Burning Question...

[LUBOLD8431]

Ok, here it is: which training would you do next: Full Cave cert or Trimix cert?

I have some time this year for another class, and I want to do both, but I just dont think I can afford both classes. SO, if you HAD to pick one or the other, which class would you take???

[Cave Diver]

I pick trimix. In fact, I start my mix class in just about a month. But then again, I already have my cave cert, so maybe it isn't fair for me to answer that.

All things being equal, if I had to start over again, I think I would still have done my cave cert first tho.

[dsgobie]

ready to die, but never will

OoRah

[RichLockyer]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
Ok, here it is: which training would you do next: Full Cave cert or Trimix cert?
I suppose to matters WHERE you would like to cave dive. If your cave diving will be limited to Akumal, then perhaps Cave would be a better choice, but for us mainlanders who might hop down to Florida, I would consider mix to be a personal prerequisite to cave.

The mix cert will include everything you need to know about extended range diving and deep diving that can be important, not only for cave, but as a solid basis for tech diving in general.

There's no use in being cave certified when the depths and lengths of the caves available to you preclude air/nitrox/NDL.

Do mix this year and enjoy the cavern zone :)

[WreckWriter]

If I had neither I would pick mix for sure.

WW

[O-ring]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
If I had neither I would pick mix for sure.

WW
Most of my diving is on wrecks in NC and VA...mix before cave for me....although it might be a different story if I lived in FL.

[chickdiver]

I say take the cave class. You can apply the techniques you will learn to all the diving you do.

[PA/NJdiver]

I say take the cave class. You can apply the techniques you will learn to all the diving you do.

I agree with Chickdiver. And if you think your skills were good in OW, you will find out exactly how good they are in cave training.

[mddolson]

for theses reasons:

1) I get narc'd below 120 feet.
2) there are lots of wreck below 100 feet
3) There aren't many caves in Ontario

Mike D
:blfish:

[Divesherpa]

I would recommend cave first, as have many already. Then I would recommend Trimix in a cave. If you can plan and execute a training dive with 7 different depths for set periods of time while following a rigid time schedule plus all of the other hoopties, then a wreck dive on mix is a piece of cake. Also mix diving in a cave is much more fun due to the missing option of near vertical ascent. Diving mix is mostly about planning. The practical application is easy if you know your equipment and how to control buoyancy.

Cheers and safe diving,
Jamie

[Cave Diver]

Wow! This has got to be one of the closest polls I've seen in a long time.

[jbd]

would be trimix first then cave.

[AquaTec]

I woud say cave diver, a caving course will make you a better diver, and trimix will make you a smarter diver.

I would go with cave and get to be a good diver with great boyancy skills prior to taking a trimix course which will then let you use those skills to plan and perform deeper diving.

[JeffG]

I was looking at the same issues, and I will/(would) choose Cave first.

Cave diving; I could use it for Wreck diving at rec depths. Trimix diving looks like it needs alot more support (surface/boat) and ergo, it would be harder to arrange for those types of dives.

[kingprawn]

The next time I find a cave 20 miles out in the Atlantic I'll let you know. Until then, Trimix.

Don't get me wrong, I've been in Cenotes.. Very Cool. But up here, Trimix.

[LUBOLD8431]

Well, with the exception of the quarry up in Vermont that has some nice tunnels, no there arent any... But in the Boston area at least, there are quite a few cave divers. ALot of these guys do trips to Florida and Mexico on a pretty regular basis. i think the idea of cave diving is way cool. I have explored the quarry up in Vermont alot, and no its really not a cave, but it sure acts like one. I do like Wreck diving, and would like to explore with a clearer mind at depths beyond the recreational limit. I sometimes think that I should be breathing a little helium at the surface too, although, I dont know if it would have the same effect. Anyways, this poll is coming down very evenly... I was hoping to get a landslide one way or the other... Oh well, we shall see...

[Divesherpa]

Here's the deal: If you want to progress efficiently, take cave first. If you can plan a multilevel dive with mucho deco obligation, then you know and understand how to conduct a safe dive. Anyone can do a square profile and progress up in a staggered way. Again, I would suggest learning to dive caves first. Although you may not believe it now, if you can plan a multi-level cave dive, you can plan almost any dive that you will do. I don't know many cave divers who don't understand deco theory fairly well, so I think the two go hand in hand.
For what it's worth, I was doing deep mixed gas in cold water with strong currents and 20+ foot tidal changes before I did any cave diving. I moved to Florida to gain proficiency in a cave. Now, the dives that I used to worry about are a piece of cake. Caves necessitate an understanding of planning that goes beyond following a computer printout.

