Basic Cave 18 mo or loose it?

[Veronica]

Here's my question..I have my basic cave restricted to 1/6 doubles...so if I'm okay with staying on the goldline and only having my basic.. why do I have to get my full within 18 mo or I loose my basic..and then what.. go back to cavern?
I am going to continue to get my full cave but, thought it was not fare to make someone loose there basic or have to continue forward.. by the way.I love to dive cave and wrecks..always staying as safe as possible and fully aware of what's going on.
Thanx,
Tadpole

[Trixxie]

I don't know the exact reason (even though I asked my cave inst the same thing and was given an answer - it's the CRS syndrome kicking in) but it's a safety factor reason

I think they want the diver to be full cave or just cavern....not in limbo in between

[TSandM]

It doesn't make a lot of sense, really, but maybe it's one way to make sure you are actively cave diving? Having the cert expire ensures, I think, that you don't take the class and then come back five years later to do some diving. GUE does the same thing with ALL their cave certs -- they all expire, and you have to submit proof of 25 dives at the level to renew them. Seems like a pretty good idea for cave diving to me.

[SparticleBrane]

Just FYI they also do it for the GUE-F cert as well. ;)

[ucfdiver]

Here's my question..I have my basic cave restricted to 1/6 doubles...so if I'm okay with staying on the goldline and only having my basic.. why do I have to get my full within 18 mo or I loose my basic..and then what.. go back to cavern?
I am going to continue to get my full cave but, thought it was not fare to make someone loose there basic or have to continue forward.. by the way.I love to dive cave and wrecks..always staying as safe as possible and fully aware of what's going on.
Thanx,
Tadpole
Your instructor can reissue your card, or cut you an intro card that's good for a lifetime if they choose to, from my understanding. My instructor made me aware of this before I gave him $$$ for the class (that it expires).

I don't think I've ever seen an "official" statement on why the card expires, but intro divers in doubles don't have a great track record, where as historically, intro divers in a single, do.....plus, let's face it, we both know after a few dives, you start wanting to do the grand traverse, see the bone room, head down the hill 400, and the list goes on.....at least I know I'm starting to wonder "what's over there", and will take my apprentice well before the 18 months are up :)

[packman]

It's my understanding that, after 18 months, the basic cave reverts to intro. So you still maintain your cave certification, but you become limited to single cylinders instead of doubles. I don't believe there is an expiration beyond that, however...you can continue at the intro level forever, if you want.

Apprentice has an expiration, too, FTR.

[DiveBandit]

Has the NSS-CDS ever come out with anything official about this. I've been seeing people with new cards that have exp. dates, and the ones that did their basic further back are wondering (and pissed) if they are still certified??

I'm not a NSS-CDS instructor (yet) but i'm starting to get questions about it none the less...

[battles2a5]

It is my understanding that the older cards will be grandfathered in. I think the jist of this thing is that a "basic" trained cave diver is not really a good term. It is really intro with doubles. Basic assumes you have all the skills needed for "basic" cave diving but you don't. You have intro skills with 260cf of gas on your back. Prior to the Basic cert, an "intro" diver in doubles could be issued a 12 month probationary Apprentice card so they could practice in doubles. You could use doubles if you intended to move forward with training and the 12 mo. probationary period let you hone the skills you learned prior to moving forward to Apprentice/ Full. Apprentice expires in 12 months for the same reason. So really, they are just adding back the timeline that should have been there in the first place. It all makes perfect sense to me.

[John_B]

It is my understanding that the older cards will be grandfathered in. I think the jist of this thing is that a "basic" trained cave diver is not really a good term. It is really intro with doubles. Basic assumes you have all the skills needed for "basic" cave diving but you don't. You have intro skills with 260cf of gas on your back. Prior to the Basic cert, an "intro" diver in doubles could be issued a 12 month probationary Apprentice card so they could practice in doubles. You could use doubles if you intended to move forward with training and the 12 mo. probationary period let you hone the skills you learned prior to moving forward to Apprentice/ Full. Apprentice expires in 12 months for the same reason. So really, they are just adding back the timeline that should have been there in the first place. It all makes perfect sense to me.
I still don't "get" this. Why is it bad to be doing 1/6th dives with 260cf of gas? Unless that they just don't trust you to follow your training and stick to the limits you agreed to. Why is less gas in an overhead considered a "good thing" for a diver new to that environment? If its a penetration limit, then just make it a penetration limit vs. an available gas limit.

Please don't take this as a criticism directed at Ryan or anyone else. I'm just genuinely at a loss to understand this.

[DA Aquamaster]

I still don't "get" this. Why is it bad to be doing 1/6th dives with 260cf of gas? Unless that they just don't trust you to follow your training and stick to the limits you agreed to. That is a big part of it. 260 cu ft is a lot of gas and can get you farther into the system than your level of training was designed for. If you give a diver the gas, he or she will eventually decide to use it to extend penetration once their comfort level increases, so the idea behind the 1/3rd singles or 1/6th doubles with a time limit rule is to keep you from getting in over your head at that level.

