Ok Dudes and Dudettes...DIR-F

[Aquabella]

Has anyone taken this class? What's the local thinking on their ideas? I see they do have an instructor located in Ontario. Anybody?:confused:

[WreckWriter]

Aquabella once bubbled...
Has anyone taken this class? What's the local thinking on their ideas? I see they do have an instructor located in Ontario. Anybody?:confused:

More like everyone! Do a search, there's been literally hundreds of postings on this. General bottom line, all who have taken it agree that its a great course.

WW

[Aquabella]

should've thought of that. I just kind of wanted to know if any Canadiens had. I guess I'll have to go look...pick em out...dope de doe...:fsticks:

[ericfine50]

Dan Mackey in Kingston, ON

Eric

[GTADiver]

OK I am in a troll mood and its been awfully quiete lately.....

DIR is just hype. Find an "old school" instructor and ask them to teach you what has been taken out of the old basic courses in order to make them more entry level. There is nothing new in DIR just divers being taught stuff that used to be taught to every diver.

Its like peak buoyancy performance courses.....should your instructor not have taught you buoyancy on your open water course.

There is NO substitute for experience.

Signed
GTADiver,
Dinosaur Diver

(hey I should change my logon to Dinosuar diver and then I could have an AVATAR, mmmm)

[GTADiver]

Does their video not say that a piece of dive gear every diver should have is a body bag? Having used a body bag while diving, let me tell you it is not an easy skill.

[Cave Diver]

Aquabella once bubbled...
Has anyone taken this class? What's the local thinking on their ideas? I see they do have an instructor located in Ontario. Anybody?:confused:

Here ya go: DIRF Class Reports (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22200)

[wetman]

My buddy and I took it last september from Dan at Northern Tech Diver in Kingston.

It was well worth the weekend and the money.

And as far as beying just hype, that may have been relevant when "old school" was new school, but the the current crop of divers that come out of courses can clearly benefit from these back to basics skills that there isn't enough time to teach in the courses these days. And i say "may have been relevant" because i truly believe a lot of old schoolers can certainly benefit as well because i've seen some that absolutely suck in the water.

Take it, you won't regret it.

steve

[Aquabella]

I'm not as dopey as I look:rolleyes:

It wasn't really a general " have you ever heard of dis DI...I think it's R ...course before?"

I just wanted to hear from some peeps from around here...what'd they think? Did they go and see Dan up in Kingston? Dang, Gilboa is just as close for me. Are dive credentials the same internationally?

I did a search too. Groundhog started a thread back in Dec. called 'DIR in the Great White North' (I would drag it up here but I haven't figured out how to yet)

Groundhog dude, where'd you get too?

[Jimmy B]

Like everyone saying anyone who wants to learn, be better, kill a bad habit is taking this course. Dan Mackay runs one in Kingston, you will learn something. GTA Diver is telling you something DIR is not new it's what you should have been taught in the first place.

When I took mine, I had a two techies, a NAUI instructor with a lot of dives and a couple of just plain old fashion divers and everyone agreed they learned something.

The only DIR shop in Canada is www.northerntechdiver.com give them a call or visit them. It is really worth it.

JB

[Aquabella]

Ahhhhh...Steve...thank-you.:)

[Chet]

What is being taught by DIR is the same as most of the tech instructors in Ontario. GUE just packages it with names and videos. The underlying point of all these tech courses are the same it does not matter who it is --- be safe!!!!!!! and I believe thats what these instructors and the courses and the agencies are trying to accomplish.
Do not limit your inquires for an instructor or an agency to one, look at as many as possible. DIR has some great points, as do all the rest. The instructor teach DIR in Ontario is good as are the ones teaching the other programs.


BE SAFE!!!!!
Chet

[Jimmy B]

Chet once bubbled...
What is being taught by DIR is the same as most of the tech instructors in Ontario. GUE just packages it with names and videos. The underlying point of all these tech courses are the same it does not matter who it is --- be safe!!!!!!! and I believe thats what these instructors and the courses and the agencies are trying to accomplish.
Do not limit your inquires for an instructor or an agency to one, look at as many as possible. DIR has some great points, as do all the rest. The instructor teach DIR in Ontario is good as are the ones teaching the other programs.


BE SAFE!!!!!
Chet

DIRF is not a techie course it's skills course, most people do it in the gear that they presently dive in.