I can't say enough about the experience of the class alone, much less the learning experience of being around people who do multilevel decompression dives several times per week. I'm doing an internship to teach cave and mixed gas now. I will urge all of my students to do cave first. If not with me, with one of the many qualified instructors who are available. There is no class that disciplines divers like cave.
Cheers,
Jamie

[wb416]

What I planned and what I did were two different things. I had planned and had every intention of achieving (normoxic) trimix first, before even considering cave (after all, I live near the Great Lakes, and good wrecks are "deep").

However, plans and circumstances change. All the skills practice that was geared toward DIR-F and Tech was easily translated to a week of Full Cave training.

It wasn't the route I'd mapped out a couple of years ago, but I don't regret doing it. At least now I have something [warmer] to do with those cold winter months instead of ice diving. :)

If I had it to do over, I think I'd intentionally pick cave first. A dive buddy of mine is a good wreck diver, moreso because of her cave training. I'm glad she kept "suggesting" it.

[JamieZ]

I would say cave first. Most of the wrecks near me that are worth penetrating are deep. If you dont have the skills to penetrate I dont see a reason to go deep. I took cave before mix. Cave class was the best class I have ever taken it increased my skills 10 fold.

I think wreck diving with penetration is much more demanding then cave diving because there is way more stuff to get tangled on.

I dont think wrecks are the place to perfect your skills, trim, running lines, etc. You dont get the huge penetration dives on wrecks like you do in caves.

[O-ring]

Ok, I said trimix first and voted accordingly. IMHO, you do not have to have cave training to be a good wreck diver and have good "cave style" skills. Some people can probably get by with a good mentor or a DIRF or something similar and work from there.

That being said, I totally consider cave and trimix to be complimentary training and think that both should be taken. Cave increases fundamental skills and provides the overhead training while trimix provides the decompression training and the background in mixed gasses needed to be a good wreck diver.

Just do both so we can stop arguing :D

[Big-t-2538]

First off, I don't have either cert, and am probably going to head down these paths in the near future....and am in a decision making process now anyway....

I chose cave first for a couple reasons. One, it is (or at least should be) a skill intesive class. You are learning new techniques and they have to be pretty damn good in order to become a cave diver.

I feel that in order to receive decompression training you have to posess good techniques and the ability to hit your run-times. You have to have good bouyancy and the ability to compensate if something happens. I think this is a mindset that should be learned in a skills intensive class such as caving.

With that being said, I think the two classes are a complement to each other. In order to get to some caves, you have to go deep, but there are plenty of caves within the 80' to 100' range where you can learn caving techniques. Everything I've read about helium suggests that a He mix is the way to go for deeper dives and is safer than air.

[malammon]

When you say full cave, does that mean you are already apprentice cave? Or are you planning to do the one week crash course? If you are not even cavern certified, then a full cave course is going to cost you more than a trimix course. Of course this assumes you already have advanced nitrox, normoxic mix, etc.... Choosing between cave and trimix is like choosing between F1 and Nascar, they are both the top rung on ladders which include many lower steps. Of course I'm sure you have made these steps if you are looking at these particular courses.

My vote if for cave, you will use these skills in all of your diving.

[JamieZ]

O-ring, my point is most of the people who have taken Trimix (at least up here) have no penetration skills at all. Most of them dont run lines dont care about silt outs ect. That goes for the majority of the people diving wrecks off Long Island, but not all. Basically they'll tell you, I'll cut your line if it gets in my way. This is just what I've seen from the few times I've been down there, not including my buddy who's also been down there with out me and he ends up being the only one who runs lines. Actually this includes allot of St. Lawrence and Great Lakes Divers. Not saying all the above dont but the majority of them dont.

[O-ring]

scubanarc once bubbled...
O-ring, my point is most of the people who have taken Trimix (at least up here) have no penetration skills at all. Most of them dont run lines dont care about silt outs ect. That goes for the majority of the people diving wrecks off Long Island, but not all. Basically they'll tell you, I'll cut your line if it gets in my way. This is just what I've seen from the few times I've been down there, not including my buddy who's also been down there with out me and he ends up being the only one who runs lines. Actually this includes allot of St. Lawrence and Great Lakes Divers. Not saying all the above dont but the majority of them dont.
...but I will take it a step further. Most of the people around here (not sure about NY) who have taken trimix don't even have decent fundamental diving skills either. I agree that cave would polish these and in the case of some would fail them until they developed the necessary skills...I guess the reality of it is that people don't know what they don't know and won't develop those skills on their own (although, IMHO, they could without cave training)..

