Paypal and Ebay suck

[rajambarnett]

Never posted, here goes. Appreciate the advice I have received thus far. Before I was aware of the best gear by reading this site, I had decided on Mares Abyss reg and octo. Bought it through Ebay from a seller with no feedback. Dumb, dumb, I know. However, trust people a little too much I guess. Anyway, my reg and octo come in, warranty cards and all, but the gear is 2000 model. I've been PADI for 12 years, but just now buying my gear (yes, I'm purely rec diver). I wanted to return the gear, concerned about its shelflife---the seller wouldn't allow me to. To make a long story short, Paypal has an incredible policy that I will try my best to make everyone aware of. And I know that there is a lot of discussion about online purhases here, so I do believe that this is relevant. Paypal "does not investigate the attributes or quality of products traded for money"; this was their response to my complaint about my purchase. And most importantly, as of 1/1/03, NO credit card company can reverse charges to paypal because they are considered a third party biller. So, don't think that you're going to be covered just because you use your credit card---it's just like sending cash, you have absolutely no recourse. Bottom Line:

1) Don't use Paypal for any purchases. If you buy online, only buy from stores that don't use third party billers.
2) I highly recommend Rex Dive Center in CT; great people, all new/warrantied gear (auth retailers), very knowledgeable and courteous even before they knew they were getting the sale. I finally bought all of my gear through them.
3) Should I be concerned about these Abyss regs, considering their production date?
4) I went ahead and bought new regs anyway, after reading countless threads on here about whats best. Thanks.

My final setup:

Scubapro Mk25/S600
Scubapro R380
Mares Dragonfly Airtrim BCD
Suunto Cobra with compass/QD
Aqualung Tyke Mask
Mares Volo fins
Henderson Goldcore 5mm 2piece suit, gloves, boots
Spare Air
EMT snips
Oceanmaster BFK (titanium)
Spyderco rescue knife backup\
Mares Abyss reg and Abyss octo backup

[King Kong Matt]

It doesn't sound, from the way you describe the situation, that EBay or PayPal screwed you. PayPal forwarded your money to the seller and accordingly, the seller gave you your goods.

Were the goods you received something other than advertised? In other words, were you promised a 2002 model and received a 2000 model?

If not, I have to say I am failing to see what the issue is...you bought something - Paypal did as asked and gave your money to the seller, and the seller sent you what you bought. The fact that you subsequently became "worried about the shelf life of the products and wanted to return them" probably can't be pinned on either EBay or PayPal.

Unless I don't have all the facts or misunderstand the ones I do have.

In any event, it sounds like you wound up with good gear and are ready to go diving. If you're from CT, check out the NELD section, as we are always planning dive trips in and around the New England area.

Welcome to the boards.

KKM

[bwerb]

I don't think Ebay or Paypal was your problem...and quite frankly, regulators can last for decades. Take a look at some of the profile photos of people on this board who are diving with regulators and gear they have had since the 60's and 70's. Two year old regulators will be totally fine, they aren't like cottage cheese or something. Have your LDS give them a once over and hit the water!

Welcome to the boards,

Brian

[rajambarnett]

Yes, the regs were supposed to be new. Maybe I'm being over-cautious. (The physician in me.) The manufacturers recommend annual servicing, so that's kinda what I'm going by. I still contend that if someone quotes their product as "New", when in fact it is three years old (and by the way your life depends on its proper function), then you should be entitled to a refund if the terms of sale (and description) are not met. My beef, in reality, is with the policies of Paypal--you should be able to return something if the goods or services are not met. By their own description, they have no interest in the attributes or quality of a product that is paid for--in fact, the guy could have shipped me a pair of used boxers and they wouldn't care. The seller should have simply stated the real age of the product. It's age alone would have been enough to dissuade me from buying.

I plan to have the regs checked out by my LDS. True, they will probably be ok---but the guy should have been up front, rather than hiding behind Paypal.

Thanks for your comments.

[bwerb]

and have a warranty card. They "annual" servicing is dependent upon them actually having been used. Any regulator is tested and gone over during it's initial assembly with hoses etc. I think where you are feeling slighted is that they were not "the current model year". There is no dispute that these were indeed BRAND NEW regs ie. unused. It would be the equivalent of me buying a toaster from a shop which had it on the shelf for three years, yes the toaster is "new".

