hi fellow tekkies,
further to the end of my extended technical diving course, i am looking for the optimal configuration for my two second stage regulators. I am diving independent tanks. SO, from my right side, there are two second stages that I am using with the BM, both on short hose, and i switch them with the rule of 1/3.
I have tried bolt snaps and attached them to the D ring, but I was not satisfied with the solution. Also the bolt snaps were too small. It is also hard to find them (right now impossible) in Israel.
Therefore, i was thinking of putting both of them via necklaces... Can I dive with two second stages hanging on my neck? I mean for deco, there is a third regulator that i do not intend to put also on my neck...
what do you think? is there anyone out there that tried this? any other idea? any pics?
thanks in advance,
sasha
SLJ
March 6th, 2003, 01:34 PM
Hi Sasha,
My advise is to buy an isolator manifold and long hose. One reg in your mouth. One reg bungeed around your neck. The third reg can then be stowed on your deco bottle out of the way. Keep it simple and clean.
Regards,
SLJ
dvas
March 6th, 2003, 01:41 PM
hi SLJ,
thanks for the idea... I can not connect my tanks, since i also need them as separate.... and for technical diving, i prefer to have two separate systems...
so i need some more ideas
sasha
detroit diver
March 6th, 2003, 01:53 PM
Sasha,
With a manifolded set, you still have independant systems (that's what the isolator valve does), but you also have the ability to use gas from both tanks. In addition, the gas usage is even between both tanks which does a lot of things for you including trim, balance, and not having to manage gas usage to obtain the same.
Two necklaces is one too many. If you need bolt snaps, I'd be happy to get some for you here in the States. A friend of mine visits Israel 3-4 times a year and he would bring them for you. Let me know what size you need and I'll get you prices.
Or PM me.
dvas
March 6th, 2003, 02:05 PM
thanks a lot DD for your generous offer. I will still need to keep my tanks separate, since i need them also as singles. Regarding the bolt snaps, local LDS has promissed to order them....
sasha
Sue
March 7th, 2003, 05:25 AM
sasha
I put both hoses toghether with tape in 2 or three places just to keep them toghether (the tape we use can easily be strapped). In the last piece of tape - the one which is near the 2nd stages I put a bungee with a clip at the end. That clip is attached to the upper D-ring. Being elastic the bungee allows you to easily operate both second stages, but also to keep them in place all the time.
I hope it helps
Sue
dvas
March 7th, 2003, 07:50 AM
do you have by any chance a picture?
sasha
Sue
March 7th, 2003, 12:41 PM
sasha
I'll take one this weekend and I'll post it next monday
Cheers
sue
dvas
March 7th, 2003, 06:32 PM
.
Silverback
March 8th, 2003, 01:39 PM
dvas once bubbled...
thanks a lot DD for your generous offer. I will still need to keep my tanks separate, since i need them also as singles. Regarding the bolt snaps, local LDS has promissed to order them....
sasha
Sasha,
You can order large bolt snaps from www.reafscuba.com The have both SS and brass. Not quite sure what the shipping will cost.
Best of luck.
Silverback
dvas
March 8th, 2003, 04:47 PM
local LDS that sells dive-rite carries some of them, so it looks that it won't be a problem (thanks anyway), but I am not sure that that is the solution.. i am hardly waiting to see how Sue has configured her regulators...
anyone out there that is diving independent twins... how do you configure your 2 second stages?
all the ideas are welcome.
sasha
SteveKL
March 9th, 2003, 01:38 AM
...before I switched to a manifold system. On many dives I'd add a 30 cube bailout between the two 80s, so I had three regs to juggle. The best solution I found (and keep in mind I'm only advocating this under the circumstances) was to keep my bailout reg on surgical tubing around my neck. I was using Dacor Viper Tec regs (bad scene) which swivel to breath left or right, so I ran right tank reg over right shoulder and left over left. Had each reg on a short (maybe 14-18") bungee leash clipped to D-rings in front. The reg not in use just hangs down in front, but since it's tethered you can find it easily for reg switches.