JB

[GTADiver]

There are a lot of good instructors still teaching the basic safety skills that have been labeled DIR. Most of them teach for clubs rather than stores. Clubs are not in it to make money but are in it to get new competent divers. They can afford to take the extra time. Some clubs I know of are still teaching a 12 week open water course with two hours of pool and two hours of class room per week!

I am not trying to say anything negative about any store all I am saying is there are a lot of excellent scuba clubs in Ontario without store affiliation and having excellent instructors.

[Tom R]

It would be great to have everyone taught to a standard.

DIRF Details and schedules at http://northerntechdiver.com/training/trgintro.php

Tom R

[Groundhog246]

Aquabella once bubbled...
Groundhog dude, where'd you get too?
I'm just hanging around here in the cold, with the occasional excursion to a pool. If you're suffering withdrawal, I think there's a club in London that offers some pool time. I belong to OUE in Etobicoke and can get a temp fix on Thu eve's.

But I'm off topic again. I'm still debating on the DIR thing. I think the skills are useful and find the 7 foot hose idea intriguing. I would however, like a chance to see the set up in person and a short in person discussion, before signing up for the full course.
Will probably do rescue first. I'm kinda holding back on courses for now, waiting for my dive buddy (wife) who's just OW to catch up. Her dive season got cut short last year with a problem tooth that took the dentist forever to deal with ("fixed" the wrong tooth the first time around). She hopes to "hog" which is 50 dives in your first year and she's at 16. So needs 34 dives by Mid August. Wish we could afford to go South.

[Aquabella]

That's neat that both of you are so into diving! That must've been some trip to the dentist second time around. The dummy:D

Well...let the journey continue!:auto:

[ScubaScott]

I''ve been in contact with Dan at NorthernTech diver and inquired about the DIR-F before he had a calendar up. I see the calendars up and that he's running a course at least once a month......

I've been hearing, reading,learning and listening about DIR for almost 2 years now, and I'm finally going to take the plunge. I'm looking at perhaps the May or July course. A felow Scubaboarder who I thought was a pretty good diver - learned so much from his class...... it just comes through in his enthusiasm...... to learn and be better, and keep learning and getting better......

Yep, I'll take the leap.....

SS

[wetman]

I would suggest if you do take this, take a look at the videos on the fifthd site and at least practice some of the things so that you can at least go in with some knowledge of what you're wanting to accomplish. So for example, if you tend to hold the line for your accents, spend a couple months before the course practicing without that (if theres no current obviously) (or better yet, go to cozumel and be forced to do it that way because there is no upline down there :) and have a great little vacation all in the name of research ). Focus on hovering at your 15 foot mark as much as possible with as little variation as possible. Try to clean your gear configuration ahead of time - read the DIRF book as to where to start with that and if you dont see it there and its hanging off your BC, get rid of it.

Its not hard to find the info, just look into it and try to achieve the goals and then get them perfected in the class but realize you likely wont so go in with an open mind and be willing to practice lots after as well.

We're taking the tech 1 course this august hopefully and we're quite thankful we have the time in between to practice the skills ahead of time.

steve

[seahunter]

I hate to get into these discusssions but I can't let misconceptions go by, particularly when they're fed by partisan divers.
I, more than most, appreciate loyal students and customers (see Poll: Your Favorite Toronto Dive Shop on this forum) but regardless of your affections, it's a serious mistake to promote an idea without checking to ensure it's accurate first.

I've been teaching scuba divers since 1969 and the changes in the training methods have been amazing and for the most part beneficial to the sport. Contrary to the impression created by some on this thread, scuba diving is safer now than it was in the 'good ol' days'! Check any stats from any agency you like and see it's true.

The idea that courses today are not as good and leave out a lot of good stuff is also wrong. First, the two concepts are at odds - that is, if stats prove scuba is safer now, it follows that the courses are better. Second there is no 'good stuff' left out. There is a lot of extraneous stuff left out. New divers have not heard "Boyle's Law" for years and there's no loss there. Of what benefit is it to learn that a guy by the name of Robert Boyle over 300 years ago discovered a physical relationship between pressure and volume? Learning that information simply confuses and confounds. There is a limit to what anyone can absorb in a fixed time and a limit to what they will accept on a single idea. What's important for aspiring divers to learn is how to equalize properly and to breathe normally at all times. Those life saving ideas and skills are drilled into new divers today. Years ago we taught Boyle's Law and the divers had to memorize it and they also learned that was the law that forced them to equalize and would give them an embolism if they held their breath. But they were so wrapped up in learning Boyle's Law which was, of course presented before the practical application was, that they simply didn't grasp nor develop as a reflex skill the application of the law. They could repeat Boyle's Law but would often have to be reminded to equalize.

