Can anyone tell me why course costs vary so much for the same course in the same city between dive shops? We are shopping around for a shop where my friend can take a course and have found pricing from as low as $99.00 complete to as high as $500. I assume most shops costs are pretty close to being the same, I wonder how 1 shop can charge only for course materials and cert fees and others are much higher? We are not shopping on price alone but on the whole package of what the shop has to offer, strangley the shop with the lowest cost is also the shop that impressed us the most.
MechDiver
March 18th, 2003, 06:23 PM
The same reason cars cost differently at different dealers. I don't know why people think there is something strange and wonderous about anything scuba. Its the same business as anything else. Plumbers do it, shoe stores do it.
Some include equipment or remote cert dives, some don't. Some make their profit on equipment sales and cut their instruction costs to get people in. Six of one/half dozen of another.
FWIW, I would seriously wonder about a "complete" course for $99.
MD
fish_bowl
March 18th, 2003, 06:57 PM
I wouldn't worry about the price. Look at the quality. I will tell you that I didn't pay a lot for my dive course either but the instruction I got was excellent. I would not have taken courses anywhere else. In fact, I am going to continue to take my courses with the same dive shop. I believe the low prices are to bring you into the store. Get to know your dive shop owner and istructor so you trust them and buy from them. Hey it works and well I honestly feel better buying from them.
Fish
:)
sparky30
March 18th, 2003, 08:18 PM
I know some stores run the Open Water course really cheap (at a loss) to get more folks in the store.. I picked my LDS by talking to other vertified divers.. Cost was a secondary choice.. I'd rather pay a premium and get a good instructor and training than a quicky course...I want to know that I am safe diver in the end.
Also, try to find out how many of their open water student actually become regular divers, and how many fade into the "I dive twice a year on vacation background".
DivingGal
March 18th, 2003, 08:18 PM
As fish_bowl said "I wouldn't worry about the price. Look at the quality. " Find out about the instructor who would be teaching the course -- like for any service, you can and should ask for references.
As for the difference in cost. As MechDiver mentioned find out what is "really" included in the cost of the course. Here's what I've noticed, some quote a price that is:
for the lectures
for the lectures and text books
for the lectures, text books and confined water
for the lectures, text books, confined water, and open water
for the lectures, text books, confined water, open water and equipment
Bubble Boy
March 19th, 2003, 02:42 AM
As everyone has said above find out what is included and what is not.
Does it include:
use of tanks, BC and regs for pool use and check out weekend?
rental wetsuit for check out weekend?
classroom fee
certification card fee
log book
text book
dive tables
pool fee
classroom and pool instructor fee
exam fee
checkout fee
air fills during the course
extra pool time if required
is the price different on skin gear (mask, fins, snorkel, weight belt and weight) if you are taking the course at the LDS?
Have you considered a dive club as an alternative to a LDS?
ColdH20diving
March 19th, 2003, 07:02 PM
everyone has offered great advise, I'd be skeptical of a $99.00 OW course, there has to be some hidden fees. The only thing I would add is to see how long the dive shop has been in business. My favorite dive shop has been around for a long time, they have a great staff and the instruction was top notch. I tried taking a class from another dive shop in the area, I had a gut feeling that something was wrong with their business practices, but took the class anyway Needless to say I did not go back there again. Just before they closed their doors they were offering all sorts of scuba "deals" I don't know how many people lost money but it's something to watch out for.
seahunter
March 19th, 2003, 11:03 PM
We train about 2000 divers each year. That's 10 times the average dive shop in Canada. I hear all the above comments on a daily basis and so far I'm pretty impressed with the fairness of the comments made on this thread thus far.
The difficulty is that you all know what's involved in becoming a diver while people that call making inquiries about becoming a diver do not. They are therefore at the complete mercy of the store owner or club trainer. They have no idea what they need to complete the certification process; they have no idea what equipment they should or should not buy; they have no idea of the costs of diving after the training portion is completed.