If I had two right-shoulder regs and no bailout, I'd consider putting one around my neck and one on a leash. I have had two regs both around my neck, but if you're switching back and forth they WILL get tangled up with each other.
dvas
March 9th, 2003, 02:37 PM
hi SteveKL,
I was thinking of putting one on the necklase around my neck, but I was not sure what to do with the second one... they both come from the right and they are identical (Legend LX). Can you please explain once again how did you attach with leash?
The third deco reg is coming from the left.
thanks,
sasha
Cave Diver
March 9th, 2003, 07:34 PM
Dvas,
I'm not sure if I am understanding your question correctly, but I will answer it the way I think you are stating.
If I was diving independant back mounted doubles, I would have both regulator hoses coming over my right shoulder. I would bungy the left tank regulator on a necklace and breathe off of the right tank.
If I was also carrying a stage or deco tank, I would sling it on the left side, with the regulator hose bungied against the tank, where it would be out of the way, yet easy to deploy when needed.
Assuming you were planning on breathing both back mounted tanks, I would breathe the first one down to 2/3 full, then switch regs. You would now be breathing from the left tank, and the right regulator would then be placed in your necklace.
If I was doing a mandatory deco dive, then I would turn the dive when the second tank was down to 2/3 of full and start my ascent.
If you can get one, a good double ender might be useful for clipping off the second reg when you switch to your deco bottle.
I'm sure there may be other ways of doing this, but this seems the most logical way to handle that type of configuration to me.
Sue
March 10th, 2003, 09:58 AM
Letīs try to post the pic
Sue
March 10th, 2003, 10:01 AM
Sasha
If you can not see the detail of the hoses attachment, I can send you the pic by mail in a different format.
just let me know something
Sue
dvas
March 10th, 2003, 12:33 PM
hi Sue and C.D.,
CD, since i dive independent, I use the 1/3 2/3 rule that you have described... Correct me if I am wrong, what I understood from you, is that you would bungee one regulator (out of 2 from the bottom mix) to the necklase and other one to a D ring with bolt snap... My deco (take a look at the pic when were preparing and playing with configuration last week in Eilat) is also on the back, but the deco reg is coming from the left and i should also attach it to the D ring... right? I will try this, may be today to see how it feels (the bungee)....
Sue, thanks for the pic.. I see that you have taped both hoses, so the reg are close together... right? Do you have some close up pics so i can see how did you attach them to the bolt snap/bungee?
thanks,
sasha
dvas
March 10th, 2003, 12:39 PM
i forgot to attach the pic.....
Sue
March 10th, 2003, 01:12 PM
sasha
i put the bungee in the last turn with the tape who keeps hoses togheter. If you need to put them apart, just pull the bungee and the tape with tear freeing the two hoses.
try to check that out here
Sue
March 10th, 2003, 01:18 PM
I forgot to tell you that i dive with poseidon jetstreams that allow you to put the hoses very well toghether. With other shape 2nd stages you'll have to put the tape a bit up on the hoses, so maybe you'll feel the weight of the regulator hanging ...
sue
dvas
March 10th, 2003, 03:10 PM
hi,
i have connected the left reg to the bungee... what is happening now, that the while the reg is bungeed to my neck and hose that is coming from the right is coming just below my shoulder and it is not confortable and it is hard to move my right hand and also it is conflicting with my second (inflator) on the right....
:confused:
and not just confused... but rather ;-0
i still have more then a week till next tek dive to sort this mess out...
HEELPPPPP
sasha
DIR Tec Diver
March 11th, 2003, 04:05 PM
Lets not kill our tec diver people. The pic submitted is one of the worst tec configurations I have ever seen. This is dangerous and unforgivable!
Solution.
Double tanks with 300bar isolator manifol
dual regulators (best are Apeks ATX50)
Right regulator has the long hose which will go underneath your canister light, around the left side of your neck towards the right and in your mouth. The right regulaor also holds the BC inflator hose.
Left Regulator has the HP hose which is only long enough to clip to your left waist d ring. Left Regulator has the short hose that has the necklace attached and goes around your head. It is important that you can get the reg in your mouth without using your hands.
