Icediving TEC or REC?

[icediver]

I may be wrong, but I am unaware of any of the tec agencies teaching this program. There are lots of things to consider when it comes to this program. Lets see where this thread goes.

T

[Rick Murchison]

You left off "insane."
Rick

[TwoBitTxn]

For the training and specialized equipment that goes into it, I would call it tech diving.

TwoBit

[Bob3]

If you're a WWW, ice diving can be as exotic as a moonwalk.
If you're from the frozen tundra states, a chain saw is part of your normal dive kit. ;)

tip: to modify a chain for cutting ice, the rake teeth are ground way down, or off. Mineral oil is substituted for bar lube, it doesn't hurt the environment & a couple of organic chemists have promised me it won't mess up the latex.

[icediver]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...
You left off "insane."
Rick

I was thinking about that one.

T:D

[leadweight]

by the dive industry and training agencies does not include diving in an overhead enviornment. That, by itself, makes ice diving technical.

[Pez de Diablo]

It's rec diving IMHO, yes you are in an overhead environment, but you are tethered to the surface. You (typically) don't dive further than 130' linear feet from the entry point (I think this is within PADI rec limits definition). You do not require a redundant set-up. And if you have a problem you can ascend directly up your tether to the entry point, just like you would on any open water dive - albeit on a bit of an angle.

You should dive with a environmentally sealed 1st stage to prevent freeze up and where I live, that is part of my regular kit - right along with the chain saw. Nothing technical about it. Heck, my first ice dive was in a wet suit.

[roturner]

Pez de Diablo once bubbled...
It's rec diving IMHO, yes you are in an overhead environment, but you are tethered to the surface. You (typically) don't dive further than 130' linear feet from the entry point (I think this is within PADI rec limits definition). You do not require a redundant set-up. And if you have a problem you can ascend directly up your tether to the entry point, just like you would on any open water dive - albeit on a bit of an angle.

You should dive with a environmentally sealed 1st stage to prevent freeze up and where I live, that is part of my regular kit - right along with the chain saw. Nothing technical about it. Heck, my first ice dive was in a wet suit.

In a cave you are "tethered to the surface" too in the sense that you have a continuous line to open water. What's the difference?

R..

[Pez de Diablo]

roturner once bubbled...


In a cave you are "tethered to the surface" too in the sense that you have a continuous line to open water. What's the difference?

R..

You don't have someone on the end of you spool to pull you out, as you do when ice diving.

[akforsyth]

It would have to be rec for me. Heck I did my AOW dives under the ice! PADI does not need to know that, but as Pez has stated, being tethered to the surface with people manning the ropes and a devised set of signals makes it pretty idiot proof. Continuous communication is kept while I have done it by tugs for taking up slack or letting some out, or stop. But with that said, the ice up here covers the lakes for about half the year, so it is just a normal part of life for us. Part of learning to dive in the frozen wasteland (along with 0 vis most the time).

[roturner]

Pez de Diablo once bubbled...


You don't have someone on the end of you spool to pull you out, as you do when ice diving.

Hmmmmm. Maybe that was too easy :)

Are you suggesting that dives with surface support are not technical?

R..

[akforsyth]

How 'bout we define technical and see where that leads us...or will everyone have their own definition?

[Pez de Diablo]

Yup - When ice diving.


But surface support can mean many things. If I am a surface support diver, supporting someone during a long deco stop that to me is considered a tec dive. During an ice dive, I am providing surface support by tending the tether, it's just part of a rec dive.

During a recreational dive you have direct access to the surface.

You could argue that all diving is technical - you need special training before relying on SCUBA.

[divedude]

I think it depends were you are from!
If you live in the Keys or tropic's all you life and never dove in water colder than 70' it would be a tec dive :wacko:
But.. If you live up here in the great white north it must be rec. or we'd never get to dive :D
Water temp very seldom get's above 50' at depth and that's only in August, in May and June 40' is a good day :eek:

[Bob3]

You do not require a redundant set-up
Heck, I ALWAYS use a bailout/pony bottle for ice diving.