We have built an enviable scuba business and are proud that we are completely up front about the costs, options, requirements and any other information the prospective new diver ought to know to make an informed decision.
Regardless of the course 'fee', the ultimate cost to the new diver doesn't vary much. If the course is $99, it simply means that the additional costs are added later. The PADI student kit alone retails for $75 so obviously you don't get that in the $99 course. A $99 course will certainly (as most courses do!) require you to purchase a personal gear set (mask, snorkel, fins, boots and likely a weight belt too) which will cost $300 to $400. I'm sure that's not mentioned in the "Learn to Scuba Dive for $99" advertisement. For $99 you're not going to get much of an open water experience.
We've set a standard for several years now that has worked well for us in spite of numerous and persistant attempts to undermine our efforts. Our course fee of $375 includes everything! It's that simple.
We do offer a group rate and we do offer limited time specials but the concept never changes - the course fee includes everything you need to complete the training course. As we say, "There's nothing else to buy".
Let me be clear. The fee includes the class and pool training (the PADI modular course), the entire PADI student kit (Text, tables, log book, ++), the use of all equipment and even lunch throughout the weekend.
There is no component in that fee towards the cost of open water diving. The new divers are told that as we explain the options and costs of O/W training. They know they will need to pay for those expenses. We do not include anything for O/W because a large number of our divers complete their O/W dives by referral while travelling. It would not be fair to have a charge built into the course fee for diving they do not do with us. On the other hand, if they do the dives with us there is no fee charged. They simply pay their share of the cost of completing the O/W dives.
So why do we get so many students at our fee when others offer courses for less than 1/2?
Once explained, new divers can see that our course does NOT cost more - the fee is higher because all the essentials are included. In many cases, it turns out that taking our course ultimately costs less that at a store with a 'low fee'.
One definite reason is our reputation - our course is worth more.
We are often chosen simply because we are up front.
We offer a money-back guarantee. If you are not successful, we refund your money. No one else does that!
We give many, many extras - Dive Team membership which offers discounts, free pool practice time, specials, etc.
Our courses are clearly quality - no class has more than 8 students; there's an instructor for every 4 students; free make-up or extra classes; several quality control surveys; an extremely motivated, experienced and friendly leadership team; etc.
The new divers like the idea of options - they have options on the format (weekend, weeknight, daytime, home study, etc), options on the O/W dive format, options on equipment use and so on.
There may be other approaches that work well too but our courses run every weekend and often they are filled well in advance (we typically have 3 and sometimes 4 classes of eight every weekend) so I'm not about to make any changes.
I have been part of stores that have low course fees with hidden costs to make up the difference. It was no fun to work there, no fun for the students and no way to try to build a business.
BTW sparky what's wrong with divers who only make a few dives a year at the cottage or on their week-long trip to the south? Lots of divers enjoy scuba diving without falling head-over-heels. They still deserve a quality training program and great service. We get hundreds of new divers who want to take the course just so they can dive on their annual timeshare trip. I don't understand how that has any relationship to the 'quality ' of the scuba school!
weight_for_me
March 19th, 2003, 11:13 PM
Seahunter, that seems to be a decent price that you charge. Mine was a bit less expensive, but then we supplied our own lunches and log books. All equipment was included as well as course material...absolutely NO HIDDEN CHARGES. 8 in our class, 2 instructors, it was a beautiful thing.:D
Randy...
fish_bowl
March 20th, 2003, 08:25 AM
Hi Guys,
As I mentioned earlier, our class was not that expensive. We did have to purchase our fins, mask, snorkle and boots but they were not 300 to 400. I think I ended up spending about 150. But I want to continue diving and I have allready started to purchase all of my own gear so I did not think anything of it. As for quality, I feel that our class was small. We only had 8 students with one instructor and two dive masters in training. The thing I like about our course is that our open water is included and we can do that when the time is right for us. We also will be supplied all of the gear that we will need for our four open water classes. Also, if we did not feel that we had enough training our instructor was willing to have an extra class with us. I don't feel that just because a school has a cheaper price that they are being shifty about things. I again think you have to do research into the dive school. The nice thing about the store here is that he does about one class a month which makes it really personal.