If you use a dry suit like I do, you have a seperate reg and argon bottle including hose only long enough to go from the tank to the inflator
NO HOSES SHOULD HAVE HOSE GUARDS
Use proper wings and harness systems. Halcyon is the best. If you have Dive Rite, you are actually Dive Wrong. Trans pac is crap and only for wanna be tec divers. See my attached picture for the proper way your doubles should be configured
O-ring
March 11th, 2003, 04:21 PM
DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Lets not kill our tec diver people. The pic submitted is one of the worst tec configurations I have ever seen. This is dangerous and unforgivable!
Solution.
Double tanks with 300bar isolator manifol
dual regulators (best are Apeks ATX50)
Right regulator has the long hose which will go underneath your canister light, around the left side of your neck towards the right and in your mouth. The right regulaor also holds the BC inflator hose.
Left Regulator has the HP hose which is only long enough to clip to your left waist d ring. Left Regulator has the short hose that has the necklace attached and goes around your head. It is important that you can get the reg in your mouth without using your hands.
If you use a dry suit like I do, you have a seperate reg and argon bottle including hose only long enough to go from the tank to the inflator
NO HOSES SHOULD HAVE HOSE GUARDS
Use proper wings and harness systems. Halcyon is the best. If you have Dive Rite, you are actually Dive Wrong. Trans pac is crap and only for wanna be tec divers. See my attached picture for the proper way your doubles should be configured
Those are scubapro regs on those doubles...I thought you said Apeks... ;)
King Kong Matt
March 11th, 2003, 04:25 PM
DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
NO HOSES SHOULD HAVE HOSE GUARDS
Have you told George or the WKPP? Looks like he needs to reconfigure his rig...
As for the rest of your post...a little diplomacy might make your posts go a little further.
Dive safe,
KKM
You better call him quick before he becomes a statistic...he has the HPOD (hose protectors of death)!!
Aquamaniac
March 11th, 2003, 05:06 PM
Read the rest of DIR Tec's post's....A certain pattern emerges.....
dvas
March 11th, 2003, 05:15 PM
Hello DIR Tec Diver,
May be I missed to write it, but as I said, the picture was a part of the training, and the purpose was to configure the equipment. Believe it or not, not everybody is diving the way you think is the right way (call it DIR or not), and it still can be the correct way for them.
I was asking for a help, not preaching, and if you read my previous emails, I tried to mentioned that manifold is not an option for me.
Anyway, thanks for your inputs, but in this case they were not helpful, like the others that have posted in this thread (and I say thank you top them especially).
Anyway, I hope you will understand, that there are different divers and different equipment, and if may be does not suit your style of diving, it may suit others.
I wish you safe and pleasent dive, and if your journey brings you to this part of the world, I will be glad to show you around :).
sasha
Amphibious
March 11th, 2003, 06:30 PM
as a long time diver of independent Doubles I will agree that the picture above is one of the more messy configurations I've ever seen.
the O2 (will assme since it has a USD 02 reg on it, Diveinn?) bottle mounted on the back is a deathtrap if you get hung up in a net (spent a lot of time in the red sea, got into a lot of mono and netting)
I don't have any picts of mine, but I'll try to explain:
Solo: Each reg has Identical reg and SPG config. with the left reg having a inflator whip. Second stage hoses are short, approx 24in, and both have piston snaps atached so that they can be clipped on their respective shoulder's D-rings. I have each SPG clipped off in the same way on a D-ring mounted on each side of my Belt Buckle.
With a Buddy: Rigged exactly as if I was diving manifold.
If you're really keen to dive Indy Doubles, go sidemount! What I eventually did. Soooooo Comfy!
Willer
GearHead
March 11th, 2003, 07:19 PM
So Willer, are you saying that your standard doubles configuration now is side-mount? I'm curious, because I haven't seen any guys in our region dive that way. I hear there are plenty of cavers that go sidemount, but nobody for just deep and/or wreck diving. Got any pics? :)
Amphibious
March 11th, 2003, 11:11 PM
I might be able to dig some pics up from the Ontario days.
When you've got a long walk/climb to the dive site, sidemount is the only way to go.
I'm selling my TP2 so it's been converted back to normal singles use. It should be noted that the only readon I was diving sidemount was because I couldn't yet afford LP104 and a manifold and rental AL80's are perfect for sidemount.
Now that I have a bright shiny new DiveRite manifold on the way, no more indy's!
