A few words about the real DIR guys...

[malammon]

I just got back from cave country, and while I was there I spent some time at Extreme Exposure. For those who don't know, this is a dive shop in High Springs that is kinda like the GUE's home base. All of this business about the DIR army, bungeed wings of death, dir approved masks???, etc...., did not come from the guys down there. It came from kids on this board who should be spending more time in the water and less time creating garbage on this silly message board. My gear is not DIR, and my training is not GUE (NSS-CDS - where the GUE instructors first learned), and you know what, the hardcore DIR guys could care less. They did not think I was DIW or doomed because I run my inflator off my left post, or clip my SPG to my left shoulder ring. They thought 'hey, whatever works for you, see you in the caves'. I found these guys to be exceptionally forthcomming with information to anybody, open minded, friendly, and generally enthusiastic about diving. I encourage all of you who obsess over DIR either pro or con to make the trip, and meet the real people, and quit buying in to the crap on this board. I applaud the GUE for attempting to raise the bar for technical dive traing, it needed it. By the way, I chatted with a GUE 'celebrity' while he pushed He into his 125cf bailouts for his breather. The tanks were (heavens no!) OMS - PAINTED!!!. One more thing, EE is now a Aqual Lung dealer so be sure to check out thier selection of DIVE COMPUTERS while you are there. Sorry Pug.

[Cave Diver]

This has been my view as well, as I have stated often on this board.

Those that preach the loudest about DIR seem to be the ones that know the least about it.

I am far from an expert myself, but after meeting and talking with those that are, and taking the DIRF class, I have found that none of them display the "attitude" that has become so commonly associated with it.

Yes, there are a few notable exceptions. GI3 can come across as very abrasive, but as a whole, still provides a ton of good information.

It's rather amusing to see how little that those who argue so forcefully on both sides of the coin actually know about it...

[PA/NJdiver]

Malammom, you are 100% correct. This is the exact same thing I found out when I took my cave 1 class in December and my subsequent trip to cave country since then.

Stacey

[Dryglove]

That is pretty well the same experience that i have had with DIR divers and instructors.

[longraven]

Thanks for this post.

I agree that GUE should be applauded for raising the bar. While I am a new comer to DIR, I have been researching some of the training foundation associated with it since I began my scuba career with PADI ( I felt there was something missing). I needed more of a challenge and went on to wreck and nitrox only to find I wanted more.

In my search for better training, I kept coming back to GUE. I agree with some of the training philosophy and question other things behind DIR.

My main hesitation to begin my DIRF course was the attitude of some DIRF'ers that you might see in board posts on other forums like quest-unsubscribe@gue.com. It's all about "Stroke" this and "Stroke" that. A quote from recent posts (censored to be polite) like the one below from Mr. G. Irvine himself don't make the DIR diving training appealing or even approachable for some.

"Apparently, there are some real p****ies on this list who think that they can read what is on here, and then go attack GUE on Tec diver since they obviously can't take me on with anything but bull****. If you are one of those people, I want to know who you are so I can call you out. Every time one of you weenies does this, I am going to not only make an ass out of you, I am going to gore every ox you have and trash everything you sell, teach ,
or hold dear with perfect logic reasoning and facts that will make it clear how full of s&&t you are, and I am perfectly willing to do what it takes and take the time to do it. I hate p****ies with a passion."


I can only say that I'm not going to let the attitudes of a few hinder or delay what I want out of diving. The people here is S.D. have been very helpful and approachable. The instructors I've spoken with have also been very helpful and free flow with info. I have also found people on this forum very helpful, knowledgeable, and good hearted.

So when it comes to DIR, I am a rock and admit it with pride. All DIRF'ers were at one point in time in their diving career. So all that said, I'm very much excited about my upcoming DIRF class and Cave 1 course. It's also good to hear from all of you that you can't always believe what you read. I hope that as my training continues, I don't develop an unapproachable attitude. If I do, somebody shoot me.


Thanks again,
Annie

[WYDT]

malammon once bubbled...
I just got back from cave country, and while I was there I spent some time at Extreme Exposure. For those who don't know, this is a dive shop in High Springs that is kinda like the GUE's home base. All of this business about the DIR army, bungeed wings of death, dir approved masks???, etc...., did not come from the guys down there. It came from kids on this board who should be spending more time in the water and less time creating garbage on this silly message board. My gear is not DIR, and my training is not GUE (NSS-CDS - where the GUE instructors first learned), and you know what, the hardcore DIR guys could care less. They did not think I was DIW or doomed because I run my inflator off my left post, or clip my SPG to my left shoulder ring. They thought 'hey, whatever works for you, see you in the caves'. I found these guys to be exceptionally forthcomming with information to anybody, open minded, friendly, and generally enthusiastic about diving. I encourage all of you who obsess over DIR either pro or con to make the trip, and meet the real people, and quit buying in to the crap on this board. I applaud the GUE for attempting to raise the bar for technical dive traing, it needed it. By the way, I chatted with a GUE 'celebrity' while he pushed He into his 125cf bailouts for his breather. The tanks were (heavens no!) OMS - PAINTED!!!. One more thing, EE is now a Aqual Lung dealer so be sure to check out thier selection of DIVE COMPUTERS while you are there. Sorry Pug.

Yes, contrary to some people's opionions on the board DIR divers aren't Darth Vader/Nazi wanna be's.. haha...

Those who think DIR or GUE people are a bunch of Nazi's and run around telling people they are going to die are the ones who don't get what DIR is all about. Gear is a small part of the big picture.

I do guarantee you won't see any of those dive computers, "inflators on the left post" or spg's clipped off to a shoullder d-ring on any GUE/DIR divers. ;)

Also, no one said OMS tanks were a no-no... use what's best for the job. In that case I'm sure OMS tanks were being used due to their buoyancy characteristics with the rebreather.

[Cave Diver]

longraven once bubbled...
I hope that as my training continues, I don't develop an unapproachable attitude. If I do, somebody shoot me.


There is someone over in another thread who is claiming:
there's a new gunman in town, and his motto is: "one shot, one kill"...

So if you ever do need to be shot, mebbe we will just refer you over to him :D

And speaking of shots, judging from your profile pic, maybe you should submit a few shots of you to our Women of SCUBA Board Calendar (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24119) ;)

[Uncle Pug]

malammon once bubbled...
Sorry Pug.
I'm not sure what you are apologizing for... or why you are apologizing to me...

But for your peace of mind:

I forgive you... do not be filled with sorrow on my account... you have done no harm to me.

[SeaJay]

longraven once bubbled...
[B]
My main hesitation to begin my DIRF course was the attitude of some DIRF'ers that you might see in board posts on other forums like quest-unsubscribe@gue.com. It's all about "Stroke" this and "Stroke" that. A quote from recent posts (censored to be polite) like the one below from Mr. G. Irvine himself don't make the DIR diving training appealing or even approachable for some.

"Apparently, there are some real p****ies on this list who think that they can read what is on here, and then go attack GUE on Tec diver since they obviously can't take me on with anything but bull****. If you are one of those people, I want to know who you are so I can call you out...


<snip>

This, as you guys have found out, is an extreme "rightist" point of view, and not at all the common view in DIR diving.

What do you expect from GI3?? Your attitude changes when you 'roid rage, you know. :D

[Bob3]

I hope ... I don't develop an unapproachable attitude. If I do, somebody shoot me.
The DIR topic is one where its perfectly acceptable to shoot the messenger. Be careful not to bury the message along with the body though.
:tease:

[Genesis]

spouting - he IS involved with JJ and Halcyon, even if only "unofficially", and vice-versa when it comes to the whole "GUE" thing, is THE biggest problem that GUE and DIR has.

Irrespective of what people can try to say - that its not all "stroke this", and "pu$$y that", one rant like that from the FOUNDER and SPOKESMAN, and well, those lies get put to rest.

DIR is doomed to be a cult phenomena until GI3 subjects himself to the "Genesis of DIR" again, and ends up losing the OTHER half of his mind - at which point he willf all silent, and perhaps the value will be seen.

[Bob3]

POW!

Just like duck hunting, a minute after season opening, all **** breaks loose. ;)

[longraven]

SeaJay

Agreed, not all are of the same rightist group as I stated, "some DIRF'ers might..." I also stated that those people I have contacted or met in person have been great. Thanks for stating it more clearly.

I suppose that I unintentionally communicated in general terms when I wrote "some.” Restated, I would have said "some but not all.”

However, having said that, I didn't just choose that quote from G.I. because it was the only one. The comment was just one that was more recent and convenient. I'm sure if anyone has viewed the threads on the link posted, as well as other posts, you would see many known figureheads and unknowns posting the same type of commentary. I didn't mean to single one out.

I did not intend to offend anyone with generalities. My apology if this is the case.

Cave Diver---Not sure if you were being nice about the calendar comment, my guess is not. Clearly you see at lest one reason why I don't do them. Thanks for taking the time to check the pic though. I checked yours but there is just a big "X" there. Hope your not providing a target for "one shot one kill” or someone else. Maybe "scuberd" is our guy if you want to take the time to check his pic. Looks like he just came from the duck pond.

Bob3---You just winged me, but point taken...Just like a Maalox storm....;)

[Genesis]

that many of the DIRites claim that "oh its not like that".

But that claim is ignorant at best, and intentionally misleading at worst. Why? Because GI3 <IS> DIR and GUE, for all intents and purposes.

If the head of General Electric said "all <insert ethnic group> are <insert slur>", would you think that GE wasn't in some way responsible corporately for that screed? Sure you would. So would I. So should we both.

