Referral student issued Cert card by diff agency

[Mark Stanley]

I have run into this several times now and I am not sure how big of an issue it is. I have now had several students referr out for their open water certification. The referring shops have issued the students PADI C cards. Before sending the students I go over the paper work and remind them to being back the completed paperwork so I can order their C cards. The latest incident the student sees no need to come in since they already have their C card. It bothers me that A) the referring shops are issuing C cards and b) it really bugs me when it is not the same agency issuing the cards. Is there any recourse to this? or Is this something I should just let go and move on?

[Walter]

You should contact the instructor to whom you are referring students and come to an agreement prior to referring anyone. The referral is between you and another instructor. Don't give the paperwork to a student and send them off on their own.

The practice you describe is common and unethical.

[SteveAD]

By PADI standards the certifying instructor is the instructor who does open water dive #4. The "universal referral" concept that allows some instructors to accept referrals from other agencies (with different standards) is sure to cause confusion and imo is a bad idea.

[Walter]

By PADI standards the certifying instructor is the instructor who does open water dive #4. The "universal referral" concept that allows some instructors to accept referrals from other agencies (with different standards) is sure to cause confusion and imo is a bad idea.

Since PADI does not participate in Universal referral, I don't know why you are bringing up PADI standards, but since you did...........

By PADI standards, the certifying instructor must insure that all PADI requirements are met. If they are accepting a referral from another agency, those requirements are not met. Certifying the student instead of returning the paper work to the referring instructor is not only unethical and a breach of contract, but a violation of PADI standards.

[SteveAD]

Since PADI does not participate in Universal referral, I don't know why you are bringing up PADI standards, but since you did...........

By PADI standards, the certifying instructor must insure that all PADI requirements are met. If they are accepting a referral from another agency, those requirements are not met. Certifying the student instead of returning the paper work to the referring instructor is not only unethical and a breach of contract, but a violation of PADI standards.


I brought it up because the OP said the students were issued PADI C cards. Ok, obviously the recieving instructor is doing more than one thing wrong.

[Lead_carrier]

It is my understanding that PADI instructors can accept Universal Referrals but cannot issue one. They still might be required to issue a PADI cert anyway. Gotta keep those numbers rolling.

[Walter]

It is my understanding that PADI instructors can accept Universal Referrals but cannot issue one.

Close. No instructor can accept Universal Referrals unless they are a Universal Referral Instructor. Universal Referral Instructors can be from any agency, including PADI. PADI allows their instructors to participate, but does not encourage them to do so. When a PADI instructor issues a referral, it must be to a PADI instructor.

They still might be required to issue a PADI cert anyway. Gotta keep those numbers rolling.

There is no such requirement by PADI for their instructors to participate in Universal Referral. In order to issue a PADI cert, they have to make sure all PADI requirements are met. That will include classroom and pool work in which the student might not wish to participate.

[wreckchick]

This horse has already been beaten on the board, but a PADI instructor CAN accept referrals from other agencies and issue a PADI c-card. The student is expected to take an exam and demonstrate the pool skills. They are not required to be re-taught the confined water element if they can prove proficiency. The students, at my shop, are made aware of the change in agency and accept the difference. A PADI instructor's signature is not accepted by UR as a certifying instructor with the exception of SDI who will allow a PADI instructor to sign off on the paperwork.

Rachel

[Swampdonkey]

It seems more like a pissing match, in my opinion.

I mean a padi dive shop issue'ing a c-card with little regard to who actually taught these people who are refering them. To Wreck chick, it isn't you right to make a student to choose to accept the difference in train agencies. It is the store job to make sure that the student is good enough to be a diver and send that paper work back.

Why can't all these agencies quit this pissing match and for one just realize that people diving is the goal. No more stealing students and issues c-cards that clearly should be issued by the instructor who taught the most.

In the end, might as well beat my head against a wall on this one as padi people will say one thing and everyone else will say another thing.

[DiveSite]

From the Universal Referral website (http://www.universalreferral.com/).....

News Release: PADI Instructors Can Accept Universal Referral Form
May 2003 - Universal Referral Program makes Referral Training “Customer Friendly”

The Universal Referral Program (URP) is a customer-oriented program designed to facilitate completion of open water training for students who travel for their training dives. According to a recent Professional Association of Diving Instructors (PADI) Training Bulletin, PADI instructors can now accept Universal Referral Program students.