Most of the 'stuff' left out of modern scuba courses is similar. New divers today have no need to know the content of CGA acceptable breathing air nor the difference between upstream and downstream regulator valves.
I've already explained the danger in trying to teach all this stuff to a new diver - now you tell me the benefit. If you want to learn more take a Specialty in the area of your interest but new divers need to concentrate on developing solid basic reflex skills and good habits - that's all!! Knowing about different regulator designs adds nothing to their safety while diving and it's all academic anyway. They have no input on the designs and will hopefully buy their gear from a good store with knowledgeable, concerned staff.

As for the preaching about 'longer courses are better', sorry but that's a crock too.
A quick check of the dive store web site that is mentioned earlier in this post shows clearly that they use the PADI system to teach their new divers (thank God) which means that the divers get the most modern, proven scuba training available. It also means that they are taught (we're assuming the store uses the entire PADI teaching system as designed. Leaving out even one small component compromises that effectivesness.) the same information (no more and no less) than all other new divers. As far as the content of the course, they are all the same. Only the format (the way it's organized) is different. The most common course today which is two days of full time training in small groups with a lot of supervision gives MORE attention to the individual divers needs than does a prolonged course of 4, 5, 6, or 8 weeks. In fact, in the old prolonged course, the students get bored, forget the previous week's lessons and skills, have interruptions caused by unplanned emergencies, waste time between classroom and pool, waste time getting ready in class and taking attendance each class and in a dozen other ways. To state that a course is better because you wasted a lot more time in it (40 hours for example) is misleading at best. A modern course takes whatever time is required for each diver to learn the academics (easy with pre-class study, videos or DVD's and quizzes) and to develop the pool skills with no more than 4 new divers per instructor. No one and nothing is missed!

Sorry, but in my experience it is the club divers who are often the most sloppy having spent weeks and weeks learning outdated skills from a volunteer instructor who might teach 25 divers a year, hasn't likely been updated himself in 10 years and often doesn't have or use any modern teaching aids.
Only when you have a real investment in the results of your teaching (your livelihood, your business, your reputation, etc) will you dedicate the effort and expense required to make sure you're doing the very best job for the new divers.

Please don't tell me that some instructors or stores are better than others. That's obvious. I'm not attacking you or your instructor so don't take it personally. I am attacking the age old concept that taking forever to teach a new diver and telling him everything about scuba diving you know will make him a better diver.
Get him diving safely in controlled conditions and he'll want to learn more. But at least ensure his basic skills are clear and ingrained!

Before you assume (you know what that word means!) that I'm against learning everything you can about scuba diving or developing extra skills or taking extra courses or getting lots of experience, re-read this post. I've a big fan of extra courses. We have the highest rate of con-ed in Canada and offer on average two Specialty courses every week. Some are not even recognized specialties (Advanced Equipment, Vintage Diver, Advanced Navigation, etc).

I agree with GTA that experience is the #1 asset followed by additional training.
I definately disagree with GTA that a 12 week course is preferable to a modern program. There may be a 12 week course that's as good but I'd have to watch it to be convinced.
I agree with GTA that these new DIR, DIRF, GOOF courses contain no new material. It is all good, well-known information and skills that a certified diver could benefit from. Some was at one time in the basic course but was removed based on the principle I've described above. The information and skills is contained in any textbook more that 15 years old (The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving comes to mind!). You can learn the same info and skills in any series of PADI con-ed programs and concentrate on the areas of greatest interest to yourself. All these new terms for the old scuba stuff is simply marketing by a new scuba training agency. The terms are new - the info is not.

New divers are learning about the birds and the bees and you want to teach them about invitro fertilization!

[weight_for_me]

Seahunter....well said. When I took my OW a year ago, we had about an hour in classroom and a followed by a couple hours in the pool. All of the basics were taught and taught well. I had a great Instructor. He gave me the knowlege and skills not just to be safe in the water, but also to advance my training at my own speed. I spent most of last summer concentrating on buoyancy, trim and being aware of what was going on around me. Sure, I had some wreck dives with the club (100'+), but was always buddied up with an advanced diver who knew not just my skill level, but knew who I was taught by and therefore was very comfortable being in the water with me. DIR is a concept which I have read a lot about and find interesting...but I'll pass until I have more experience.
Randy...