[Waterborne]

I'm in total agreement with divedude, depends on where you are from. Up here in MI, winter lasts 6 months or so:D . Ok, not really, but it feels like that. Ice diving up here is the only way to dive now. I would consider it recreational. I think Bob brought up a good point as well. Although I always have a redundant air supply on any dive. But that's another subject altogether.

[MikeFerrara]

Using the PADI class for an example because I'm an instructor...You are limited to a penetration of 130 ft. While a redundant gas supply is recommended it isn't required. You are tethered to the surface and have direct access to the hole (not the surface). Alot like recreational wreck penetration (if there is such a thing) or cavern diving. It isn't easy to define technical but an ice dive is alot different than a reef dive yet there is a world of difference between a "recreational" ice dive and cave or wreck dive with much longer penetrations that sometimes require staged decompression and multiple gasses. On a recreational Ice dive you give three tugs on the line and you get pulled out. If you fail to return signals you get pulled out. If you get off the tether a team of safety divers is ready to come and look for you. You don't have to learn to run or manage a reel like in cave or wreck diving. You don't have to learn to navigate like you do in cave or wreck diving. Ice diving has it's challanges but there is not comparisson with caveor wreck penetration.

[icediver]

Well put Mike.
Other safety issue would be the fact that supervision is 2 students to instructor, making safer than open water classes.

A lot of people are indicating that it should be technical diving, for some valid reasons. I am curious why there are no technical courses being offered.

Side note. Took a 65 year young gentleman icediving this weekend. So much for being technical.

T:wacko:

[mexman]

I've read through this one with some interest and I've have had this discussion several times with others. In general, I would have to agree with Pez's position on this one!

Having been on the both ends of the safety line with Pez, I'd have to agree that unless you're doing something way outside the norms of a regular ice dive, you're not really restricted from the surface. Most formal ice diving training is simply an extension of AOW and builds skills for emergency situations such as a lost line, reg free flow and hypothermia. How are these additional recreational skills any different that those developed through other specialty courses?

[Ontario Diver]

The best definition of tech diving I've heard is "A dive where a direct ascent to the surface is not possible due to a hard or soft overhead environment". BTW, a deco obligation is considered a soft overhead environment.

If you follow the above definition (and note that it says nothing about equipment making the dive tech or rec!!) then an ice dive is a technical dive.

So are there rules about novice" technical divers?

[icediver]

I guess if your directly below the hole, and make an ascent it would be considered a recreational dive.

T

[DIR Tec Diver]

I live in Helsinki Finland, and I am ice diving every week here, and not only am I an Ice Diving Instructor, I am a tec diver and instructor as well, so I feel confident that I know what I am talking about here.

I have seen all types of people with their own way of doing things, and I have seen most of those fail. If you go into an overhead environment (cave, ice, wreck) and you do not have reduntant configurations then you are an accident waiting to happen. This environment in itself is a technical type of diving, but of course it can be for recreational purposes. If you don't at least carry a pony bottle then you are not brave, you are an idiot. The ideal configuration is a set of doubles and twin regulators set up on an isolator manifold.

[MikeFerrara]

DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
I live in Helsinki Finland, and I am ice diving every week here, and not only am I an Ice Diving Instructor, I am a tec diver and instructor as well, so I feel confident that I know what I am talking about here.

I have seen all types of people with their own way of doing things, and I have seen most of those fail. If you go into an overhead environment (cave, ice, wreck) and you do not have reduntant configurations then you are an accident waiting to happen. This environment in itself is a technical type of diving, but of course it can be for recreational purposes. If you don't at least carry a pony bottle then you are not brave, you are an idiot. The ideal configuration is a set of doubles and twin regulators set up on an isolator manifold.

What agency do you teach ice diving under? Do you have PADI ice diving students in doubles? Do you consider this a "tech" course? I believe this is the first time I have ever heard a DIR tech diver recommend a pony bottle for anything.