Why?

Because those who control a thing are responsible for how that thing is viewed in and by the public. It really is that simple.

Until GI3 and the others on the board of GUE "go away", or are forced to stop this garbage by the rest of the board (e.g. corporately told to "shut up" or else!) it is perfectly reasonable for the rest of the public to view DIR, GUE and all it stands for as being PRECISELY what GI3 screams about and on - because it is.

[Divesherpa]

Genesis once bubbled...

Until GI3 and the others on the board of GUE "go away", or are forced to stop this garbage by the rest of the board (e.g. corporately told to "shut up" or else!) it is perfectly reasonable for the rest of the public to view DIR, GUE and all it stands for as being PRECISELY what GI3 screams about and on - because it is.


I don't feel that it is fair to bring the Board of GUE in on this. Panos and JJ are great guys and I haven't seen or heard either of them bashing others. Panos is a great source of information and is very logical in his methodologies. GI3 is a different animal all together.

Cheers,
Sherpa (back from the tropics)

[Genesis]

GI3 is the "spokesman" of the entire GUE and DIR "thing."

Until and unless the board censures or removes him, thereby making it clear that he does NOT speak for either, thereby making him "just another diver" in relationship to GUE and DIR, it is not unfair at all to paint them with the brush that GI3 wields.

[JeffAustin]

The DIR divers I know and dive with are excellent; but if your impression of GUE and DIR diving is based on what you read on quest then yes, they( GUE & DIR zealots) sound pretty nasty. quest seems to be a no holds barred, rip you a new a$$hole if you don't agree with me kind of site. Don't let that scare you off from making the decision to dive DIR !!

[Genesis]

is an official organ of DIR and GUE, along with GI3.

It is officially sanctioned and linked off their web site.

It IS GUE.

If GUE doesn't like how Quest presents GUE and DIR, that is their issue to resolve. Since they have not resolved it, one thing is clear - they agree with what goes on there.

That is their call to make, and it is my call to judge their organization by how they present themselves there.

[LUBOLD8431]

Just like duck hunting, a minute after season opening, all **** breaks loose.

wow, that was unexpected and so Da*n funny!!! It kills me every time Genesis comes into a post and starts spouting off... I needed that tonite... Thanks for the humor...

LOL!!!!!

[longraven]

Genesis,

I think a nerve has been struck here. Ummm, maybe?

It is clear you are displeased with the overall GUE presentation of themselves to the public.

Lets not forget the original intent here. Malammon, cave diver and others were trying to pass on some positive info and it got all twisted as replies were posted (mine included), with all the negative stuff about some of the folks who may represent or misrepresent GUE or DIR.

Thanks for passing the good info on. It is a comfort to know your experience was positive. The quest or other posts will not deter me from seeking what I want out of the DIR training. There are also other reputable organizations to gain valuable training from as well.

Keep laughing,
Annie

[wb416]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...


It kills me every time Genesis comes into a post and starts spouting off...

Yes... but like any source of static or background noise, you learn to tune it out

[SeaJay]

Well, the truth comes out...

After all of the discussions, debate, and all of the "issues," the real DIR issues come out!

Very interesting.

Okay, let me make some things clear here...

1. DIR has affected my life personally in amazing ways. Because of the "no compramises" attitude, I have surrendered smoking and an unhealthy diet.

2. I can see that posts like that from a few "rightist" DIRites are deemed as offensive, and I can understand this point of view.

3. That said, there's a ton of great information there, and I can understand why some of those "rightist" DIRites are the way they are.

4. Unless you're a better diver than GI3, and hold more world records, it seems pointless to criticize him.

5. He certainly ain't doing anything for the positive image of DIR.

...So what to do about it? Well, if GI3 believes he's the world's best diver, then more power to him! I can see his point!

But I also agree that his "no compramises" posts are offensive to others, and that this gives DIR a bad name.

That said, what are we supposed to do... Compramise? So that other people who have compramised can feel accepted?

That said, I will reiterate that DIR is not GI3, and vice-versa. I, too, have found most DIRites to be very friendly, accomodating, and most of all, interested in FUN. I have not found the whole DIR "thing" to be offensive and harsh like people tend to believe. Sure, GI3 may be that way, but every experience that I've had with DIR has been otherwise.

...But I can understand Genesis' point here. Like it or not, GI3 is a spokesperson for DIR... And therefore, if he's "stirring the pot," then people will be offended.

One more point of interest... I've found that in almost every DIR/nonDIR debate, it's the nonDIR diver "starting it." I've found much more agressive speech from nonDIRites than from DIRites! Tha attitude expressed in this first post is most common... DIRites mostly say, "Dive what works for you..." While it's usually the nonDIRites who do the antagonizing...

[Aquamaniac]

malammon once bubbled...
................. It came from kids on this board who should be spending more time in the water and less time creating garbage on this silly message board. ....................

Can SOMEONE PLEASE show me where DIR advocates on THIS board have been anything less than helpful?

In my short time here, I dont think I have EVER seen a true DIR advocate say anything rude, disruptive, silly or rubbish.
If I am wrong, please show me.

I would also like to know why, If this board is so silly malammon, you bothered to post these comments here.

Thank you for your insite, Ill be sure to head down to Florida one day and see if i can meet some true DIR people.:rolleyes:

[Cave Diver]

longraven once bubbled...
Cave Diver---Not sure if you were being nice about the calendar comment, my guess is not. Clearly you see at lest one reason why I don't do them. Thanks for taking the time to check the pic though. I checked yours but there is just a big "X" there. Hope your not providing a target for "one shot one kill” or someone else. Maybe "scuberd" is our guy if you want to take the time to check his pic. Looks like he just came from the duck pond.


I was indeed being nice. I always thought the dark hair/light eyes combination to be rather striking.

I have been meaning to fix that "X", but on the other hand sometimes I like being a target. ;)

Now, back to our regularly scheduled rant.

[longraven]

CaveDiver,

Great, glad thats settled and thanks for the kind words.

Annie

[diveski01]

[i]Genesis once bubbled... [/B]

Genesis, Have you ever taken or even observed a DIRF class? Or do you just lurk about looking for any gleam of "negativity" that you can throw into a fan just to get attention? Shouldn't people decide for themselves if GUE/DIR is for them? You sound like everyone should listen only to you on this topic. Hmmm, doesn't that sound like the pot calling the kettle black??

IMHO GI3 is trying to save lives by cutting through a bunch of crap that seems to keep recurring on Quest. There is a HUGE volume of informative posts that far outnumber the occaisional and justified rants. He has seen first hand and heard about way too many divers losing their lives unnecessarily by making mistakes that could have been prevented by paying attention to details, situational awareness and buddy awareness all of which are the key fundamentals taught in, huh what a shocker, the GUE Fundamentals of DIR classes.

BTW the Quest list is a service for paid members, therefore volunatary supporters, of GUE. If anyone doesn't like GI3's demeanor, then simply do not read his posts. Or, you can filter through his choice of language and glean the point he is trying to make and learn something that just might save your life or the life of your buddy some day.

If people were saying crap about me on another site after quoting (or more likely misquoting) off of Quest, I'd certainly call them out.

[O-ring]

:D

[Dryglove]

O-ring once bubbled...
:D

Thats too good :D

[Genesis]

If GUE is unhappy with the perception they present to the world, coming from one of their founders, they are the ones to raise the issue. Not me.

I'm looking for or engendering "negativity"? I'm not the one running around calling people names and using profanity on a mailing list under the auspicies of a dive-training agency as one of its founders!

The simple fact of the matter is that if THIS is what GUE is about, and it clearly is from GI3s own statements that have gone without rebuke, rebuttal or apology by GUE, while he continues to sit in the position he holds, then it is perfectly fair for me, or anyone else, to judge them on that basis.

They can change that perception any time they'd like. They clearly are choosing not to.

Loved the graphic, but the Kool-Aid is the wrong flavor - its supposed to be "grape" :D

[raxafarian]

Let's start a petition to change DIR !!

[O-ring]

raxafarian once bubbled...
Let's start a petition to change DIR !!
We can call it DIRvers Union!

[boomx5]

When can I place my order for the first batch of bumper stickers?;)

[Genesis]

You guys are too much. :)

[wb416]

Perhaps a glimpse into why certain people act the way they do and make certain demands...

1991 Indian Springs Incident by GI3 (http://www.bayareadivers.net/wb416/downloads/Diving%20Accident%20at%20Indian%20Springs%201991%2 0written%20by%20GI3%2077th%20dive.txt)

1991 Indians Springs Incident by Bill Gavin (http://www.bayareadivers.net/wb416/downloads/diving%20accident%20at%20indian%20springs%201991%2 0written%20by%20bill%20g.txt)

Some lessons learned from 1991 Incident (http://www.bayareadivers.net/wb416/downloads/77th%20Dive%20Lessons%20learned.txt)

Perspective is everything...

[diveski01]

Genesis once bubbled...
The simple fact of the matter is that if THIS is what GUE is about, and it clearly is from GI3s own statements that have gone without rebuke, rebuttal or apology by GUE, while he continues to sit in the position he holds, then it is perfectly fair for me, or anyone else, to judge them on that basis.

You didn't bother to answer if you have any first hand knowledge regarding GUE and DIR training?? Are you forming your opinion based solely on GI3 and his personal style or have you taken more aspects into consideration?

I would just like to know where you are coming from and why you have developed your judgemental position regarding GUE and the DIR system. There's definitely much more to GUE than just GI3 and his colorful internet style of delivery.