[Aquabella]

I just wanted to clarify something, as the person who started this thread. My asking about DIR was not because I was dissatisfied with the training I have received. On the contrary I do know that my instuctor is top notch and very well respected. Extremely knowledgable and experienced going out of his way for each student in a totally selfless way.

Being relatively new to the diving world, this is the first I had heard of GUE. I wasn't sure whether these courses were taken in addition to PADI(or other). I actually was planning going in and talking to my instructor about it. I agree that experience is #1 and I know he will tell me the same.

I know your post isn't necessarily aimed at me but I don't want there to be any misconceptions about my LDS. I do appreciate your comments and I hear you points.:)

[taz22]

Well....since I read this post, I'll toss in my $0.02!

I took a 4 week OW water course when I first started Scuba Diving and then progressed at my own pace through the AOW and Rescue Diver course ( Padi of course). Now I'm taking the Divemaster course which expands your diving knowledge and gives you more understanding of diving physics and everything else that goes along with starting out as a Dive Professional, yada yada yada!

My best advice is to work with an instructor you trust to build your knowledge of diving. You might want to spend this diving season getting all the diving experience you can and then take the Divemaster Course come the fall. My local LDS teaches the DM course only once a year and it starts in November and ends in May. Lot's of reading and pool play time til the water softens up a bit.

Remember, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take!!!

Cheers, Taz!

[jrtonkin]

I have to disagree with most of what seahunter said.

Disclaimer first: He's got 30+ years of teaching experience. I don't quite have 30 years of life experience, so the odds are that he's more correct than I am.

That said, I do believe that there is good and usefull information left out of beginning courses. Stuff that you shouldn't need to "take a specialty course" to be taught, but that would be very usefull to know.

I also believe that, if well managed, a longer course can be better than an equally-well-managed short course... There's simply more time (and the well-managed part means that it's not wasted time) to go over material. Either more thoroughly, or if the student has mastered the material, to cover more broadly.

I'll be happy to argue specific ideas and examples at (probably great) length, but course format and content isin't really the topic of this thread... Seahunter, shall we agree to disagree, or start a new thread?

Jamie

[seahunter]

I'm a firm believer in learning and experiencing as much as possible. Hopefully as you do that, you'll pick up skills and ideas that will serve you well. Most of the newer certification agencies offer further and very specialized training for already certified divers and I say go for it if it appeals to you.

I suppose I just get annoyed by some divers who fall in love with their instructor and/or agency. If they were as loyal to their life partner as they are to their scuba instructor/store/agency, there'd be a heck of a lot less divorce going on. If any single instructor was the best around, I'd know about him (we all would)! If any single agency was the best, that would be the only one in existence (see Certification Agency Poll in the General Scuba diving Section under Basic Scuba Discussions).

Once you've got your basic course from a professional instructor working for a solid recognized training agency, open your eyes and look around. There are so many options avaialble now to divers that we never had 50 years ago it's quite amazing. It's equally amazing that so many refuse to take a course from any one other than their basic course instructor. I encourage our divers to take every course with a different instructor. Whether you like him or not, each has ideas and approaches that are different. You choose which you like and throw the rest away.

[Groundhog246]

jrtonkin once bubbled...
That said, I do believe that there is good and usefull information left out of beginning courses. Stuff that you shouldn't need to "take a specialty course" to be taught, but that would be very usefull to know.
Not sure how much is left out of which courses, as I've only taken the courses I've taken and haven't sat in on others. But, I dive regularly with a buddy who wasn't taught how to read the markings on a tank, or even the VIP sticker on a tank. She was just told that they required an annual visual and hydro every 5 years. Maybe it's considered "unnecessary" to know, but if you don't know how to read the stampings/label, thus don’t know the max pressure and capacity of a cylinder (without asking someone), etc, then you put yourself and others at risk. I was at my local LDS last summer when someone from Toronto, showed up with rental tanks from a Toronto store that had no current VIP labels and thus they refused to fill them. She apparently hadn't learned about (she did have a PADI OW C-card) as she had to be shown what a label looked like before she understood what was missing. Now they MAY have been inspected, and quite likely safe to use, but they went out the door of an LDS without proper labeling, in the custody of a diver who either wasn't taught or forgot (based on my buddy above, I'd guess the former).
BTW, I won't name the store, but I will state it was not S2K.