Please take no offense at this, I really don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with the regs you bought. In terms of safety, a reg on the shelf for three years is not going to have been affected one bit. Again, have your shop hook it up and enjoy your dives.

As far as "paypal" goes, they are not in the warranty business, you are making a private transaction with another individual and they are the facilitator of the cash movement, nothing more. Paypal and Ebay have pages of disclaimers stating exactly what is and is not their responsibility. I know you feel like you got hosed but seriously, I think you are overreacting a bit. Take it all as a learning experience, now you know how it really works. You can decide next time if it is worth it to do it again.

One comment on your gear selection...Spare Air???? Please please please do a search on this piece of equipment using the boards archives. You mention that you are a physician and concerned about your safety...this piece of gear has far more likelyhood of permanently ending your diving career than any three year old reg, serviced or not. You might want to Ebay it right away;)

[Mverick]

We've got regs in from the manufacturer that were 2 years old when we received them.

And even new regs should be checked out before you dive with them. Especialy if bought online. And leisure pro is notorius for old stock regs and gear. Most online dealers are.

Now after saying that. My ScubaPro MK20/G500 was 2 years old when I bought it. But it was also new in box. I never had it checked out and have dove it for 3 years or more without even a burp or fart out of it. And I haven't gotten the annuals done on it either. And since I DM at a shop I wouldn't have to pay for it either. But if it ain't broke don't fix it. Alot of times after you have one checked out you have problems. That's when you seem to get problems. Once it's set up right it lasts a long time. At least what mine have done for me.

My Apeks I have are 1 to 2 years old and haven't had annuals on them either. Or even a initial checkout. I bought a total of 9 new apeks regs. And they are sweet still.

[MgicTwnger]

rajambarnett once bubbled...
Bought it through Ebay from a seller with no feedback.

And you wonder why you had problems?

[MikeS]

King Kong Matt once bubbled...
It doesn't sound, from the way you describe the situation, that EBay or PayPal screwed you.
KKM

I think that PayPal is screwing anyone that uses a credit card on a PayPal account. IMHO, they have an obligation to make it clear that you are forfeiting the rights normally associated with using a credit card. They’re not doing this. It’s just a mater of time until a class action suit addresses this.

Mike

[Groundhog246]

MikeS once bubbled...
I think that PayPal is screwing anyone that uses a credit card on a PayPal account. Mike
People seem to confuse auctions, Ebay and others, with retail stores. That and they think retail stores are obligated to accept returns. Stores accept returns voluntarily, most larger ones as a matter of policy, but none are legally obligated to do so. ALL auctions are buyer beware, you buy what you bid on. The auctioneer is just a facilitator not the seller, Payal and others just transfer funds. If you sent a money order and went to the bank to cancel, too bad, same with Paypal and IF you read their terms of service, it's there. To me the complaint is kinda like peole who sign the liability waivers before a dive and then try to sue for a DCS hit.
To the original poster, as previous posts have stated, unused, in the box, with all the documents, is NEW. I just sold a current model laser printer, recently introduced model, date of manufacture was 9 months ago. Probably spent 3 to 4 of those 9 in a shipping container. While we're used to trucks, couriers and overnight deliveries, the vast majority of goods coming across oceans are shipped in containers on board a ship and transit times are measured in weeks and months, not days. If you're nervous about the regs, have an annual done. My main reg set is over 10 years old and I wouldn't trade for a new set.

[Big-t-2538]

Ebay was like a garage sale. You know, people selling to people, with the goods right there in front of you. That's what it was before all the scam artists and liquidation hunters joined in. You used to rarely (if ever) find someon who would take a credit card....now you virtually have no other form of payment. I read the paypal agreement, and didn't like it at all. Ebay has since purchased paypal (I believe), and this is all the more reason for me to not pay through them. I would rather spend the few cents on a long-distance call to talk to the seller, confirm shipping information, and credit card billing.

Anyway...just my 0.02

[Mo2vation]

Looks like you're sort of taking it on the chin, rajambarnett from some of us with good intentions, but poor bedside manner.

Yeah - you may need a refresher course on the ins and outs of doing business on eBay these days, but as far as gear goes, Mvrick is right: My regs are 1999 and they're great. Get it all checked out by your LDS, pay is price for the check up, tip him (I do when I buy on-Line) and you should be OK.