Maybe someone should start a poll to see how many GUE members are really bothered by GI3's style? Think that would change him? But then, there's probably only a small subset of Quest members on this list, and an even smaller subset that would care enough to vote.

[SeaJay]

O-ring once bubbled...
:D

Hahahhahaaaa!!! That's the funniest thing I've seen in a while. You owe me a new keyboard. :D

And no, it wasn't Coke... I don't drink the stuff any more. It was "Supergreens," a killer concoction of pure water and mostly grasses, including wheat grass.

Great stuff... Very alkalizing. :D

I think that DIR should change the official drink to this stuff... No more Kool-Aid! Too much sugar, anyway... Not good for fat burning...

:D

Funny. I'm very flattered to have been made fun of. :D

[O-ring]

Funny. I'm very flattered to have been made fun of.
You should be...I don't make fun of just anyone! Oh wait...yeah I do.. :D

[diveski01]

longraven once bubbled...
I'm very much excited about my upcoming DIRF class and Cave 1 course. ...

Annie,

I learned SO MUCH in just a few dives last spring with DIR trained divers, then my DIRF class last fall was just phenomenal. A lot of divers that have been hesitant about taking a DIRF class have seen several class reports on this board that were very positive about their experiences with DIRF and GUE instructors and were encouraged to take the class. Hope yours is a positive experience for you as well. Sounds like you're adequately fired-up for it! If you feel inclined to do so, please post how it went.

[longraven]

diveski01 once bubbled...


Annie,

I learned SO MUCH in just a few dives last spring with DIR trained divers, then my DIRF class last fall was just phenomenal. A lot of divers that have been hesitant about taking a DIRF class have seen several class reports on this board that were very positive about their experiences with DIRF and GUE instructors and were encouraged to take the class. Hope yours is a positive experience for you as well. Sounds like you're adequately fired-up for it! If you feel inclined to do so, please post how it went.

I'm glad you had such a good experience with the class and the folks you dove with.

I am stoked about the class. I know it's going to be great. I know I will walk away with a world of knowlege and experience MHK is the instructor and I 've heard really good things about him. Plus! we'll be doing the class in Catalina. I will let the board know how it went.

Thanks
Annie

[detroit diver]

SeaJay once bubbled...


Hahahhahaaaa!!! That's the funniest thing I've seen in a while. You owe me a new keyboard. :D

And no, it wasn't Coke... I don't drink the stuff any more. It was "Supergreens," a killer concoction of pure water and mostly grasses, including wheat grass.

Great stuff... Very alkalizing. :D

I think that DIR should change the official drink to this stuff... No more Kool-Aid! Too much sugar, anyway... Not good for fat burning...

:D

Funny. I'm very flattered to have been made fun of. :D


The next thing you know, you'll be chewing your cud and farting methane. Sheesh....

[longraven]

detroit diver once bubbled...



The next thing you know, you'll be chewing your cud and farting methane. Sheesh....

A Green ASNER....(aka) A Spontaneous Nasal Eject Reaction:out: YUK!

[detroit diver]

Actually, lately I do believe he's been chewing on some kind of grass, and it isn't "wheat grass" if you know what I mean!!=-)

[Genesis]

That's not food.

That's what food EATS :)

[SeaJay]

Funny!

Good thing that wheat grass promotes thick skin, eh? LOL!

I am not completely innocent yet, though... I did have a ham and cheese sandwich today. That's un-veg for two reasons... Cheese, which is simply fermented and coagulated milk (which I shouldn't be eating, really) and dead flesh of an animal known to wallow in it's own fecal matter.

But the doc says to take it slow and work meat and dairy out of my system over time. I went with no animal product for the first week... I quit smoking, went veg, and committed to 5 liters of water a day all on the same day. I felt great by day three, when I should have been DYING for a smoke. What a great experience... It was nothing at all like what I'd expected. A week later, I visited the doc to talk to him about what I was feeling... And while he congratulated me on many counts, told me that I needed to "work up to" being a veg, and that it wasn't healthy to do it all at once.

...So for about two weeks now, I've been eating less animal products than usual, and much more greens. I crave fresh veggies (uncooked) like you wouldn't believe. It's wonderful!

...But I'm not crazy about having gone back to even a reduced meat intake. I can completely tell the difference in my meals now, when I eat a good steak or a burger or even if I just have some cheese on my spaghetti. A glass of milk stays with me for days... I can feel it in my gut, even if it's only 1%. Ice cream, my very favorite treat, makes me feel completely lethargic all day the next day. The funny thing is that this is nothing new... Meats and dairy does have that effect on people. I just never really knew any better. I thought it was "normal" to feel sleepy after a big meal. How wonderful it is to feel energized after a meal, instead of tired and sleepy!

I'm close to tellin' the doc to "stuff it" and go veg anyway. I'm really enjoying it...

Betcha my air consumption drops through the floor... :D

[kingprawn]

Aquamaniac once bubbled...


Can SOMEONE PLEASE show me where DIR advocates on THIS board have been anything less than helpful?

In my short time here, I dont think I have EVER seen a true DIR advocate say anything rude, disruptive, silly or rubbish.
If I am wrong, please show me.



Sorry to got back a few pages, but

Aquamaniac

Does this fit the bill?

I'm not sure how to do these links, but I'll try.


Lost Yxxxxx once bubbled...
The bodies were probably of those who admired him, and others like him, for his deep air "accomplishments". He lived through doing that stuff, they should've too, eh?

Crazy.

Mike
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8804&perpage=10&display=&pagenumber=2


That was an assult on a man who did nothing but dive and tell the rest of us how great it can be.

As many of you have said. Real DIR folks seem to have made peace with world. Others??????

[detroit diver]

kingprawn once bubbled...



Sorry to got back a few pages, but

Aquamaniac

Does this fit the bill?

I'm not sure how to do these links, but I'll try.


http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8804&perpage=10&display=&pagenumber=2


That was an assult on a man who did nothing but dive and tell the rest of us how great it can be.

As many of you have said. Real DIR folks seem to have made peace with world. Others??????

Man, you really had to dig for that one, didnt' you? If you actually read the thread, his post made a very valid point about deep air diving and the so-called leaders that advocate that practice.

In fact, here's from a couple of posts later:


I don't discount everything these guy have brought to diving. What I do have a problem with is their on going attitude that puts a lot people at unnecessary risk. They still beleive they can teach people to handle deep air reliably. I don't have a problem with their record breaking deep air dives, or their continuation to dive deep air. I don't care if anyone dives deep air, but don't tell people that narcosis and oxygen toxicity can be handled reliably. That is a lie. I will never respect them or those agencies for that reason alone.

Taken out of context, any post can be made to say whatever you want it to.

[kingprawn]

detroit diver once bubbled...


Man, you really had to dig for that one, didnt' you? If you actually read the thread, his post made a very valid point about deep air diving and the so-called leaders that advocate that practice.

No I did not have to dig for that. I just read it the other day. GG is a well respected diver in these parts. And if you read the thread, he is asulted without cause, for diving techiques that were the norm of the day. (Read Again. My quote was not taken out of context. The assault was out of context.)


But enough of this. It is good to hear that DIR does not require coolaid. Just an open mind.

[Mo2vation]

Really Kool. I don't know much about the guy... do you have any interesting Kool-Aid man trivia you'd like to share with the group....?

Ken

[raxafarian]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Funny!

.... dead flesh of an animal known to wallow in it's own fecal matter.



it's got a thick skin... don't sweat it.

Dead ol' cow is pretty good too. Right after Dead ol' deer!


If we were supposed to graze, we'd have a couple of stomachs like that dead ol' cow.;)

[SeaJay]

If we were meant to eat meat, then we'd have sharp teeth, fangs, and a short digestive tract.

Instead, our teeth have an equal number of nibbling and grinding teeth, similar to that of other primates who sustain on twigs, berries, and leaves. And our digestive tracts (an average of 28 feet in length for a full-grown adult human) hint that we are designed to be mostly, if not completely, herbovoric (vegetarian).

If we were designed to eat meat, we'd have long fangs, be able to run 50 mph, and we'd have sharp claws for catching prey.

But we don't.

Interesting theory on the multiple-stomach thing... I know you were just razzin' me, but with that thought process, I suppose a horse, with it's single stomach, should be eating meat? How 'bout Mountain Gorillas? Panda Bears? Koalas? Kangaroos? Rabbits?

[cat]

You want the long comparative anatomy lecture or the short one? :D

Ok, to keep this "short" I won't get into tooth adaptation or variations in predator feeding strategies, which could take several pages. I'll also limit things to the placental mammals (that's us) and leave the marsupials (Koalas and Roos) out of it.
Pandas have a digestive system that is very poorly adapted to their diet. They have to make up for it by eating rather a lot of bamboo in order to get the required calories.

Horses and rabbits both have large caeca (blind sacs). They are hindgut fermenters (yet another good reason not to stand to close to a horse's *** - fermentation produces some interesting odours and rather a lot of gas).

The plant material roughage that is fermented in the foregut of a ruminant (cow, deer, etc.) and converted very efficiently to protein BEFORE the proteolytic stomach gets fermented in the hindgut of many other animals, including horses and rabbits. This releases volatile fatty acids, which can be absorbed through the caecum wall. The fecal material tends to be rather high in protein generated by the protozoans and bacteria that do the fermenting (again, in a cow these get digested later - very efficient).
Horses end up losing out on this protein but they do benefit from the fatty acids (this is not as efficient as the ruminant "four stomach" system). A horse that's working needs a higher protein diet (grain mash) than a cow - and a goat can live on stuff that would starve most other animals.