[chickdiver]

O Ring- here's an arguement from the other side of the fence so to speak. Most people will never "figure out" the correct way to run lines, line protocals, etc without formal instruction, Ii think caves are the best way to do this. Over the years I have known many experienced wreck divers who came south to get cave cert in order to refine thier skills. On the other hand- Trimix cert is nice, but realistically- if you uinderstand the math for nitrox, then you understand it for trimix. The planning aspects arent too hard, and if you do a handful of mix dives with expereienced divers, you learn how to do it pretty quickly. Of all the mix divers I know, only a handful ever took a class. I never took a mix class- when I became a mix instructor, I fond that I knew more about it and had more dives than the Instructor Trainer..... I just dont feel that a mix class is as necessary or as useful as a Cave class.

[O-ring]

chickdiver once bubbled...
O Ring- here's an arguement from the other side of the fence so to speak. Most people will never "figure out" the correct way to run lines, line protocals, etc without formal instruction, Ii think caves are the best way to do this. Over the years I have known many experienced wreck divers who came south to get cave cert in order to refine thier skills. On the other hand- Trimix cert is nice, but realistically- if you uinderstand the math for nitrox, then you understand it for trimix. The planning aspects arent too hard, and if you do a handful of mix dives with expereienced divers, you learn how to do it pretty quickly. Of all the mix divers I know, only a handful ever took a class. I never took a mix class- when I became a mix instructor, I fond that I knew more about it and had more dives than the Instructor Trainer..... I just dont feel that a mix class is as necessary or as useful as a Cave class.
He should take both!

[chickdiver]

I agree with you there, but if primacy is an issue, I would say cave first for those reasons.

[Pez de Diablo]

chickdiver once bubbled...
<snip>
if you do a handful of mix dives with expereienced divers, you learn how to do it pretty quickly. Of all the mix divers I know, only a handful ever took a class. I never took a mix class- when I became a mix instructor, I fond that I knew more about it and had more dives than the Instructor Trainer..... I just dont feel that a mix class is as necessary or as useful as a Cave class.


I couldn't agree more.
In most other sports, learning from your peers is the way to progress.

[icediver]

I took my cave course when I only had 50 dives. The skills learned on that course made me 10 times the diver I was before that.

However I do use the trimix training more often. So it depends where you are in your skill level at this time, and your ablity to get to caves.

T

[LUBOLD8431]

Well, I am Cavern certified, and I do have "some" training in the use of lines and stuff... not like jumps and gaps and stuff. ALso, I took deco procedures and advanced nitrox last summer. I have some good experience up in the quarry in VT that we go to about three or four times a year (about a 4 hr dive each way).

Its all tied up again... I guess I will have to take both. LOL!!!

[gatorboy]

scubanarc once bubbled...
O-ring, my point is most of the people who have taken Trimix (at least up here) have no penetration skills at all. Most of them dont run lines dont care about silt outs ect. That goes for the majority of the people diving wrecks off Long Island, but not all. Basically they'll tell you, I'll cut your line if it gets in my way. This is just what I've seen from the few times I've been down there, not including my buddy who's also been down there with out me and he ends up being the only one who runs lines. Actually this includes allot of St. Lawrence and Great Lakes Divers. Not saying all the above dont but the majority of them dont.

Where I take my courses (Dans Dive Shop, St.Catherines Ontario) if you don't have the necessary skills you won't pass the course. The instructors work with you until you master them. This starts right from Open Water and Advanced Open Water. The thought of hearing Tri-mix divers not having penetration skills scares me. On my first diving trip I learned a lot watching the Tri-mixed guys. Besides, when diving with them, if you start silting out a wreck they'll grab you and throw you off. 10 or 20 divers shouldn't lose out on a dive just because 1 person doesn't have the essential skills taught right from the start.

Personally, I'll do my cavern course befoe my Tri-mix, but I'll do my Tri-mix before my Full Cave.

[wb416]

I see people advocating cave for the skills, however, with the exception of the "line-oriented" drills (lost line/buddy, line laying, etc), there weren't any skills I picked up in cave for the overall betterment of my diving that wasn't covered in DIR-F.

[MikeFerrara]

cwb once bubbled...
I see people advocating cave for the skills, however, with the exception of the "line-oriented" drills (lost line/buddy, line laying, etc), there weren't any skills I picked up in cave for the overall betterment of my diving that wasn't covered in DIR-F.