Fish
tinman
March 20th, 2003, 08:33 AM
Bubble Boy once bubbled...
As everyone has said above find out what is included and what is not.
Does it include:
use of tanks, BC and regs for pool use and check out weekend?
rental wetsuit for check out weekend?
classroom fee
certification card fee
log book
text book
dive tables
pool fee
classroom and pool instructor fee
exam fee
checkout fee
air fills during the course
extra pool time if required
is the price different on skin gear (mask, fins, snorkel, weight belt and weight) if you are taking the course at the LDS?
Have you considered a dive club as an alternative to a LDS?
...excellent check list and others have given you a great start on making your decision. My only concern with Bubble Boy's statement is the end where I believe he is suggesting considering a dive club as a source of training. That I'm not a fan of - despite having done it myself. My experience has been that an LDS (Local Dive Shop) will generally equip you better for your course since they usually sell off their training gear each year - clubs don't always have this luxury. Knowing what I know now, I would have done more homework and checked out the LDS's as a source of training - 20/20 hindsight is a great thing. Don't get me wrong - joining a club after being certified is a great idea for a new diver as a source of dive buddies, scheduled dives, social gatherings, and dive site information.
Learning to dive, is not like learning to roller blade, golf or bowl! Expect to spend more money than you have currently budgetted even if you're just getting your feet wet. Try to reassess your fitness level, particularly your aerobic fitness.
Once you've blown some bubbles underwater, you may want to have your SO lock away your wallet for a while, once addicted there's no looking back...
Groundhog246
March 20th, 2003, 09:52 AM
seahunter once bubbled...
BTW sparky what's wrong with divers who only make a few dives a year at the cottage or on their week-long trip to the south? Lots of divers enjoy scuba diving without falling head-over-heels. They still deserve a quality training program and great service. We get hundreds of new divers who want to take the course just so they can dive on their annual timeshare trip. I don't understand how that has any relationship to the 'quality ' of the scuba school!
The only problem with that type diver is they usually have a relatively low in water skill level (fair to poor buoyancy control) and with a year between dives don't always remember everything they should. According to DAN, infrequent divers experience a larger proportion of dive related injuries. I have personally seen infrequent divers, who, despite LDS emphasis on annual service, will go far longer as "I don't use it much, so it shouldn't need service". Probably the same person who doesn't change their vehicle motor oil every 3 months, because they don’t drive a lot and haven’t reached 5000km, the heck with what the owners manual says.
I've also seen it in other activities. I've seen guys who have sailed for years, but not for a while, forget some important tasks, causing major headaches and injuries.
Or like the guy who hasn't ridden his bike in years and has gone slightly out of shape, setting off for a 10km jaunt, because he "used to do it all the time".
So, yes they deserve a quality training program. If anything they need a better than average program so that they can retain longer those skills they infrequently practice.
(PS, I will admit that my views have been somewhat affected by those of my LDS)
seahunter
March 20th, 2003, 10:10 AM
Absolutely right Tinman!
Clubs are good places to meet divers and to explore new diving experiences but not the best for training. Don't bite my head off if you were trained at a club and loved it. Club instruction CAN be great! But it usually is not possible in the volunteer club environment to get a top quality, introduction to the whole sport.
Usually the instructor is paid very little if any. We've had to step in on two occasions this year alone and complete the training for 2 clubs when the instructor let the class down. Also he will not necessarily be up-to-date on the latest standards and methods because he only teaches once or twice a year.
As well, they may used out-dated, worn-out or borrowed gear that may not even suit or fit the new divers.
Training materials may also be re-used and old editions.
As Tinman says, a quality scuba school has so many resources right at hand that enhance the learning and expose the students to all the wonderful aspects of the course. They'll learn about all the gear available, the scuba rental system, other courses they can take, careers in scuba, be exposed to several instructors and so on.