Now for the disgusting bit. Rabbits have a system for taking advantage of the protein produced in their hindguts. It's called coprophagy. They produce two kinds of fecal pellets - a soft, high protien one that they reingest, and a drier "twice digested" one that has a much lower protein content.

Humans have no caecum left - the remnants are known as the appendix. Make of this what you will.

Most other primates, including the mountain gorilla (which has a caecum), do derive some of their protein from animal sources - bugs, slugs, small birds. An awful lot of supposedly "vegetarian" animals (including squirrels) will snag animal protein when it comes along, often in the form of insect larvae and eggs.

The colon's main function in humans is to reabsorb *water* (and a few electrolytes, etc) and to store undigested food temporarily. And ours is pretty unimpressive compared to those of the other great apes (who have fermentation chambers right before the colon). Absorption of nutrients is the primary function of the *small* intestine. Comparing gut anatomy of the other great apes leads to some interesting results (we have less total gut for our body mass and what we do have is more heavily weighted to the small intestine than that of other great apes). There's more on this if you want detail.

Not all vegetarian diets are alike - fruit requires a different digestive setup than grains, while a diet of grasses and other low-nutrient/high cellulose foods really requires some form of fermentation mechanism. Top of the vegetarian heap are foods like nuts which are high in both protein and fat.

I could go on, but the audience is probably asleep already. Just want to add a couple of things to think about:
1. the preferred diet of many great apes tends to be mighty high in low pH foods (fruit) - might want to compare this to the "alkaline" fad that's big right now (acid in the stomach helps protect against invading bacteria as well as activiating the enzymes needed for proper digestion of protiens)
2. before deciding to eat *just* like your ancestors did, you might want to consider how long they tended to live (and whether you like the idea of dining on insects).

Happy termite-munching! :D Cat (who apologizes to the other posters for the temporary dietary hijacking)

PS: whatever you do, don't eat like an orangutan - in the wild they consume (among other things) fruit from the genus Strychnos - the source for strychnine poison. (add your own Kool-Aid joke here)

[Cave Diver]

Very informative cat, and not boring at all!

[Cave Diver]

SeaJay once bubbled...
If we were meant to eat meat, then we'd have sharp teeth, fangs, and a short digestive tract.

If we were designed to eat meat, we'd have long fangs, be able to run 50 mph, and we'd have sharp claws for catching prey.


And if God didnt want us to eat animals, why did he make them so darn tasty?!?!

[Hoppy]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Funny!

<snip>
I am not completely innocent yet, though... I did have a ham and cheese sandwich today. That's un-veg for two reasons... Cheese, which is simply fermented and coagulated milk (which I shouldn't be eating, really) and dead flesh of an animal known to wallow in it's own fecal matter.

<snip>

:D

As an ex keeper of pigs, I have to defend this incorrect comment. :D

Pigs will not lie in their own fecal matter, in fact they will use the area furthest away from their bed area for a "toilet area"

I think it's fair to say that they are probably the cleanest "food" animal in that respect.

Other than that great thread folks, very informative. I shall treat my digestive tract with more respect now thanks to Cat.:)

And yes I did used to eat them before anyone asks, at least I know what went into them (therefore into me) and they lived with the sun on their backs unlike most mass produced pork.

Hoppy
:)

[O-ring]

Mo2vation once bubbled...
Really Kool. I don't know much about the guy... do you have any interesting Kool-Aid man trivia you'd like to share with the group....?

Ken
...you found it! I just stole it...hehe. That is a sweet avatar BTW...

...and once again I am reminded why I have a crush on Cat... :tease:

[Genesis]

If we were meant to eat meat, then we'd have sharp teeth, fangs, and a short digestive tract.

Instead, our teeth have an equal number of nibbling and grinding teeth, similar to that of other primates who sustain on twigs, berries, and leaves. And our digestive tracts (an average of 28 feet in length for a full-grown adult human) hint that we are designed to be mostly, if not completely, herbovoric (vegetarian).

If we were designed to eat meat, we'd have long fangs, be able to run 50 mph, and we'd have sharp claws for catching prey.

But we don't.


Me thinks you need to talk to some real physicians SeaJay, rather than religious zealots, er, DIR 'diving experts'. :)

Our digestive tract is of a medium length. It is not very short, as are those of dogs, for example, which are designed to live almost exclusively on animal protein. It is also not very long, as is a cow or horse's, which are designed to live almost exclusively on vegetative material.

We have a vestigal appendix, which speaks to a significant amount of our diet coming from animal protein, as that organ's original purpose was clearly to assist in the digestion of vegetative matter.

Our teeth are combinatorial. We have incisors, intended to rip and tear animal flesh - not necessary to grind plant matter. We also have molars, intended to grind plant matter, and of no use in ripping animal flesh.

If you want to stop the "surge and drag" routine, stop tampering with your blood sugar! That's what is causing it.

How do you do that, keep your BMI in a healthy range, and avoid diabetes and such at the same time?

Here 'ya go:

1. Animal protein needs to make up a significant part of your diet. Perhaps 30% or so. Eggs, cheese, meat, chicken, and cold-water fish in particular. Note that all of these have some animal fats in them - they're perfectly ok to eat. We're DESIGNED to eat this stuff!

2. Stay away from high glycemic vegetables and starches in particular. That would include potatoes among the worst of the sinners. (Yes, this includes french fries :) ) Pastas and such are SPARING, if at all (same reason.) If you want bread, eat only whole-wheat (NOT "wheat bread" from the store - WHOLE wheat.) Consider refined flour and what contains it junk food.

3. In addition, eat NO "artificial fats" (margarines, etc); nothing hydrogenated. This will be difficult; if you want "butter", eat BUTTER! The reason is that the "artificial" fats - the hydrogenated ones - are of questionable bioavailability without causing problems with your bad/good chloresterol balance, etc.

4. Finally, no refined sugar. At all.

The balance of your diet is vegetables, fruits and nuts.

Do that and you'll find that the "swings" go away. You'll also be eating pretty close to the balance that our digestive system was designed for, and avoiding "engineered" foods that our digestive system couldn't have been designed for (since they are not naturally-occurring!)

A vegetarian diet gets rid of the blood sugar swings, but also removes an important source of fats (and fats ARE NOT evil - they are a perfectly legitimate energy source and, absent easy-availability glucose sources such as refined sugar, cause no trouble), chloresterol (necessary for life - what the "low cholesterol" zealots don't tell you), proteins and omega-3 fatty acids, which are simply unavailable from most foods other than coldwater fish.

You'll also enjoy maintaining this diet and won't have to play the "health food store" games, along with their prices.

If you doubt this approach before you start have your blood worked up, eat this way for six to eight weeks, then have your blood worked up again. If you don't like the triglyceride and LDL/HDL changes, along with your blood sugar stability, following this for six weeks I'll be shocked.

Been there, done that, have the T-shirt and am missing 20 lbs (happily) as a consequence.

[RavenC]

Cave Diver once bubbled...


And if God didnt want us to eat animals, why did he make them so darn tasty?!?!

Or given us the means to cook them up.

Cat, as always you have WOWed me. Great bit of information and not at all boring.

With all do respect the SJ, everyone must keep healthy eatting in context. God did give me (humans) long nails and some canine teeth for tearing into meat but he also made me (humans) on the intellectual level that allows me to prepare my food in an nonanimalistic way and gave me the ability to not have to chase my food down in a field without a gun/bow/credit card/ checkbook. ;)

I will support individuals for their own personal preferences, you of all people know that, but don't forget to stay healthy and eat right. When you cut out too much of what you relied on for certain vitamins and proteins for the majority of your life, you must remember to replenish the supply. You can't even cut out bad things without your body going WOOW. Just remember to take care of yourself and keep educating yourself. R

And Cat stay close to keep it on tract. :D

[malammon]

I think we finally found a subject on which we can agree with Genesis. Somebody should also point out the position of our eyes on our heads to Mr. Jay. Hunters have forward looking eyes, cows, etc... do not.

By the way, as I first stated I'm not a DIR guy, I just went there for the gas, and ended up hanging out with a great bunch of divers.

[chickdiver]

Plants are what FOOD eats.

Chica- DIR diver and carnivore

[SeaJay]

Cave Diver once bubbled...


And if God didnt want us to eat animals, why did he make them so darn tasty?!?!

Heheheee... Funny.

What you're sensing there, when you crave meat (and enjoy the pleasurable sensations when you consume) isn't a positive thing. It's your body craving more of what causes those chemical reactions which bring you pleasure. It's got nothing to do with what's good and healthy for your body.

Similarly, if God didn't want us to smoke dope, then why did he make it so darn fun?

Okay, maybe that analogy is pretty harsh.

If God didn't want us to smoke tobacco, then why did he make it so darn addictive?

Still too harsh? Okay...

If God didn't want us to be fat, then why do we crave fats and sugars only?

What your body craves isn't "what's good" for it... What your body craves is whatever you've been feeding it... Whatever you're addicted to... And yes, that can be fat or meat or dairy... Or tobacco or cocaine.