And "our region"? are you nuts? HELL NO! I hated Sidemount in a strong current. (+3 knots). I'll stick to manifold for west coast.
Willer
GearHead
March 12th, 2003, 12:37 AM
Thanks for the explanation, that sounds a lot more logical, and safer too. ;)
Amphibious once bubbled...
I'll stick to manifold for west coast.
Willer
dvas
March 12th, 2003, 01:17 AM
i have a question about that side mount: when diving with doubles on the back and one side mount (deco), do you feel in the water like 'turning' to the side where the deco is? I am asking since I never tried that... I understand if you have two side mounts... but one?
sahsa
PS: pls don't start to shoot... I am trying to learn here
Amphibious
March 12th, 2003, 03:00 AM
No shooting - don't worry.
First of all I'll assume you mean a stage? Sidemount generally means there is no back mounted gas.
As for turning/tipping. I've only used an AL40 and AL80 stage bottle, and on limited occasions. I didn't feel like it was effecting my trim at all. If you're planning to go this route, stay away from steel, as they are bloody heavy.
Luxfer AL tanks seems to have a much better trim profile then Catalina. And if anyone wants to chime in on this with boyancy quotes you can just take a hike, has nothing to do with it (sigh...)
Just the way the Luxfer "rides".
using a DiveRite (what I use) or DIR style stage rigging will really help keep your stage in the right position under your arm. the tank Valve Ring style never worked for me, and as I am a DIR follower, I agree with the safety faillings of this method.
On another note. if you are planing to carry a stage as a 3rd indy, you're just making the dive more eqipment intensive when it doesn't have to be, but can me done. Use one backgas tank in, turn the dive, the other backgas tank out, and the stage as your redundant. IMHO, a larger twinset would solve this problem.
Good luck, and remember, KEEP IT SIMPLE. a good indy rig is very basic. avoid clutter.
EDIT: as in the picture posted above, the third cylinder he/she/you? had back mounted, I would have hung that as a stage. much safer/simpler.
Willer
Sue
March 12th, 2003, 04:53 AM
Dir Tec Diver
WRONG WRONG WRONG
Lets not kill our tec diver people. The pic submitted is one of the worst tec configurations I have ever seen. This is dangerous and unforgivable!
This kind of attitude is responsible for a lot of bad thoughts concerning DIR. As an European you probably studied what Inquisition did ... Maybe one day we'll have DIR guys burning strokes ...
Use proper wings and harness systems. Halcyon is the best. If you have Dive Rite, you are actually Dive Wrong. Trans pac is crap and only for wanna be tec divers. See my attached picture for the proper way your doubles should be configured
I dive DiveRite, I dive Wrong, I'm a wanna be tec, I live in a third world country - either Halcion or GUE's guys don't care about a small market as Portugal, maybe you want to come here and teach us all how to tec dive ...
Cave Diver
March 12th, 2003, 09:05 AM
Sue once bubbled...
This kind of attitude is responsible for a lot of bad thoughts concerning DIR. As an European you probably studied what Inquisition did ... Maybe one day we'll have DIR guys burning strokes ...
Aggghh! Don't BBQ me just cus he has attitude problems! Your statement is 100% correct tho. DIR may be a better way for a lot of people to dive, but that type of self righteous holier than tho attitude is what keeps a lot of people from discovering the benefits of DIR.
I have also noticed that the "real" DIR folks (esp. those that teach it, like MHK and others) dont display this type of attitude. It's usually from the people that are clueless about the concept and are regurgitating their "net learning" or just plain want to be an @$$ about it....
Aquamaniac
March 12th, 2003, 09:10 AM
Try these DIR TEC Diver, they are VERY effective.............
Cave Diver
March 12th, 2003, 01:23 PM
Aquamaniac once bubbled...
Try these DIR TEC Diver, they are VERY effective.............
:rofL:
dvas
March 12th, 2003, 04:41 PM
one of the dissadvantages living in israel, is that we can NOT get whatever we want, like in UK, or US. Right now, due to some import regulations, it is almost impossible to import ANY scuba tank to Israel. I think that only scubapro has paid for the import licence. So , I can not just go in to LDS and buy whatever tank i want.
Second, it is like that not only with tanks, but rather with every non-standard products. So I can't either get non-standard lenght hoses.