[vlada]

My local PADI shop just came up with a policy of NOT allowing their students to dive in doubles - so much for redundancy or technical approach

None of the instructors or students dive with the pony bottles either

:(

[JDostal]

I would qualify ice diving as recreational diving. It's taught by padi for crying out loud (I've got the c-dard). It's not that difficult, you are not that far away from the hole and you are tied to the surface with 3/8" poly rope. I don't think it's got the level of gear, planning or commitment to be a tec dive.

Of course, this is coming from a wisconsinite...either you ice dive around here or you don't get to dive at all for a good chunk of the year.

[DIR Tec Diver]

To me the ideal rig is not that someone uses a pony bottle, I recommend you use a DIR doubles configuration, but I know quite a few divers that do not want to dive in doubles, nor can they afford the rig, so since I can not force the issue, then I reccomend that someone have some sort of redundant air supply such as a pony bottle. When I am teaching any course that does not mandate a particular equipment configuration such as in OWD, I use my doubles.

No I do not only train students in doubles, but I will not take them under an overhead environment without at least dual independent regs or a pony bottle. Since their lives are in my hands, I must ensure that they are safe. I could never forgive myself if something happened to a fellow diver and I could have prevented it by ensuring they had some sort of bailout system. I take diving very seriously, but always maintain a relaxed and fun environment. We can all relax more, and have fun when we have the confidence that we have the appropriate equipment for the diving at hand.

Hopefully that clarifies my comment. Thanks for the question.

[JamieZ]

Yup you just clarified that you are not DIR. GI says your 100% DIR or your a stroke. You must be a stroke if you use a pony or teach it. Hey man thanks for making that clear. Now we can be buddies because I'm a stroke. Your stroke, I'm a stroke wouldnt you like to be a stroke too?

[JDostal]

DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...

I could never forgive myself if something happened to a fellow diver and I could have prevented it by ensuring they had some sort of bailout system.

So by a bailout system, you mean something like the Spare Air I carry, right? I mean that thing should have enough air to get my out of just about any situation I could get myself into. At least that's what all the testimonials on their website say.

I've got independent regulators too - I've got one of those Air2 thingies on my BC. I've never really used but it sure is nice to know it's there if I were to ever need it.

[icediver]

[QUOTE]DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
I reccomend that someone have some sort of redundant air supply such as a pony bottle.

My question then is do you prohibit students to take part in your ICE DIVING program if they don't have a pony. This is because you only reccomend having a redundant air supply.

Now I am also a TEC diver and if I have been taught that my buddy is my redundant brain, it only makes sense that they would be my redundant air supply. Yaa think.

T

[reefraff]

There have been some very interesting and somewhat suprising responses to this question. It seems that the arguments in favor of calling ice diving recreational fall mostly into two camps:

It's so cold here that ice diving is all that's available for much of the year.

Does the fact that you do it a lot mean that it's not technical? Or does it just mean that you do a lot of technical diving?

It's not really technical diving because we have special gear and special techniques to make it safer.

Isn't this one of the best definitions of technical diving? When special training, equipment or techniques not taught or used in recreational diving are required to conduct the dive, it's a technical dive.

Why ice diving is technical, not recreational:
It's an overhead environment.
It's so cold as to present extreme risks to self and equipment.
It requires special training.
It requires special equipment.
It requires special techniques.
Most people think it's insane.
There seems to be an almost automatic "but I'm not a technical diver" flavor to many of the responses and I don't understand why. There's nothing wrong with technical diving. It is special, however, and extra-recreational. If you have the training, equipment and experience to be an ice diver, you are part of the elite in the world of scuba: a technical diver. Just don't tell your insurance agent. ;)

Steven

[JDostal]

Personally, I think the phrase "technical diving" is pure BS.

You're still a recreational sport diver, no matter what type of breathing gas you are using, no matter why type of exposure protection you wear or no matter where you dive.

It's a sport, a hobby. Yes, I may personally be ridiculously obsessed with my sport and have a ton more gear and a ton more training than most others involved in my hobby...but it's still sport recreational diving.

It's like saying I'm a "technical bicyclist" when I bike 3000 miles in a summer. Or I'm a "technical hiker" for having hiked the entire pacific crest trail in a summer. Laaaaaaaaaaaammmeeeee.....