It may seem at first glance Fish that a school that teaches once a month is a good idea but... are you suggesting he does that because it makes a better course for the divers or is it because that's the volume of business he gets. If he had students for two (or more) classes, would he turn them away?
We ensure the personal touch more than most schools with a much lower volume by the use of friendly store staff, enthusiastic instructors, low ratios (just 4 divers per instructor), encouraging pool practice sessions after the course and so on. It really comes down to treating the new divers like family. One small course a month seems to me to limit the opportunities for the divers to mix, mingle, socialize and feel part of a dynamic group of fun-seeking divers.
As usual, it really depends on the store and the staff including the instructors whether the business is large and busy or small.
seahunter
March 20th, 2003, 10:23 AM
If they developed the proper attitudes during their course, the new divers will not exceed their training or experience limitations.
Certainly those that dive just a few times a year may not have the same skill level as a dedicated scuba diver but, they also very likely know that. They very likely depend on a professional dive charter service rather than dive alone, they will more likely take advantage of a refresher at their LDS (which a lot of experienced divers should do but won't) and they are more likely to use rented gear so must seek professional advise when going diving.
Basically, the occasional diver is much more likely to depend heavily on the LDS or the scuba store when on holidays.
I respect your views g-Hog but notice you too fall into the trap of assuming that the more they learn on the O/W course the more they'll retain when, in fact, educational experts will tell you the oppposite is true. The dedicated diver will concentrate and study his new-found sport and learn all about it. The diver who only wants to dive once a year in Florida needs only to learn the important basic information and master the basic skills that will allow him to dive safely in shallow water and in 'soft' diving conditions.
sparky30
March 20th, 2003, 11:55 AM
seahunter once bubbled...
BTW sparky what's wrong with divers who only make a few dives a year at the cottage or on their week-long trip to the south? Lots of divers enjoy scuba diving without falling head-over-heels. They still deserve a quality training program and great service. We get hundreds of new divers who want to take the course just so they can dive on their annual timeshare trip. I don't understand how that has any relationship to the 'quality ' of the scuba school!
You are correct.. that does not have a direct relationship to the quality of the school.. However, I find that LDSs who can motivate folks to dive more than twice a year end up with better students who eventually go on to their AOW, etc...to become better divers..
The problem I have with the infrequent divers is that their skills are slowly but surely fading away. Usually bouyancy is the first to go. I'm sure you've seen them.. The friendly folks who have been certified for 10 years, and point it out to everybpdy on the diveboat.. When they get in the water they hit the sand.. hold on to coral (breaking pieces off in the process), flatten sponges, and dangle octos and gauges all over the place.. They same folks usually crawl all over you on your safety stop and have no idea where their fins are.. (Usually in my face). When they get back on the boat the chastise other divers for not getting out of the way during their safetey stop on the line...Even worse.. thet try to give new divers advice.. I've seen all of those things happend. I just think people who dive more regulary maintain their skills and know their limits.
GTADiver
March 20th, 2003, 04:16 PM
seahunter once bubbled...
Absolutely right Tinman!
Clubs are good places to meet divers and to explore new diving experiences but not the best for training. Don't bite my head off if you were trained at a club and loved it. Club instruction CAN be great! But it usually is not possible in the volunteer club environment to get a top quality, introduction to the whole sport.
Usually the instructor is paid very little if any.
From a store owner no other statement could be expected. Finding a dive club is like finding a LDS in that you should do some research first. You whether they are a teaching club or not. It does not matter if you are taking a course in a club setting or in a store as far as the instructors pay goes.....it is below minimum wage when all is figured out. Most instructors in both settings teach because they love the sport.
As far as top quality instructors go, you will find them in some clubs. I have belonged to clubs that had a PADI Course Director, ACUC Instructor Trainers and Naui Instructor Trainers as well.
A club trains you to dive safely with them. I would not knock them at all.
Groundhog246
March 20th, 2003, 07:18 PM
seahunter once bubbled...