Regarding my picture, it was for the purpose of learning, and I am/was aware that there were a lot of mistakes, but that is the point of learning... right? you learn from others (especially from this forum) and learn and learn...
As Sue said, not everyone is diving the same system, and it does not mean that they are diving wrong... they just dive different!
Now back to the topic. THe independent 10l steels are for bottom mix. The deco bottle is with 50% O2 for decompression.
Until now, i was putting it either back (as on the pic) and it was very convinient, or in front.
Some people here also suggested as a side mount... WOn't I turn that I side due to the weight?
DOn't forget, that those deco tanks are also rented, and I can get what diving club has... as simple as that, and we have to improvise and use this as good as possible.
sasha
WreckWriter
March 12th, 2003, 04:54 PM
Sue once bubbled...
Maybe one day we'll have DIR guys burning strokes ...
Is this an option?
:)
Aquamaniac
March 12th, 2003, 04:56 PM
If you can stand still long enough, Ill strike the match.
WreckWriter
March 12th, 2003, 04:57 PM
I bet you would!
Aquamaniac
March 12th, 2003, 04:58 PM
;)
O-ring
March 12th, 2003, 04:59 PM
Aquamaniac once bubbled...
If you can stand still long enough, Ill strike the match.
He would just use that to light a stogie and piss off the zealots even more...don't fall for his tricks..
MikeFerrara
March 12th, 2003, 05:10 PM
Amphibious once bubbled...
I might be able to dig some pics up from the Ontario days.
When you've got a long walk/climb to the dive site, sidemount is the only way to go.
I'm selling my TP2 so it's been converted back to normal singles use. It should be noted that the only readon I was diving sidemount was because I couldn't yet afford LP104 and a manifold and rental AL80's are perfect for sidemount.
Now that I have a bright shiny new DiveRite manifold on the way, no more indy's!
And "our region"? are you nuts? HELL NO! I hated Sidemount in a strong current. (+3 knots). I'll stick to manifold for west coast.
Willer
Sidemount divers push through some of the strongest current there is (high flow caves) with no more trouble than backmount.
Amphibious
March 12th, 2003, 08:49 PM
Mike: I just found them very unforgiving in open water with a strong current. nothing to grab if things go wong....
Sasha: As for the earlier question on tipping, if you're using a steel stage you might have to add counterweight to keep from "tipping". maybe someone who uses Steel Stages can help out here... I never have...
if you are keen to get some AL80's I will be in saudi arabia this summer and have easy access to them, not sure how to get them to you...
Willer
Doc Intrepid
March 13th, 2003, 12:43 AM
Sasha,
I don't believe that anyone suggested you 'sidemount' the smaller bottle in your photo that you are using for a deco bottle.
Perhaps its a matter of definitions...
I think the recommendation was that you sling the small bottle. Depending on how you consider the matter, its either on your 'front' or on your 'side'. Look at this site for more information:
http://www.diverite.com/resource/stage/index.htm
In an aside, your photo, if I'm seeing things correctly, illustrates two separate LP inflation hoses, one right and one left, for what I assume to be redundant bladders. It may clean up your configuration a bit, considering the probability of bladder failure, to only connect one LP hose (at a time). Should your wing bladder fail, the hose ought to be long enough to disconnect it from the left and then reconnect it to the right. (Yes, with only one hose conceivably you 'could' suffer both a bladder failure and a regulator or valve failure simultaneously. The chances of that occurring, however, are such that in that event you'd be forced to conclude that it just is not your day.)
Mounting the small bottle between your tanks is truly not the optimum solution. It potentially causes far more problems than it solves.
IMHO,
Doc
Sue
March 13th, 2003, 05:26 AM
Sasha
Portugal isn't as bad as Israel, but very similar. We have big problems to find tek equipment (variety and good prices) and to order something through internet costs you a lot, mainly due to postal charges - take a guess what it costs to order tanks from the UK...
We only dive steel tanks - well I've got a 7 l Al deco tank - but it cost me an arm!
Same happens with training - hopefully we have a TDI facility that is training up to Trimix, but we have a lot of problems to find diving centers or someone who takes you to technical dive. We have an absurd and old scuba law that doesn't allow you to go beyond 40 meters, so all dives deeper than that are considerred illegal ...