When you are in a hardhat doing some welding on an oil rig with surface support...then I'll agree you might be getting technical. But then you are a commercial diver.

Yes, some divers do take recreational sport diving to greater lengths than other people. The reason I personally don't think Ice Diving is technical diving is because I really don't think any of the diving we do as a sport/hobby is technical diving.

[icediver]

All diving then would have to be considered Technical. Every course you take be it OW you require special gear, regs,BCD,tanks and so on. To do a rescue course you need special gear, throw rope, floats and so on. You can be Wreck certified but not be a Technical diver, as long as you adhere to the training that you received.

So why is it that the technical agencies don't teach ICE DIVING?

T

[JDostal]

Part of the reasoning behind my post is that I did post early in the morning when I'm a complete craba$$, so I get a little harsh sometimes :)

[mddolson]

I am speaking from historical info.
Ice diving has been considered a recreational specialty.
General technical requirements are: depths beyond 130 ft rec limit, or manditory deco, or change of breathing gas, or rebreather use.

You can argue that diving in an overhead envirnment should constitute technical , but it doesn't. Neither does wreck penitration. Just specialty training.

Due to the limited exposure time, due to the cold and being teathered back to the hole, depth is limited.

MikeD

If you live up where the snow flies, and you can't afford a trip south, Ice Diving may be the only option.

[frogxman]

I think everything depends on the way how the diving is conducted. According to PADI standards (which are recreational) the diver should be secured by a line (special requirement to the line - it should be floating) and has a personal tender onthe surface. In this setup I don't think that this way of diving is much more than a recreational diving. Yes - it is cold, yes - it is an overhead diving, but it is usually shallow and the diver can be pulled immediately to the surface.
Now not all the ice diving is done this way. Take a look on Arctic/Antarctic scientific diving reports - the divers are not tied to the surface. The hole is marked with a strobe light. There should be a second safety hole. It should be protected from freezing. Divers go much deeper (since they are not limited by the line) and probably stay longer. In such conditions I would say, the redundant air system is a must. In this case ice diving can be considered a technical diving.

[DIR Tec Diver]

This weekend, I was solo diving in Finland, under ice, with my scooters (Gavin of course) and well below 40 meters and over 100 meters from my entry/exit point.

Yes, to me it is recreational diving because I do it for fun and relaxation, but completely technical in nature, as I needed to do decompression, and all of my gear is well beyond the standard recreational configuration. Everything redundant, everything streamlined and in proper order.

Would I recommend this to a non-experienced and competent diver? NEVER. I would not recommend this to almost anyone, but I know this site like the back of my hand, I am a competent diver, and it is what I wanted to do. Having the scooters also ensures that in the unlikely event something did happen, my travel time to my exit point was extremely short.

In effect, my diving was safer than most dives that people can do in almost any type of dive, but certainly well beyond the competencies of your average diver.

I will let you decide if it is tec or rec, but to me anything in an overhead environment is technical even if you are doing it for fun.

PS Please stow your comments about solo diving we will never see eye to eye, so lets agree to disagree..

[Scubaroo]

This weekend, I was solo diving in Finland, under ice, with my scooters (Gavin of course) and well below 40 meters and over 100 meters from my entry/exit point.
DIR = Do It Right, Or Don't Do It At AllSounds like you should listen to your own advice.

[O-ring]

Scubaroo once bubbled...
Sounds like you should listen to your own advice.
You mean you can't just pick the parts of the system you like and adopt those???

:D

[JDostal]

Man, this guy is too funny. He should really stand up and take credit for giving me a laugh in the middle of the day :)

Hey, at least he's persistent!

[icediver]

So answer me this. What happens in the unlikely event that your scooter craps out and there's nobuddy to tow you back.

Don't know if this is the smartest thing I've heard of.

My dive buddies and I do the same thing. Well I guess it's not the same thing as we do it together. Safety in numbers.

T

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...

You mean you can't just pick the parts of the system you like and adopt those???

:D

I say we band together to make him change his name. I don't care if someone solo dives but I wonder what his good personal freind Trey thinks of this.

