and here
https://www.deepseasupply.com/images/dssremoval.mov


If you have other questions let me know.

Tobin
 
I don't think that you are going to get Tobin to step up and tell you that his stuff is better because,,,, might be a bad move for him. If you want to PM him and ask questions or give him a call, I am sure that he will spend plenty of time with you. When people talk DSS, they always talk service, so try it and see if you like service.

Now as far as the BP and wings. There are discussions all over on the merits of donuts and horseshoes. Everybody has a favorite. You might have to make a choice. Each of the web sites has a technical description of the wing construction and the lift, again, you might have to make a choice. Then try where is the inflation hose ? Top or off center, read on and make a choice. You will have to decide which is best.

You talk doubles, so the discussion on the STA doesn't matter and the addition of weight plates doesn't matter. Do you want to dive singles also ? Then the discussion on the STA comes back, changing back and forth ? Will you dive dry ? I need to carry 30lb's, weight plates are good for me, so is a STA. Maybe you need to go with the guy that has weight plates. I found at least six different versions of STA's, I had to make a choice.

For an example, lets use Dive Rite, you didn't mention them so I'll use them. Say some one gives you a Dive Rite SS plate and you use it to dive doubles. You may never have a problem. But if the plate doesn't have any cam band slots, and you have to use a STA for singles, you might think that is a problem. If you want to dive naked in warm water, you might wish it were aluminum or ABS or Kydex. Gee, I guess you have to make another decession.

I have gone thru all of this and had to make lots of decissions on what is best for me. If I had a job I would just buy some stuff and if it didn't work replace some stuff. Instead I evaluated the options and made some choices.

I have laid three SS plates side by side, the biggest difference is $, $$, $$$ , and the cam band slots. Find the points that are important to you.

In the end, I merged four different product lines. Not the cheapest way to go, but in the end it will be my responsibility.

adios don O
 
Whats the difference between wine-in-a-box and a bottle of Opus? I mean, they're all wine, right?

As a wine afficianado will tell you, there's lots of difference, that you can taste and smell instantly as you gain knowledge.

Back plates and wings are just like wines. There's distinct differences that don't mean much when you first learn about them, and the more you use them, the more important the differences become. What you want depends on how you dive.

Tobin's too nice of a guy to pat himself on the back, so I'll do it for him: his plates and wings are works of art, with forethought in the design that you don't realize you need until about a year after you bought it!


All the best, James
 
ok well i have done some research and like the DSS systems but my only worry is that there arent any dealers near ohio when i move back??? there are lots of halcyon and oxycheq dealers. is DSS a newer company so their not so wide spread as all the others or what is the deal? Thanks for all the input guys im going to try a DSS setup this weekend, will let everyone know how it goes.
 
You will get better service direct from DSS than you would get at the average dive store, by a large margin. Even better, you will probably never need it.

The most common reaction I get from boat captains in NC about my DSS rig is 'we're starting to see a lot of those on the boat.' The products are catching on, for good reason.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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