I love tobacco. I love it so much that I seriously considered continuing to use it and sacrifice my whole standard of living just so that I could continue using tobacco. Similarly, I've seen people literally on the edge of death from tobacco use light up and continue, unable to stop. Of course, now that I've given it up, I do not miss the stuff. I do not crave. I do not care if someone else uses tobacco, and I am not running around trying to figure out how to supress my next "fix." I simply don't crave the stuff any longer. Sure, it took a while before I felt that way, but now I do NOT feel cheated or like I'm "missing" something. In fact, I feel quite the opposite... I feel like I've gained my freedom from it. I will not be the abusive "reformed smoker" and beat up on other smokers... I couldn't stand that when I was a smoker, and I won't stand for it now... But I feel I'm much better off today than I was as a smoker, and encourage others to take the same path.

In a much smaller and less threatening way, I encourage people to NOT simply listen to every crave their body tells them, and instead do some research on what's good for them. Research what is accepted as the "right" meal, by those who know. Learn what the correct proportions are. If you feel that meat and dairy should be avoided completely, then make that committment to yourself and do it. You'll be floored to find that not only do you not miss animal product, but that you feel that you've gained something by cutting those things out.

Personally, my research on this subject (not unlike the research I did on DIR) has shown me that animal products of whatever kind... Eggs, meat, dairy... Can be consumed in small quantity, but that our bodies aren't designed to carry the high loads of animal product and sugar that we feed it in our culture. Common sense tells us that all of the dietary-affected diseases (high cholesterol, obesity, diabetes, heart disease) have not always been such a big killer in humans... Else we would have developed by now a natural resistance to these diseases. Thus, I invite you to question your diet... In fact, question how we as Americans eat on a regular basis. Compare and contrast our dietary habits with those of other societies. I suspect that you will find what I did... That in societies where the consumption of animal products are reduced, the general state of health is improved, even with a lowered standard of health care. Ditto for fatty foods and foods high in sugar and acids.

...But don't believe me for it... Do your own research. Find out for yourself. Then make the committments that you want to make and stick by them. You'll be surprised to find that you AREN'T "giving up" things, but rather, gaining health, happiness, and the freedom from those products which we currently consume in such quantities as to be addictive.

Sure... At first, I wasn't excited about the concept of not eating an omlette for breakfast, and instead eating (gasp!) raw broccoli. And about once a month, I still allow myself to have a three-egg cheese omlette. But there's a huge difference in the way I feel after the consumption of one of those, vs. the broccoli... And it's not a positive one. Today, I crave the broccoli, even if that sounds bizarre to you. I no longer look at a steak and think, "mouth watering," I look at a steak and see it for what it really is... The sliced and burned ass of a (flatulent) animal. Sure, I still allow myself to have a bit now and then... But that's on it's way out. I'm simply not much of a fan of the stuff any longer... Just like I'm no longer much of a fan of tobacco.

Make your own decision, you guys. I did. I did about DIR, only after I'd experienced it and read about it and tried it and seen it with my own eyes. Once I established that it was a better way (which took a while for me) then I had to establish that I would be willing to do the "tough stuff" to be DIR... I had to convince myself that I could do it, I had to convince myself that I was willing to do it, and I had to convince myself that it would be worth doing. That took a while, and included a lot of self-evaluation and thought which I believe is the real reason why people are so much against DIR. They don't want to have to go through this apparently painful process of self-evaluation and the "reality check" that it includes, and so they simply stand on the sidelines and protest, rather than check it out for themselves. I believe it's borne of fear as to what they might find.

Once I was willing to make that committment to truly assess myself, I found that there were a lot of things that I didn't like about what I was seeing... And that was hard to take. The pinnacle of this was my 45-minute "stare into the water" at the quarry at DIR-F... Much more self-assessment was going on there than anyone will ever really know... And I wasn't liking what I was seeing. I could choose to ignore the truth, or I could discount it all and simply decide that none of this was "worth" a self-assessment. But if I wanted to improve, I needed an honest self-assessment... And if I needed an honest self-assessment, then I needed to listen to the truth... And if I needed to listen to the truth, it was going to hurt, 'cause it wasn't good.

Walking away from that dock and back up to MHK and Andrew, I only could think of one thing, and I said it aloud... "Courage is not the absence of fear... Courage is persistence in the face of fear." I don't know where that came from... Call it an inspired thought, perhaps; I dunno... I sorta made it up on the spot after all that I'd mulled over in my mind. It was simply too applicable and overwhelming to ignore, and I said it aloud.

So I invite y'all to be courageous and do a radical self-assessment. If you truly believe that meat is good for you, then by all means, eat lots of meat. I'm not going to try to convince you of one particular lifestyle. Instead, I invite you to have the guts to look at your life without blinders or rose-colored glasses on. Take a real, hard look. If you have questions about your diet, then spend the time and do some research. Figure out what "would be best for you if..." and then have the guts to decide that you're going to give yourself exactly that.

For me, I assessed that I wanted to dive like these guys. I wanted their skills and their abilities. I wanted to be a better diver. Did I "go DIR?" Well, I suppose I did, but it had nothing to do with the doctorines or ideals or the "Kool-Aid." It had to do with the fact that I was looking for better skills, and a better style of diving, 'cause I could see the shortcomings in what I'd been taught so far. When I honestly assessed this style of diving, I found it more desireable that the "standard" way. It took me about three weeks to decide that I'd give those skills to myself. At that moment, I suppose it can be said that I "went DIR." I don't care what you label it... I simply want to dive better. And my mind is still open to all. If someone can show me a better way, then I will listen... Just as I did with GUE.

...But that's not all that happened to me when I "went DIR." I found out that I could do anything I asked myself to do. I found out that I really was capable of giving myself the "good stuff." Suddenly, I began to question... "Then why do I smoke? I KNOW it's no good for me! If I can simply decide to be DIR, then why don't I simply decide to give up smoking?" Of course, it was spurred by GUE's intolerance toward tobacco, and it helped that someone said to me, "If you wanna improve yourself through us, you need to give up what is doing you harm." Then it was, "Wow, I can do this... I have done this... I'm also going to choose a better diet... A better major... A higher standard..."

So what's the bottom line? Well... No doubt I will be criticized by those people who have never had the pleasure of the "Holy smokes, I can" thought process for themselves. It doesn't matter to me, really. Am I promoting DIR? No. Am I promoting a vegan lifestyle? No. Am I promoting "no smoking?" No. But I will stand in the bleachers and cheer anyone on who makes a decision to courageously commit themselves to a difficult change. I could be an advocate for any of the things that I've listed, and certainly some of those groups of people will no doubt use my successes as examples to promote their ideals. However, I would simply like to promote what I personally found that day by the water... Courage. Have the courage to check "it" out for yourself, whatever "it" is. Does DIR seem important to you? Are you thinking about it a lot? Can't explain why? Have the courage to get out from behind your computer and check it out for yourself. Have the courage to try it. Have the courage to tell GUE to "screw off" if you don't like it. Just have the courage!

Have the courage to find out what your diet should be. Have the courage to address your bad habits. Have the courage to face those things that, deep down inside, really bother you. Research. Find out the truth. Then have the courage to face the truth and make the decision that you no longer want to live day to day, foolin' yourself into thinking that "it's okay."

For me, it meant turning away from being a "guy who dives" and turning into a "diver." For me, it also meant giving up tobacco use. It also meant a change in diet... In fact, I'm still changing my diet... Remember, doc said to "phase out," not "dump it altogether."

And "the big picture" is this... Whatever I've chosen to work on or change or do differently... I simply live my life now more "aligned" with what I feel is "right." My ideals are now much more closely related to what is reality than they were before. And that makes me a very happy person. Happy and healthy and fitter and energized and alkalized and very DIR.

...And I can understand how GI3 would be so passionate and uncompramising. I can relate.

[O-ring]

It makes me happy...I also love ice cream...it too makes me happy.

[SeaJay]

Genesis once bubbled...


Me thinks you need to talk to some real physicians SeaJay, rather than religious zealots, er, DIR 'diving experts'. :)


Oh, I have, Gen.

Not one DIRite told me to "go veg." Andrew G. is a veg, and that may have inadvertently served as an example, but if you remember my writeup, we very much made fun of each other about it... All in good humor. He did not tell me to go veg. That was my own decision.

And of course, the first thing I did was talk to a physician about it. Next I did the research. This had nothing to do with DIRites.



1. Animal protein needs to make up a significant part of your diet. Perhaps 30% or so. Eggs, cheese, meat, chicken, and cold-water fish in particular. Note that all of these have some animal fats in them - they're perfectly ok to eat. We're DESIGNED to eat this stuff!


That's pretty much where I am now... During my phase-out. Well, maybe I'm at 20% animal product. My point is that this is a huge change in the 80% animal product that I was consuming previously.



2. Stay away from high glycemic vegetables and starches in particular. That would include potatoes among the worst of the sinners. (Yes, this includes french fries :) ) Pastas and such are SPARING, if at all (same reason.) If you want bread, eat only whole-wheat (NOT "wheat bread" from the store - WHOLE wheat.) Consider refined flour and what contains it junk food.


I couldn't agree more.



3. In addition, eat NO "artificial fats" (margarines, etc); nothing hydrogenated. This will be difficult; if you want "butter", eat BUTTER! The reason is that the "artificial" fats - the hydrogenated ones - are of questionable bioavailability without causing problems with your bad/good chloresterol balance, etc.


Again, agreed. Don't even talk to me about Nutrasweet. :D



4. Finally, no refined sugar. At all.


Hmmmm... Perhaps this has to do with your diabetic reference, but I've found that some people's bodies are more tolerant of refined sugars than others.