[O-ring]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I say we band together to make him change his name. I don't care if someone solo dives but I wonder what his good personal freind Trey thinks of this.
I don't think the use of multiple Gavins negate the "un-DIRishness" of a solo ice dive. Maybe one of the mods can rename him to DIW TEC Diver..

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...

I don't think the use of multiple Gavins negate the "un-DIRishness" of a solo ice dive. Maybe one of the mods can rename him to DIW TEC Diver..

OTOH, maybe dropping 7K on two Gavins allows you to use whatever name you want.

[JDostal]

Do you get an honorary DIRF certificate? :devil:

Hehehehe...

[pt40fathoms]

DIR Tek Diver? He really is one big contradiction. Name change? Yup, I'm down with that.

[DA Aquamaster]

reefraff once bubbled...
There seems to be an almost automatic "but I'm not a technical diver" flavor to many of the responses and I don't understand why.

I think you kind of hit on it, a lot of divers doing technical diving in every sense of the word, from overhead environment, specialized techiques, and equipment are reluctant to call themselves tech divers. Not because they aren't tech divers or are not qualified to be doing what they are doing, but because they will be told they aren't, told they are a stroke, or told they are just a wanna be if they don't adhere to the right philosophy by those who have taken the right techical courses.

[ScubaPete]

I plan on learning how to Icedive this winter. Im really excited. Our water doesnt have the best viz so it should be better under the ice. I sure wouldn't go without a buddy. I also wouldn't go without a line.

Pete

[BigJetDriver]

One should not be overly concerned about whether one is a "technical" diver or a "recreational" diver! Unless you are being paid to do what you do, you are, by the most basic of definitions, a "recreational" diver.

The term "technical" diver originally started out as a way to differentiate those of us who want to penetrate caves, the hulls of sunken ships, or soak ourselves in nitrogen and helium and hang on the end of a line until we are bored silly, from those of us who merely want to extend our snorkeling time to a nice shallow glide along the reef (or ledge, etc).

The term has grown in its usage, and been (as we all love to do) modified a lot over the years. Yet, within the gathering gloom, there does seem to be a consensus that "recreational technical" diving is the correct term when one is participating in diving in which one is prevented from returning "directly" to the surface by some sort of ceiling, be it rock, ice, metal, or the "glass" ceiling created by required decompression obligations.

So what do we call our northern brethren who, by choice and/or necessity, dive in near freezing water under a load of already frozen water? Well, some would call them desperate to find a place to dive. From my personal standpoint, since I believe that water freezes below about 69 degrees, I would call them genial nutcases who think they are related to polar bears, BUT they do have my respect!

From the standpoint of being an Instructor Trainer with a "technical" agency, I would have to vote for the side that advocates never doing it without the tether or guideline, AND a redundant air source (meaning not just the buddy near by, and more than the little Spare Air unit). As Mr. Natural always said: "Get the right tool for the job, kids!"

But, hey, have at it and have FUN!=-)

[ScubaPete]

Im on the local dive team so I suppose It would be cosidered
Technical for me

[BigJetDriver]

ScubaPete once bubbled...
I'm on the local dive team, so I suppose it would be considered "technical" for me.

I congratulate you for your spirit of volunteerism, and your willingness to do something for your community.

I think I was misunderstood, however, because, at any moment in which you are under the water and not being paid for it, by the strictest definitions you are engaging in "recreational" diving.

Since I am an Instructor Trainer for IANTD in Public Safety Diving (one, it seems, of my many hats), I will point out that dive team members acting in a "public safety" role (i.e. not in a training mode) fall into a "neither fish nor fowl" category at the moment.

This does not alter the meaning of my previous comments about the nature of ice diving, nor my belief that those who do so are genial madmen (and women)!:out:

[DA Aquamaster]

So...when I get paid $300 bucks to clear a jammed headgate in 10 ft of water it's a technical dive? How bout' when I get a 12 pack of beer for checking the cables under the dock at the marina? :)

[BigJetDriver]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...
So...when I get paid $300 bucks to clear a jammed headgate in 10 ft of water it's a technical dive? How bout' when I get a 12 pack of beer for checking the cables under the dock at the marina? :)

Was that head-gate under the ice as well?