[canuckdiver]

the DIR-F course does teach a level of certain skills (like bouyancy, fin kicks, gear streamlining) that MOST other courses do not attain.

That being said, I feel that this is more a function of the instructor than than the certifying agency. There are quite a few VERY good instructors in ontario that are not GUE affiliated, and they would be just as viable as alternatives.

[seahunter]

The situation you describe Groundhog is the result of a new diver with a very limited memory or an instructor who shouldn't be.
Every diver is supposed to learn about tank inspection intervals and how to read them.
A sloppy or unethical instructor is a menace to us all whether he teaches a 2 day course or a prolonged 12 week course.

I will add that I see damn few divers whether new or experienced check the hydro date and/or visual sticker on rental tanks before they leave S2K with them. I suppose I should consider it a compliment that they trust us but it does make me shake my head occasionally. It places us in an awkward position - should we remind them to check the integrity of the tanks we just rented them?

JR, don't accept my years of teaching experience as necessarily making me more correct. It's just more likely that I've made a lot more mistakes than someone else. Hopefully I've learned from each one - ergo, I've learned more than another, newer instructor. I firmly believe that an instructor learns more about teaching scuba AFTER the IDC than during it - assuming of cousre that his head hasn't grown too big during the IDC.
In fact, we actually agree on most things. I clearly said that there's lots of good things a new diver should learn. I stated however that he doesn't need to learn them in the basic 'Learn to Scuba Dive' course. He should concentrate on developing instinctive, basic skills and gaining some experience in controlled
diving situations. Then he can learn all the other stuff that is interesting or useful. To crowd his mind with that "interesting and useful 'other' stuff" before he has learned basic concepts and developed basic skills is the mistake often made by well-meaning instructors. This is a simple and well-known educational methodology principle applied in dozens of other even more complex training programs like pilot training, law enforcement, racing, etc.
This is a favorite topic of discussion for me and very easy to defend. We can certainly open a new thread and perhaps should so others can share their ideas too. How about suggesting topics that you think ought to be in the new diver course and I'll either agree or debate why they shouldn't be there?

[Groundhog246]

seahunter once bubbled...
The situation you describe Groundhog is the result of a new diver with a very limited memory or an instructor who shouldn't be.
Every diver is supposed to learn about tank inspection intervals and how to read them.
A sloppy or unethical instructor is a menace to us all whether he teaches a 2 day course or a prolonged 12 week course.

Since I know what her job entails, I will rule out limited memory. And she can decribe in detail every dive we've done together, without once referring to her log book, something I can't do and she logged about 60 dives last year. If she says she wasn't taught, she wasn't. Sloppy instructor? Probably. But actually 2 different instructors at different shops. First go round she caught a cold and couldn't complete her OW certifying dives and the shop was unwilling to make arrangments to complete, sorry bout your luck. Shopped around and found another instructor who ran her through the class work, a pool checkout dive and her OW dives.

[seahunter]

"A sloppy or unethical instructor or dive store is a menace to us all.."

Besides the obvious inclusion of below standards teaching, I also consider any behavior by a member of the scuba industry that detracts from scuba diving or impairs a divers ability to grow in the sport as unethical behaviour as well.

Many divers who've faced similar challenges are referred to S2K. While not responsible for others actions, we apologize to those divers for their treatment by other members of the scuba industry and then set about making amends and getting them on their way to their goal in scuba.

[JimC]

I agree with many thing so far in this thread, but 2 things jumped out at me which I disagree with.

Short vs Long course.

OW means you and your buddy can go off and dive alone, in cold and dark waters. The basics are fine if all your doing is guided dives in easy water. But thats not what this course is, this course NEEDS to teach a student how to dive with a buddy off the dock at the cottage 100 miles from the nearest dive profesonal.

Assuming you have a good OW instructor who drills in the water skills and the importance of blindly following the rules your prepared well for an easy, shalow, good vis pre-packadged dive. Your not prepared to show up at a typical Ontario shore dive with a buddy, some dive tables and a rough idea of what to expect and have an enjoyable dive.