Back to PayPal & eBay - as someone with well over 500 auctions sold and probably half as many purchased, I can't just sit here and not provide the other side of this discussion. Lets separate the two, for clarity:

All of you know my stance on eBay - The Internet is the most significant event of my lifetime, eBay is simply the best site on the web and the single best thing that's ever happened to the Internet. It’s changed my life, no question. But, like anything else, there are nuances to the game.

eBay is not for the risk averse. Its like PriceLine for air travel...sure you get great rates, but you give up something for those rates, and that is flexibility in your schedule. You can't get it all: great rates and your choice of dates and times.

eBay is much the same - there are treasures, absolute treasures (and scuba treasures...you've read about a few of mine, with 90% of my rig coming from eBay) but what you give up is pre-sales inspection privileges, demo privileges, return privileges, and often payment options. If you're OK with giving those up, then rock on. What you get in return is name brand merchandise for incredible savings (my DUI and Halcyon stories) OR, maybe name brand merchandise for immediate availability (my recent Turtle Fins story) and sometimes both. If you prefer to retain those privileges associated with traditional retail shopping, then shop elsewhere.

eBay makes no bones about it....this is peer to peer, baby. There is some cursory "insurance" available ($200 per transaction minus fees....) and they take their steps to police themselves and their community, they have outside quasi 3rd party services (Escrow, Arbitration, etc.) to offer peace of mind, but the bottom line is there is always a trade you make on eBay - you trade price and availability for risk. As a buyer, you reduce your risk by checking feedback, by eMailing the seller and feeling them out, by assuring the contact information in eBay is current, where is the seller located, how long have they been a member, etc.

As a Seller, I reduce risk by leveraging the product as hostage until payment clears, I accept only instantly negotiable funds for larger purchases, etc.

Know the eBay risks going in and you won't usually get burned. Be wise about this - buying a BMW on eBay is simply not wise. Buying 2 and 3-digit items on eBay makes moire sense. Will you still face disappointment when something arrives and it's not just as you had hoped? Sure. It happens. Contact the seller (most of us are reasonable) and if you can't find resolution, to through eBay's buyer complaint resolution process. If nothing works, flip it.

PayPal is another story. Its expensive, its invasive, its not at all user friendly to first time users. But I can't sell without it - its too convenient and timely. I get paid faster. I pay normal merchant fees to take the credit card (about 3%) from the buyer, but its a trade off - that 3% equals speed. PayPal buyers pay me, on average in 2 - 3 days. Non-PayPal buyers pay me, ON AVERAGE 8 - 15 days. Sometimes longer. If I want my money now, I use PayPal.

As a Buyer, its a tough one. Again, it’s not for the risk averse. There is no protection. But I buy with PayPal because it SAVES me money and time. I can pay from my desk, it’s free to buyers. I don't need to schlep down to the bank and pay for a cashiers check, then go to the post office and wait on the bluehairs. The trade off is speed.


Lets try to keep a little perspective of both sides.

eBay and PayPal aren't for everyone...few things are. But they do not suck. eBay delivers great deals and great merchandise, and enable me to off load my excess inventory quickly and efficiently (yard sale, please. I can have 30 people walking on my grass on a Saturday morning or put my stuff in front of millions for a week while I sleep in.... tough choice). PayPal has become the de-facto standard for payment - its also fast, not prohibitively expensive (although expensive) and free to sellers.

[Big-t-2538]

Mo2vation once bubbled...

The Internet is the most significant event of my lifetime, eBay is simply the best site on the web and the single best thing that's ever happened to the Internet.

I'm going to have to disagree here...outside of scubaboard, I think it is more like http://www.jayski.com/ simply the best racing site out there, and since I love racing, it is the best site on the web IMHO

[rajambarnett]

Just not going to buy from anyone with less than 20 or 30 positive feedback. That's unfortunate, considering there are a lot of honest people with feedback less than that. New means new to me. When I was comparing this guys price to another reputable online retailer, one thing was left out--the age of the product. That is a detail that is pertinent in every other purchase we make. The details about the innerworkings of Ebay are immaterial. I've used it and generally like the service that Ebay provides, in fact showed multiple others how to use it. Ebay alone does not "suck." But, it's affilitation (it now owns) with Paypal is an absolute monopoly and you have no choice but to use Paypal's service. Furthermore, I'm telling you these facts:

--Paypal has a backlog of over 100,000 buyer complaints
--The general public using Paypal has no idea that their money is not protected...Once the balance of knowledge shifts from the scam artist and Paypal to the general public, that will change.
--If you do a lot of business on Ebay, why don't you get your own credit card machine, for God's sake you can pay for your cotton candy at the local fair with a credit card.
--Any reasonable person on Ebay should allow returns, if the buyer is unsatisified with the product. It was going to cost me two-way shipping, by the way. If the seller is cofident in the quality of their product, they can relist and sell again. Doing business in general is a risk, obviously. But, clearly the seller has the upper hand on Ebay...They don't ship until the money is received and they have an 800lb gorilla, Paypal, in their corner. If there's a problem, just say oh well and Paypal will agree. I understand Paypal's predicament, but they do need to be upfront about their policy--"THE ATTRIBUTES AND QUALITY" of products shipped is immaterial, that is truly incredible, considering it is the single most important thing in determining the price of anything that we buy.

Anyone few on details is hiding something, end of story. In reality, the $400 is about five wipes on my cheeks...it just burns.

Don't get hostile, very reluctant to read your replies. I know that I screwed up buying from someone with virtually no feedback. I know that there are honest sellers out there, like mo2vation. Hopefully, anyone who does a search on this site about buying gear on Ebay will at least learn from my experience...buy from someone with a reputation, and try not to use Paypal. I will actively seek out large sellers who have their own store and have their own credit card machine. At the end of the day, I have to protect myself first.

[Mo2vation]

Hate to disagree on some of these things, but:

Actually - NEW means unsold. New does not mean current year model. We can debate this for days - but the core issue is the intent of the buyer. I've had this happen twice to me from LeisurePro - they sent me the OLD model. I was miffed for sure. it was new (unsold) but it wasn't current.

Actually - there are a zillion other payment options other than PayPal:
* Western Union (old school...)
* BidPay (Western Union new school)
* All forms of bank check
* All forms of money order (from 7-11 to USPS)
* Personal Check
* Cash / Pick Up
* I'm sure I missed some...

Actually - my company is a $20 million specialty retail company, and we're paying about, on average 2.7% to take a credit card. PayPal costs me, Joe Citizen about 3%... No machine hassles, no tracking this myself, no separate account requirements, no incremental hassle. I get on-line tracking of all transactions, confirmations, end-of-auction correspondence and payment requests, and a lot more stuff than I get from having my own machine. As a seller with little time and a keen on-line aptitude, PayPal is the bomb.

Actually - Returns can ruin a perfectly good product. Simply shipping a perfectly good product puts it at risk. Freight damage and road rash, handling damages the shipping box (if you don't overbox) clam-shelled items cannot be re-closed when opened, and can't be re-sold as new - even if they've never been used. There is a chance the consumer (and this happens OFTEN) has opened the manual (damaging that package) or forgot to send it back. Nobody in their right mind would take back something you breathe into - like a regulator, for any reason. You can't take back a $20 harmonica...no way you can take back a regulator.

Actually - Buyers are not PayPal's customers, Sellers are. No offense, but there are millions of auctions on eBay that don't take PayPal specifically because of PayPals fees...that's 3% off the top of the sale. Solution - don't buy from sellers who prefer / require PayPal.

However -
You are 100% spot on in your closing remarks about protecting yourself first. This goes for sellers as well as buyers. I've always said, eBay is a great place to sell, its not a great place to buy - although there are treasures out there.

I got burned one time - a Camcorder purchase. I should have known better (I'm still stinging a year later...what a dolt I was), as Camcorders are the riskiest thing to buy. Small, expensive, desirable, etc. I blew it and lost a lot of money.

If you'd like assistance unloading your stuff (if you're at that point in frustration) PM me and I'll gladly put it up for you, or walk through how to get max $$ for it. It sucks not getting everything you expected when you open the box - but the beauty of it is this: if you got a good (even a decent deal) you can always flip it and get your money back...or maybe a little more.


ken

[dvleemin]

rajambarnett once bubbled...
And most importantly, as of 1/1/03, NO credit card company can reverse charges to paypal because they are considered a third party biller.

Where did you hear this? Do you have a link from a credit card company that shows this?