I should add there is some terminology confusion between the NSS-CDS Basic Cave cert and the NACD Intro Cave cert. They are different terms but are for all practical purposes the same level.

Intro level diving (under whatever name) is really about staying on the gold line and limiting penetration, and consequently avoiding any complex navigation and situations deeper in the cave where the potential to get into trouble that you cannot get yourself out of is too great.

Its just my opinon, but I think it is much like wet suit diving - there are those who pee in them and those who lie about it. Similarly, after a certain point in time post training - a year is probably as good a guess as any - there are into level divers who have made the occasional jump or traverse, exceeded 1/6ths in doubles, or otherwise bent the cert limits and then there are those who lie about never having done it.

With regards to a card that allows the use of doubles at the Intro level, it makes a lot more sense to regard it as a training status like Apprentice that is designed to expire rather than as a permanent certification level. The differences between agencies become issues of 12 versus 18 months.

[DiveBandit]

DA- I agree with you, Although I think putting exp dates on Basic and intro cards is another attempt at legislating common sense, which never works out nearly as well as we'd like.

[battles2a5]

DA- I agree with you, Although I think putting exp dates on Basic and intro cards is another attempt at legislating common sense, which never works out nearly as well as we'd like.

Much better to have our own community do it than the government.

[packman]

After getting some dives under your belt and gaining a comfort level within the caves, the desire to push beyond your training becomes almost irresistible.

[DiveBandit]

What I'm saying is that if a diver is going to exceed his limits as a cave diver, do you really think he's going to pay any attention to an Exp. date on the back of the card he holds. Probably not.

Making the problem worse is that since 95% of the caves out there do not have anybody checking cards before allowing divers in, you've created a rule that can't be enforced 95% of the time. The only people that an exp date helps is the certifying agencies, it helps them CYA.

The only way to truely prevent this is to eliminate basic and intro and have people go from cavern to apprentice. Why even temp somebody with basic or intro. If they did that you might still have people diving at the apprentice level after they expire, but you'd have a whole lot less half trained cave divers doing full cave dives. Of course, due to politics and the loss of revenue, I doubt you'll ever see this happen.

[eandiver]

due to politics and the loss of revenue, I doubt you'll ever see this happen.

I agree.

[battles2a5]

You have the same problem with Apprentice. The card expires. A an apprentice cave diver is no better prepared to do a circuit than an intro diver. If the system were perfect, we wouldn't need cards, cops, or anything else, people would just follow the rules. But we live in an imperfect world and the organization is addressing what they have identified as an issue. It puts pressure on people to finish their training which in my opinion in a good thing.

In general, I think we need to separate certification from entitlement. A basic card does not mean you are fully qualified to dive any system to 1/6s, but that is the upper limit. Just like a full cave card doesn't make you qualified to dive circuits to 1/3s in any system. You have to build skills and progress to that level. Expiring cards forces instructor interaction and allows those instructors (the good ones anyway) to ensure those skills are being refined, limits are respected, and healthy attitudes towards cave diving are developing. Personally, I think a full cave card should be probationary until you get your Abe/Wakulla award.

[DA Aquamaster]

The only way to truely prevent this is to eliminate basic and intro and have people go from cavern to apprentice. Why even temp somebody with basic or intro. If they did that you might still have people diving at the apprentice level after they expire, but you'd have a whole lot less half trained cave divers doing full cave dives. Of course, due to politics and the loss of revenue, I doubt you'll ever see this happen.Way back in the day that was pretty much how it worked. The cave course required 21 dives fom basically zero to full cave. That required both the students and instructor to be available for 11 days if they limited it to 2 dives per day, or more reasonably two full weeks, or more realistically a few dives here and there over a month or two.

Now, you essentially have 2 days and 4 dives for Cavern, 2 days and 4 dives for Intro and then 4 days and 8 dives for Full Cave that can be slpit into two parts with the Apprentice level in between. So now you can get from zero to Full Cave in basically 16 dives and you could do it on one 2 week shot, but not many people do it that way nor do many instructors recommend it.

There is a great deal of benefit I think in taking it in two parts - four days for Cavern and Intro followed by four days for Full Cave a little later when the diver is ready to proceed. That allows the diver some time to absorb what was learned, practice the skills and get experience in caves under controlled circumstances (assuming they stay within the Intro limits). That puts them in a much better position to actually learn something new in the Full Cave course isntead of just being over loaded with new skills and experiences.

Given the choice of having new cave divers who got to Full Cave in 2 weeks and 16 dives or in two parts of a year with the same 16 training dives and perhaps 20-50 dives in between the two course segments, I'd choose the latter.

More importantly, any newly minted Cave diver needs to understand that having a Full Cave cert is just a license to continue learning - it does not mean you know it all nor does it mean you have all the skills and experience that may be required in some of the more challenging situations you could put yourself into if you do not dive the cert conservatively. In my opinion, the odds of a diver recognizing that are better after splitting the training into 2 segments with some experience in the middle.

You could argue that Intro should be time limited and I think that makes sense. For the most part I think that most Intro divers regard it as a temporary condition, but I am not sure that is the case with as many GUE Cave 1 divers and it would make sense to have consistency between agencies.