I had a great instructor. Both my wife and I were excelent students who picked up skills easily, praticed them on our own and had a very good grasp of the pysics, rules, whys and hows when our OW course ended. We were confident in our abilites, we preformed very well in OW checkouts, calm, relaxed.. everything a new diver should be.. but often is not.

Our first post OW dive in 10 foot vis, sandy bottom, 20 ffw, unguided dive was a nervous mess of poor boyancey, pathetic buddy skills and a general cluser f***.

It took me a good 20 dives to get to where I thought I was resonably competent. Another 3 untill our first 'wopse' and underwater problem to decide I had a heck of a lot of learning and training to do. Fortunatly we spent a FULL class on dive planing and we were in no danger, turned the dive, safely acended with gas to spare.

(Hothgarian plug)
The problem was a poor buddy check which missed an 1/2 opened valve, which caused what seemd to be gas loss at exactly the worst point in the dive.

BtW the long hose I donated definatly made the long LONG long swim back from stacked anchors and hulls while sharring air much more comfortable than a standard octo. I think if we had not have had the long hose we would have ended up surfacing way out from shore and likely would have ended up being rescued by the coast guard.


Diveing is safer now.

Yes it is, very much so. But saying that is because instruction is better is bad logic. There are a great multitude of factors which could all impact saftey, all of them without any good proof and range from more pre-packadged guided dives to more reliable gear.





My big 3:

Experince
Training
Planning

DIR-F is not about DIR or GUE. Its about training in basic skills which every single diver can benifit from being better at. The only non-rec requierment for the course is the long hose configuration. Something which has had more than enugh debate to try to justify here.

If you have the oportunity to take basic skills training, under a quality instructor, make ever effort to do so. DIR-F or not, your diveing will benifit dramaticaly.

[Tom R]

Jim,

Enjoying Florida?

Tom

[ScubaScott]

Well said JimC

SS

[seahunter]

Well said Jim C ... but contradictory!

You claim to have had a good instructor yet you went on a first post-cert dive which was beyond your capabilities AND apparently didn't even realize it!

I like your statement "Assuming you have a good OW instructor who drills in the water skills and the importance of blindly following the rules your prepared well for an easy, shalow, good vis pre-packadged dive. " because that's exactly what the Open Water course is for.
Perhaps that's the problem - too many think that the O/W course is supposed to make experienced divers! Two days or 12 weeks is inmaterial - the graduate is NOT prepared to "... go off and dive alone, in cold and dark waters." nor is he supposed to be.
The content of every basic course clearly teaches that your first dives (the number varies from 20 to 60 in different courses) should be in shallow, clear water and preferably with a professional (is that what you mean by "pre-packaged" dives? They are commonly referred to as 'canned' dives). In your case the number should have been at least 23 because that's where the first problem appeared and that's where you need a professional who should have been showing you how to avoid those problems.

What makes you (or anyone) think that a newly certified diver can jump into the water anywhere with an experienced diver and do just fine. That's bad logic - he has no experience!!

You are correct that there are several factors that have made scuba diving safer now than before but the greatest is the training. The only equipment improvement that has contributed directly to increased diver safety is the BC and that is useless without training. Putting a new BC on an untrained diver won't keep him safe! Nor will a 7' octo hose. The length of the hose has nothing to do with diver safety - it's all about diver rescue.

You're also right on about the additional skill training that comes from supervised experience whether on a con-ed course with your own instructor or on a stand-alone skill upgrade course like gooey.

It would be a mistake to go backward in scuba training and try to include all that in the basic course. I say go backward because that's what it would be. We've been there! By the time the new diver finished the course, he would be frustrated, he would have forgotten the all-important first few lessons (the current O/W course) and he would not have those vital initial skills drilled in. It's those skills that allow him to dive safely - the additonal skill development from a con-ed course make it easier, more enjoyable and help him to avoid problems and thus allow him to venture out on his own without supervision.

[JimC]

What makes you (or anyone) think that a newly certified diver can jump into the water anywhere with an experienced diver and do just fine.


While not -anywhere-, but in my case condisions were very simmilar to my checkouts. A bit less vis and shalower.

From naui.org

OVERVIEW
Scuba Diver is the NAUI entry level scuba certification course. It provides the fundamental knowledge and skills to scuba dive. Upon successful completion of this course, graduates are considered competent to engage in open water diving activities without supervision, provided the diving activities and the areas dived approximate those of training


The padi website tells us basicaly nothing, but I am sure it has simmilar verbadge.