You are losing track of the point which was, in truth, a very general one anyway. When you are being paid to do work under water, other than in the training role, you are actually a "commercial" diver. The slippage around the edges of these definitions is awesome.

By the way, thanks for the tip on the dock cables. I've only been getting a six-pack!:wacko:

[cast55]

Ice diving is a little bit different from cave or wreck diving, since ice is a dynamic overhead environment, which can change during the course of a dive. The typical recreational implementation of ice diving practiced by PADI, et. al. seems to be a bit ridiculous, IMO. They put divers in the water connected to a surface tether (incidentally, any line attached to a diver should only be attached via a quick-release snap shackle - never a carabiner) and let them swim around the hole. Exactly what is the objective here? The protocol in that case is similar to SAR diving, only the students are given only a limited introduction to line pull communication, tether management, and associated skills. Maybe I understand a different definition of ice diving, but what exactly are you accomplishing by tying yourself to the surface, limiting your excursion, and just hanging about in cold water? Ice diving by itself is not a distinct entity, but rather an environmental factor that needs to be appropriately managed in the same manner as you would manage diving other overhead environments, weather conditions, tides, currents and other potential hazards.

Diving with an actual objective in mind, the dive is conducted as if it were a cave dive, since you can't make a direct ascent, dual regulators (doubles with an isolation manifold) are SOP, as well as a continuous guideline to the surface. The difference with ice diving is that the surface hole needs to be tended to keep it clear, and you don't want to run #24 line against the ice, as any tension on it can actually embed the line in the ice. In this case, a heavy line is run through the hole from the surface to the first tie-off point, and the reel laid from there. I have done lake dives with excursions in excess of one thousand meters from the hole - protocol is identical to cave penetration, with the added risk of regulator freezing and shifting ice, necessitating diligent surface support to keep the hole clear and the guideline free.

I can't see ice diving being considered a purely recreational endeavour, since it requires redundant gear in accordance with any real or virtual overhead environment diving, and adds risks beyond those encountered in ordinary cave penetrations.

-Sean

[Albion]

My father used to dive back in late fifties early sixties, i dont remember his gear for real but have some photos.

Harness with tank - no bladder or wing of any kind, he laughs at my equipment, on the basis that once the tank is empty you float anyway, right good one dad.
No redundant reg
No SPG (of course i suppose when you are running out of air you will float up). DIR guys could even argue its another failure point to have an SPG.

He has stories of him and his buddy diving rivers (pretty shallow i guess) under ice (probably pretty thin i guess again) with no lines. To surface they worked there way along the underside of the ice till they found another hole or broke there way back through.

Is this TEC, REC or just suprising here is still here?

[JDostal]

I vote surprising that he is still there :)

[BigJetDriver]

Albion once bubbled...
...Harness with tank - no bladder or wing of any kind, he laughs at my equipment, on the basis that once the tank is empty you float anyway. Right, good one dad.
No redundant reg
No SPG (of course I suppose when you are running out of air you will float up). DIR guys could even argue its another failure point to have an SPG.

He has stories of him and his buddy diving rivers (pretty shallow I guess) under ice (probably pretty thin I guess again) with no lines. To surface they worked there way along the underside of the ice till they found another hole or broke their way back through.

Is this TEC, REC or just suprising here is still here?

Albion,

Your father reminds me of a guy I used to fly with who told me a story about how he and some friends put together a dive rig by taking the walk-around bottle and regulator from some old aircraft, putting some goop on it at certain places (as directed by a Popular Mechanics article), and going diving under the ice. He dove solo, and in a wetsuit, with no back-up of any kind!

He told me that it was a real hoot to tie the ends of the lines of two separate ice-fisherman together, and then to pull on the line, and watch the battle begin!

We have all done some crazy stuff, through either ignorance, arrogance, or just the belief in our own immortality! Sometimes we survive, (not always), and sometimes we realize how close we came to checking out! At least at that point we wind up learning something.

I'm glad your Dad is still here, and I know you CERTAINLY are!:D ;)