I would agree accept...Cave is a minimum of 16 dives (if I remember right) with all kinds of naturally occuring situations (application). In order to complete a cave class proficiency is a requirement (in theory). DIRF consists of what 4 dives? Since DIRF has been made a "certification" I would imagine some level of mastery will be required. A cave instructor also has the option of introducing other "tech" skills like stage diving, staged decompression using O2 and others. Not very many years ago cave training was about the only tech training available so it did it all.


I think a cave class is a great place to perfect skills but the thought of taking a cave class just for that reason seems silly to me just because not everyone wants to go in a cave (which is as it should be).

[wb416]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I would agree accept...Cave is a minimum of 16 dives (if I remember right) with all kinds of naturally occuring situations (application). In order to complete a cave class proficiency is a requirement (in theory). DIRF consists of what 4 dives? Since DIRF has been made a "certification" I would imagine some level of mastery will be required.
[snip]



I can only speak of what I got out of it. Maybe if I hadn't of had DIR-F, then cave would have added more skills to my plate.

[MikeFerrara]

cwb once bubbled...



I can only speak of what I got out of it. Maybe if I hadn't of had DIR-F, then cave would have added more skills to my plate.

There is only so much to diving. If you got trim, bc and can swim everything else is just doint the same thing in a different place or with a different gas or with an additional tool like a reel/line.

My former students who have gone on to cave training had an easy time also.

You should have seen the trimix class we just did. The students were better in the water than the instructor. In fact they already knew more about decompression theory. They were also my former students who went on to cave training and then trimix.

[LUBOLD8431]

well, you cave guys are giving a good argument... But the poll is leaning towards the trimix course...

COme on guys, somebody make a break for it...

[Divesherpa]

You should have asked trimix cave divers which they would do first!! Most of my friends, associates, and dive buddies would say cave. Especially if you already have a foundation on deco theory.

[Cave Diver]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
well, you cave guys are giving a good argument... But the poll is leaning towards the trimix course...

COme on guys, somebody make a break for it...

Well I guess that depends on the +/- percentage of error in the poll now doesnt it? :D

[LUBOLD8431]

well, I guess I could do my cave cert this year, and forgo Trimix until next year...

Oh well, I guess I am doing the Doria on air this summer...

[O-ring]

Oh well, I guess I am doing the Doria on air this summer...
I think you are kidding...but just in case you aren't, I would get that trimix card instead of cave before I did this.

[LUBOLD8431]

Yeah, it was a joke... I was hoping to get a rise out of some people, and I guess no one saw it or they have decided to ignore me now... Oh well...

[O-ring]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
Yeah, it was a joke... I was hoping to get a rise out of some people, and I guess no one saw it or they have decided to ignore me now... Oh well...
I thought so..

[Divesherpa]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
they have decided to ignore me now... Oh well...

Yep, that about sums it up!!

[LUBOLD8431]

all tied up again...

Divesherpa, dont hate me because I'm beautiful!!!

[icediver]

[QUOTE]LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
[B]Yeah, it was a joke...

I guess we can put the body bag away then.

T

[LUBOLD8431]

icediver once bubbled...

I guess we can put the body bag away then.

T [/B]

Keep it handy, I might not make it too much longer...

[jbd]

aren't you glad we could help you make a clear and decisive decision:)

[LUBOLD8431]

This is the worst thread I have ever started. Here I am looking for your opinions, and I expect a clear and decise victory...

I got your opinions, and thank you for them . I just didnt get any farther with this question.

Thanks alot everyone for NOT helping me make up my mind, as this poll keeps going on with no apparent winner.

Please someone help me...

[wb416]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
This is the worst thread I have ever started. Here I am looking for your opinions, and I expect a clear and decise victory...

I got your opinions, and thank you for them . I just didnt get any farther with this question.

Thanks alot everyone for NOT helping me make up my mind, as this poll keeps going on with no apparent winner.

Please someone help me...

I'm curious how many people might say that both are good and/or important, so just take the first one that opportunity presents.

Which one are you likely to get a chance at first? That may answer the question for you. After all, you'll want both!:D

Good Luck!
wb

[MikeFerrara]

I second CWB's position. Why take the most important first. Why not the most convenient or the easiest to schedule. I think we all agree that it's best to have both, right?

Flip a coin.

[LUBOLD8431]

I will take your advise, its funny that you say that.... because
it looks like I may have a cave class tentatively scheduled with Terrence Tysall this fall.

Thanks for the info... CWB and Mike...