I make it a point to reduced my sugar intake considerably, but have not completely cut it out from my diet. I believe that refined sugar (for that matter, most sugar) is burned in place of long-burn fuels, and thus, in a desire to promote a lower body fat ratio, have chosen a lower sugar diet.



The balance of your diet is vegetables, fruits and nuts.

Do that and you'll find that the "swings" go away. You'll also be eating pretty close to the balance that our digestive system was designed for, and avoiding "engineered" foods that our digestive system couldn't have been designed for (since they are not naturally-occurring!)


Again, I couldn't agree more. Don't forget that the best vegs, fruits, and nuts are of the uncooked variety. :)



You'll also enjoy maintaining this diet and won't have to play the "health food store" games, along with their prices.

If you doubt this approach before you start have your blood worked up, eat this way for six to eight weeks, then have your blood worked up again. If you don't like the triglyceride and LDL/HDL changes, along with your blood sugar stability, following this for six weeks I'll be shocked.

Been there, done that, have the T-shirt and am missing 20 lbs (happily) as a consequence.

I'm with ya, on this one, Gen...

[JamieZ]

I think O-ring hit it right on the nail head. ICECREAM

[SeaJay]

O-ring once bubbled...
It makes me happy...I also love ice cream...it too makes me happy.

Oh, me too. Tobacco made me happy as well.

Not that there's a real comparison... I'm just trying to make the point that just because you enjoy it doesn't make it "okay" or even "desireable."

I have found that as I've filled my body with the better stuff, my craves for tobacco, ice cream, and meat has subsided. Like Gen has pointed out, not the absence of these things, but rather, a significant change from what the "norm" is in our culture. 20% to 30% seems like a healthy balance to me... Although I am on the downswing, and have full intentions of trying a diet devoid of those things... True "veg." I'll let you know how it goes...

[WreckWriter]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

First off... I keep seeing a Sponge Bob avatar in your future.

I'm glad I'm not the only one......

WW

[chickdiver]

GI3 is not anywhere close to a vegetarian, believe me.

[Cave Diver]

SeaJay once bubbled...


Heheheee... Funny.

What you're sensing there, when you crave meat (and enjoy the pleasurable sensations when you consume) isn't a positive thing. It's your body craving more of what causes those chemical reactions which bring you pleasure. It's got nothing to do with what's good and healthy for your body.


Guess you think the same about sex too huh? The cravings aint a positive thing, it's just your bodies craving to perpetuate the species, brought on by the endorphines that bring you pleasure?:D

[Genesis]

Personally, my research on this subject (not unlike the research I did on DIR) has shown me that animal products of whatever kind... Eggs, meat, dairy... Can be consumed in small quantity, but that our bodies aren't designed to carry the high loads of animal product and sugar that we feed it in our culture. Common sense tells us that all of the dietary-affected diseases (high cholesterol, obesity, diabetes, heart disease) have not always been such a big killer in humans... Else we would have developed by now a natural resistance to these diseases. Thus, I invite you to question your diet... In fact, question how we as Americans eat on a regular basis. Compare and contrast our dietary habits with those of other societies. I suspect that you will find what I did... That in societies where the consumption of animal products are reduced, the general state of health is improved, even with a lowered standard of health care. Ditto for fatty foods and foods high in sugar and acids.


There's no way you were consuming 80% of your calories from meats and fats.

No way.

You eat a hamburger on a bun, you are consuming about half the calories in the BUN! The bun is made of the "bad stuff" - refined flour - and that is an extremely-high-glycemic index food.

Bing - there goes the sugar in your blood, your pancreas must produce insulin to control it. But nothing with that had to do with the MEAT on the bun at all.

In fact, the protein in the meat is the only good part of that sandwich!

Worse, since you took in the sugar (or things easily converted to it - high-glycemic-index things such as the bun) at the same time as the animal fat, your body doesn't have to CONSUME any of the fat, since it has more than enough immediately-available glucose to run your biological processes on. The result is that it gets stored - and you GET fat.

Fats are NOT bad. In fact, animal and plant fats are NECESSARY to your health. Cut them all out, you will have problems. Your digestive system is simply not designed for that load, and fats and oils are necessary for good health. (So is cholesterol, although you won't hear a doctor tell you that - it is an ESSENTIAL component of your biology!)

The entire "downer/upper" thing is due to sugar swings and the production of insulin necessary to balance it. If you end up insulin resistent as a consequence of the insults you serve up to your body continually in this manner, we call that Type II diabetes.

If you want to model your intake after what man as an animal has historically (last million years, not counting the last 100!) eaten, and what your digestive system is set up for, this is what you will eat:

Animal protein - which I count as meat, poultry and fish (both flesh and fats) - about 30% of your caloric intake, with a specific emphasis on insuring Omega-3 fatty acids are present at least once a week (cold-water fish such as salmon)

Animal byproducts, including eggs, cheese, butter, milk (if you care for it - I don't) etc - about 10-20% of your caloric intake.

That is, about half of your total caloric intake from animal-related protein and fats, and roughly half or a bit more of that DIRECTLY from animal flesh.

The balance from vegetables, fruits, nuts and plant oils, with special care to be aware of vegetables high on the glycemic index (e.g. potatoes.) Most fruits are very high on the glycemic index, but they provide nutrients in the balance and tend to actually be less harmful than high-glycemic-index veggies. So eat the orange, but keep it reasonable (one orange, not 10!)

NO refined sugar or flour products, to the best of your ability. No cookies, cakes, sugar in your coffee (sucralose if you need sweetener, and then only a bit) or other sugar load. No white or "wheat" bread; if you want bread, whole wheat is acceptable, but white is not.

The problem is NOT the animal products SeaJay. That's a common myth that is often repeated by dieticians, but they are ignoring the mechanical and biological design of the human body. We are built to hunt and there is only one reason to do that - to consume animal protein. Our eyes have binocular vision which is a serious impediment to avoiding predators (you can't see out the back of your head!) but a NEED for effective hunting. When you join that with the design of our hands and teeth, along with our digestive tract, its obvious what ought to be going in the pie-hole - and it ain't pies.

The growth of diet-related diseases (specifically, diabetes, heart-disease, etc) can be EXACTLY correlated with the rise of refined flour and sugar and their inclusion in our diet in outrageous doses.

The average American consumes anywhere from 20-50% of his or her calories daily from refined sugar and flour products.

You simply can't do that.

Your body is optimally designed to handle a diet moderately-high in animal-related proteins and fats with low high-glycemic vegetative matter and some fruits for essential nutrients making up the balance.

It is almost impossible to eat the nutrient load you need to be healthy on a vegetative diet.

A "typical" day for me starts with a ham, cheese and mushroom omelette, a light lunch (perhaps a hamburger patty, hot dog or bratworst - but no bun) and ends with a chicken stir-fry (full of veggies such as cabbage, sweet peppers, celery, broccoli, etc) or broiled salmon. If you want a steak, go ahead and have it - but make up some vegetables stir-fried in olive oil instead of the baked potato to eat with it, so you get the vegetables you need in your diet. If I have coffee in the morning its one cup, with sucralose (no sugar.) For a snack I might have a couple slices of cheese, and I'll typically eat an orange at some time during the day as well. For beverages I usually drink carbonated water flavored with lemon juice - no added sugar.

Eat like that and you will find that your weight remains where it should, your energy level remains constant through the day, you feel better and by any objective measure (e.g. blood pressure, trigliceride levers, cholesterol levels, etc) is FAR better than the "average" American Diet.

Occasionally I'll "cheat" and have a cookie (one) or a hot dog on a bun. But that's a "once in a while" thing - not daily.

I changed from the "typical American diet" to this and promptly (over six months or so) lost 20 lbs, and saw my energy level, subjectively, skyrocket.

Try it - its not only healthy but you'll love it - you'll never be hungry, your energy level will remain stable through the day, and you'll find that your general health improves by both objective and subjective measures.

You don't need to cram vitamins to make up for what you don't eat doing it this way either.

Most of the folks pushing this-or-that way of eating are drinking some form of Kool Aid.

[detroit diver]

Sounds a lot like the Adkins diet that I'm on.

[Genesis]

Atkins preaches almost NO carbs, at least initially.

That probably won't kill you, but its not necessary. You also will have some serious problems actually keeping to that diet for any length of time.

I understand that his view of "maintenance" looks roughly like how I eat, but the rest is really just a way to lose weight more quickly by ditching convertable carbohydrates and simple sugars, thereby FORCING your body to burn fat exclusively.

I'm sure that works - biologically it almost has to - but staying in that mode can't be good long-term.

Then again, his "maintenance" idea isn't radical at all. In fact, it looks a LOT like how the FDA is considering refining the "food pyramid" that we all learned.

As it turns out, its not really a very good model to follow, as all those breads and grains, in the refined form we eat them, are not good for you. In terms of biological load you may as well be eating pure sugar - they convert almost as quickly to glucose in the bloodstream!

[O-ring]

Since you cats know so much about nutrition, how bad are Lean Cuisines and other frozen "diet/low cal" meals?

[detroit diver]

It's been about 2 years now. I go off of it on occasion (vacations, birthday parties, etc), but it's very easy for me to get back on to it.

My energy level is much higher than before the diet. And when I go off of it, I feel like crap. Stiff, draggy, lethargic. Within 48 hours of getting back on, all of the rough spots are gone.

[Genesis]

If you get the sugars and refined "wheat-like" products out of your diet, your energy level will greatly improve, because the "spikes" will go away.

You'll also find sustainable body mass and similar other health benefits.