I respect your views g-Hog but notice you too fall into the trap of assuming that the more they learn on the O/W course the more they'll retain when, in fact, educational experts will tell you the oppposite is true.
Not sure if I'm misunderstood:( , mis-quoted or I mis-stated. I agree that too much info can overload and less ends up retained. I think knowing the gas laws and their place is important, but the name of the law much less so. As long as you understand volume will increase as pressure decreases, who's law (actually is the law of physics :D ) it is isn't.
What I was trying to say, is the sooner and more often you put the knowledge and skills you learned to use, the better you will retain them. Kinda like tha guy who hasn't used his small power boat in months forgetting to put the drain plug in BEFORE puttting the boat in the water. Hands up those who've watch that happen. :thumb:
seahunter
March 21st, 2003, 10:55 AM
Easy GTA!
I did say "Don't bite my head off!" (heck of a mouthful anyway).
I have personally been the driving force in helping to start, build and support at least a dozen scuba clubs in Ontario including the IBM Scuba Club, the Granite Scuba Club, York Scuba and others that are no longer around mainly due to the apathy of the members and the inability of the club to offer the amenities of a good LDS.
I am currently the single supporting store for two quite active clubs in Toronto and that means giving my time and ideas to them with no guarantee of a return (not good business) as well as a discount on gear and rentals (not fair to my other customers who have to earn discounts) and finally, regular donations of scuba stuff for them to use as fundraisers (just plain stupid on my part - I give them stuff I paid for so they can sell it at less than wholesale to my customers to raise money to run events at a loss for my customers to attend!). I hope you understand that last sentence because I'm not sure if I can repeat it. I've made our training facilities (class and pool) available for club functions. Heck, I've even referred some customers to a club for training or experience in an area that we don't cover!
The point is that I'm a big fan of clubs and recommend, even on this board, that all divers should join clubs to get extra, unique diving experience.
I simply have seen the change of the club role and the scuba shop role over the last 25 years and appreciate that stores (scuba schools) are now the best choice for quality, up-to-date, efficient and impartial training. Obviously there's an assumption the store is a good store.
Clubs do have a role in the sport and that role IMO is to provide an alternative choice for divers for meeting other divers, socializing, gaining experience and enjoying dive experiences that are not offered elsewhere. They cannot effectively offer the scuba services that a good LDS does - training, sales, service. If they cannot do it effectively, and that means as good as, they should not try. They would be cheating the new divers.
While we're on the subject, may I suggest that clubs ought to openly support the stores if not even choose a store sponsor to give them the services as described above. Both the club and the store would benefit. Many clubs are afraid to associate with a store for fear they'll be considered unfair. What bunk!! The club executive should make a fair, unbiased assessment of which store would best service the club and make that store it's partner. The practice of naming 3 stores for their students to choose from so they don't appear to be promoting a single store is simply unfair if not stupid. The executive has the knowledge to choose a good store and has the responsibility to take care of the new diver in the club. The new diver meanwhile has no idea which of the 3 to go to. Make an informed decision and go for it! If it turns out the store was not the best choice for the club, change it!!
If some senior members don't like the choice they can go to their own favorite store. Club members don't have to go to the club sponsor - it's simply the best choice by the executive for new divers to work with. That store will also be much more likely to support the club in the ways I've mentioned above.
Clubs and stores are not competitors (or shouldn't be!) - they should be partners in promoting scuba and ensuring it's continued fun and safety.
It works for me and for the clubs I've helped.
tinman
March 21st, 2003, 11:06 AM
seahunter once bubbled...
While we're on the subject, may I suggest that clubs ought to openly support the stores if not even choose a store sponsor to give them the services as described above. Both the club and the store would benefit. Many clubs are afraid to associate with a store for fear they'll be considered unfair. What bunk!! The club executive should make a fair, unbiased assessment of which store would best service the club and make that store it's partner. The practice of naming 3 stores for their students to choose from so they don't appear to be promoting a single store is simply unfair if not stupid. The executive has the knowledge to choose a good store and has the responsibility to take care of the new diver in the club. The new diver meanwhile has no idea which of the 3 to go to. Make an informed decision and go for it! If it turns out the store was not the best choice for the club, change it!!