Despite all this, we keep on practicing and learning ...
Good luck to you!
Sue
dvas
March 13th, 2003, 02:33 PM
Sue, I can imagine how do you feel... we also have a law that is restricting diving. I also heard now something about licence for scooter?!
Anyway, the US guys don't understand, that on this side of the planet, you can not just get into the store and get anything that you want... There is no Radioshack,..
We have to improvize with what we have.
Sue, I am glad that I am not alone that understands my problems....
dive a lot, but dive safe,
sasha
DIR Tec Diver
March 13th, 2003, 07:01 PM
The picture I submitted was from Halcyon's web site, and yes a lot of the guys there use Scuba Pro regs because they work fine in cold water, but NOT in cold water like we have here in Finland. I had a brand new SP MK25 S600 that froze on me at 42 meters, and I immediately switched to Apeks which is the only regs you will see tec divers using up here. Since then I have never had a free flow, frozen reg or any other problems what so ever. Warm water is much more forgiving than arctic waters.
Of course there are people who want to do things their own way, and do not adhere to the DIR philosophy, but I belive down to my heart in DIR as it has been developed by painstaking research and lessons learned by the worlds best divers. Many of these lessons learned are from fatalities that could have easily been avoided by the appropriate equipment. As strict as it may seem, it is strict for a reason, and personally I believe in it, and I am alive today because of it.
Just a quick additional note. The note of the singles with the hose protectors is not George's (he does not go by George by the way) rig. It is an example of the DIW (doing it wrong configuration) so others can spot the wrong way to do things. That is a Dive Rite plate with unfinished edges and the hose protectors illustrate how difficult it is to appropriately streamline your rig.
I love the comments, keep them coming... It means we have people talking and thinking.
King Kong Matt
March 13th, 2003, 07:18 PM
DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Just a quick additional note. The note of the singles with the hose protectors is not George's (he does not go by George by the way) rig. It is an example of the DIW (doing it wrong configuration) so others can spot the wrong way to do things.
BS...total and complete, 100% Finlandian Grade A, unaldaterated BS.
I took the image off of the WKPP website...you can clearly see that the rig is standing in George's, or GI3's, or Trey's garage...the same garage where they shot the DIR III video with Bill Mee.
Here is the link to the page where I got the images...be so good and let me know where you see the caption labelling this as a "DIW" configuration.
And you just might want to check the Quest archives about this issue before responding again.
Happy trolling...
O-ring
March 13th, 2003, 09:58 PM
...busted...
WreckWriter
March 13th, 2003, 10:09 PM
DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
he does not go by George by the way
Doesn't he? That's kinda odd actually, most of the people here call him that, and he answers to it. Reality is that some folks call him Trey, others call him George. He answers to both.
When did you see him last? How many times in your life have you seen him? He lives about 5 miles from me. I see him every week or 2, you?
You're talking trash and a bunch of us know it.
WW
dvas
March 14th, 2003, 05:19 AM
it is also strange, especially for someone like me that has no experience with DIR, that on the fifthd site, they are talking about DIR Halcyon equipment, and that DIR "...All hoses use hose protectors as strain relief in order to minimize movement and wear...". Now I ask my self a qestion.... does DIR uses hose protectors or not....
don't waste your time replying to that kind of posts (a lot of guys here are doing it perfectly!)
Just find the rig's configuration that best suits your needs, among the few available in your country - read, learn and practice a lot!
Someday we'll also leave the dark, and see the light!
Cheers
Sue
Cave Diver
March 14th, 2003, 08:54 AM
dvas once bubbled...
"...All hoses use hose protectors as strain relief in order to minimize movement and wear...". Now I ask my self a qestion.... does DIR uses hose protectors or not....
This was discussed in my DIRF class, and not using hose protectors was advocated.
The reason given was that proper streamlining, along with proper hose routing, would reduce the majority of fatigue associated with the need for protectors.
Additionally, protectors made it harder to clean gear thouroughly where corrosion was most likely to build, and it was more difficult to assess the condition of the hose to metal connection where most failures occur if a protector in place.
They did not, however, make a big issue out of it, but rather just touched on it during our gear review.