I don't think Atkins can take credit for this one though. He can for his "induction" stuff, where you eat basically NOTHING except animal protein and fat, but not for the "maintenance" regime - which is really, at the bottom line, much more like humans ate 200 years ago than anything else.

Call it the "Pilgrim" diet if you want to be accurate, 'cause it pretty much is :)

[longraven]

O-ring once bubbled...
Since you cats know so much about nutrition, how bad are Lean Cuisines and other frozen "diet/low cal" meals?

Hey, Big O,

Make sure you check the sodium content on any of the prepackaged frozen foods. It is usually pretty high and used as a preservative.

I am using EAS products along with a high protein "life style". I hate to use diet because of the implications. For me it is more of a nutritional life style (my way of switching my brain matter to a different thinking pattern). I limit carb intake after 3:00 p.m. PST. A trainer once told me "What do you need a huge plate of pasta at 6 p.m. for; you are just going to sleep in a few hours, not run a marathon.” Made sense to me.


Annie

[SeaJay]

Cave Diver once bubbled...


Guess you think the same about sex too huh? The cravings aint a positive thing, it's just your bodies craving to perpetuate the species, brought on by the endorphines that bring you pleasure?:D

Of course not. I love sex. Sex is great stuff...

But we're talking CONSUMPTION here, not physical activity...

[SeaJay]

Genesis once bubbled...


There's no way you were consuming 80% of your calories from meats and fats.

No way.


I'm not sure. But that's not what I said.

I said that 80% of what I was eating was animal product... Meats, cheese, dairy... I ate very little grains and veg, and almost never any fruit.



You eat a hamburger on a bun, you are consuming about half the calories in the BUN! The bun is made of the "bad stuff" - refined flour - and that is an extremely-high-glycemic index food.


Well, that's a popular thought process right now in the world of nutrition... Believe what you want. Why not simply go have a blood test done before and after eating a meal? Eat something that's meat-only and see what your blood looks like afterwards. Then do the same with "healthy" grains and see what happens.



The problem is NOT the animal products SeaJay. That's a common myth that is often repeated by dieticians, but they are ignoring the mechanical and biological design of the human body.


C'mon, man... They're all wrong... And you're right, hunh? ;)



We are built to hunt and there is only one reason to do that - to consume animal protein. Our eyes have binocular vision which is a serious impediment to avoiding predators (you can't see out the back of your head!) but a NEED for effective hunting. When you join that with the design of our hands and teeth, along with our digestive tract, its obvious what ought to be going in the pie-hole - and it ain't pies.


Yes, and I agreed that what's sounding like a healthy diet is 20% animal product. You maintain that it was 30%... Whatever. Okay, 25%.

There's still no question that today's American culture has us much more involved with animal product than 25%.



The growth of diet-related diseases (specifically, diabetes, heart-disease, etc) can be EXACTLY correlated with the rise of refined flour and sugar and their inclusion in our diet in outrageous doses.

...And so can the amount of processing in our foods, the number of growth hormones used on bulls, cows, pigs, and chickens...

I'm not saying that sugars are good... In fact, that's not what I've been taught at all. But before you go and say that it's all to do with SUGAR and then try to convince me that I said that "it's all to do with MEAT," think again. That's not at all what I said.

What I said was that a dietary change was in order... And that it involved much more greens and much less animal. Enough said.



It is almost impossible to eat the nutrient load you need to be healthy on a vegetative diet.


False. Show me your source of information.



Try it - its not only healthy but you'll love it - you'll never be hungry, your energy level will remain stable through the day, and you'll find that your general health improves by both objective and subjective measures.




Most of the folks pushing this-or-that way of eating are drinking some form of Kool Aid.

Hm. And you're not pushing?

[Genesis]

There's still no question that today's American culture has us much more involved with animal product than 25%.


"Animal product" is unfairly restrictive; if you count dairy and egg-related products then its a fair count, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I bet you'll find that the average American Diet contains about HALF its calories in either refined, added sugars or refined wheat and other grain products - which barely qualify as "grain" any more from a biological standpoint. Consider the average soda - 200 calories. Drink three of 'em and that's 600 calories for the sodas alone - or roughly one third of your total caloric intake that you should be eating! Add to that a bowl of sugar-added cereal, a couple cups of coffee with cream and sugar, and a snickers bar and you're easily at half of your recommended caloric intake, all from sugars. Now have a baked potato with your dinner (almost directly convertable to glucose) and a couple of pieces of refined bread throughout the day (ditto) and you're pushing it even higher.

Its like calling "potatoes" vegetables. Technically accurate, but not the same thing as "good for your roughage", 'cause they're not. You may as well be eating sugar of nearly equal mass in terms of its biological effect.

Alfalfa sprouts, if they taste good, are cool.

Tell me how you get Omega-3 fatty acids from a vegetarian diet. Their place in a healthy diet is pretty-firmly established.

The problems with the "food pyramid" are beginning to be recognized and are resulting in changed recommendations. Its long past time. The recognition that "grains" are not all good is really pizzing off the food manufacturers, who are going BANANAS - I used to work in that biz on the market research side, and still have some friends in that line of work - the cereal and grains folks, in particular, are quite concerned about what appears to be a fairly significant shift in consumption (in the wrong direction for them) just as are the soda makers (who are unhappy about these conclusions as well)

Replace the high-glycemic starches and sugars with vegetables, and leave the animal products alone in the diet. I would argue that this is far better for you and more closely models how our digestive system is designed to function than cutting out the animal products, leaving the sugars and starches alone, and replacing the ANIMAL PRODUCTS with the veggies.

The latter may be a "vegetarian" diet, but I don't believe its good for you.

But heh, that's just me.

[SeaJay]

Genesis once bubbled...


"Animal product" is unfairly restrictive; if you count dairy and egg-related products then its a fair count, but there's nothing wrong with that.


Oh yes... Anything that comes from animals.




Tell me how you get Omega-3 fatty acids from a vegetarian diet. Their place in a healthy diet is pretty-firmly established.


Well, I thought we established that 25% of the diet should be animal... But that I was considering taking it further. I swear, Gen, some days I think you're just arguing with yourself. :D (Okay, I'm just messin' with ya...)



Replace the high-glycemic starches and sugars with vegetables, and leave the animal products alone in the diet.


Well, I don't think that would be the 25% animal that you and I have agreed on... I think that if we were to cut out high-glycemic starches and sugars we would end up with about 60% of our diet coming from meat and dairy... Both animal products.

[Genesis]

Well, I don't think that would be the 25% animal that you and I have agreed on... I think that if we were to cut out high-glycemic starches and sugars we would end up with about 60% of our diet coming from meat and dairy... Both animal products.

Exactly.

I don't count the 25% as "anything animal derived"; I'm counting only flesh. Dairy and eggs I count separately ('cause they are - the protein/fat balance is completely different between them and animal flesh, whether fish, poultry or meat.) Weight 'em equally.

60% is IMHO ok - provided the rest isn't full of sugars and high-glycemic starches!

Your "by mass" count will end up with the veggies and fruits being about 60% of your diet though - they're less "efficient" in terms of calories per gram, which is to be expected. But yes, in terms of caloric intake 50-60% of mine is animal-derived.

[SeaJay]

Okay, then.

It appears, then, that 60% of your diet is "animal derived," then... With 40% other, mostly heavy greens.

My idea is 80% heavy greens and 20% "animal derived," grains and starches.

It appears that my thought process is much heavier on the greens, but I allow myself more glucose than you do.

To be perfectly honest here, Iit sounds to me that while these two diets are statistically different, the reality is that they aren't all that opposing. I think more greens and less animal, you think more animal and less starch.

No biggie. :D

Should I tell everyone my assessment of the Jet fins? Maybe I should give them one more fair shake with another bootie before I really go at them... :D 'Course, I don't see how a different ("puffier?") bootie is going to make that foot pocket any longer...

[malammon]

Man, talk about a hijacking. Anyway, it has been interesting reading. Frankly Mr. Jay, it sounds like you have been drinking too many of those grass drinks?! I'm sold on Genesis' argurments.

[diveski01]

cwb once bubbled...
Perhaps a glimpse into why certain people act the way they do and make certain demands...

1991 Indian Springs Incident by GI3 (http://www.bayareadivers.net/wb416/downloads/Diving%20Accident%20at%20Indian%20Springs%201991%2 0written%20by%20GI3%2077th%20dive.txt)

1991 Indians Springs Incident by Bill Gavin (http://www.bayareadivers.net/wb416/downloads/diving%20accident%20at%20indian%20springs%201991%2 0written%20by%20bill%20g.txt)

Some lessons learned from 1991 Incident (http://www.bayareadivers.net/wb416/downloads/77th%20Dive%20Lessons%20learned.txt)

Perspective is everything...

Below is an example from Quest of GI3 trying to save lives by using strong, but hopefully effective, tactics. The widow of a diver has banded WITH him to try to help educate divers and prevent other deaths.

I want to show readers on this board that GI3 has a multi-faceted personality, just like the rest of us. If you only hear certain aspects, that is the only basis you may have to form your opinions.


On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 18:04:43 -0500 George Irvine <trey> wrote:

Lisa, this post of yours has brought out the usual suspects from the Buddy Inspiration cheering section, who are about the same caliber of mentality as you would expect to see at a cock fight. They are citing some web links that contain examples of stupidity that are beyond the pale, but they see them as fantastic accomplishments.