So whats the deal? Do these courses meet there objectives? Can ever single graduate go off and dive with confidence in areas simmilar to there checkouts?

Can ANY graduate?

More training, more experince as part of the class or give them a learners permit which requires supervison. Go back to the old way? Got no idea if it was better or worse, since I was never trained back then. I will trust you there and say training is better now. But it is lacking when it comes to fufilling its end objective.


Contradictory, yep. Your right, my post was contradictory. I was a good student and was unprepared to dive alone. My instructor was good, going well beyond the requirements of the course. Offering extended time, one on one instruction at no charge. You name it and he was there to help you. We still routinely dive with him and he has become a good friend.

So again, what is wrong with this picture?


It takes a good 50 hours+ of pratical experince to have a license to kill someone in a plane... in the daytime... in perfect weather.

Scuba is what 2 hours or less? Another 2-3 to do it at 100 ffw at night?

[Bubble Boy]

Thats why clubs are good. A group of divers continuing in their experience and thereby learning. As the saying goes a responsible diver is always learning.

[Bubble Boy]

Any water skill development will help you in your diving. Find a club or store sponsored group that is doing some activities to help with your ongoing learning. Some of the divers on this board in the Brockville, Cornwall and Ottawa areas are playing underwater hockey and that helps them keep up the snorkelling skills over the winter.

Even if you dont want to dive in the winter months find a dive club or local dive store that is going out to do an ice dive and just watch and learn. I am sure they would welcome you with open arms and even pass you a shovel.

[jrtonkin]

Bah. I wrote a nice long reply, that got eaten by the board timeout-ing while I was in the middle of it.

Anyways, to start, sorry to throw down the gauntlet and then run away... School decided to eat a couple of days there.

So lets start at the beginning, course objective.

We went up to Tobermory for our open-water weekend, and did a bunch of the shallower dives there: Lighthouse point, Dave's Bay, Sweepstakes/Grand Rapids, and Minch.

So that's the standard I consider my training to have gone to, and what I should be able to repeat on my own with minimal supervision.

Do you think that this is a reasonable goal for a first course. Cold water, daylight but with somewhat limited visibility (make out another diver at 15 to 20' away), less than 60' deep, a mix of shore and boat diving, no significant current.

Jamie

[Groundhog246]

jrtonkin once bubbled...
We went up to Tobermory for our open-water weekend, and did a bunch of the shallower dives there: Lighthouse point, Dave's Bay, Sweepstakes/Grand Rapids, and Minch.

So that's the standard I consider my training to have gone to, and what I should be able to repeat on my own with minimal supervision.

Do you think that this is a reasonable goal for a first course. Cold water, daylight but with somewhat limited visibility (make out another diver at 15 to 20' away), less than 60' deep, a mix of shore and boat diving, no significant current.
Jamie
Reasonable goal, yes. What was your max depth? I know a diver who deepest cert dive was 25 feet in a quarry, yet got a C-card certifying him to 60 feet????

My training sounds like it was similar to yours (Also did it at Toby). Gradually deeper dives to a max of 55 feet. How many dives since, how soon after did you next dive? How many and how long since cert?
My LDS strongly encouraged getting wet again asap. Of course I could be cynical and say that's so I'd have to rent or buy gear. But they reasoned that if you get actively involved while the training is fresh, in the long term you will remember more and have better skills. I probably lucked out (although it the nrom for those who cert with the same LDS and get out and dive), most of my early dives were with small groups and I was frequently buddied with an instructor or divemaster who "coached" me along in my skills development. There was nothing like watching an experienced diver, properly weighted, in complete control of his buoyancy, stop and hover 12" to 18" off the bottom and I yo-yo'd around, to inspire me to do better. Of course you have to want to do better, some are content to "till" the bottom, which is perhaps another "gap" in their training.
My first and most serious incident to date was around my 15 dive (don't have my log handy), on a shore dive, at 50ffw, my buddies reg free-flowed. Took me about 15 to 20 seconds before I fully realized the bubble stream was continuous, he hadn't noticed yet. I got his attention, indicated a problem, pulled my octo from it's holder in case it was required, and we made a "textbook" controlled ascent. If you've never done an straight up ascent from 50 feet, with no guideline, you should try it. At the 25 foot mark, when viz isn't much more, maintaing your ascent rate and keeping contact with your buddy is not such an easy task.