If some senior members don't like the choice they can go to their own favorite store. Club members don't have to go to the club sponsor - it's simply the best choice by the executive for new divers to work with. That store will also be much more likely to support the club in the ways I've mentioned above.
Clubs and stores are not competitors (or shouldn't be!) - they should be partners in promoting scuba and ensuring it's continued fun and safety.
It works for me and for the clubs I've helped.
Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. I've own and managed businesses outside this sport and this is just good business practice and very synergistic. Those club executives that don't see this, need to get their heads out of the sand, clouds or silt...
seahunter
March 21st, 2003, 11:11 AM
I knew I wasn't getting a clear message G'hog.
Quite right and exactly the reason ALL divers must understand the crucial importance of regular diving OR refreshers before diving after a long absence.
Actually, I see a lot of experienced divers who stop diving in October and then plan to jump into the water on a deep dive in April with no thought to checking their skills or even their gear. They don't seem to realize that 5 months is almost 1/2 a year and that length of time without once being underwater is too long particularly if planning on an early spring dive (the water is colder and faster than in November). There are many frenzied plans being made openly right now on this site and others (The Diving Board http://www.scuba2000.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi ) to dive at some fairly deep or strenuous sites by divers who I know have not been in the water in the past 5 or 6 months.
Peer pressure kills more divers than water pressure!
tinman
March 21st, 2003, 11:19 AM
seahunter once bubbled...
While we're on the subject, may I suggest that clubs ought to openly support the stores if not even choose a store sponsor to give them the services as described above. Both the club and the store would benefit. Many clubs are afraid to associate with a store for fear they'll be considered unfair. What bunk!! The club executive should make a fair, unbiased assessment of which store would best service the club and make that store it's partner. The practice of naming 3 stores for their students to choose from so they don't appear to be promoting a single store is simply unfair if not stupid. The executive has the knowledge to choose a good store and has the responsibility to take care of the new diver in the club. The new diver meanwhile has no idea which of the 3 to go to. Make an informed decision and go for it! If it turns out the store was not the best choice for the club, change it!!
If some senior members don't like the choice they can go to their own favorite store. Club members don't have to go to the club sponsor - it's simply the best choice by the executive for new divers to work with. That store will also be much more likely to support the club in the ways I've mentioned above.
Clubs and stores are not competitors (or shouldn't be!) - they should be partners in promoting scuba and ensuring it's continued fun and safety.
It works for me and for the clubs I've helped.
Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. I've own and managed businesses outside this sport and this is just good business practice and very synergistic. Those club executives that don't see this, need to get their heads out of the sand, clouds or silt...
sparky30
March 21st, 2003, 01:05 PM
seahunter once bubbled...
Peer pressure kills more divers than water pressure!
Unfortunately you are 100% correct. I've been diving continuosly through the winter (albeit a little less frequently than in the summer :) ) and I noticed that some skills could use some polishing to get back to speed.. So I joined my LDS on one of their pool sessions.. Mainly it was just to get used to gear that I hadn't worn in months.. Like my doubles.. Besides.. I got to meet a new generation of divers in the pool.
Its amazing how many people get talked into doing dives that are just beyond their reach.. Most of the time it goes OK, but the smallest problem can quickly escalate into an emergency when you're not ready for it.
cobaltbabe
March 27th, 2003, 01:40 PM
sparky30 once bubbled...
Its amazing how many people get talked into doing dives that are just beyond their reach.. Most of the time it goes OK, but the smallest problem can quickly escalate into an emergency when you're not ready for it.
And then there are those out there who are trying to do everything they can to get into the water asap, who feel at home in the water (not saying I'm experienced) and just want to get in there before I forget everything. ;-0