Maybe you and the rest of the Buddy Inspiration widows can explain to these morons what it really means to have your husband killed by a piece of s**t like Martin Parker, by the crap training out there, by the "every man for himself" mentality of the tough guy Brits who seem to feel these devices make them a real man, and by the very "accomplishments" ( read doing stupid
things and getting away with it) that they are so proud of.
The funny thing is that they want to attack me over your post.

Your husband is dead along with countless others due to this piece of crap and the thinking that surrounds it, and we have some lame moron on here telling me how superior these people are and how screwed up GUE is ( now he has changed
that to "DIR").

Maybe you can put some of the things you told me privately on here and save some lives. While the idiots are well recognized by most of us a idiots, you never know who you could prevent from suffering like you have.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle [Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 4:05 PM
To: trey
Cc: lisa3; techdiver@aquanaut.com; quest@gue.com
Subject: RE: Nic Gotto Inquest
Hi George,
You are so right. Paul thought he was helping with breakthroughs when he particepated in the early trimix dives on the unit. Everyone on the inspiration site knew what he was doing, he and a dozen or so others discussed how they were using mix on the unit. Not a word of caution from the manufacturers, they must have loved all the free research they were getting done by Paul and the others. There was even a chamber dive planned to further asess the performance of the unit on trimix.

Then his accident and all of a sudden he was some kind of rogue and the statement was that he died because he was using trimix.
The unit is sold to be used with trimix and heliox, how did the use of trimix kill him? We cannot see another diver related reason so lets blame it on trimix. Paul did not die because he was using trimix but this was the get out initially used. There are plenty of people using trimix on the unit now. Some very lucky people.

Imagine, you have the full suport of your peers and are in freequent contact with the manufacturers detailing exactly what you are doing. Suddenly, you die whilst using one of these units and all that suport dissapears and you become some maveric doing things they would never condone.

Paul had had no end of problems with the unit so was extremely cautious and meticulous whilst using it. Replacement scrubber lids and a replacement unit and numerous discussions with AP.

How does it feel to be the widow?

When the people your sole mate entrusted his life to abandon him and use him as a scapegoat? They have a quote published in a magazine stating their sympathy for you when you can see nothing has been done to rectify the situation, they do nothing and they act like nothing has hapened.

When the daughter you bore after he died wishes on a star that she could see her father.

When your entire life has been thrown up in the air and slowly falls back down to the ground shattering in to unrecoverable peices.

When collegues at work dash in to a utility room when they see you walking towards them in a corridoor because they just don't know what to say to you. You feel like a leper.

When people ask you 'hello, how are you?' ( normal, polite) you have to say 'fine thanks' ( normal, polite) but inside you want to screem at them for asking such a stupid question. How the hell do they think you feel - but it is not their fault, they don't know how much that simple question rips you apart.

When you spend endless hours with his patents explaining, trying to make some sense of it. No parent expects to loose their child.

When you are evicted and your home is reposessed because you are not named on the mortgage. The home you shared for almost a decade.

When you sit every night in silence on the sofa desperate to hear his keys in the door as he comes home to you.
You hear about 15 more people loosing their life on the same unit but still no questions are asked.

And all the time the one you love is being used as a scapegoat, called an idiot by people who never met him, and every time you try to defend him you are pushed off as an hysterical woman. You look deeper and deeper and ask questions that no-one will answer.

You have to listen to his reputation being ripped to shreds even though you know what people are saying is wrong.

Shall I go on, or do you get the impression?

Martin Parker has spoken to me twice. Once at Paul's inquest where he said 'stuffy in there, isn't it' and once at Nic Gotto's inquest where he tried to say hello as if we were old friends, and asked was I well, in the most incredable upbeat maner, I was horrified and speachless. He seems to have absolutely no concept.

As for the other things I can tell you about their performance, how about attempting to submit a graph ( of how long the loop could sustain life) at a public inquest, which was massively innacurate but if it had been believed could have explained the pathologists findings. The graph's innacuracy was
exposed and there was no other way AP could explain the pathologist's findings. The pathalogical evidence that Paul had been alive for some time, probably hours, following a hypoxic event.

[SeaJay]

Frankly Mr. Jay, it sounds like you have been drinking too many of those grass drinks?! I'm sold on Genesis' argurments.


Heheheee...

I don't think we really disagree on a whole lot... Only a few percentages. He says 40% heavy greens, I say 80% heavy greens. He says 60% animal, I say 20% animal. I say you can have a few starches if your body has no predisposed problems with diabetes. He says basically the same, if even more conservative on starchy foods.

His ideas are based around losing weight. My ideas are based around blood health, regardless of weight (although that's certainly going to be a by-product of either of these diets).

The only true disagreement here is that I believe that I'm going to generally do a complete or near-complete phase-out of animal products. He feels that this is too extreme, but doesn't drink milk anyway.

I think the real point here... And you can derive it through either my posts or his; doesn't matter... Is that we need to be aware of our eating habits. For me, it wasn't just eating... It was tobacco use, too. (That's a whole other hotly debated topic with Gen, although he doesn't smoke either.) It boils down to, "You can't survive on coffee, donuts, french fries and milkshakes." At least, not in a healthy state.

[Genesis]

It appears that my thought process is much heavier on the greens, but I allow myself more glucose than you do.

To be perfectly honest here, Iit sounds to me that while these two diets are statistically different, the reality is that they aren't all that opposing. I think more greens and less animal, you think more animal and less starch.


I think you can be "ok", assuming your body doesn't revolt in the area of insulin tolerance, with either approach - the one you're taking and the one I'm taking. I don't have a family history of diabetes; I just find that a low-fat, low-animal products nutrition regime is almost impossible for me to stay on and be happy with.

The other way is simple for me, in that I only "lose" one food that I really like (baked potatoes), and if I occasionally indulge in lasagna it won't kill me. If I want a steak I eat it, but sub the veggies out for the spud. Plus, I love both stir-fry and salmon, and neither of those is likely to do me much harm :)

What is clear, though, is that you can't eat both the fats AND the sugars (either in the form of carbs or just pure sugar) and do all that well, unless your caloric needs are extreme (e.g. you're burning 3,000+ calories a day, which few people are.)

Statistically speaking, loading up on those high-glycemic foods and refined sugars is how we got to be where we are now, with more than half our adult population obese and the rates of heart disease and diabetes going through the ceiling.

That sucks, and since I'd like to make it well past 60, I had to decide how I was not going to contribute to the "bad side" of the statistics....

Go nuts on the Jetfins :)

Oh, and come down here and shoot a fish with me. I bet one of my buddies will even let you use their speargun, so you're not down there unarmed ;)

[SeaJay]

Genesis once bubbled...


What is clear, though, is that you can't eat both the fats AND the sugars (either in the form of carbs or just pure sugar) and do all that well, unless your caloric needs are extreme (e.g. you're burning 3,000+ calories a day, which few people are.)


Bingo... I completely agree.



Statistically speaking, loading up on those high-glycemic foods and refined sugars is how we got to be where we are now, with more than half our adult population obese and the rates of heart disease and diabetes going through the ceiling.


Yep, and that's the problem that I think we're all trying to avoid.



Go nuts on the Jetfins :)


Ha! Boy, that'll start a war, won't it? I gotta give 'em a fair shake, I think, with a different set of booties... Lemme think about it a while before I lay into them. :D



Oh, and come down here and shoot a fish with me. I bet one of my buddies will even let you use their speargun, so you're not down there unarmed ;)

Very cool! I'd love to dive... But there ain't no way I'm shootin' a damn fish... :D I'd rather dive PEACEFULLY. :D

[Genesis]

Very cool! I'd love to dive... But there ain't no way I'm shootin' a damn fish... I'd rather dive PEACEFULLY.

Well, you're not supposed to shoot 'em unless you intend to shortly turn on the grill and eat 'em :)

There's nothing quite like just-stopped-flopping grouper or snapper going on the grill..... yummy stuff - and good for 'ya besides :)

(If 'ya want a challenge, show up here in the next few weeks and you might get a shot at a Cobia. If you survive the encounter - I haven't shot one yet, but have heard stories of the fishie trying to wrap 'em to the point of no escape - they're great eating... ;)

Put some sport in your diving SeaJay!) =-)

[SeaJay]

Genesis once bubbled...
Put some sport in your diving SeaJay!

Lol... Dunno about that one... I think you and I have different definitions of the word, "sport." :D

Now, if you gave the fish a speargun and told him that I was edible, and we were on equal terms, then maybe I'd consider it a "sport." The way I see it, you're just a thug pickin' on da little fishie... :D

Unless, of course, you ate him afterwards... Then it's called, "hunting." But you see, I'm already not for that, and criticized for it as well. :(

I'd rather swim in peace and enjoy the view... Work up an appetite and enjoy some greens after the dive. :D

But I appreciate the offer. :) Maybe instead we can do some wreck-hunting...

[Genesis]

plenty of them to dive around here too... :)

(PS: My compressor came in today. As soon as I can get the electrical done for it I'll be "charged" - literally :) )

[SeaJay]

Cool! "Compressor?" You mean that when I come down I won't have to pay for air fills? Cool! :D

[ScoobieDooo]

SeaJay,
Its OK, keep on drinkin' your Greens man! All my co-workers and college students used to 'razz' me until THEY saw I was the one going for 18 hrs a day and never tired, sick or feeling crummy.

Guess what, most of them have jumped on the bandwagon and now are saying "Wow, this stuff IS really awesome! I have loads of energy and find myself eating better and not craving the junk foods I used to!"

Anyone who would like more info on this PM me for the web site link.

Drink, drink and be happy!