The member organizations of the Universal Referral Program would like to extend their sincere appreciation to PADI, and to encourage all PADI instructors to take advantage of the new policy.

In a Training Bulletin issued second quarter of 2003, the Professional Association of Diving Instructors announced that PADI instructors "…complete the open water dives as outlined in the Universal guidelines and send the diver back to the original instructor for certification." PADI instructors now have the option of completing referrals for students possessing Universal Referral paperwork. According to PADI, members can look on the Member website for complete details or contact an educational consultant for additional information. The bulletin further stated that PADI insurance offered through Vicencia and Buckley covers the receiving PADI instructor for Universal Referral open water training.

"Referrals are a huge segment of the recreational diving business," said Gary Clark, director of marketing for SSI. "Making referrals seamless to the public will be great for divers, retailers, resorts and instructors. It should help resorts in particular, because they can provide great service to all referral customers, which is important in this tough travel market."

Jim Bram, President of NAUI Worldwide, added, "The Universal Referral Program helps everyone. Students appreciate having an easy to use program, dive centers and resorts gain new business, and instructors expand their training opportunities. We’re happy to see PADI instructors can now participate in this diving industry program."

The Universal Referral Program was founded in 1998 by IDEA, NASDS, NAUI, PDIC, SSI and YMCA. The URP established referral paperwork, procedures and a minimum list of agreed upon skills to be performed. A team of experienced educators, risk managers and attorneys developed the program, based on industry training standards. URP enrollment procedures and instructor qualifications are outlined in the URP program and managed by each respective training agency.

For information about the Universal Referral Program, please visit Universal Referral Program (http://www.UniversalReferral.com), or contact any member agency.

[wreckchick]

It seems more like a pissing match, in my opinion.

I mean a padi dive shop issue'ing a c-card with little regard to who actually taught these people who are refering them. To Wreck chick, it isn't you right to make a student to choose to accept the difference in train agencies. It is the store job to make sure that the student is good enough to be a diver and send that paper work back.

Why can't all these agencies quit this pissing match and for one just realize that people diving is the goal. No more stealing students and issues c-cards that clearly should be issued by the instructor who taught the most.

In the end, might as well beat my head against a wall on this one as padi people will say one thing and everyone else will say another thing.

A couple things, first, it's not me that makes the student do their dives with me or my shop, that's the student's decision. Second, the training agency I teach for is the one who tells me what I can and cannot do with regard to non-PADI referrals and their stance is clearly outlined in my instructor manual. Third, my shop does not in any way tell me who I should or should not certify, that decision is mine and mine alone. The shop signs nothing. It is my signature and my liability from start to finish. The only time that the shop would be held liable for negligence if if they knew I wasn't performing to standards and made no effort to stop me or encouraged me to continue practices that blatantly broke standards. Lastly, it's not "PADI people" that say anything. I am following standards that are handed down from PADI proper. I don't make these decisions, I am informing the less informed what I am bound by based on my training agencies decisions.

As far as the UR program, it is up to the referring instructor to set up the OW dives with an instructor. That part is clearly outlined in the program. If a student chooses to seek an instructor on their own or if the referring instructor fails to establish a relationship with an instructor that will be receiving the student, that is breaking standards of the URP.

R

[Mark Stanley]

Thank you for all the information. In the future I will be more involved with communicating with the referring shop . The goal is to get people into diving and the last thing I want is to the student in any kind of agency wars.

[Swampdonkey]

The goal is to get people into diving and the last thing I want is to the student in any kind of agency wars.

The most important thing

[Swampdonkey]

A couple things, first, it's not me that makes the student do their dives with me or my shop, that's the student's decision. Second, the training agency I teach for is the one who tells me what I can and cannot do with regard to non-PADI referrals and their stance is clearly outlined in my instructor manual. Third, my shop does not in any way tell me who I should or should not certify, that decision is mine and mine alone. The shop signs nothing. It is my signature and my liability from start to finish. The only time that the shop would be held liable for negligence if if they knew I wasn't performing to standards and made no effort to stop me or encouraged me to continue practices that blatantly broke standards. Lastly, it's not "PADI people" that say anything. I am following standards that are handed down from PADI proper. I don't make these decisions, I am informing the less informed what I am bound by based on my training agencies decisions.

As far as the UR program, it is up to the referring instructor to set up the OW dives with an instructor. That part is clearly outlined in the program. If a student chooses to seek an instructor on their own or if the referring instructor fails to establish a relationship with an instructor that will be receiving the student, that is breaking standards of the URP.