Darryl

[rajambarnett]

After Discover Card informed me of this new policy, I checked with both Mastercard and Visa. These three issuers are all unable to dispute these charges. All three companies told me exactly the same thing. Check with your issuer, and not some nitwit rep, but a manager in the dispute department...they will tell you. Paypal states that they will investigate all complaints internally.

This is Paypals policy, which I received by email...

"PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy only applies to the shipment of goods, not to disputes about the attributes or quality of goods received. Therefore, we cannot reverse this transaction or issue a refund. We encourage you to continue to work directly with the seller to amicably resolve this dispute."

At least make buyers aware of this policy, I had no idea that Paypal didn't take "the attributes or quality of goods" into mind when investigating a dispute. I thought that was paramount in any pricing. Not to these guys, they just want their 3% (supposedly around $20million/month) without any hassle or customer support.

[Genesis]

There used to be disparate relationships between PayPal and the credit card companies. That is, with some types of credit card syou could reverse (charge back), and with others you could not.

This created MAJOR problems for people, as you can imagine. Some scam artists figured this out, would order things, "pay" with PayPal, reverse the charge, and abscond with the merchandise.

HUNDREDS of PayPal merchants got burned this way.

Many of them had their accounts locked up for nearly-interminable times during these disputes, and more than a few of them were blatently ripped off by "buyers".

Now, is the current system any "better"? Well, maybe.

(BTW, Amex may still permit reversals.... not sure on that one. American Express is a funny company....)

PayPal offers buyer's insurance. YOU DECLINED IT! You could have taken it, which would have allowed you to decline the item FOR ANY REASON and receive a refund (less the insurance cost, of course). Why is that offered? To cover the exact issue you ran into.

If the item was MISREPRESENTED, say the seller said "2002" and you got "2000", you'd have a claim for fraud, and I bet both PayPal and eBAY would have gotten involved.

But it appears he did not do that.

Therefore, you got EXACTLY what you negotiated for. You were, later, unhappy with the transaction, but that's not the seller's fault or responsibility.

I hate to be harsh here, but I don't see how you got "screwed".

Merchants have NO legal requirement to offer a right of return UNLESS they misrepresent something (that is, fraud is committed again.) YOU do not have the right to charge back a purchase willy-nilly either. Oh yes, people try it, all the time - but that not only doesn't make it right, it does not obligate the merchant to accept the chargeback.

I used to run into this all the time when I ran my internet company. We'd have people that would try this constantly - buy an account, use it for a month, then call, claim it never worked (or worked right) and reverse the charge. We won EVERY ONE of those contested charges, and we NEVER accepted them. Over the several years I ran the place we had this very scam (or some variant of it) attempted well over 100 times.

We had a 14-day "trial period" during which we would refund your money, no questions asked - and only once per person. Beyond that - nope. It was a clearly stated policy, and you had to SIGN an agreement indicating that you understood this policy and agreed to it. We had people sign up for an account, cancel on the 14th day, sign up for another one, try to cancel a second time, when it was refused by us they'd go to the credit card company and reverse the charge.

It got the point that I actually considered SUING a couple of these people - not for the $20, but to make an example out of them.

Merchant accounts are a two-edged sword. For card-not-present transactions merchant's options are SEVERELY limited in protecting themselves. PayPal has given them SOME protection (they would otherwise have NONE!) and at a reasonable price.

I don't particularly care for their new policy (just recently shoved down people's throats) and will probably cancel my PayPal account as a consequence. That means that if I want to eBAY something I have to take a check or money order, or send one.

But my issues are not with this particular part of the policy. They are with the fact that they did this to buyers, but STILL reserve the right to "lock up" anything you get via them for 180 days, including going into any other assets (bank accounts, etc) they can find, on the strength of "their" dispute resolution policy, along with a number of other procedural changes.

If they're going to treat the transaction as cash from the buyer's perspective, then it should be cash. End of discussion.

BTW, they DO disclose this in the "new" policy, in that they are the "merchant of record" for the transaction. That is the exact wording in their agreement.

[mddolson]

So why are you disatisfied with the Mares Abyss?
How much do you want for it?

Mike D

[domino22]

never used paypal but bought a zeagle ranger was a 2003 model but did not come with the inflator hose, read the small print. I thought that was part of the bc is this not the case?