Not sure where JimC certified Scuba is what 2 hours or less? Another 2-3 to do it at 100 ffw at night?, but that's downright scary and certainly not adequate. I spent about 10 hours in a classroom and another 8 to 10 in a pool and over 2 hours of certifying dives for OW.

[SneakyB'tard]

2-3 hours?!?
...Sounds like someone got 'certified' down south!;)
Everyting be Iree..... breath ere, don't worry mon , ok dive!

[JimC]

2-3 hours?!

Just how much, practical, openwater experince do you have when you get your card?

2-3 hours.. tops. 5-6 dives of 20-30 minutes each. Do you log your pool dives? Didn't think so.


Class room time is a joke too. Mind you, I don't think the short class time is that bad. Your tpical diver dousn't need to recite gas laws for rote or know what a moule is.

They just need the pratical effects of all that, like not leaving a full tank in a hot car trunk in the sun.

[jrtonkin]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...

Reasonable goal, yes. What was your max depth? I know a diver who deepest cert dive was 25 feet in a quarry, yet got a C-card certifying him to 60 feet????

My training sounds like it was similar to yours (Also did it at Toby). Gradually deeper dives to a max of 55 feet. How many dives since, how soon after did you next dive? How many and how long since cert?

But they reasoned that if you get actively involved while the training is fresh, in the long term you will remember more and have better skills.

controlled ascent. If you've never done an straight up ascent from 50 feet, with no guideline, you should try it. At the 25 foot mark, when viz isn't much more, maintaing your ascent rate and keeping contact with your buddy is not such an easy task.



In order... Max depth: 45', and that was actually on our first dive. Mind you, on that dive we were about as tightly supervised as possible. One buddy pair of new divers, one buddy-pair of instructors, while the assistant-instructors kept herd on the rest of the class in a shallow (15'?) area.

The other dives were 25', 30' and 40'. And theoretically my C-card says I'm good down to 120'. Yeah, right.

It was a long time until I did the next couple of dives, and a longer time since until I went again. Fortunately I was able to join up with the same instructor again for a few sessions of review before going back out.

I blame the big gap on (well, other than myself not persuing the sport rigorously) student-budgets, and an artefact of when/how the course was taught... It was taught through the recreation program at the university, not a LDS or club. So when I wanted to go diving again after the course finished, I didn't know anyone in town to go with, the people I'd done the course with having graduated, or otherwise gone out of cotact.

And I'd agree about early and frequent post-training diving being good for you. Essentially, I see that as one of the biggest benefits of a longer course... Most of the basics are covered in the first couple of sessions, and later sessions help you practice and reinforce those skills in a more supervised environment.

Heh. I still consider ascents the hardest part of a dive. Up until about 15' it's all pretty good, and holding the 15' stop is fine. But the last little bit tends to be pretty jerky... Either I end up letting out too much air, and have to swim up, or else the ascent gets a bit out-of-control, which usually leads back to dumping too much air...

Mostly a practice thing I hope. Learning to balance letting air out with rate of ascent. <grin> That or a good engineering project... Hey, I've got a project course in 4th year...

Jamie

[taz22]

Bubble Boy once bubbled...
Any water skill development will help you in your diving. Find a club or store sponsored group that is doing some activities to help with your ongoing learning. Some of the divers on this board in the Brockville, Cornwall and Ottawa areas are playing underwater hockey and that helps them keep up the snorkelling skills over the winter.

Even if you dont want to dive in the winter months find a dive club or local dive store that is going out to do an ice dive and just watch and learn. I am sure they would welcome you with open arms and even pass you a shovel.


I thought I'd second this piece of advice. Our underwater hockey program via our local LDS club is a great experience and keeps you active. You would be amazed at how some of the newer divers have taken to the sport.

A local diving club is the way to go to help build you diving knowledge and number of dives. I'm close to completing my Divemaster course ( just waiting for the ice to go away so I can complete my map ) and we have 6 other Divemaster's in my club that are always willing to buddy with and work with new divers. I think this increases the comfort level for new divers and they learn from a dive leader and usually carry on with good diving habits.

I think that any type of further diving education can only make you a better diver. So sign up for some course that interest you!

Happy Diving!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aquabella]

I'm on my way to my first meeting with...da club tonight! Oh yeah...