R


So the shop you work for doesn't provide any liability coverage? Wow!

As for you above comment. That is the number one problem in this industry, to many people not communicating. Your comment, as I am reading it, seems very defensive to a common problem for a lot of dive shops who do send universal referals down to vacation areas.

Oh well, **** happens and people still need to get people out diving!

Cheers

[Charlie99]

A basic question that seems to be ignored is "WHO IS DECIDING THAT THE DIVER HAS THE SKILLS NEEDED TO BE CERTIFIED?"

To me, it seems that the instructor that did the final OW checkout is that person. Furthermore, it seems pretty clear that instructor doing the OW dives and final checkout is going to be doing it per HIS certifying agency rather than trying to guess as to what the standards are for some other agency.

Put all of that together, it is isn't shocking that a universal referral student that completes his certification with a PADI instructor gets a PADI cert card.

[Walter]

Charlie,

If you are not a Universal Referral Instructor, you simply do not accept Universal Referrals. It's pretty simple. By accepting a Universal Referral, you've agreed to play by Universal Referral rules. If you strongly disagree with their rules, don't accept the referrals. It's not ethical to accept the referrals and then play by your own rules.

BTW, I disagree with your basic concept that, the instructor that did the final OW checkout is the person who should decide if the student should be certified.

[Charlie99]

BTW, I disagree with your basic concept that, the instructor that did the final OW checkout is the person who should decide if the student should be certified.Why??

[Walter]

Because an instructor who has made one dive with a student will not likely have tested the student on all required skills. I believe we will agree that an instructor who completes all course work with a student will have a much better idea about that student's abilities than one who only conducts a small portion of the course work. With a referral, the instructors must work together to make the determination. It is a joint evaluation.

[scubadork]

Thank goodness I am not an instructor! Too much politics and infighting and not enough fun!

[SteveAD]

[QUOTE=Walter;3540121] I believe we will agree that an instructor who completes all course work with a student will have a much better idea about that student's abilities than one who only conducts a small portion of the course work. QUOTE]

I strongly disagree with this thought. I have seen many students who had no problems in the pool, yet turned into complete basket cases upon hitting the ocean.

The instructor who completes the coursework/pool work states that the student is ready to be evaluated. The evaluator gives the go/no-go.

[Walter]

I strongly disagree with this thought. I have seen many students who had no problems in the pool, yet turned into complete basket cases upon hitting the ocean.

You honestly believe that an instructor who makes dive #4 and only dive #4 with a student will have a better idea of that student's abilities than one who had them in the classroom for the entire class, had them in the pool for all pool work and took them on all their check out dives? Why?

[TravisD]

You honestly believe that an instructor who makes dive #4 and only dive #4 with a student will have a better idea of that student's abilities than one who had them in the classroom for the entire class, had them in the pool for all pool work and took them on all their check out dives? Why?

Not really saying that this is right or wrong, but this is exactly what any normal "auditing" arrangement does. When the Auditors come in twice a year to see if we're meeting the requirements for whatever standard we're expected to meet, they're basically looking at whatever evidence exists at that moment to prove that we're doing what's supposed to be done. Some audits are point in time -- are we performing up to standard at this moment. Some are looking at evidence of performance over time.

I can see it both ways -- an evaluator who has been with the student over time will now what the weakpoints are to look for, but also may be too close to the problem to see what's really happening, or likely to give them a pass based on potential, not performance.

On the other hand, an independent evaluator comes in looking at the situation with a fresh perspective, but may pass (or fail) someone based on a one-day performance that is not indicative of their normal behavior.

Thinking about it longer, I actually sort of think that requiring sign-off by another instructor/evaluator would be a GOOD thing for the industry, since it might promote some actual consistency in the standards and keep the instructors honest.

[perdidochas]

You honestly believe that an instructor who makes dive #4 and only dive #4 with a student will have a better idea of that student's abilities than one who had them in the classroom for the entire class, had them in the pool for all pool work and took them on all their check out dives? Why?

I would say the safe thing is that it should require both instructors to agree to issue a C-Card, while it should only take one of the two instructors to fail them.

If a student fails the OW section, they shouldn't get a C-card. If a student has not passed the rest, they shouldn't get the OW referral.

[algulfdiver]

Why don't the original instructor file for the card when the student finishes there pool? then they can give it to them when they get back from where ever they do there check out dives. If they don't pass don't give it to them.